The History of Transforming Robots! (abridged)

[The Lizard]

Originally Posted by sto_vo_kor_2000

It could be that none of those were ment to be "Transforming" robots.

It could be that the ships are either "armor" for the robots or vehicles for them to ride or use.

Either way I was hopeing I could finally find some concrete answers.

Are these art prints yours? If so, where did you get them?

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Originally Posted by The Lizard

Are these art prints yours? If so, where did you get them?

No they dont.I found them on an other messege boards and the guy who posted them said he got them in a trade.

He was trying to find some info on them.

[The Lizard]

^This one is the toughest painting of the bunch for me to pin down. There's just too much going on from possible different sources. The jet-shaped head in the robot and alt mode is like a late-'70s super-robot or even an early '80s live-action Super Sentai robot. The huge shoulders are definitely late-'80s anime style, while the legs sort of look like something out of Mospeada (3rd Gen Robotech), as seen below...


But there's not really any "smoking gun" I can find with that painting that's a single obvious design source.

So when all is said and done, I'm afraid I can't state for sure the origin and purpose of those robot paintings.

However, I will offer a couple final opinions about what those paintings are NOT...

They are NOT unused Takara designs for the Transformers line. Reasons:

1. Assuming the Takara dates stamped on the back are legit, Takara would not have been custom-designing robots for Hasbro's TF line in March of 1985. There were still plenty of pre-existing Diaclone and MicroChange designs being used that year.
2. The alt modes in the paintings are all futuristic, non-realistic looking vehicles. In early 1985, the Transformers vehicle modes were still mostly based on normal earth machines (not counting the Dinobots and Insecticons of course). TF: The movie was still far enough away that there would have been no demand for Cybertronian or futuristic alt modes at that point.
3. The alt vehicle modes in the paintings also have a definite 1970s aesthetic to them that doesn't fit in with the 1980s-style Takara Transformers designs. The heads of the robots shaped like entire jet planes is the type of thing seen on gigantic 150 foot-tall super-robots, not 30 foot-tall Transformers. Plus, a couple of the alt-modes look too simplistic to be Transformer designs, particularly the "Daimos" truck (more on that one later).
4. Finally, the particular elements of a couple of those paintings that seem swiped from 1970s robots would have already been seen in the US in 1985, in the form of Bandai's Godaikin line, which had been on US toy shelves since 1983.

They are NOT designs for Takara robot toys that were going to be released in Japan in 1985. Reasons:

1. My main argument centers on this particular painting:


That basic robot form and particularly the vehicle form are totally recognizable as Daimos...

Daimos truck design and anime scene

There's simply no way that Takara could get away with a licensed design that looked so much like a well-known and unique vehicle from a pre-existing series. Not only in Japan is that true, but also in the US, where Daimos had been imported by Bandai/Popy as both a Shogun Warrior in 1979 and a Godaikin in 1983. Americans would have been fooled by the minor design changes of course, but not the Japanese. I don't think Bandai would have let Takara use such a similar design in either country.

2. The "mixing and matching" in those paintings that would fool Americans would not fool the Japanese. I could see a smaller, unknown company borrowing designs like that, or certainly a Chinese company, but not Takara. Aside from the likelyhood of being busted for it, there were plenty of original robot concepts around in 1985 Japan so that swiping designs wasn't even necessary.


So, taking all that into account, I have to say that I'm inclined to stick with my original position on those paintings. I think they are clever, fan-made (or unauthorized bootleg) designs stamped with a bogus Takara copyright just to excite discussion among American Transformers fans. They weren't produced in 1985, based on the designs used, so I'd say someone whipped them up during the 1990s or later.

That's my Japanese robot-geek's opinion, anyway.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Originally Posted by The Lizard

But there's not really any "smoking gun" I can find with that painting that's a single obvious design source.

So when all is said and done, I'm afraid I can't state for sure the origin and purpose of those robot paintings.

Thanks for the try bud.

Originally Posted by The Lizard

However, I will offer a couple final opinions about what those paintings are NOT...

They are NOT unused Takara designs for the Transformers line.

I knew that....with out trying to sound like a prick...theres very little I dont know about Transformers.

Originally Posted by The Lizard

Reasons:2. The alt modes in the paintings are all futuristic, non-realistic looking vehicles. In early 1985, the Transformers vehicle modes were still mostly based on normal earth machines (not counting the Dinobots and Insecticons of course)

Your forgetting about the "Jumpstarters".

Originally Posted by The Lizard

They are NOT designs for Takara robot toys that were going to be released in Japan in 1985. Reasons:

1. My main argument centers on this particular painting:


That basic robot form and particularly the vehicle form are totally recognizable as Daimos...

Daimos truck design and anime scene

There's simply no way that Takara could get away with a licensed design that looked so much like a well-known and unique vehicle from a pre-existing series. Not only in Japan is that true, but also in the US, where Daimos had been imported by Bandai/Popy as both a Shogun Warrior in 1979 and a Godaikin in 1983. Americans would have been fooled by the minor design changes of course, but not the Japanese. I don't think Bandai would have let Takara use such a similar design in either country.

That one I'm not so sure about.

Its one of my guesses that the painting may have been part of a presentation for selling the design and likeness to Takara.

Originally Posted by The Lizard

That's my Japanese robot-geek's opinion, anyway.

Again thanks.

[The Lizard]

Originally Posted by sto_vo_kor_2000

I knew that....with out trying to sound like a prick...theres very little I dont know about Transformers.

I knew there was something I liked about you.

Your forgetting about the "Jumpstarters".

True, and I also neglected to mention Shockwave, who had a futuristic design as well. But the Jumpstarters (being 1983 Diaclone toys) and Shockwave were already-existing toys before they were Transformers. I was just making the point that there was no reason for Takara to be pitching new futuristic alt-form designs to Hasbro in early '85, but you already know that.

That one I'm not so sure about.
Its one of my guesses that the painting may have been part of a presentation for selling the design and likeness to Takara.

Well, remember that Bandai aggressively scooped up the toy rights to various anime robot designs from companies that went under in the early '80s like Takatoku and Clover. Also taking into account the fact that Bandai's chogokin series was still competing directly with Takara on several fronts (including the US), in 1985, I can't see them collaborating with Takara to give up a piece of the giant robot pie.


The guy who has that artwork should contact Takara/Tomy, show them the artwork and ask them directly. That's probably the only way we can find out for sure.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Originally Posted by The Lizard

I knew there was something I liked about you.

Why thank you.

Originally Posted by The Lizard

Well, remember that Bandai aggressively scooped up the toy rights to various anime robot designs from companies that went under in the early '80s like Takatoku and Clover. Also taking into account the fact that Bandai's chogokin series was still competing directly with Takara on several fronts (including the US), in 1985, I can't see them collaborating with Takara to give up a piece of the giant robot pie.

This is true....but it didnt stop some of those toy companies [that went under] from trying to sell its product to Takara and Hasbro.

Look at Jetfire.First owned by a company that went under and bought up by Bandi.

But before Bandi picked them up Hasbro bought the rights to produce and market its likeness in the U.S. and some markets abroad.

Now some of the "Jetfires" released by Hasbro were re-paints/repacks of existing back stock bought from Takatoku but many were newly produced figures made useing the mold.

Do you know who produced those figures for Hasbro?????

Takara did.

Not only that but Hasbro had Takara partisipate in the redesining of "Skyfire".

So it wouldnt shock me if one of those companies [who may have still owned some of the rights] tried to sell its product to Hasbro and Hasbro had Takara designers make those painting as a selling tool.

Originally Posted by The Lizard

The guy who has that artwork should contact Takara/Tomy, show them the artwork and ask them directly. That's probably the only way we can find out for sure.

I think I suggested that once.

[The Lizard]

Originally Posted by sto_vo_kor_2000

Now some of the "Jetfires" released by Hasbro were re-paints/repacks of existing back stock bought from Takatoku but many were newly produced figures made useing the mold.

Do you know who produced those figures for Hasbro?????

Takara did.

Really? I thought that only Bandai produced the G1 "Macross" Jetfire after the Takatoku/Matsushiro stock ran out. If Takara made any Jetfires in thier factory for Hasbro, did they put their manufacturers' stamp on it? I've seen a LOT of G1 Jetfires, and I've never seen one that says "Takara" on it, just the usual variations with Bandai and Matsushiro

Not only that but Hasbro had Takara partisipate in the redesining of "Skyfire".

Yup, since the very existence of the "Skyfire" cartoon character was the result of a compromise with Takara to keep a competitor's (Takatoku/Bandai) toy design out of the cartoon.

So it wouldnt shock me if one of those companies [who may have still owned some of the rights] tried to sell its product to Hasbro and Hasbro had Takara designers make those painting as a selling tool.

The thing is, Bandai still had the total rights to Daimos (and Dangard Ace, etc), and Bandai wasn't in trouble like Takatoku and needing to sell off designs. Even if we overlook the fact that those robot and alt-mode designs are weird mix-ups and deviations from the Transformers concepts of 1985, why would Takara be tasked with creating concept designs for Hasbro based on robot designs they didn't own? Remember that Skyfire looked nothing like the Jetfire toy, but those robot paintings still resemble their design sources.

I think this is one of those cases where Occam's Razor applies (ie: the simplest solution is the most likely). If the guy who owns that artwork hasn't attempted to get an answer from Takara to clear up the issue, there's probably a reason, and that reason might be that it's fan-art or bootleg art.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Originally Posted by The Lizard

Really? I thought that only Bandai produced the G1 "Macross" Jetfire after the Takatoku/Matsushiro stock ran out. If Takara made any Jetfires in thier factory for Hasbro, did they put their manufacturers' stamp on it? I've seen a LOT of G1 Jetfires, and I've never seen one that says "Takara" on it, just the usual variations with Bandai and Matsushiro .

Yes it did.

I've seen a rare few over the years.

A friend owned one and I saw at leat 2 at different TF conventions I've attended.

I'm not sure how many were made or for what market they were made for, U.S. or international, but I have seen them.

I had a pic of one on my pc once....I'll see if I can dig it up.

Originally Posted by The Lizard

The thing is, Bandai still had the total rights to Daimos (and Dangard Ace, etc), and Bandai wasn't in trouble like Takatoku and needing to sell off designs.

Did Bandi "OWN" the product at the time or was it under licensing?

Because if it was under licensing I could see how the concepts were being shopped around for a new buyer.

Originally Posted by The Lizard

Even if we overlook the fact that those robot and alt-mode designs are weird mix-ups and deviations from the Transformers concepts of 1985, why would Takara be tasked with creating concept designs for Hasbro based on robot designs they didn't own?

A Hasbro exc that may have been considering buying the rights to those robots may have commissioned someone at Takara to have them made as a tool to show his bosses.

Originally Posted by The Lizard

Remember that Skyfire looked nothing like the Jetfire toy, but those robot paintings still resemble their design sources.

But that was done by intent.It was so the character could be seen on Japan tv.

Originally Posted by The Lizard

I think this is one of those cases where Occam's Razor applies (ie: the simplest solution is the most likely).

That may be.

Originally Posted by The Lizard

If the guy who owns that artwork hasn't attempted to get an answer from Takara to clear up the issue, there's probably a reason, and that reason might be that it's fan-art or bootleg art.

Or that he's unawer of how to contact Takara.

Truth be told I dont.

[The Lizard]

Originally Posted by sto_vo_kor_2000

Yes it did.

I've seen a rare few over the years.

Cool. A Valkyrie with a Takara manufacturer's stamp would be quite a collectible to own. Please post pics if you find them.

Because if it was under licensing I could see how the concepts were being shopped around for a new buyer.
...
A Hasbro exc that may have been considering buying the rights to those robots may have commissioned someone at Takara to have them made as a tool to show his bosses.

If the art turns out to be legit, that last suggestion would seem the most likely. It's still really weird the way that pre-existing design elements of certain late '70s, early '80s and mid/late '80s robots are mixed in three of those art pieces though. I could see Hasbro artists doing that, but it seems like an odd way for a Japanese company like Takara to present product. - Particularly product so similar to stuff Bandai was already selling in the US.

Or that he's unawer of how to contact Takara.

Truth be told I dont.

Takara/Tomy actually has a Transformers comment blog on their site (in Japanese of course), where one can post pics. If it hasn't already been tried, someone should post the artwork on the Takara blog and ask if anyone knows about it. I know enough Japanese to ask a few basic questions, so I'd be happy to do it with permission. Link to blog:
http://www.c-player.com/ac39907/message

[The Lizard]

OK, time to wrap this up!

XIII. Global Robotic Revolution

The nostalgia for classic giant robots that firmly took hold in Japan in the late 1990s continued unabated into the 21st century with anime series and OVAs updating '70s classics like Mazinkaiser (2001), New Getter Robo (2004) and the CGI-enhanced Reideen (2007). 1980s toy favorites like Zoids (1999-2005) and Armored Trooper VOTOMS (2007) also made a comeback. The light-hearted King of Braves, GaoGaiGar Final OVA series (2000-2003) brought back the final entry in the "Brave" series of transforming robot TV anime from the '90s.


New Getter Robo (2004) and Reideen (2007)

While there were still anime and toy lines following the mystical Evangelion formula, classic super-robot elements were added, as seen in the series RahXephon (2002) and Demonbane (2006). The popularity of the super-robot genre would increase even more with the release of Gurren Lagann (2007), an often-comedic anime series featuring extreme robot designs and satirical over-the-top action.


Gurran Lagan diecast toy by Bandai, 2007

The Macross series also continued to be updated, with the prequel OVA Macross Zero (2002-2004) and the sequel TV series Macross Frontier (2008). Unfortunately, the distrubution of the Macross series and toys in the US has had problems due to US company Harmony Gold (producers of Robotech) holding international rights to the Macross robots and storylines. Highly detailed Macross toys made by Japanese collector toy company Yamato could not be imported to the US, so American company Toynami bought the rights and have sold the "masterpiece series" of Robotech mecha from Macross and Mospeada, much to the delight of collectors. Both Toynami and Yamato have gone on to produce many detailed upgrades of classic '80s transforming robots as well.


Toynami Robotech Alpha and Beta (2008) and Yamato Megazone 23 Garland (2007)

The collectors' market is the target of several other robot toy lines that have popped up in Japan within recent years. Japanese model company Kaiyodo introduced the "Revoltech" series of toys in 2006, featuring non-transforming but highly poseable action figures of such beloved robots as Tetsujin 28, Dougram, and even Optimus Prime and Megatron. On a related note, Takara merged with Tomy, another well-known Japanese toy company (and creators of other classic robot toy lines like Zoids), in 2005 to become "TakaraTomy". Since Tomy is the recognizable brand name outside of Japan, TakaraTomy just goes by "Tomy" in the US.


A selection of Kaiyodo's "Revoltech" super-poseable figures

After the success of the 2007 Transformers film, the new Transformers Animated cartoon series premiered on Cartoon Network in December of that year. An updated storyline unrelated to any previous cartoon or film, and heavily stylized artwork were introduced for the new animated series. The characters were designed by Hasbro and Cartoon Network, and the 2008 toy adaptations created by TakaraTomy have increased the articulation of the robot modes yet again.


Transformers Animated cartoon and toys (2008)

Now directly-imported Japanese TV shows and OVAs are quickly and easily accesable in many countries. The internet brings instant news updates of new transforming robot toys, online import stores to order from and streaming video of the latest anime. It's now easier than ever to enjoy cutting edge robot designs. The simultaneous popularity of "old school" versions, stylized animation versions, and updated live-action versions of Japanese transforming robots guarantees a large variety of fun TV shows, movies, games and toy products for years to come.






The end! Woo-hoo!

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Originally Posted by The Lizard

Cool. A Valkyrie with a Takara manufacturer's stamp would be quite a collectible to own. Please post pics if you find them.

I will if I find them.

If I remember correctly they said Takara/hasbro or the other way around.

Bear in mind I dont discount the possibility that they were faked...I have only seen about 3 or 4 in my life time.

Originally Posted by The Lizard

If the art turns out to be legit, that last suggestion would seem the most likely. It's still really weird the way that pre-existing design elements of certain late '70s, early '80s and mid/late '80s robots are mixed in three of those art pieces though. I could see Hasbro artists doing that, but it seems like an odd way for a Japanese company like Takara to present product. - Particularly product so similar to stuff Bandai was already selling in the US.

Well I'm thinking Takara made them under contract for Hasbro....so it wouldnt have been Takara presenting presenting the product.

Originally Posted by The Lizard

Takara/Tomy actually has a Transformers comment blog on their site (in Japanese of course), where one can post pics. If it hasn't already been tried, someone should post the artwork on the Takara blog and ask if anyone knows about it. I know enough Japanese to ask a few basic questions, so I'd be happy to do it with permission. Link to blog:
http://www.c-player.com/ac39907/message

Please do if you get the chance.

And your continued work on this thread is great.

[The Lizard]

2009 marks the 30th anniversary of the groundbreaking anime series Mobile Suit Gundam, so those wacky Japanese will be building a 60 foot tall fiberglass Gundam statue at Tokyo's Odaiba island in July.



CGI simulation of completed Gundam statue

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Originally Posted by The Lizard

2009 marks the 30th anniversary of the groundbreaking anime series Mobile Suit Gundam, so those wacky Japanese will be building a 60 foot tall fiberglass Gundam statue at Tokyo's Odaiba island in July.



CGI simulation of completed Gundam statue

Kool

[gkokujin]

DYNAMO


BATTLE


TURN!!!!!



this is the BEST thread EVER!!!

[Avangarde]

Yes it is pretty good, I'd almost recommend it for some sort of SSH award for when the time comes for the hype awards.

[The Lizard]

Since today is the first day of spring, and the general timeframe for the first shipments of Transformers toys to US toy stores was spring 1984, I'll just take this opportunity to say...

Happy 25th Anniversary to "The Transformers"!!!

[Avangarde]

Happy Birthday Transformers

[gkokujin]

Hey Lizard,


can you give any backstory as to how Robotech characters got licensed to be sold as GoBots?

I remember building Cy-kill from a model of Lancer.

[The Lizard]

Originally Posted by gkokujin

Hey Lizard,


can you give any backstory as to how Robotech characters got licensed to be sold as GoBots?

I remember building Cy-kill from a model of Lancer.

I'm sorry - I just saw this post today -- i wasn't ignoring you.

The few GoBots model kits released by Monogram in 1985 were mostly kit versions of a few of Bandai's existing Machine Robo robots. These were smaller-sized model kits of GoBots such as "Spay-C".


However, Monogram wanted to release some larger-sized models as part of their GoBots series as well, presumably to present something similar to the "Super GoBots" toys. However, there were no large-size Machine Robo models available, so Monogram bought the rights to a couple of transforming model kits made in Japan by Imai and based on the mecha from the anime series Mospeada (later known as 3rd generation Robotech in the US). Since these kits transformed into a jet and a motorcycle, it must have seemed an easy idea to claim them as the GoBots "Leader 1" and "Cy-Kill".

Of course, these models looked nothing like the actual GoBots characters, and they were MUCH more complicated to build than the other simplistic GoBots kits. Finding these kits was a treat for Robotech fans however, as there were no other model kits from Mospeada licensed to sell in the US at that time.


Monogram "Leader-1" GoBots model
Originally the Mospeada Legioss AFC-01I variable fighter
Robotech name: Rook Bartley's Alpha Veritech (red)


Monogram "Cy-Kill" GoBots model
Originally the Mospeada VR41H Ride Armor Blowsuperior (Yellow Belmont type)
Robotech name: Veritech Cyclone VR41H (Lancer, AKA: Yellow Dancer)

[The Lizard]

Bumped for awesome completed Gundam statue in Japan, and for upcoming TF movie

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Nice

[The Lizard]

gotta love that SHH lag

[The Lizard]

Well, 2009 is almost at an end, so the 25th anniversary of the Transformers comes to a close. Here's a few noteworthy items we saw this year...


Leader Class Optimus Prime and Human Alliance Bumblebee, two of the most complex, highly-detailed toys from the "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen" series.



Japanese Masterpiece edition Grimlock. Coming to US stores in 2010.



Macross SDF-1 large scale transforming toy by Yamato



2009 Japanese TV anime series Rideback

[Dave McFly]

Originally Posted by The Lizard

Leader Class Optimus Prime and Human Alliance Bumblebee, two of the most complex, highly-detailed toys from the "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen" series.
Have em both, one of the BEST Prime figures ever, next to the 20th anniversary one that I also have.


Japanese Masterpiece edition Grimlock. Coming to US stores in 2010.
WANT!

it just amazes me how much Transformers has evolved. I put my 1984 G1 Prime next to my 20th anniversary (the 2004 one in G1 colors, not the 2006 in cartoon colors with no chrome) and my leader class prime from TF:ROTF and it just blows my mind

[The Lizard]

^ I must admit that the leader-class ROTF Prime toy really changed my attitude towards the movie TF toy designs. I still don't like how a lot of them were handled (notably Devastator, Starscream, Arcee and Jetfire), but the movie Autobot deluxe toys are truly a big step forward in TF detail and transformation mechanics.