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Old 11-14-2016, 05:57 PM   #76
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

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Fine, confront and demonize people who are actively commiting hate crimes, but if you think that is all Trump supporters and want to paint them all with the same brush, be prepared for more things like Trump.

Moral smugness is luxary left wingers cannot afford anymore, its time for a real battle of ideas, where people listen to each other and exchange viewpoints. Trump's ideas can be challenged, but say the other side has no right to debate, means you lose the debate.
Dude. You probably don't know but I'm typically the one attacked on here by those with those extreme beliefs for falling in line with the teachings of MLK. And try to wake people up that Trump supporters aren't all bad but rather many are victims that were preyed on by Trump in the exact same methods as the KKK, Nazis and Cult leaders do. His supporters many of them were duped and taken advantage of because he preyed on their insecurities and vulnerabilities and like those white extremist groups blamed the exact same minorities for being the reason why. Trump victimized almost everyone.

Us ignoring what was going on and how vulnerable people were feeling is what gave rise to Trump.

I will admit to Independent smugness though because I always saw that infighting, not how bad things have gotten sociologically - but on a political level, and went "those crazy democrats and Republicans." I tried for years to tell people that that wouldn't continue to work and few believed me. I hate being right and wish I was wrong and I only thought something big would happen politically with that not on a very humanitarian level like it has. So I will say I did carry independent smugness, but of both parties.

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Old 11-14-2016, 06:58 PM   #77
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

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Fine, confront and demonize people who are actively commiting hate crimes, but if you think that is all Trump supporters and want to paint them all with the same brush, be prepared for more things like Trump.

Moral smugness is luxary left wingers cannot afford anymore, its time for a real battle of ideas, where people listen to each other and exchange viewpoints. Trump's ideas can be challenged, but say the other side has no right to debate, means you lose the debate.
All Trump supporters supported racism and bigotry and Islamophobia and sexual deviancy when they cast a vote for Trump. Those that voted for him are either indifferent about those things or they outright support those things.

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Old 11-14-2016, 07:31 PM   #78
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

When it comes down to it, it could be argued that by ignoring some of the things that the Clintons have said and done, you're doing the same thing by voting for Hillary. Sexual deviancy? Bill has had women accuse him of rape and Hillary accused of protecting him and threatening his accusers into silence. If you're going to acknowledge the accusations against Trump, you have to acknowledge those accusations too, and if you ignore them because it makes your candidate of choice look bad, then you're no better than Trump supporters.

The only way to win the fight against Trump is to support a candidate who we can say is a decent human being, not a lesser of two evils.

I know it's not popular to be a liberal/Democrat and to say anything negative about Hillary right now, seeing all the blame people who voted 3rd party took for costing Hillary the election.


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Old 11-14-2016, 07:39 PM   #79
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

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All Trump supporters supported racism and bigotry and Islamophobia and sexual deviancy when they cast a vote for Trump. Those that voted for him are either indifferent about those things or they outright support those things.
Well what do you suggest we do about them, just hope they go away? The people who voted for Trump are not going anywhere.

I think someone better then Clinton could have made good economic arguments that would kept his soft supporters out of his camp, but she was a bad candidate and he made better economic arguments to rural working class voters by default.

Ignore Trump's soft supporters at your political peril. Constantly moralizing doesn't win elections, actual policy discussion does.

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Old 11-14-2016, 07:49 PM   #80
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

Do any of these names brought up have any skeletons?

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Old 11-14-2016, 07:54 PM   #81
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

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Well what do you suggest we do about them, just hope they go away? The people who voted for Trump are not going anywhere.

I think someone better then Clinton could have made good economic arguments that would kept his soft supporters out of his camp, but she was a bad candidate and he made better economic arguments to rural working class voters by default.

Ignore Trump's soft supporters at your political peril. Constantly moralizing doesn't win elections, actual policy discussion does.
Totally disagree, (though I would love to) And so does both the Obama Campaign and Trump Campaign.....

Big ideas with no substance wins elections in today's political climate.

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Old 11-14-2016, 08:27 PM   #82
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All Trump supporters supported racism and bigotry and Islamophobia and sexual deviancy when they cast a vote for Trump. Those that voted for him are either indifferent about those things or they outright support those things.
I dislike Trump as much as the next guy, but you really don't know what you are talking about when you call all Trump supporters racists and bigots.

Take Kenosha County Wisconsin for example who voted Republican for the first time in over forty years:

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Kenosha, south of Milwaukee and north of the Chicago suburbs where Hillary Clinton was raised, was telling of the threat that sneaked up on Democrats. The industrial economy had been replaced by tourism, but the county was growing. No one would have picked it for a travelogue of trade-racked America. And it had voted for Democrats. It voted for Barack Obama, twice. It voted against George W. Bush, twice, and for Bill Clinton, twice. It helped Michael Dukakis carry the state in 1988 and, four years earlier, gave Walter Mondale a five-percentage-point victory over Ronald Reagan. No Democrat had lost since 1972.

Hillary Clinton lost it; in retrospect, the trend was obvious. In her 2008 loss to Barack Obama, Clinton lost Kenosha County by just three points, as she lost by 18 points statewide. In the 2016 Democratic primaries, Clinton lost the county to Sen. Bernie Sanders by 15 points — despite a closer result across the state. She carried heavily black Milwaukee County, and Sanders carried everything else. “White working-class people are deserting the Democratic Party in droves,” Sanders said in an interview Thursday.


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Old 11-14-2016, 08:50 PM   #83
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

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“White working-class people are deserting the Democratic Party in droves,” Sanders said in an interview Thursday.
I was fuming at Sanders for his tweet saying the same thing earlier today. The Democratic party used the last eight years to even the playing field and focus on issues that were important to minorities - nothing that negatively affected the white working class at all.

What the hell kind of message does it send to minorities when you have people saying crap like "You stopped focusing on the white working class citizens." When are we going to the point where we stop coddling these people? What are us minorities suppose to do? Just grin and bear it and bow down and be quiet?

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Old 11-14-2016, 09:12 PM   #84
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I was fuming at Sanders for his tweet saying the same thing earlier today. The Democratic party used the last eight years to even the playing field and focus on issues that were important to minorities - nothing that negatively affected the white working class at all.

What the hell kind of message does it send to minorities when you have people saying crap like "You stopped focusing on the white working class citizens." When are we going to the point where we stop coddling these people? What are us minorities suppose to do? Just grin and bear it and bow down and be quiet?
There is an obvious difference. White working class wasn't paid attention to. A lot of people were losing jobs and seeing the poor get poorer and the rich get richer. That's not saying one at the expense of another. But both centered and forgotten towns need to be focused on. It's not an absolute.

You might not SEE it personally, but there are communities where yes whites are struggling to put food on the table as well for their families. Those towns and communities were being ignored. That's what led us here. They were victimized and Trump saw their vulnerabilities and preyed on them. Many of those towns, naturally, have minorities in them as well who would benefit from improving those areas.

Both can see progress at the same time when accurate attention is paid to ALL.

Although to be accurate he should have truly just said "working class" because that is largely what's being ignored.

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Old 11-14-2016, 09:23 PM   #85
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

I also think another issue is that these people in those town don't understand that the jobs that were there are NEVER coming back. Steel mills are not coming back, Iron mills are not coming back, coal is not coming back - all of this stuff is handled by machines now. These people are uneducated or only have a limited skill set.

So, when do we get to the point where we say if these people are choosing not to progress with society and make the changes they need to find jobs (you know the same thing these people have been telling minorities for years) that we have to move on and leave them behind. That's a harsh thing to say but it's a reality of our current situation, no?

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Old 11-14-2016, 09:40 PM   #86
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

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I dislike Trump as much as the next guy, but you really don't know what you are talking about when you call all Trump supporters racists and bigots.

Take Kenosha County Wisconsin for example who voted Republican for the first time in over forty years:
Attributing quotes is nice.

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Old 11-14-2016, 09:43 PM   #87
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There can be a lot done to improve the conditions in those places. The economy is dwindling in those places, the buildings and towns are falling apart. And they're all over the country. Even Buffalo, great.world fair Buffalo looks like a ghost town these days. There are under funded areas while the cities seem to be getting all to most of the development and flourishing. It's not that they can't get other jobs, it's that the areas can't sustain jobs and continue to build so a lot have to move away from home because the opportunities that used to be there in all sectors aren't anymore. The money is going to the rich elite and it's going to city funding leaving those towns to die. And yeah it pisses a lot of people off. It's part of the reason I'm surprised Trump won because traditionally he represents evil. Big Wallstreet city man while the world's burning. However he found a way of getting around being the 1% villain through rhetoric.

Your view on what these areas are, what they used to be, and what they can become is very very narrowminded. Bigotry also in how you are choosing to view those areas. Democrats have done absolutely crap to help those areas out. They're stuck there while some get to move away watching cities grow stronger and feeling left behind because there's diminishing opportunities in all sectors there.

So, can I understand where a lot of these people are coming from? Yeah. I've seen a lot of falling apart areas and my home town is far from the worst off. Far from it. Drive thirty minutes away and some schools are barely even funded and have difficult getting the barest minimum of supplies. Schools.

So have the democrats been driving people away? Hell yeah. Especially millenials trapped in an ever increasing number of broken down towns that are becoming more common day by day. Many may have voted for Hillary but that's only because the other option was bigoted Trump. Trump didn't win because he was a Republican. He won because he tapped into those fears and insecurities with rhetoric that's been known to work on the vulnerable, especially in those areas.

I'm lucky, I'm upper middle to upper class so I grew up protected. However my Dad was able to carve out a very lucrative business that has reaches around the country. But I do see what it's like because my extended family is trapped. These towns surrounding me... Words aren't justice enough to accurately portray how much they feel like they're dying. Like seeing a living organism on it's last breath. A lot more focus has been given to the big cities while leaving everyone else behind.

2020. I'd bet a crap load of money that neither Republican nor Democrat will win and that it's an independent or a progressive that runs as Democrat like Bernie. As all news articles have pointed out, losing Bernie was a huge mistake. Because a lot of millenials just see classic Democrats and Republicans fighting each other all the time with little to no progress to show for it while the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. It wasn't being a Republican that got it for Trump it's that he made those people feel like he was listening, in a very crooked and scary way yes which I could readily see. But, nobody I talked with in my generation legitimately liked Hillary at all, we just felt like she was forced upon on because the only other option was bigoted Trump who could get through to white people more than minorities since he was spewing alt-right nonsense that has always been proven to work on those feeling victimized.

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Old 11-14-2016, 10:12 PM   #88
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Totally disagree, (though I would love to) And so does both the Obama Campaign and Trump Campaign.....

Big ideas with no substance wins elections in today's political climate.
Fair enough, but I am trying to be optimistic, even though I am naturally cynical and this election has validated my cynical beliefs.

At this point I would like to believe policy matter, but I think l really know that the flashy guy wins.

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Old 11-14-2016, 10:17 PM   #89
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Fair enough, but I am trying to be optimistic, even though I am naturally cynical and this election has validated my cynical beliefs.

At this point I would like to believe policy matter, but I think l really know that the flashy guy wins.
Look up how alt right kkk and nazis recruit people. That is how Trump won. Flashy had some things to do with it, but it was who he was talking to and he knew how to do it. Albeit in a very sick and twisted way. I can't say it hasn't been a proven way that works, for the alt-right, because they've been saying the same things he has to get people into their organizations for years. Trump basically stole and used their recruitment handbook down to the letter. That it was so close to that handbook and that he is the classic picture of what a lot of these towns hate - city Wallstreet man - is what made me shocked that he won since I thought many could see through him. If it was him or Bernie, there's no way I can see Trump winning because Hillary lost since she didn't know what a lot of us wanted to hear. Bernie got through, he knew our insecurities and how to reassure us. Trump knew the same insecurities but how to drive fear mongering.

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Old 11-14-2016, 10:25 PM   #90
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Look up how alt right kkk and nazis recruit people. That is how Trump won. Flashy had some things to do with it, but it was who he was talking to and he knew how to do it. Albeit in a very sick and twisted way. I can't say it hasn't been a proven way that works, for the alt-right, because they've been saying the same things he has to get people into their organizations for years. Trump basically stole and used their recruitment handbook down to the letter. That it was so close to that handbook and that he is the classic picture of what a lot of these towns hate - city Wallstreet man - is what made me shocked that he won since I thought many could see through him.
Maybe I am being cynical, but I do wonder if a flashy Democrat would have beat him. I wonder if people prefer the sizzle to the stake and if Trump wasn't flashy if he would have won?

I dont like being cynical, but damn it, of all belief systems that is the one which usually seems correct. My remainig optimistism is on rather meager threads.

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Old 11-14-2016, 10:29 PM   #91
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Maybe I am being cynical, but I do wonder if a flashy Democrat would have beat him. I wonder if people prefer the sizzle to the stake and if Trump wasn't flashy if he would have won?

I dont like being cynical, but damn it, of all belief systems that is the one which usually seems correct. My remainig optimistism is on rather meager threads.
As said, if you want to understand this election read up on kkk, nazis, and how the alt right thinks and recruits. There are a million parallels between Trump and those groups. Plus, the guy did study Mein Kampf and refer to it a lot during the 90s. So the alt white groups and Trump used the same text as their guide which has successfully brainwashed people since Hitler.

If it was Bernie vs Trump, Bernie would have won no doubt. They both tapped into the same things, just Bernie didn't exploit people's fears like Trump did. Hillary fell on deaf ears because she was more of the same and didn't know what the people were insecure about.

From a political standpoint, it says a lot that 46% of the population did not vote. That a heck of a lot of that were millenials. The same group Bernie was reaching.

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Old 11-14-2016, 10:37 PM   #92
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As said, if you want to understand this election read up on kkk, nazis, and how the alt right thinks and recruits. There are a million parallels between Trump and those groups. Plus, the guy did study Mein Kampf and refer to it a lot during the 90s.

If it was Bernie vs Trump, Bernie would have won no doubt. They both tapped into the same things, just Bernie didn't exploit people's fears like Trump did. Hillary fell on deaf ears because she was more of the same and didn't know what the people were insecure about.
I would agree with that, I think Sanders could have countered Trump's arguments better then Clinton could.

I hope for the best and prepare for the worst. I want think things will work out, but I can prepare for the worst outcomes.

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Old 11-14-2016, 10:38 PM   #93
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Fair enough, but I am trying to be optimistic, even though I am naturally cynical and this election has validated my cynical beliefs.

At this point I would like to believe policy matter, but I think l really know that the flashy guy wins.
While Trump didn't draft specific policies as much as Hillary might have, I would argue that his campaign was more about ideas and agendas (while they lacked specifics) regardless of how you felt about them: Secure the border, change how we fight ISIS (didn't go into specifics) etc. Hillary ran a campaign on don't vote for the other guy, he's terrible and I'm going to do more of the same.

I think if you asked voters what does Hillary want to do as President they wouldn't be able to answer but if you asked anyone what Trump wants to do they could at least say build a wall.

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Old 11-14-2016, 10:42 PM   #94
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While Trump didn't draft specific policies as much as Hillary might have, I would argue that his campaign was more about ideas and agendas (while they lacked specifics) regardless of how you felt about them: Secure the border, change how we fight ISIS (didn't go into specifics) etc. Hillary ran a campaign on don't vote for the other guy, he's terrible and I'm going to do more of the same.
Hillary seemed to talk to those older groups past the millenials who a lot of us got slammed by when we didn't have Bernie to rally behind any more.

Trump, as said he isn't saying anything new. I can't post it but youtube "American History X speech" and compare that against what Trump was saying. There are soooooo many pro Trump comments on that video as well. That movie is mostly why warning bells went off in my head and I didn't take him seriously. Just ignorantly thought a lot.of others would notice that he was speaking like a neo nazi too. And the more research I've done the past couple of days I feel like I'm able to understand a lot better what happened.

I always saw it as a campaign between a nazi and a non-nazi but another corrupt politician who represented more.of the same which never did me any good. There was just no way that I was ever going to vote for a nazi and when it got close and I saw that he could win, that was the only reason I voted at all was that I saw through him thanks to knowing the rhetoric that I could see he posed a legit danger (the offensiveness I was used to - although more over the top, so are many millenials, remember we came of age under American Fries Muslim denouncing Bush - we grew used to a President being like that after 8 years and our first forray for a lot into politics was a single phrase "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" so that too from a President was normalized - to many, Obama was the only normal President we had).

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Old 11-14-2016, 10:46 PM   #95
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While Trump didn't draft specific policies as much as Hillary might have, I would argue that his campaign was more about ideas and agendas (while they lacked specifics) regardless of how you felt about them: Secure the border, change how we fight ISIS (didn't go into specifics) etc. Hillary ran a campaign on don't vote for the other guy, he's terrible and I'm going to do more of the same.
But those are the most vague ideas, they are notions, not policies. He says will bring manufacturing back to America, he says he will defeat ISIS and he says he will build a wall and have Mexico pay for it. How will he do any of this?

Trump did not run on policy, he ran on emotion and poor, uneducated whites bought into the emotional appeal, but there is no substance.

If this is what we consider policy, I can come up with a platform in an hour. "Elect me and America will colonize Mars. How will I do it? Just elect me and found out."


I am sure Clinton had some big policy wonk book, but it likely did nothing to addressed the concerns of poor whites who lost their jobs in the globalized economy.


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Old 11-14-2016, 10:50 PM   #96
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Hillary talked past everyone. I criticized her pretty early on when people were saying that moderate Republicans might vote for her. That she was making a mistake trying to rebuild Obama's coalition and catering to the Millenial vote. She needed to create her own coalition. When she flip flops on TPP, when she adds free college to her platform, when she calls people deplorable, when she talks about inherent bias she lost that opportunity. She could have brought moderate Republicans to create a true big tent party if she had stood up there and defended free trade on that debate stage but she didn't.

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Old 11-14-2016, 11:07 PM   #97
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Hillary talked past everyone. I criticized her pretty early on when people were saying that moderate Republicans might vote for her. That she was making a mistake trying to rebuild Obama's coalition and catering to the Millenial vote. She needed to create her own coalition. When she flip flops on TPP, when she adds free college to her platform, when she calls people deplorable, when she talks about inherent bias she lost that opportunity. She could have brought moderate Republicans to create a true big tent party if she had stood up there and defended free trade on that debate stage but she didn't.
Do you see anyone defending Hillary Clinton at this point? She is now totally irrelevant and I don't think many are in the mood to defend her. Trump is running the country, not her. You can't kick her around anymore, Trump and the GOP have all the power and thus all the responsibility, people will forget her in a week.

Besides aren't the GOP supposed to be the pro free trade party? Why is all the responsibility to defend free trade on her shoulders, when the GOP is supposed to be the free trade party? Its pretty hard for her to do that, when both the left and the right are critical of it.

And none of that changes one important thing: calling anything that comes out Trump's gob policy, is an insult to the concept of policy.


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Old 11-14-2016, 11:20 PM   #98
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Do you see anyone defending Hillary Clinton at this point? She is now totally irrelevant and I don't think many are in the mood to defend her. Trump is running the country, not her.
Well you said..."At this point I would like to believe policy matter, but I think l really know that the flashy guy wins."

Who did he beat? Hillary so I'm not saying to defend her but she's relevant to the conversation. I was discussing the issues with her campaign as I think it is interesting to look into that type of stuff. This thread is also called The Democratic Party so I think it is pertinent to address why they lost, usually theirs some introspection after a loss as to what went wrong.

I said Trump's plan lacked specifics you call them vague same thing. The problem he made his campaign about ideas and Clinton didn't. I would argue his campaign was more policy centric than hers was, which isn't saying a whole lot.


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Besides aren't the GOP supposed to be the pro free trade party? Why is all the responsibility to defend free trade on her shoulders, when the GOP is supposed to be the free trade party? Its pretty hard for her to do, when both the left and the right are critical of it.

And none of that changes that calling anything that comes out Trump's gob policy, is an insult to the concept of policy.

....That's my whole point....Republicans are pro free trade yet they had a candidate that wasn't. Had Clinton owned up to be being pro free trade which she has been her whole political career she could have probably brought some Republicans into her coalition while alienating Millenials who weren't going to show up to vote for her anyways.

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Old 11-14-2016, 11:45 PM   #99
The Overlord
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

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Well you said..."At this point I would like to believe policy matter, but I think l really know that the flashy guy wins."

Who did he beat? Hillary so I'm not saying to defend her but she's relevant to the conversation. I was discussing the issues with her campaign as I think it is interesting to look into that type of stuff. This thread is also called The Democratic Party so I think it is pertinent to address why they lost, usually theirs some introspection after a loss as to what went wrong.
Trump's messaging on her, is that she is was dull and scripted, while Trump was brash, charismatic, willing to speak off the cuff. I.E flashy. He was the bold, brash new direction and she was a dull, scripted politician.

Its hard to argue that a reality TV star would be less flashy then a scripted politician like Clinton. I think that is a big reason why he won and she lost, he connected to people on emotional level, rather then a logical level, Clinton connected to nothing.

Frankly at this point, the discussion should be how the Dems should move on from Hillary's failed machine, rather then trying to criticize her performance, at this point no one thinks she was a good pick, but what's done is done, people have to look to the future

The fact that she lost to this guy seals her fate, I think the Dems will work remove her influence from the party and they will have start over, her defeat is total and humiliating.

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I said Trump's plan lacked specifics you call them vague same thing. The problem he made his campaign about ideas and Clinton didn't. I would argue his campaign was more policy centric than hers was, which isn't saying a whole lot.
Policies are actual thought out ideas, that have concepts and executions, just concepts are not policies.

Trump did not win on policies, because his policies are all over the map and do not make sense.

If you are telling me that Trump was strong on policy, then I think we have devalued what policy is supposed to mean.

If Trump's policies are valid, guess what I can come up with a platform in an hour, because anyone can come up with vague notions that have no details or execution. I can promise every American will get a free unicorn if they support me, if we are going to say Trump's nonsense is policy. If we are going to say policy is just vague ideas, with no details or execution, then anything can be a policy, it makes the term meaningless.

He won on emotions, people thought he was authentic, while Hillary wasn't, despite, being a pathological liar. His campaign did not make logical sense, but for many it made emotional sense.



Quote:
Originally Posted by summerteeth View Post
....That's my whole point....Republicans are pro free trade yet they had a candidate that wasn't. Had Clinton owned up to be being pro free trade which she has been her whole political career she could have probably brought some Republicans into her coalition while alienating Millenials who weren't going to show up to vote for her anyways.
Or she would have gotten eaten alive by both left and right wingers who were unhappy with current trade policies. If both the left and the right hate your policy at once, who do you have left to support you? I think Hillary would have been seen as more of as establishment politician if she went that route, not less.

Her talking about the benefits of free trade would not have gotten her the vote of the Ohio factory worker who lost his job in the globalized economy, telling him how he would get a new job would have.

Hillary said nothing to that guy and Trump sold him a pipe dream and the pipe dream won.


Last edited by The Overlord; 11-14-2016 at 11:54 PM.
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Old 11-15-2016, 12:04 AM   #100
summerteeth
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

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Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
]

Hillary said nothing to that guy and Trump sold him a pipe dream and the pipe dream won.
We are in agreement. The issue is that she didn't give people a reason to vote for her other than Trump is dangerous.

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