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Old 07-21-2013, 09:24 PM   #1
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Old 07-21-2013, 09:24 PM   #2
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Old 07-21-2013, 09:24 PM   #3
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I just want to throw this out there to both MOS fans, and detractors and those in between. Snyder and Goyer are coming back, that's a fate accompli. How much if any of the critism do you all think will really be taken in digested and acted upon by this crew? I was quite pleased with what I got in MOS. I really liked the pacing actually. It complimented the overall serious tone by making things brisk and getting down to the nitty gritty. I don't think character or inherent drama was harmed by this approach. But that's me. And the hard hitting action was overwhelming but I think that was the point for a film about arguably the most powerful of all the iconic mainstream superheros.

Yet I know in the fan community, despite financial rewards from the GA that there is disappointment. Loud and vocal I might add. Is this going to affect what the sequel will be like? The answer could go either way. I think there may be some irony with the given answer.

What was a huge complaint about Snyder's style post DAWN OF THE DEAD? It was the over use of slow mo and the artificial green screen environments in his follow up films. Was what he did with MOS with it's emphasis on speed, both in specific action sequences and the overall pace of the narrative a reaction on his part to all that criticism? Do you all think the vocal group a detractors will have an effect? And will they even like it if they get what they want? Will the GA want what the genre fans are asking for?

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Old 07-21-2013, 09:25 PM   #4
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He will have a co-writer for WF.

Snyder.
The guy who wrote Sucker Punch and managed to make one of the most beautiful and thoughtful superhero comics ever written sound kind of stupid and juvenile?


Man this movie is gonna blow.

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Old 07-21-2013, 09:51 PM   #5
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Last I heard Goyer was responsible for the begins script, which in many circles is considered gold, in the realm of cbm scripts.
He was but I also think BB suffers from similar script issues to MoS it is just that it is presented much better on screen.

One of the things I noticed in both films is that there seems to be a character who we have never seen before who annoyingly wonders in half way through the film and delivers a plot point from out of nowhere that sets up the third act. It just doesn't work for me and gives the feeling that the third acts are part of a completely different films than what comes before. The films take complete U-turns after those points.

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The guy who wrote Sucker Punch and managed to make one of the most beautiful and thoughtful superhero comics ever written sound kind of stupid and juvenile?
Not seen Sucker Punch (though only heard bad things) but I thought Watchmen was actually pretty good.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:51 PM   #6
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The guy who wrote Sucker Punch and managed to make one of the most beautiful and thoughtful superhero comics ever written sound kind of stupid and juvenile?


Man this movie is gonna blow.
Are you seriously berating a guy because of ONE work? Let's see what he does with comic book material before we start calling him a bad writer.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:54 PM   #7
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Are you seriously berating a guy because of ONE work? Let's see what he does with comic book material before we start calling him a bad writer.
Well talking about nosense... juvenile and what? LOL I guess his only way to see a perfect is if the movie has a great dose of humor... well good for you =)

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Old 07-21-2013, 09:32 PM   #8
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What was a huge complaint about Snyder's style post DAWN OF THE DEAD? It was the over use of slow mo and the artificial green screen environments in his follow up films. Was what he did with MOS with it's emphasis on speed, both in specific action sequences and the overall pace of the narrative a reaction on his part to all that criticism?
While the over use of slow motion is obnoxious (and mercifully absent from Man of Steel), Snyder's biggest problem as far as I'm concerned is that his decision making process for how he films his scenes and how he puts his movies together is based around what would be the most "cool" and "badass" instead of what would tell the best story. He films very pretty shots, but I don't get the feeling he speaks the language of cinema very well.

That being said the pace of Man of Steel was awful. They needed to take their time with the character building moments, but they breezed past them far too fast for anyone to get invested. And then they lingered on the action scenes to an almost fetishistic degree.

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Do you all think the vocal group a detractors will have an effect?
Probably not. I doubt Snyder and Goyer have the skill to pull off what the fans want properly.

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And will they even like it if they get what they want?
Probably. Contrary to internet belief it's actually very rare for people to hate on movies just because they want to hate on them. They usually have actual reasons for not liking something.

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Will the GA want what the genre fans are asking for?
The thing about the general audience is that while they like, or at least tolerate, completely ****ing terrible movies, they also actually like good movies too. They just don't know that it's something they're missing.

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Old 07-21-2013, 09:25 PM   #9
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And another thing, is it possible to make Batman relevant and a badass in a film with Superman without making Superman look bad?

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Old 07-21-2013, 09:28 PM   #10
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And another thing, is it possible to make Batman relevant and a badass in a film with Superman without making Superman look bad?
Yes.

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Old 07-21-2013, 09:32 PM   #11
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Yes.
I sure as hell hope that they take this route. If Goyer and Snyder want to prove to their detractors that they're better writers than what most give them credit for, they need to avoid falling into the standard cliches and easy routes that end up damaging the film more than helping it.

We're not asking for a perfect script, but at least give us a great/excellent one.

And I hope that they officially clarify on what this film is considered as, whether it's officially a MOS 2 but with Batman, or an entirely different film, ala World's Finest.

This almost feels like the situation with X-Men: Days of Future's Past, where some were disappointed that they weren't going to continue with the main story line established at the end of First Class, and instead, do a severe time jump, in more ways than one, thus preventing people from seeing the needed and necessary evolution and development that needed to be explored for the characters.

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Old 07-21-2013, 09:53 PM   #12
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I sure as hell hope that they take this route. If Goyer and Snyder want to prove to their detractors that they're better writers than what most give them credit for, they need to avoid falling into the standard cliches and easy routes that end up damaging the film more than helping it.

We're not asking for a perfect script, but at least give us a great/excellent one.

And I hope that they officially clarify on what this film is considered as, whether it's officially a MOS 2 but with Batman, or an entirely different film, ala World's Finest.

This almost feels like the situation with X-Men: Days of Future's Past, where some were disappointed that they weren't going to continue with the main story line established at the end of First Class, and instead, do a severe time jump, in more ways than one, thus preventing people from seeing the needed and necessary evolution and development that needed to be explored for the characters.
I wouldn't be worried. If there is one thing I am not worried about when it comes to this movie, it is the way in which the characters are characterized and adapted. Goyer and Snyder are both giant comic book nerds. Until I see any news that I would consider to be a red flag, I have faith they will portray the characters as accurately as possible. I thought Superman himself in MOS was great. He was very much like John Byrne's Superman to me, which I loved. He was a larger-than-life God but at the same time, they established that he was human on the inside before he was a Kryptonian. As for Batman, I'm looking forward to finally seeing Batman in all his might and glory. All the live-action versions of Batman have been watered down so far nor have they had a more comic book costume or any fantastic action scenes. With Snyder, we might finally get the world's greatest detective in a black-and-grey suit in fantastic fight scenes and all that other great stuff. We might even get the definitive Batman actor similar to Reeve/RDJ. Even if the story sucks monkey diarrhea, at least there is that to look forward to.

I'm pretty sure it is meant to be a WF film as opposed to MOS 2. They had the Superman/Batman logo together at Comic Con and Goyer even said that "Superman vs. Batman" and "Batman vs. Superman" are currently being thrown around as title ideas. It may be a sequel to MOS though in the same way Iron Man 3 is a sequel to Avengers. One is an Avengers movie and the other is an Iron Man movie but the events in Avengers played a major part in Iron Man 3.

To be honest, I still think this is too rushed. MOS was more of a setup film and Clark just got at the DP. Lex Luthor still has to be introduced. Batman has yet to be introduced in his own movie. This seems a lot more like a business decision than a creative/storytelling decision. Now, does this mean this is a bad idea? No. Is the movie doomed to be bad? No. Does it necessarily mean that the story will feel forced due to it being released this early? No. At the same time though, this was by no means a good idea.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:00 PM   #13
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I wouldn't be worried. If there is one thing I am not worried about when it comes to this movie, it is the way in which the characters are characterized and adapted. Goyer and Snyder are both giant comic book nerds. Until I see any news that I would consider to be a red flag, I have faith they will portray the characters as accurately as possible. I thought Superman himself in MOS was great. He was very much like John Byrne's Superman to me, which I loved. He was a larger-than-life God but at the same time, they established that he was human on the inside before he was a Kryptonian. As for Batman, I'm looking forward to finally seeing Batman in all his might and glory. All the live-action versions of Batman have been watered down so far nor have they had a more comic book costume or any fantastic action scenes. With Snyder, we might finally get the world's greatest detective in a black-and-grey suit in fantastic fight scenes and all that other great stuff. We might even get the definitive Batman actor similar to Reeve/RDJ. Even if the story sucks monkey diarrhea, at least there is that to look forward to.

I'm pretty sure it is meant to be a WF film as opposed to MOS 2. They had the Superman/Batman logo together at Comic Con and Goyer even said that "Superman vs. Batman" and "Batman vs. Superman" are currently being thrown around as title ideas. It may be a sequel to MOS though in the same way Iron Man 3 is a sequel to Avengers. One is an Avengers movie and the other is an Iron Man movie but the events in Avengers played a major part in Iron Man 3.

To be honest, I still think this is too rushed. MOS was more of a setup film and Clark just got at the DP. Lex Luthor still has to be introduced. Batman has yet to be introduced in his own movie. This seems a lot more like a business decision than a creative/storytelling decision. Now, does this mean this is a bad idea? No. Is the movie doomed to be bad? No. Does it necessarily mean that the story will feel forced due to it being released this early? No. At the same time though, this was by no means a good idea.
From what I've seen, a lot of people saying that this feels rushed.

Simply put, Clark just became Superman at the very end of the film and even if people say that they could simply do a time jump in between MOS and this new film, it robs Superman fans the development that should have been devoted to the character on screen and show how he became established.

And in regards to being comic book nerds, well truth be told, I'm more worried that Snyder and Goyer have more love towards someone like Batman as opposed to someone like Superman.

Snyder may have gone on the record of saying on how Superman is the granddaddy of all superheroes, but considering on how he's pretty much LIED about a lot of things regarding the film, ala, saying that Superman needed more films before teaming up with anyone, etc., I really don't trust him or Goyer to do Superman justice when Batman is involved.

If Batman isn't in the picture, then yeah, I think that they'd do goodness towards Superman, but when Batman is in the picture, everything could go out the window.

And even though "Iron Man 3" takes place after the Avengers, and is influenced by its events, it's still considered the third chapter of the solo Iron Man franchise, ala his own trilogy.

Superman doesn't even have that anymore now that they've potentially wasted it on this.

Until some real hard evidence comes up saying otherwise, it feels like the only real fans that will be rewarded by this experience are Batman fans since I can't see them making Batman look bad.

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Old 07-21-2013, 09:26 PM   #14
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But if the movie makes it necessary for the audience to do that then the movie missed something.
In an age when every second critics suggests michael bay thinks his audience to be stupid.
I think not.


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Different contexts. A seasoned urban commando leading a rebel assault against enemy occupiers is different then a newbie superhero suddenly finding himself waist deep in 9/11 imagery. Especially because the battle of gotham had nowhere near the level of destruction that the end fight in MoS had.
A seasoned commando? Batman invaded a city full of innocent people with an atomic bomb on the loose. In the midst of all this, people were dying(good and bad). He should not only know better(batman wouldn't follow a micheal bay battle plan) but he should be visually upset about this situation, instead he spends his time yelling threats at the bad guy.
A newbie superhero facing armageddon with stakes bane could only dream of. I think if batman can be assertive in his situation, this superman has a little room to be business first in his. That being said, his concern was clearly shown after zods threats.

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That's not how movies work. Just the tiniest thing can completely change a scene or even a whole film. One line of dialogue, one properly framed shot, one musical cue, one little anything can be that extra nugget of information that completely changes how an audience reacts to a scene. A movie is made up of thousands of tiny things coming together in subtle ways, not big interchangeable components.
There are alot of tine things that come together to convey who he is, you are implying that we forget all of that in the absence of a line utterance?

I agree that a small thing perhaps can change alot. If superman made a might fight joke the way any of the avengers did during their calamity in the thrid act, I can see why people would think he's just as bad as they are, but the lack of such a line doesn't say all that much imo. It's a safe assumption that superman could have have as well been thinking all of these things.

Here's a thought, what is there to say to a man that just gave Zod's speech? "Please the people?"
Not sure that would do much given what zod was all about not but 4 hours earlier, but then again, maybe we should re-watch the final plea deal superman gives the man at the end there.

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Old 07-21-2013, 09:46 PM   #15
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In an age when every second critics suggests michael bay thinks his audience to be stupid.
I think not.
I don't understand what that has to do with anything.

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A seasoned commando? Batman invaded a city full of innocent people with an atomic bomb on the loose. In the midst of all this, people were dying(good and bad). He should not only know better(batman wouldn't follow a micheal bay battle plan) but he should be visually upset about this situation, instead he spends his time yelling threats at the bad guy.
Yeah, but none of that disproves my point that Batman is a seasoned veteran at that point while Superman in Man of Steel isn't. Also he wasn't seeing first hand dozens of buildings imploding all around him. They're different contexts.

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A newbie superhero facing armageddon with stakes bane could only dream of. I think if batman can be assertive in his situation, this superman has a little room to be business first in his. That being said, his concern was clearly shown after zods threats.
But the problem is that it wasn't shown during the threat. And there's no reason not to show it during the threat.

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There are alot of tine things that come together to convey who he is, you are implying that we forget all of that in the absence of a line utterance?
No. I'm not implying that forgetting has anything to do with this. I'm saying that in that scene Superman acts like he doesn't care about the destruction going on around him and that's weird and one line of dialogue and one reaction shot would have fixed that.

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I agree that a small thing perhaps can change alot. If superman made a might fight joke the way any of the avengers did during their calamity in the thrid act, I can see why people would think he's just as bad as they are, but the lack of such a line doesn't say all that much imo. It's a safe assumption that superman could have have as well been thinking all of these things.
The Avengers weren't bad at all. In fact, they acknowledged and reacted to potential civilian casualties, which Superman didn't do at all. And yes, I know, The Avengers had more of an opportunity to save civilians, but my point is that there were moments on screen that showed that they were thinking about it. Even if Superman didn't have the opportunity to personally save innocent people, it's weird that it doesn't seem to be something that's crossing his mind at that moment.

It's not that we forget that he was established as a good guy already. It's that we expect an established good guy to continue to act like a good guy in such a situation. It's really weird when someone established to care about innocent lives doesn't react to dozens of buildings imploding all around him.

Yes, we are able to remember to earlier in the film and fill in the gaps and assume that he's thinking about that stuff, but the fact that he isn't reacting like a person who cares is a flaw in the filmmaking. Especially because such reactions wouldn't have been detrimental to the film, so there's no reason for the filmmakers to choose not to include them.

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Here's a thought, what is there to say to a man that just gave Zod's speech? "Please the people?"
Not sure that would do much given what zod was all about not but 4 hours earlier, but then again, maybe we should re-watch the final plea deal superman gives the man at the end there.
It wouldn't do much. But we're not talking about what would logically have the most practical outcome in that situation. We're talking about Superman's reaction. Sure, practically, in the context of the events of the film, Superman pleading for people's lives wouldn't have done anything. But it would have been a natural reaction from Superman in that situation and it would have demonstrated to the audience that both Superman and the filmmakers still care.


Ultimately, that's the problem with the last fight sequence. It's not just that Superman doesn't seem to care about the death toll around him. It's that the movie doesn't seem to care. It's showing us the spectacle of this big badass fight scene, but we know from relatively recent history that there are probably people in those buildings and the movie doesn't seem to care because it's too focused on the punching. That's what makes people uncomfortable.

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Old 07-21-2013, 09:54 PM   #16
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I don't understand what that has to do with anything.



Yeah, but none of that disproves my point that Batman is a seasoned veteran at that point while Superman in Man of Steel isn't. Also he wasn't seeing first hand dozens of buildings imploding all around him. They're different contexts.



But the problem is that it wasn't shown during the threat. And there's no reason not to show it during the threat.



No. I'm not implying that forgetting has anything to do with this. I'm saying that in that scene Superman acts like he doesn't care about the destruction going on around him and that's weird and one line of dialogue and one reaction shot would have fixed that.



The Avengers weren't bad at all. In fact, they acknowledged and reacted to potential civilian casualties, which Superman didn't do at all. And yes, I know, The Avengers had more of an opportunity to save civilians, but my point is that there were moments on screen that showed that they were thinking about it. Even if Superman didn't have the opportunity to personally save innocent people, it's weird that it doesn't seem to be something that's crossing his mind at that moment.

It's not that we forget that he was established as a good guy already. It's that we expect an established good guy to continue to act like a good guy in such a situation. It's really weird when someone established to care about innocent lives doesn't react to dozens of buildings imploding all around him.

Yes, we are able to remember to earlier in the film and fill in the gaps and assume that he's thinking about that stuff, but the fact that he isn't reacting like a person who cares is a flaw in the filmmaking. Especially because such reactions wouldn't have been detrimental to the film, so there's no reason for the filmmakers to choose not to include them.



It wouldn't do much. But we're not talking about what would logically have the most practical outcome in that situation. We're talking about Superman's reaction. Sure, practically, in the context of the events of the film, Superman pleading for people's lives wouldn't have done anything. But it would have been a natural reaction from Superman in that situation and it would have demonstrated to the audience that both Superman and the filmmakers still care.


Ultimately, that's the problem with the last fight sequence. It's not just that Superman doesn't seem to care about the death toll around him. It's that the movie doesn't seem to care. It's showing us the spectacle of this big badass fight scene, but we know from relatively recent history that there are probably people in those buildings and the movie doesn't seem to care because it's too focused on the punching. That's what makes people uncomfortable.
Realistically, people will be in the buildings, EVEN if the World Engine was initiated. But realistically, Batman wouldn't shoot through the windows of buildings, KNOWING that no one will ever go near them.

Sense we don't really see anybody in the buildings, what law states that they have to be there?

However, that is a good overall points and demonstrates the critical flaw in the battle scenes, in particular the last one.

We didn't need much, just a few moments when Supes seems to care.

Without such moments, the battle feels like it was thrown in for the heck of it, rather than resolve emotional and suspense-oriented tension.

My 2cents worth.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:32 PM   #17
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I don't understand what that has to do with anything.
I mean that critics don't want films to pander to it's audience, they claim to want films to challenge us to use our minds. Surely you see where I'm coming from.
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But the problem is that it wasn't shown during the threat. And there's no reason not to show it during the threat.
Zod made the threat(I'm gonna kill everyone), superman reacted = superman cares. Achievement = unlocked.

Superman fighting zod, no committed facial expressions at the property damage with unconfirmed kills = superman stopped caring?
The one time they cause serious damage superman was pretty much out cold.

Zod about to burn innocent family, superman again with the concern and begging = ignore list.

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No. I'm not implying that forgetting has anything to do with this. I'm saying that in that scene Superman acts like he doesn't care about the destruction going on around him and that's weird and one line of dialogue and one reaction shot would have fixed that.
Remind me, which scene you are referring to, I'm at a loss here.

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The Avengers weren't bad at all. In fact, they acknowledged and reacted to potential civilian casualties, which Superman didn't do at all. And yes, I know, The Avengers had more of an opportunity to save civilians, but my point is that there were moments on screen that showed that they were thinking about it. Even if Superman didn't have the opportunity to personally save innocent people, it's weird that it doesn't seem to be something that's crossing his mind at that moment.

It's not that we forget that he was established as a good guy already. It's that we expect an established good guy to continue to act like a good guy in such a situation. It's really weird when someone established to care about innocent lives doesn't react to dozens of buildings imploding all around him.
Correct me if I'm wrong but superman never once stops acting like a good guy during this film. If that's what you took from this film I think you are being obtuse. Fighting for the sake of the planet in the face of impossible odds is good. What you are doing is taking this level of good and reducing it to garbage in light of what you claim is the level of good needed for superman to satisfy you.

The only thing I said about avengers is that during their ugly fight they were making constant jokes on the radios, even with all the death and destruction around them. I love that, I love how they can do that and fanboys not claim that those heroes and that filmmaker still care.
I then said if superman did such a thing he'd be considered Lucifer. Imagine it right now, if superman was fighting zod punching him through the air(not through buildings) and on the second punch he said something about how much fun he's having....how he's bringing the party to mid town and how he's bringing sexy back.
the devil I tell ya.

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Yes, we are able to remember to earlier in the film and fill in the gaps and assume that he's thinking about that stuff, but the fact that he isn't reacting like a person who cares is a flaw in the filmmaking.
This is why I said you are hinting at things needing to be spelled out. Someone who doesn't care would walk away. Simple.
Someone who does care would do something about it, at the cost of their own life. I think this character cared.

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Superman pleading for people's lives wouldn't have done anything. But it would have been a natural reaction from Superman in that situation and it would have demonstrated to the audience that both Superman and the filmmakers still care.
He pleaded on two entirely separate occasions, his father did too. You want more.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:51 PM   #18
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I mean that critics don't want films to pander to it's audience, they claim to want films to challenge us to use our minds. Surely you see where I'm coming from.
I understand, but your argument is severely flawed. Showing Superman have an emotional reaction to the destruction his fight with Zod is causing during that fight and showing him at least make an attempt to take the fight out of the city isn't pandering in the slightest, it's maintaining some actual pathos and human emotion during the giant action slugfest that visually reminds people of the largest terrorist attack in US history.

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Zod made the threat(I'm gonna kill everyone), superman reacted = superman cares. Achievement = unlocked.
Yes. That's how pathos in stories works.

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Superman fighting zod, no committed facial expressions at the property damage with unconfirmed kills = superman stopped caring?
It makes it feel that way, yes.

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The one time they cause serious damage superman was pretty much out cold.
I don't remember that being the case at all.

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Zod about to burn innocent family, superman again with the concern and begging = ignore list.
No. The fact that there was a stretch in between where Superman wasn't reacting to what was likely thousands of deaths is what was really goddamn weird and awkward.


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Remind me, which scene you are referring to, I'm at a loss here.
The end fight with Zod, where Superman and Zod are smashing through and toppling over a few different buildings and it hardly seems to phase Superman that he's in a populated city until they crash into the train station.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but superman never once stops acting like a good guy during this film. If that's what you took from this film I think you are being obtuse. Fighting for the sake of the planet in the face of impossible odds is good. What you are doing is taking this level of good and reducing it to garbage in light of what you claim is the level of good needed for superman to satisfy you.
No. I'm not doing that. I'm saying that it makes me really uncomfortable that Superman doesn't make a token attempt to minimize the collateral damage of his fight with Zod or even react to the fact that they're knocking over skyscrapers that people are inside.

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The only thing I said about avengers is that during their ugly fight they were making constant jokes on the radios, even with all the death and destruction around them. I love that, I love how they can do that and fanboys not claim that those heroes and that filmmaker still care.
I then said if superman did such a thing he'd be considered Lucifer. Imagine it right now, if superman was fighting zod punching him through the air(not through buildings) and on the second punch he said something about how much fun he's having....how he's bringing the party to mid town and how he's bringing sexy back.
the devil I tell ya.
They earned the right to make jokes because they also acknowledged the danger that civilians were in and actively tried to rescue them.

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This is why I said you are hinting at things needing to be spelled out.
I am really absolutely not. Wanting Superman to react to the obvious carnage around him isn't wanting things to be spelled out. It's wanting the movie to acknowledge the consequences of what's going on in that scene that people are well aware of because we saw it happen in real life twelve years ago. And, it's wanting some things to stay consistent throughout the film.

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Someone who doesn't care would walk away. Simple.
Someone who does care would do something about it, at the cost of their own life. I think this character cared.
People who care also have emotional reactions to skyscrapers collapsing.

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He pleaded on two entirely separate occasions, his father did too. You want more.
Yes I do. In that scene where people are actually dying by the thousands I want him to display some actual emotions about it.

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Old 07-22-2013, 12:11 AM   #19
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I understand, but your argument is severely flawed. Showing Superman have an emotional reaction to the destruction his fight with Zod is causing during that fight and showing him at least make an attempt to take the fight out of the city isn't pandering in the slightest, it's maintaining some actual pathos and human emotion during the giant action slugfest that visually reminds people of the largest terrorist attack in US history.
Needing him to stop and tell each and every one of us how he is feeling at the moment or it means we will think he doesn't care anymore is pandering.

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Yes. That's how pathos in stories works.
My point proven at last. In case you missed it I said Zod made his verbal threats about the innocent humans and superman reacted. You would have been proud.

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I don't remember that being the case at all.
Zod tossed superman through 8 buildings at one point, the only buildings they went through that may have had people(don't know), the buildings didn't go down.
When superman came out the other end, he was floating and seemingly inert. You'll just have to revisit it.

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The end fight with Zod, where Superman and Zod are smashing through and toppling over a few different buildings and it hardly seems to phase Superman that he's in a populated city until they crash into the train station.
Ah yes, the end fight.
-Starts off in an empty crater,
-moves to an empty building that collapses,
-empty parking garage, empy oil tanker,
-side of a building cracked, all with angry faced superman(not one smile for what that's worth).
-Then abandoned construction building,
-then superman punches the man through the air,
-then zod tosses him through buildings unconfirmed kills(about half as much as the unconfirmed kills caused by the aliens in avengers),
-superman out cold,
-fight ends up in space,
-zod bring it back down,
-satellite debris(no different than the plane debris in Returns),
-train station no kills on impact,
-and you know the rest.

Feel free to correct me, but I ask again, which part are you referring to? Superman not crying over damage he cause is not the same as him not crying over deaths he directly causes.

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No. I'm not doing that. I'm saying that it makes me really uncomfortable that Superman doesn't make a token attempt to minimize the collateral damage of his fight with Zod or even react to the fact that they're knocking over skyscrapers that people are inside.
He makes an attempt to stop Zod, very commendable. The Jaegers don't make an attempt to move the battles outside of the city once the Kaiju are in the city, they attempt to stop them....that's kinda all they can do at that point. And superman actually does make one valid attempt if you watch carefully. Funny enough, he fails, shocker.

They don't knock over any sky scrappers with people inside

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They earned the right to make jokes because they also acknowledged the danger that civilians were in and actively tried to rescue them.
Now you must be playing games.
They earned the right to make jokes because some of them tried to rescue a group of citizens....
I expect alot from you but not this level of selective raging. So superman could have made any number of insensitive, inconsiderate jokes in the middle of "911 times a thousand" as some people put it, if only he was also trying to save lives(cause btw, he wasn't trying to save lives he other goals)
I just don't think you are being consistent here.

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I am really absolutely not. Wanting Superman to react to the obvious carnage around him isn't wanting things to be spelled out. It's wanting the movie to acknowledge the consequences of what's going on in that scene that people are well aware of because we saw it happen in real life twelve years ago. And, it's wanting some things to stay consistent throughout the film.
We saw an alien dictator turn on a tarraforming gravity beam in a fictional city 12 years ago

Buildings do down in earthquakes all the time...don't see people getting over sensitive about movies that tread that ground lightly.

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People who care also have emotional reactions to skyscrapers collapsing.
Not when they are empty.
But sure yes, and I would argue that superman had one and was actively acting upon said reaction, you are arguing that he didn't.

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Yes I do. In that scene where people are actually dying by the thousands I want him to display some actual emotions about it.
That wasn't a question but thanks for elaborating.
There was no scene in which people were dying by the thousands and superman wasn't reacting. The scene you are maybe referring to is when the world engine is destroying a city block and superman is doing the impossible. Other than that, I don't remember their fight causing thousands of deaths.

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Old 07-21-2013, 09:28 PM   #20
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I for one liked Watchmen *more the director's cut* but whatever.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:05 PM   #21
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Seeing as its Snyder and Goyer and their approach seems to be "awesome" over complex story I do however hope we get a live action Batman who lives up to his "World's Greatest Detective" name.

This aspect however I'm not convinced we'll get here...

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:20 PM   #22
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Seeing as its Snyder and Goyer and their approach seems to be "awesome" over complex story I do however hope we get a live action Batman who lives up to his "World's Greatest Detective" name.

This aspect however I'm not convinced we'll get here...
I think pacing would be a similar concern in World's Finest, because there are so many awesome moments needed.

Batman will have his individual badass and awesome moment, so will Superman. Then the inevitable tangle moment between the two. Not to forget setting the villain up awesomely to show how much of a threat he is to these two. And of course the big climatic battle.

It's gonna be a 3-hour action trailer if fine storytelling is absent.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:24 PM   #23
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I think pacing would be a similar concern in World's Finest, because there are so many awesome moments needed.

Batman will have his individual badass and awesome moment, so will Superman. Then the inevitable tangle moment between the two. Not to forget setting the villain up awesomely to show how much of a threat he is to these two. And of course the big climatic battle.

It's gonna be a 3-hour trailer if fine storytelling is absent.
True. Screw MoS and TDKR this film is already the one that deserves the Director's cut the most

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:26 PM   #24
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I think pacing would be a similar concern in World's Finest, because there are so many awesome moments needed.
That's completely the wrong way to think about making a movie. You can't approach it with an "awesome moment" quota that needs to be filled. You have to approach it with the intent of telling the best story possible, with strong themes and characters that work together to build a narrative. When you're doing that with two superheroes the awesome moments just kind of happen naturally.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:31 PM   #25
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That's completely the wrong way to think about making a movie. You can't approach it with an "awesome moment" quota that needs to be filled. You have to approach it with the intent of telling the best story possible, with strong themes and characters that work together to build a narrative. When you're doing that with two superheroes the awesome moments just kind of happen naturally.
It is, just that this seems to be how Zack Snyder approaches his movies, the money shots. And in a movie which reintroduces Batman to the GA, I can see him going for the spectacle as a story crutch yet again.

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