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Old 06-27-2017, 09:44 AM   #501
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

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I think that Democrats should accept the repeal of Obamacare, and then demand a single payer system.
I believe if Hillary had won the election and if dems had done better down ballet and successfully passed a few laws adjusting Obamacare, for example price caps on the use of medical devices, and as more and more young people sing up for insurance to avoid the increasingly large fines then Obamacare would continue to improve in the eyes of Americans. It would be really hard to convince an older person that Obama was out to get em when Obamacare is keeping them alive or a loved one alive and they know it.

Then after that had taken place democrats could talk about something like Medicaid for all and the country as a whole would be more willing to listen and work together on it. As of now Trump might repeal or successfully sabotage Obamacare and it's going to be ten times harder to pass and maintain Medicaid for all.

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Old 06-27-2017, 02:44 PM   #502
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

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Just take your melodramatic, reactionary, nonsense and go away man. You sound like the exact type of moron who said this about Democrats in 1984, and again twenty later 2004 and the exact type of moron who said this about Republicans in 2008, and twelve years before that in 1996.

Politics is cyclical. Always has been, since the founding of our country and always will be.
Still a charmer I see.

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Old 07-10-2017, 06:38 PM   #503
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

Well Pelosi is facing a primary challenger and so is Bernie now.

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Old 07-20-2017, 06:07 PM   #504
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

state-based Democratic party officials need to recruit more people of color for local and state office runs. There needs to be more open challenging of voter-obstruction laws. No more signing onto austerity policies because it makes the party look "sensible" to so-called moderates and independents (who skew heavily conservative to begin with).

It's neither here nor there with me if Pelosi or Sanders runs. Sanders is likely running as an independent to begin with in his senate race. I don't live in Vermont, so he's going to have to deal with that on his own and hopefully be challenged on policies relevant to the Vermont residents.

Nationwide, going hyper-centrist and reflexively knocking down "leftist" concerns is what gradually led to this mess to begin with. Jesse Jackson's campaigns in the 80s were marginalized, but contained policy threads that became "popular" when Sanders ran. There's a hell of a lot of soul searching the national DNC leadership needs to do and a hell of a lot of real street-level outreach. If they're concerned about "ignored people in the working class", that includes plenty of urban folks and racial minorities, not just the much vaunted white rural/exurban demographic. Expand the scope of outreach and stop selling out.

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Old 07-20-2017, 08:29 PM   #505
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

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Well Pelosi is facing a primary challenger and so is Bernie now.
Bernie's super-popular in Vermont, and he has little chance of winning here. Best of luck to him.

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Old 08-11-2017, 12:18 AM   #506
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...-crisis-215474

Between their problems raising money, their lack of a clear direction and new ideas, and ancient leadership the Democrats are in position to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

And of course the biggest issue no one talks or cares about is another huge problem for them: voter suppression laws, the real reason Hillary lost. 5 of the 7 swing states she lost had new voter suppression/discouragement laws, and that factored into her getting less minority votes than Obama did. With their pool of potential voters constantly diluted by these laws, Democrats are in the hole from the beginning.

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Old 08-12-2017, 11:41 PM   #507
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

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http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...-crisis-215474

Between their problems raising money, their lack of a clear direction and new ideas, and ancient leadership the Democrats are in position to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

And of course the biggest issue no one talks or cares about is another huge problem for them: voter suppression laws, the real reason Hillary lost. 5 of the 7 swing states she lost had new voter suppression/discouragement laws, and that factored into her getting less minority votes than Obama did. With their pool of potential voters constantly diluted by these laws, Democrats are in the hole from the beginning.
Plenty of avowed "liberals" (mostly white) and people who vote for Dems love voter suppression. They've bought in whole heartedly into stringent voter ID laws and "fraud" fear mongering. They love it. So the results are what they are, and they have the nerve to be surprised. They speak on "prison reform" in the abstract but they are all in for whatever the latest tough-on-crime measures are, regardless of how they are imbalanced toward communities of color. They move their kids out of school districts the same as conservatives when the student body gets too "minority-heavy". They support emergency financial managers in cities with "obvious" problems like Detroit, or Flint, but, well, never where they actually live. That's going too far.

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Old 08-13-2017, 02:40 PM   #508
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Plenty of avowed "liberals" (mostly white) and people who vote for Dems love voter suppression. They've bought in whole heartedly into stringent voter ID laws and "fraud" fear mongering. They love it. So the results are what they are, and they have the nerve to be surprised. They speak on "prison reform" in the abstract but they are all in for whatever the latest tough-on-crime measures are, regardless of how they are imbalanced toward communities of color. They move their kids out of school districts the same as conservatives when the student body gets too "minority-heavy". They support emergency financial managers in cities with "obvious" problems like Detroit, or Flint, but, well, never where they actually live. That's going too far.
Is this supposed to be sarcasm?

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Old 08-13-2017, 02:47 PM   #509
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Nah, that reads about bitter about MI.

It is important to point out that the emergency managers thing was defeated by ballot proposal. But, the state congress played some legislative games to bring it back.

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Old 08-13-2017, 02:54 PM   #510
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Is this supposed to be sarcasm?
not remotely. Plenty of mainstream/centrist/"sensible" liberal types and Dem voters, especially in Michigan, who co-sign on all of the above policies, either as a "pragmatic" concession to whatever the conservative talking points are regarding those issues, or simply reflective of the conservative elements of their own social worldview. "Well, you need ID to buy a car or buy a beer, show an ID to vote..", that sort of myopic and overly simplistic rationale that middle-class sorts come up with. Especially in Michigan there are plenty of labor-affiliated folks who look at Trump as the guy to bring back heavy manufacturing and more robust skilled-trades and factory-related jobs. The "Reagan Democrats" first became known as a demographic in Macomb County, north of Detroit.


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Old 09-13-2017, 05:58 AM   #511
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

Sanders introducing Medicaid for all legislation today is a mistake that will cost Democrats any chance of retaking Congress in 2018. And it is all being done for the sake of stroking Sanders's massive ego.

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Old 09-13-2017, 07:11 AM   #512
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

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Sanders introducing Medicaid for all legislation today is a mistake that will cost Democrats any chance of retaking Congress in 2018. And it is all being done for the sake of stroking Sanders's massive ego.
I saw that earlier, you don't think it could help rally those that are disillusioned with the ACA or those that came to realize had the GOP put through their plan they would have had no healthcare?

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Old 09-13-2017, 07:51 AM   #513
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It's political grandstanding, because as far as I can tell, it isn't a serious bill, with no mention on how to raise the amount of money needed to pay for it. And the only reason why it would see a vote is for McConnell to mess with the Dem's primaries next year.

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Old 09-13-2017, 09:29 AM   #514
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

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Sanders introducing Medicaid for all legislation today is a mistake that will cost Democrats any chance of retaking Congress in 2018. And it is all being done for the sake of stroking Sanders's massive ego.
That's why Democratic leaders and vulnerable incumbents are avoiding endorsing Bernie. He threw a monkey wrench into last year's elections, why should they stick with him even though he's an independent?

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Old 09-13-2017, 05:03 PM   #515
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

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It's political grandstanding, because as far as I can tell, it isn't a serious bill, with no mention on how to raise the amount of money needed to pay for it. And the only reason why it would see a vote is for McConnell to mess with the Dem's primaries next year.
McConnell isn't going to vote for it. In fact it wouldn't surprise if he just ignores it.

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Old 09-13-2017, 09:32 PM   #516
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

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Sanders introducing Medicaid for all legislation today is a mistake that will cost Democrats any chance of retaking Congress in 2018. And it is all being done for the sake of stroking Sanders's massive ego.
Presenting real programs and solutions is a heck of a lot better than the whole lot of nothing the GOP is doing.

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Old 09-14-2017, 07:21 AM   #517
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I saw that earlier, you don't think it could help rally those that are disillusioned with the ACA or those that came to realize had the GOP put through their plan they would have had no healthcare?
The voters that they get will be outweighed by those that are lost (especially since polling has indicated that single payer, like Sanders's other ideas, are not nearly as popular or widely supported as Sanders and the Bernie Bros seem to believe). So, by pushing through legislation that cannot pass, that really doesn't seem to be wanted by the American people, Sanders has created a catch-22 for Democratic candidates. Either they support his plan and surrender any chance of winning right leaning moderates who are turned off by Trump but on the fence about voting D (which we need to do to reclaim a majority in either house). Or they don't support it, in which case they mobilize the Bernie Bros against them, who seem to believe it is their right to rid the Party of all those who are ideologically impure and have already shown they will stay home rather than vote for any candidate who does not live up to their idealized standard of a progressive.

All of this for the sake of Bernie Sanders grandstanding over legislation that literally cannot get passed even if every Democrat were to vote for it. Hell, even if we got 20 Republican votes this couldn't pass (or survive a veto). So in other words, we have a guy who wants the Democratic Party's nomination for president laying out a trap for down ticket candidates of the Party he wishes to lead that sinks their chances of a majority, as a symbolic gesture designed to stroke his own massive ego. This guy truly is the liberal Donald Trump.

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Old 09-14-2017, 07:22 AM   #518
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It's political grandstanding, because as far as I can tell, it isn't a serious bill, with no mention on how to raise the amount of money needed to pay for it. And the only reason why it would see a vote is for McConnell to mess with the Dem's primaries next year.
It would be a brilliant play for McConnell and Ryan to bring it to a vote.

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Old 09-14-2017, 08:47 AM   #519
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

The GOP are pragmatists, that is where they differ from the Dems. They will exploit whatever the **** they see and take an opportunity regardless of how it makes them look. And that's sadly why they win.

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Old 09-14-2017, 08:51 AM   #520
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I wouldn't call them pragmatists. I would call them hungry for power.

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Old 09-14-2017, 10:10 AM   #521
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I fail to see how supporting universal healthcare is some sort of "idealized Progressive" principal. Bringing our healthcare system up to par with the rest of the modernized world should be pretty standard Progressive policy, if you ask me.

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Old 09-14-2017, 10:24 AM   #522
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

Basically as mentioned before because each state is pretty much its own entity we can't always do what the rest of the planet does. Sucks, but hey.

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Old 09-14-2017, 11:52 AM   #523
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Basically as mentioned before because each state is pretty much its own entity we can't always do what the rest of the planet does. Sucks, but hey.
Not to mention that polling indicates that the majority does not want single-payer. A minority can't force its will on the majority simply for the sake of "being on par with the rest of the world." That's not how democracy works.

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Old 09-14-2017, 11:57 AM   #524
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Frankly, Obamacare was the first major step of changing the viewpoint. As Ryan and McConnell have found out, now that it is really settling in, they can't just go back to pre-ACA. So, they have to work the other direction.

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Old 09-14-2017, 12:04 PM   #525
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

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Not to mention that polling indicates that the majority does not want single-payer. A minority can't force its will on the majority simply for the sake of "being on par with the rest of the world." That's not how democracy works.
Sometimes, democracy sucks. People are generally stupid in large groups and they're too lazy to do the research before making emotional judgements on something. Criminal justice is a huge example of this. As is the War on Drugs.

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