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Old 08-01-2013, 05:37 PM   #126
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Default Re: Zach Snyder plans to speak with Frank Miller for MoS Sequel

The thing with Dark Knight Returns is that DC Comics continued to be influenced by it and other writers followed suit over the years. I hope the MOS team look to the comics for Superman and Batman relationship like they did with MOS.

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Old 08-01-2013, 05:37 PM   #127
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Default Re: Zach Snyder plans to speak with Frank Miller for MoS Sequel

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Perhaps definitive is the wrong word. But it's certainly iconic.

It's important to remember that there are plenty of comic book readers who are fans of both Batman and Superman and are informed about both, who enjoy The Dark Knight Returns.

It's not a definitive portrayal of Superman at all. It's a warped bizarro "what if?" interpretation of him. But it is the most famous and iconic encounter between the two characters in their 75 year history. It's just the way it is.

Plenty of Batman fans hate DKReturns too. It's a controversial book. But nobody can argue that it's an influential and iconic work. Many comic writers of today had their minds blown reading that for the first time in '86, and may not have gotten into comics if not for that experience. It was the "gateway drug" for a lot of people.
I'm a fan of both characters and I think DKR is a great book but as I said its not what I want to see on the big screen, not that this film will be mind.

It's definitely the most famous iconic encounter between the two. In some ways its infamous.

Actually your whole post was spot on

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Old 08-01-2013, 05:38 PM   #128
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Default Re: Zach Snyder plans to speak with Frank Miller for MoS Sequel

do we know when Snyder is speaking with Miller??

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Old 08-01-2013, 05:39 PM   #129
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Default Re: Zach Snyder plans to speak with Frank Miller for MoS Sequel

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The thing with Dark Knight Returns is that DC Comics continued to be influenced by it and other writers followed suit over the years. I hope the MOS team look to the comics for Superman and Batman relationship like they did with MOS.
That's just it it's the legacy it's left, that's not the fault if anyone involved or the book itself, it just shows the phenomenon it was/is.

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Old 08-01-2013, 05:40 PM   #130
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Default Re: Zach Snyder plans to speak with Frank Miller for MoS Sequel

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do we know when Snyder is speaking with Miller??
Why thinking of protesting?

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Old 08-01-2013, 05:43 PM   #131
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Default Re: Zach Snyder plans to speak with Frank Miller for MoS Sequel

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How do I say this without it coming off really mean? LOL There are plenty of people in this world who are "fans" of certain things without actually having any real understanding about them
There are also people who hate certain works and portrayals of characters without having any real understanding of them.

The portrayal of Superman in DKR is not anything I've ever had a serious issue with, especially given the context of the story itself. I'd argue KINGDOM COME ultimately does the character more a disservice than DKR did. But that said, both stories raised some very valid points about the character and his relationship to the world.

I've never really understood the widespread issues people have with the portrayal of Superman in THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS.

What, Superman has never been defeated or almost defeated before? Especially by Kryptonite? Read a comic book.

And overall, it's actually fairly in line with the portrayal of Superman in the comics at the time, and in that era, it was just obviously taken to a story extreme for thematic and story purposes. I actually think Superman comes across fairly well in DKR. Vulnerable, and fallible, but no less Superman for it.

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Old 08-01-2013, 05:45 PM   #132
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Default Re: Zach Snyder plans to speak with Frank Miller for MoS Sequel

Yeah Guard, I don't get it. I love Returns and never had a problem with Superman either.

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Old 08-01-2013, 05:48 PM   #133
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Default Re: Zach Snyder plans to speak with Frank Miller for MoS Sequel

I love Returns as well and I didn't have a problem with Superman either. However, the reason I am worried for this film has nothing to do with that book. The problem is that Frank Miller has not been a good writer for years now. Fans often like to joke around that he went insane.

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Old 08-01-2013, 05:52 PM   #134
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I love Returns as well and I didn't have a problem with Superman either. However, the reason I am worried for this film has nothing to do with that book. The problem is that Frank Miller has not been a good writer for years now. Fans often like to joke around that he went insane.
That is true, has he done anything since Holy Terror? Infact was that before or after All Star B&R?

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Old 08-01-2013, 05:52 PM   #135
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I love Returns as well and I didn't have a problem with Superman either. However, the reason I am worried for this film has nothing to do with that book. The problem is that Frank Miller has not been a good writer for years now. Fans often like to joke around that he went insane.
True. I agree with that. But I think it has nothing to do with that, probably just going to him about his take on Returns and what Zack wants to keep and wants to change.

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Old 08-01-2013, 05:56 PM   #136
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There are also people who hate certain works and portrayals of characters without having any real understanding of them.
That may be true. But I'm an educated, intelligent person trained to read and understand narratives and I'm not one of them.

I have a full understanding of Dark Knight Returns. I understand completely what Miller was trying to say about Superman and his place in the world. I don't like it nor do I agree with it. Even within the context of the story.

I don't care for Miller's racism or sexism either. So I don't support his work.
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I'd argue KINGDOM COME ultimately does the character more a disservice than DKR did. But that said, both stories raised some very valid points about the character and his relationship to the world.
Kingdom Come has it's own problems and issues. And I could spend a full page listing them. It's a book with beautiful art that has been revered into iconic status with a lot of problems in characterization. Wonder Woman's characterization is particularly horrible in the book to the point that Mark Waid has apologized for it. The book has horrible gender problems. I'm not excusing Kingdom Come.

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What, Superman has never been defeated or almost defeated before? Especially by Kryptonite? Read a comic book.
I've read thousands of comic books. For about 20 years. Thanks. Still don't like the book.


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And overall, it's actually fairly in line with the portrayal of Superman in the comics at the time, and in that era, it was just obviously taken to a story extreme for thematic and story purposes. I actually think Superman comes across fairly well in DKR. Vulnerable, and fallible, but no less Superman for it.
Actually, I don't think it's at all in line with the portrayal of Superman in comics at that time. Dark Knight Returns was published only a brief year after Superman's final bow in the pre-crisis era with "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tommorrow." The Superman in that book was also vulnerable and falliable but had full control over his choices and a strong will. He was no one's fool.

It was published the same year as John Bryne's Man of Steel reboot which portrayed Clark as again, falliable, vulnerable and yet....empowered and dignified and able to stand tall and make his own choices.

Then again, at this point, the book was written over 25 years ago. So whether it was on point for "that time" really has no bearing on whether it's appropriate to be used as inspiration today. It's certainly NOT on point with the way he's portrayed today nor the way he was portrayed in Man of Steel.

There are plenty of other books that ask challenging, thoughtful and valid questions about Superman's place in our world while keeping his personality and dignity intact. They also managed to be written by men who liked and respected the character.

I respect if you enjoy the book. I do not.

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Old 08-01-2013, 06:02 PM   #137
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Default Re: Zach Snyder plans to speak with Frank Miller for MoS Sequel

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So I guess my question is...if we are talking about "gateway comics" for a Superman movie....why aren't we talking about Death and Return of Superman? Because, THAT was really more of the "gateway" comic for the current generation of readers and it was a book that was actually FOCUSED on Superman and about Superman. Batman was also in THAT story.

(I'm honestly not trying to argue here. I think you've made some great points and you're very thoughful. I'm just raising some other questions.)
Thanks, you have too. It's all good, we're just having a discussion here.

I do think Death and Return would be a great angle to play for a third film, whatever that ends up being. Something about that storyline feels like it should be a little further down the line IMO. Sort of like Knightfall/Dark Knight Rises. Maybe they can dust off Kevin Smith's Superman Lives script when the time comes.

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Old 08-01-2013, 06:06 PM   #138
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Default Re: Zach Snyder plans to speak with Frank Miller for MoS Sequel

Frank Miller is like the Hans Zimmer of comic books. He used to be great but now he just "experiments" with stuff and is hugely overrated.

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Old 08-01-2013, 06:08 PM   #139
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Default Re: Zach Snyder plans to speak with Frank Miller for MoS Sequel

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I have a full understanding of Dark Knight Returns. I understand completely what Miller was trying to say about Superman and his place in the world. I don't like it nor do I agree with it. Even within the context of the story.
What do you think he was trying to say?

And why don't you agree with it in the context of the story?

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Actually, I don't think it's at all in line with the portrayal of Superman in comics at that time. Dark Knight Returns was published only a brief year after Superman's final bow in the pre-crisis era with "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tommorrow." The Superman in that book was also vulnerable and falliable but had full control over his choices and a strong will. He was no one's fool.
How is Superman anyone's fool in DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, or somehow lacking a will of his own, or the ability to make his own choices?

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It was published the same year as John Bryne's Man of Steel reboot which portrayed Clark as again, falliable, vulnerable and yet....empowered and dignified and able to stand tall and make his own choices.
I don't see Superman not making his own choices in DKR.

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Then again, at this point, the book was written over 25 years ago. So whether it was on point for "that time" really has no bearing on whether it's appropriate to be used as inspiration today. It's certainly NOT on point with the way he's portrayed today nor the way he was portrayed in Man of Steel.
There are themes and ideas explored in TDKR that are pretty much timeless, issues inherent to the Superman/Batman relationship, and to their relationship with the world. I don't think Snyder meeting with Miller necessarily has anything to do with the specifics of that portrayal, but more to do with the questions that arise when considering their impact on the world, the politics of it, etc. Who knows, though?

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There are plenty of other books that ask challenging, thoughtful and valid questions about Superman's place in our world while keeping his personality and dignity intact. They also managed to be written by men who liked and respected the character.
It's been a while since I read it, but nothing about Clark Kent's portrayal in DKR that I can recall suggests that Frank Miller doesn't like the character. Only that he recognizes some of the character's more commonly used elements as somewhat flawed. Which is the same approach he took with Batman.

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Old 08-01-2013, 06:08 PM   #140
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Default Re: Zach Snyder plans to speak with Frank Miller for MoS Sequel

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That may be true. But I'm an educated, intelligent person trained to read and understand narratives and I'm not one of them.

I have a full understanding of Dark Knight Returns. I understand completely what Miller was trying to say about Superman and his place in the world. I don't like it nor do I agree with it. Even within the context of the story.

I don't care for Miller's racism or sexism either. So I don't support his work.


Kingdom Come has it's own problems and issues. And I could spend a full page listing them. It's a book with beautiful art that has been revered into iconic status with a lot of problems in characterization. Wonder Woman's characterization is particularly horrible in the book to the point that Mark Waid has apologized for it. The book has horrible gender problems. I'm not excusing Kingdom Come.



I've read thousands of comic books. For about 20 years. Thanks. Still don't like the book.




Actually, I don't think it's at all in line with the portrayal of Superman in comics at that time. Dark Knight Returns was published only a brief year after Superman's final bow in the pre-crisis era with "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tommorrow." The Superman in that book was also vulnerable and falliable but had full control over his choices and a strong will. He was no one's fool.

It was published the same year as John Bryne's Man of Steel reboot which portrayed Clark as again, falliable, vulnerable and yet....empowered and dignified and able to stand tall and make his own choices.

Then again, at this point, the book was written over 25 years ago. So whether it was on point for "that time" really has no bearing on whether it's appropriate to be used as inspiration today. It's certainly NOT on point with the way he's portrayed today nor the way he was portrayed in Man of Steel.

There are plenty of other books that ask challenging, thoughtful and valid questions about Superman's place in our world while keeping his personality and dignity intact. They also managed to be written by men who liked and respected the character.

I respect if you enjoy the book. I do not.
Bravo. No one should be pressured into "liking" anything.

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Old 08-01-2013, 06:10 PM   #141
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Default Re: Zach Snyder plans to speak with Frank Miller for MoS Sequel

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Frank Miller is like the Hans Zimmer of comic books. He used to be great but now he just "experiments" with stuff and is hugely overrated.
I don't think that's a fair comparison at all, especially as I'm a huge fan of Zimmer.

Zimmer hasn't gone nuts for a start, If I were to compare Milker to anyone it'd be Mel Gibson.

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Old 08-01-2013, 06:12 PM   #142
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Default Re: Zach Snyder plans to speak with Frank Miller for MoS Sequel

At this point, Miller's the Nick Cage of comic books

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Old 08-01-2013, 06:12 PM   #143
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Default Re: Zach Snyder plans to speak with Frank Miller for MoS Sequel

My favorite stuff from Zimmer in from the last few years.

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Old 08-01-2013, 06:18 PM   #144
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Default Re: Zach Snyder plans to speak with Frank Miller for MoS Sequel

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At this point, Miller's the Nick Cage of comic books
That might be a better comparison than mine

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Old 08-01-2013, 06:40 PM   #145
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I'll let Bruce sum it all up:

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Old 08-02-2013, 12:14 AM   #146
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Default Re: Zach Snyder plans to speak with Frank Miller for MoS Sequel

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Frank Miller is like the Hans Zimmer of comic books. He used to be great but now he just "experiments" with stuff and is hugely overrated.
He's the George Lucas of comic books.

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Old 08-02-2013, 12:16 AM   #147
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Default Re: Zach Snyder plans to speak with Frank Miller for MoS Sequel

I don't even think Dark Knight Returns was the best portrayal of Batman, much less Superman. Is it too much to hope Snyder will seek other comic writers to consult with? Like one who is actually a Superman fan and has written excellent Superman stories, since this is supposedly a sequel to MOS? Or is it anymore?

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Old 08-02-2013, 12:17 AM   #148
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He's the George Lucas of comic books.
Nailed it.

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Old 08-02-2013, 12:21 AM   #149
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Default Re: Zach Snyder plans to speak with Frank Miller for MoS Sequel

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Frank Miller is like the Hans Zimmer of comic books. He used to be great but now he just "experiments" with stuff and is hugely overrated.
That's still pretty reaching. You don't see the other using the term "pond scum."

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Old 08-02-2013, 12:29 AM   #150
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It'll be fine. Superman wont be anyone's chump. Maybe for a moment with Batman but it wont last. He wont be a government puppet or look stupid.
I think it seems pretty illogical for Snyder to say all this stuff about how Superman is the "king daddy" of superheroes and the greatest and what not, and then suddenly make him out to be Batman's ***** so he can steal the spotlight.

No doubt Superman will get his ass kicked though. And of course he still needs conflict, but I think they can find a good balance.

Though here's what worries me more about Snyder meeting with Miller:

I don't want this to be overly dark and cynical. MOS was somber as it is, and I don't want it to go further. But if anything, hopefully they can play up and develop's Superman's lighter side more in contrast to Batman's edge.

Also, I'm really thinking more of Snyder's trademarks are going to be here. I mean the slo mo. Because of MOS's success and his history with WB, I'm thinking he's gonna go all out with this, which means not be as restrained as he was like MOS. It's possible he could pull a Tim Burton and let his style in more. Or not.

But honestly, we don't know what the hell Snyder is asking Miller about. Though him going to Miller is awfully specific. So it's not unreasonable to think the possibilities Snyder could be playing at. Snyder said they're not adapting it directly, it's just helping them, so for all we know he could be asking Miller how to approach Batman and Superman in the context of their story. How related or unrelated it is to TDKR we don't know.

So really, just calm down people. I wouldn't start worrying until we see, you know, footage.

I can see the marketing/merchandise already though: "Who's Side Are YOU On?"

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