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Old 12-29-2006, 09:15 PM   #101
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Default Re: Cyclops Returns(Old Thread Closed)

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Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay
Despite my opinions AGAINST further sequels to the X-Men films, I actually wouldn't mind seeing a PREQUEL trilogy, one that could run alongside the Wolverine series, and feature a team of Cyclops, Storm, Beast, and Jean as the originals.
That would be a cool idea. What if they added some X-Men like lets say Dazzler or Banshee? They could have been with the Originals... The only question I have about that though is would they have to re-cast?

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Old 12-29-2006, 09:23 PM   #102
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Default Re: Cyclops Returns(Old Thread Closed)

I haven`t been to the Cyclops thread in forever...Um why did the first thread close anyways?

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Old 12-29-2006, 10:57 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by MoPlaYa43
I haven`t been to the Cyclops thread in forever...Um why did the first thread close anyways?
It got so full of Cyke love that the Hype Couldn't handle it. :P

But apparantley it was too big of a thread memory wise.

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Old 12-30-2006, 03:22 AM   #104
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Default Re: Cyclops Returns(Old Thread Closed)

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Originally Posted by MoPlaYa43
That would be a cool idea. What if they added some X-Men like lets say Dazzler or Banshee? They could have been with the Originals... The only question I have about that though is would they have to re-cast?
Nah, I don't think they'd have to recast. I think that they could continue with Stewart, Berry, Marsden, Jannsen, and McKellen (although I don't think they need McKellen for the entire trilogy, perhaps just the first one, to show how Magneto went from Xavier's friend, to enemy, and to show the X-Men have faced him before), and then the latter 2 films could introduce new villians.

I think that the original team would work best as Cyclops, Storm, Jean Grey, and Beast. I dunno how neccesary Dazzler would be, but I could definatley see Banshee playing a role, considering that Xavier does have connections to Moira McTaggert and Muir Island even in the movie verse. Through Moira's connection to Xavier, Banshee becomes a part of the X-Men, and then eventually, his daughter (Siryn, as seen in X2), could be sent to the school as a student.

A mutant massacre style plotline could also work, bringing back Callisto, Arclight, and Quill, and showing their grudge against humanity, as the Morlocks are slaughtered in the mutant massacre. Characters like Sinister and Gambit could come in to play a part. I think part of the end of the 3rd film could have Magneto recruiting his new Brotherhood of Sabretooth, Toad, and Mystique, and show Mystique killing Henry Gyrich and posing as him, infiltrating Senator Kelly's campaign. I say "new Brotherhood", because the first of the "Origins" trilogy could have an original Brotherhood with Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, and perhaps Avalanche, where they are all allied with Xavier and the X-Men as one, until Magneto's eventual defection, and he takes his Brotherhood with him.

I have some ideas for how the "Origins" trilogy could play out. But this isn't the proper thread, I suppose. I only initially brought it up, because I think it's a good way for Cyclops to get a bit more of the exposure that he deserves. I don't have a problem with Cyclops in the movies, until X-Men: The Last Stand, but I do think that it kind of sucks that we only see the leader of the X-Men lead the team in 1 film. He's taken out in 2, and killed in 3. Granted, when he does return in 2, he returns as the head of the team, barking out orders, like he should. But the majority of the film has Storm leading the team. In 3, he's killed, and it's Storm and Wolverine leading the team, the latter of which has no place in leading anything.

An "Origins" trilogy could showcase him being the leader that, yea we did see that in the trilogy we got, but when the 2nd in command leads more than the field leader, even I question the impression that gives off.

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Old 12-30-2006, 04:55 AM   #105
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Default Re: Cyclops Returns(Old Thread Closed)

With more posts like this explaining or re-scripting how to enlarge or more properly present Cyclops' role, only make me feel more bitter coz they probably will never come true...

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Old 12-30-2006, 01:29 PM   #106
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Default Re: Cyclops Returns(Old Thread Closed)

Meh.

Reboot is the only way to go to redeem Cyke.

I mean, we never get the impression (all thanks to bad writing, I know, but still) he's an accomplished leader worthy of the title in the trilogy.

If he keeps getting his a$$$ kicked as he gets OLDER, how would the writers explain him surviving nevermind winning ANY battle in an Origins Trilogy?

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Old 12-30-2006, 01:29 PM   #107
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Default Re: Cyclops Returns(Old Thread Closed)

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Originally Posted by MoPlaYa43
I haven`t been to the Cyclops thread in forever...Um why did the first thread close anyways?
Over 20k posts, bwahahaha.

Funniest thing is I wanted to post a "LET'S MAKE IT TO 30K!!!!" message... But I left for a couple of days, and, well, here we are...

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Old 12-31-2006, 09:43 AM   #108
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Default Re: Cyclops Returns(Old Thread Closed)

What?! A Cyclops thread with less than 200 posts? This is wrong in sooo many ways...

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Old 12-31-2006, 10:34 AM   #109
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Default Re: Cyclops Returns(Old Thread Closed)

Well by saying that by tonight there will be lol.

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Old 12-31-2006, 10:36 AM   #110
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Default Re: Cyclops Returns(Old Thread Closed)

So is this thread about dicussing why the old thread was closed?

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Old 12-31-2006, 11:00 AM   #111
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So is this thread about dicussing why the old thread was closed?
No. You have some who have or had no idea that the old thread closed, so they're asking why it was closed.

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Old 12-31-2006, 11:05 AM   #112
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Default Re: Cyclops Returns(Old Thread Closed)

we need more pics!

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Old 12-31-2006, 11:13 AM   #113
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No. You have some who have or had no idea that the old thread closed, so they're asking why it was closed.
It's just that when I came into this thread, not many people were actually discussing Cyclops lol.

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Old 12-31-2006, 11:13 AM   #114
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Default Re: Cyclops Returns(Old Thread Closed)

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we need more pics!
yeah!

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Old 12-31-2006, 02:08 PM   #115
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Default Re: Cyclops Returns(Old Thread Closed)

Happy Holidays everybody!

I love the character of Cyclops, and I thought James Marsden did a great job. It's a shame Fox were too busy focussing all their attention on Wolverine instead of realising that the X-Men comic books were about a TEAM of superheroes, not just about the one with claws.

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Old 12-31-2006, 04:10 PM   #116
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Default Re: Cyclops Returns(Old Thread Closed)

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Originally Posted by spoarz_tm
Happy Holidays everybody!

I love the character of Cyclops, and I thought James Marsden did a great job. It's a shame Fox were too busy focussing all their attention on Wolverine instead of realising that the X-Men comic books were about a TEAM of superheroes, not just about the one with claws.
Eh. Preaching to the choir, friend.


Oh well, am about to head out for the ritualistic 31th of december drinking binge.

Happy New Year, folks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


P.S. And yes, Cyke still will roxor just as bad in 2k6. To hell with Fox.

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Old 12-31-2006, 05:12 PM   #117
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Happy New Year everyone! I hope 2007 is just as good as 2006, if not better! And to kick things off:





They're from the Superman Returns Premier, but I'm not sure where I found them. Been on my computer for ages. You've probably seen them already, but, and Jimmy is good Jimmy

Edit: And yes, I know they aren't Cyclops pics, but wasn't the last thread about cyclops AND Marsde?

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Old 01-01-2007, 10:39 PM   #118
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Eh eh.

Don't get me wrong. I used to have similar thoughts back in the days.

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It's just that everything they got "right" (meh) is so f***** DILUTED that it almost becomes a joke.
Isn't EVERYTHING gotten right fairly "diluted" in the three films?

Quote:
1 - Take the Scott/Xavier relationship...

Seemed pretty much one-sided to me.
A bit.

Quote:
His 'some more than others' (or whatever) line at the end of X2?? Would be touching if if the prof didn't give up on Cyke after EIGHT f*****n months.
Who says Xavier gave up on him? That's never indicated. He just didnt know if Cyclops would be able to lead the school because of the impact Jean's death had on him. And there is, I believe, a precedent for Xavier doubting Scott's leadership in the comics. Hell, there have been times when Scott himself doubts himself.

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He talks big but fails at about the worst possible moments. Due to bad writing, I know, but still...
In the biggest moment, when he could not fail, Cyclops SUCCEEDS. Being taken out by Lady Deathstrike is not a "biggest" moment, and while he does help cause the dam incident, he's being controlled at that point.

Quote:
3 - The 'fry him' / bad landing argument

I'm sorry, but I obstinately maintain they can be used as argument. Why? The so-called 'screw-ups' were just there so that another character would get a one-liner at Cyclops' expense (bad writing, I know, but it's still there).
It's not bad writing. It's called levity, and its used to lighten a serious situation. Every superhero film has these moments. Magneto taking a shot at the X-Men is nothing new. And frankly, if Storm HAD fried Magneto...even if the X-Men had died...MAGNETO WOULD HAVE BEEN STOPPED. So Cyclops was right to make that call. He made a split-second decision, and it seems he was correct.

Quote:
I never said it made him a failure. Christ, anyone but a world-class pilot would've managed to not f*** up that water landing (which Cyke didn't really do). Still, it came out as if Logan had any right to be righteously whiny about the thing.
It's just a moment of levity, to show Wolverine for who he is in the filmverse, and that's someone who takes potshots at Cyclops. People read far too much into it. It doesn't mean Cyclops is a weak character, it means Logan is an *******.

Quote:
And that 'fry him' line. There's nothing indicating that Cyke didn't KNOW exactly what he was doing. He might very well have thought 'if we go down, so do you, old man'. It's just that Mags get a decent one-liner while Cyke doesn't.

Also, the writers never explored Cyke's reaction to the Liberty Island debacle. It sure as hell LOOKS bad.
Exactly. But that's a writing issue. Not an issue with Cyclops' character choices, or his portrayal.

Quote:
All I'm saying is that the writers don't care to make him look bad (without bothering to explain, really) just so others would look good/better.
Or maybe they just needed moments of levity, and those moments came mostly from Wolverine in the movie.

Quote:
Think about it. I like to think those examples don't qualify at nit picking.
But ALL the X-Men look inept or inexperienced at some point in X-MEN. Even Wolverine. Storm is owned. Jean is owned. Xavier "fails" to stop Magneto at the train station, and is then taken out of action. Twice. And Wolverine is taken out three times in X-MEN alone.

Quote:
X1: The way he gets PWNED at the train station and at Liberty Island by Toad. Little more than to prove that movieverse Toad is an actual threat to the good guys.
Not really. That scene shows several things.

1. Toad's abilities.

2. Cyclops' POWER.

3. Human reaction to mutants

4. The strategic nature of Magneto's plans.

5. Sets up Cyclops without his visor, so that when it happens at the end, it has some impact.

In the same scene, Storm gets "owned" by Sabertooth for the most part. And Wolverine gets "owned" by Magneto. So does Rogue. It's not like the writers only shat on Cyclops at the train station.

Quote:
Fine, so Jean and Storm get PWNED by Toad, too. Still, he goes down first.
So? Maybe that's so he can be UP first storywise, to blow the door open and aid Jean when Toad slimes her and she's, you know, freaking out and suffocating.

Quote:
Oh yeah, and Storm gets to fry Toad. I'll admit Jean gets screwed over real bad in X1, but she gets a serious boost in X2 and becomes next to invincible while Scott...
How does Jean get "screwed over real bad" in X-MEN?

Quote:
X2: Getting his a$$$ kicked by Deathstrike. Going down in ONE HIT just to set up the villain for Logan's big fight. At least Logan didn't get a legit victory (bwahahahaha), but still...
You forget that before he goes down with one hit...he takes out Deathstrke with a well-placed optic blast. How many hits should he have lasted for? He thought she was down for good, and she surprised him with healing abilities. He goes down so he can be kidnapped, so he and Xavier are taken out of the picture, forcing other X-Men to step up. That's not a weakness of Cyclops' character. It's a strength of Deathstrike's.

Quote:
One could start arguing over the Scott/Jean fight, but both were holding back, so we can't get much out of that one. *shrugs*
Cyclops wasn't holding back much. But then, he was fighting Phoenix. He displayed a TON of power in that sequence. Hardly one that makes the character look inept or weak.

Quote:
Come on, I'm not making up the whole 'Cyke is everyone else's b**ch and goes down first' vibe we get from the movies. We might argue over the degree, but, come on. He's just there to get PWNED every time.
In the movies, Wolverine gets owned by Magneto twice, Mystique, Deathstrike, and then owned again by Phoenix in X3. Cyclops isn't the only one who people treat like crap and beat up on. Yes, Cyclops takes a lot of crap from Wolverine. But that's a comic book thing. He doesn't always attack Wolverine for insulting him childishly.

Quote:
Hell, he's pretty much the ONLY good guy who never redeems himself in battle.
Except for in X-MEN, when he takes out Sabertooth and Magneto. What "battle" was there to redeem himself in in X2? And he "died" in X3, so you can't blame him for not redeeming himself in battle then.

Quote:
Trust me, back in the X1 & X2 days, I did use to argue about how Cyke didn't get badly screwed over.

Cynism just took over.

Trust me, I do not want to get into a flame war with ya. You make actual sense when posting. I semi-agree on quite a few Cyke-related things, too. It's just that cynism thingy I mentioned.
I don't think it's that he doesn't get screwed over. He does, in terms of screentime and character fate and so forth. But he's portrayed well.

We saw Cyclops as a superb leader in X-MEN. Problem is, we didn't see it after that. X2 and X3 showed us more of his emotional side, and not so much of his leadership skills. But that doesn't change the fact that X-MEN portrayed him as one hell of a leader for such a young man in such incredibly dangerous situations.

Anyway, the character Cyclops has nothing to apologize for. And the writing of him can be "redeemed". The way to "redeem" Cyclops in future films (if they happen) is simple. Have HIM try to redeem himself, and make that his arc. That's something from the comics, a complete obsession with succeeding and hating his failures.

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Old 01-02-2007, 02:16 AM   #119
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Oh, great. Just had to track me down in the Cyke thread, did ya?

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Originally Posted by The Guard
Eh eh.
Isn't EVERYTHING gotten right fairly "diluted" in the three films?
Yes, very. Appalingly so. I'm fairly certain I've said it numerous times in other threads.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
Who says Xavier gave up on him? That's never indicated.
Neither is the exact opposite. Also, both Logan and Storm seemed more concerned about him leaving/breaking down.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
He just didnt know if Cyclops would be able to lead the school because of the impact Jean's death had on him. And there is, I believe, a precedent for Xavier doubting Scott's leadership in the comics. Hell, there have been times when Scott himself doubts himself.
I know. I'm a Cyke fan. Doubting himself and breaking only to pick himself up (if only partially) is the story of Scott Summers' life. They should've tackled that right after X1. But noooo, we got him in some sort of denial over how bad things went down at Liberty (arguably the Train Station too - he seemed pissed, but not quite overwhelmed with guilt)...

I'm not saying Xavier was WRONG to dismiss him as team leader. He just didn't seem that concerned about his recovery.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
In the biggest moment, when he could not fail, Cyclops SUCCEEDS.
You mean shooting an old man in the back and opening his eyes to blast the hairball after Logan and Jean did all the work?

Funny you said when he could not'. I mean, seriously, how could he have screwed it up at that point?


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
It's not bad writing. It's called levity, and its used to lighten a serious situation. Every superhero film has these moments. Magneto taking a shot at the X-Men is nothing new.
My point was that Cyke seemed to get the short end of the stick during said moments. Funny coincidence, really.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
And frankly, if Storm HAD fried Magneto...even if the X-Men had died...MAGNETO WOULD HAVE BEEN STOPPED. So Cyclops was right to make that call. He made a split-second decision, and it seems he was correct.
Agree that Cyke made the right call. I pointed out in the old thread that it was in character for Cyke to blow up a battlefield to take down his enemies. It's just that we don't get the vibe that anyone took it seriously in the movie. Nor does the writer/directors made an effort to make it so that the audience should have. I mean, christ, a character basically suggests a "we all go down together" scenario and a whole 5 seconds is spent on it. Rotflmao.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
It's just a moment of levity, to show Wolverine for who he is in the filmverse, and that's someone who takes potshots at Cyclops. People read far too much into it. It doesn't mean Cyclops is a weak character, it means Logan is an *******.
Agree with the 'too much' part. Still believe it can be used as a 'bias for Wolvie' argument, though.

About the ******* part, don't I know that, lol.

Hey, I'm a Wolvie fan. I pointed out that in other threads that the writers ditched the whole samourai-ish angle of his persona and turned him into an obnoxious a$$$hole.

Once again, it's the timing of said 'potshots' and how they were presented. Comicverse Cyke would've glared at Wolvie or told him to f*** off. Comicverse Wolvie would've most likely just laughed. But nooooo. We get this instead.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
Or maybe they just needed moments of levity, and those moments came mostly from Wolverine in the movie.
At the expense of Cyke, that's the whole point I'm making. The whole Scott/Logan dynamic is the comic is that they usually tell each other to f*** off and end up with somewhat of a draw.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
But ALL the X-Men look inept or inexperienced at some point in X-MEN. Even Wolverine. Storm is owned. Jean is owned. Xavier "fails" to stop Magneto at the train station, and is then taken out of action. Twice. And Wolverine is taken out three times in X-MEN alone.
Okay, Nell2ThaIzZay said something about Cyke not being any worse than any other mutant.

That's the whole point. We don't ever get the impression that he did a better job than anyone else would've done as leader.

We Cyke fans aren't asking for him to save the day and beat the f*** out of every villain. It's just that whether he's a better field leader than ANY other character in the movieverse is open to debate. Like, A LOT.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
Not really. That scene shows several things.

1. Toad's abilities.

2. Cyclops' POWER.

3. Human reaction to mutants

4. The strategic nature of Magneto's plans.

5. Sets up Cyclops without his visor, so that when it happens at the end, it has some impact.
Ok, so it does. See next entry.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
In the same scene, Storm gets "owned" by Sabertooth for the most part. And Wolverine gets "owned" by Magneto. So does Rogue. It's not like the writers only shat on Cyclops at the train station.
Cyke's job was to WATCH STORM'S BACK and essentially be the lookout boy. He failed. Badly. Also, Xavier at least gets to TRY to stop Mags. He fails because Mags threatened to kill people. Not because he didn't see some creep crawling up a wall. Quite the difference.

Also, Storm does get rid of Sabertooth. And Wolvie, well, he CAN'T win against Mags. EVER. How the hell can it be used as a comparison? I don't like it, but Cyke got shafted the worst in said scene.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
So? Maybe that's so he can be UP first storywise, to blow the door open and aid Jean when Toad slimes her and she's, you know, freaking out and suffocating.
Yeah, but he wouldn't have to aid her had the team not been divided (Logan's fault, but Cyke didn't manage to get him to stay put) and taken down so easily. Not quite his fault once again, but had they not gotten gotten caught off guard, it would've been to his credit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
How does Jean get "screwed over real bad" in X-MEN?
Exactly WHAT does she do? See your own comment from above, too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
You forget that before he goes down with one hit...he takes out Deathstrke with a well-placed optic blast. How many hits should he have lasted for? He thought she was down for good, and she surprised him with healing abilities.
Sigh. I've already said that taking down 4 opponents in like 20 seconds was roxor. It's just that the way he goes down seemed rather weak compared to his comic counterpart, not to mention THEY SHOT A LONGER VERSION OF SAID SCENE. I'm not saying Cyke should've WON the fight. Christ, even in the novel he at least TRIED to fight DeathStrike hand-to-hand. I was complaining about the directorial choices of said scene.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
He goes down so he can be kidnapped, so he and Xavier are taken out of the picture, forcing other X-Men to step up.
So we agree he's basically a plot tool. I don't like it. You don't mind. Fair enough.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
That's not a weakness of Cyclops' character. It's a strength of Deathstrike's.
Sure, I'll give you that one. Could've been anyone else, in that room. But it's still at his expense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
Cyclops wasn't holding back much.
Really? Somehow I think Stryker would give him a specific order to hold back and not blast the dam to pieces. That first blast aimed at Mags and Mystique wasn't much, really. A semi-hole in a wall? And the way he knocked over that jeep... At full or near full-power, he would've done much more serious damage. Like, ya know, cleaving it in two for starters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
But then, he was fighting Phoenix. He displayed a TON of power in that sequence. Hardly one that makes the character look inept or weak.
Didn't I write that I wasn't going to use said battle as an argument for "Cyke got shafted". Also posted on the old thread that this battle was the one that made him look the best in X1 and X2 because he keeps picking himself up and faster than Jean. Also, we don't actually know whether it was Cyke's or the Phoenix' power that damaged the damn. Thus the whole 'me not using it as argument' part.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
In the movies, Wolverine gets owned by Magneto twice, Mystique, Deathstrike, and then owned again by Phoenix in X3. Cyclops isn't the only one who people treat like crap and beat up on.
You forgot Sabertooth did so twice in X1, actually.

Still, my point was that he always gets taken down first and FAST. I know it has to do with writing and how easily the good guys would win if he didn't get taken down everytime. Still, it annoys.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
Yes, Cyclops takes a lot of crap from Wolverine. But that's a comic book thing. He doesn't always attack Wolverine for insulting him childishly.
Yeah. I still think they didn't quite get it right. Somewhat, I'll concede. Still not right IMO.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
Except for in X-MEN, when he takes out Sabertooth and Magneto. What "battle" was there to redeem himself in in X2? And he "died" in X3, so you can't blame him for not redeeming himself in battle then.
The whole point was that it's somewhat unfair that he doesn't get to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
I don't think it's that he doesn't get screwed over. He does, in terms of screentime and character fate and so forth.
Thank you for at least admitting that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
But he's portrayed well.
In the sense that he is what we got in the first ten issues of the comicbook? Sure. But then again, most characters were little more than cardboard cut-outs back then.

As was said above, they just didn't spend much (aka more than 2 minutes) dealing with the whole self-doubting angsty angle of the persona, which, IMO, far outweighs the boyscout angle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
We saw Cyclops as a superb leader in X-MEN. Problem is, we didn't see it after that. X2 and X3 showed us more of his emotional side, and not so much of his leadership skills. But that doesn't change the fact that X-MEN portrayed him as one hell of a leader for such a young man in such incredibly dangerous situations.
IMO, what they showed us in X1 was "he did OK, considering". The point is that comicverse Cyke he's a GOOD leader. Not PERFECT, but better than f****n OK. And whether we got that in X1 is pretty much open to debate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
Anyway, the character Cyclops has nothing to apologize for.
Fair enough. Still, he doesn't have much to be proud of. Comicverse Cyke would keep count and lose sleep over it. He'd blame himself for the professor's capture and Jean's death and go completely insane. Maybe that's what they were trying to convey in X3 (Ah! as if!) but all we got was a 'EMO - Jean is gone' vibe, a 'voices in head' arc and a four lines-long discussion with Logan in the hall...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
And the writing of him can be "redeemed". The way to "redeem" Cyclops in future films (if they happen) is simple. Have HIM try to redeem himself, and make that his arc. That's something from the comics, a complete obsession with succeeding and hating his failures.
I KNOW that. That's what I expected/hoped for X3.

Hell, that should've been his story arc ever since Liberty Island. See the 'losing sleep over it' comment.

That's why I don't think they got Cyke right. They just so happen to overlook something which you refered to (and rightfully so) as a COMPLETE OBSESSION.

I'm sorry, that's just too much of an omission for me.



Look, as I've said in another thread, one of the things I liked most about X-Men was/is the Cyke/Wolvie dynamic. Jean's not even in the equation, really.

Always saw them as two broken samourais who just happen the be two sides of the same coin.

It's just that movieverse Cyke essentially became Logan's foil and that one doesn't really have to look deep to find rather solid evidence indicating just that.

Fine, so I think the writers did that from day one. You don't. Fair enough.

Still, the whole him being screwed screentime and fate-wise should qualify as evidence for the foil thingy I just mentioned.

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Old 01-02-2007, 12:59 PM   #120
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Neither is the exact opposite. Also, both Logan and Storm seemed more concerned about him leaving/breaking down.
They should be concerned. They were concered about him all the time in the comics, so that's a good thing to show. But it doesn't mean they've given up on him. I'll give you that a Xavier/Cyclops scene would have been really nice before he left for Alkali Lake.

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I know. I'm a Cyke fan. Doubting himself and breaking only to pick himself up (if only partially) is the story of Scott Summers' life. They should've tackled that right after X1. But noooo, we got him in some sort of denial over how bad things went down at Liberty (arguably the Train Station too - he seemed pissed, but not quite overwhelmed with guilt)...
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I'm not saying Xavier was WRONG to dismiss him as team leader. He just didn't seem that concerned about his recovery.
I don't know. The way Xavier said "He took Jean's death so hard" indicated Xavier cared about what was happening to Scott to me. What do you say about someone in a deep depression? You generally can't do much about it.

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You mean shooting an old man in the back and opening his eyes to blast the hairball after Logan and Jean did all the work?
I mean shooting Magneto and not hitting the machine, or Rogue. Yes. Who cares if he shot Magneto in the back? It was a hell of a shot, and he made the call to take it, and succeeded.

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Funny you said when he could not'. I mean, seriously, how could he have screwed it up at that point?
By missing the shot, and hitting Rogue or the machine, as he seemed to fear he could.

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Originally Posted by The Guard
It's not bad writing. It's called levity, and its used to lighten a serious situation. Every superhero film has these moments. Magneto taking a shot at the X-Men is nothing new.

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My point was that Cyke seemed to get the short end of the stick during said moments. Funny coincidence, really.
Ok. So? There were what, two of them? Maybe three? Logan picking on Scott about anything and everything is something pulled right from the comics. Those scenes served to establish the whole "Cyclops doesn't like Logan" angle in X-MEN. Magneto's barb was seemingly aimed at the X-Men in general. Something else that is from the comics. His early underestimation and dismissal of them.

And it's not like Cyclops didn't get his jabs in. Cyclops did get a "fill 'er up" in during X2, and a "No, you were the one who stabbed Rogue through the chest" in X-MEN.

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Agree that Cyke made the right call. I pointed out in the old thread that it was in character for Cyke to blow up a battlefield to take down his enemies. It's just that we don't get the vibe that anyone took it seriously in the movie. Nor does the writer/directors made an effort to make it so that the audience should have. I mean, christ, a character basically suggests a "we all go down together" scenario and a whole 5 seconds is spent on it. Rotflmao.
Chalk it up to faster pacing in general toward the end of the film. They move right along with "Why do none of you understand what I'm trying to do?" and "I've seen Senator Kelly".

It's just a moment of levity, to show Wolverine for who he is in the filmverse, and that's someone who takes potshots at Cyclops. People read far too much into it. It doesn't mean Cyclops is a weak character, it means Logan is an *******.

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Agree with the 'too much' part. Still believe it can be used as a 'bias for Wolvie' argument, though.
Of course it can, but the sequences are not written to look Cyclops look weak. Those sequences are written to make Wolverine look even more of an *******, and to show that Cyclops isn't, that he controls himself (which is a major part of his character, yes?). Other than the fact that comic book Cyclops would likely have knocked Wolverine's block off if he did some of those things, or fired back at him, I've never understood why people feel that Scott "turning the other cheek" would have reflected badly on movie Cyclops.

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Hey, I'm a Wolvie fan. I pointed out that in other threads that the writers ditched the whole samourai-ish angle of his persona and turned him into an obnoxious a$$$hole.
Well, he did sacrifice himself to save the day...and then again for Rogue. I know it's not textbook Samurai stuff, but it's pretty honorable.

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Once again, it's the timing of said 'potshots' and how they were presented. Comicverse Cyke would've glared at Wolvie or told him to f*** off. Comicverse Wolvie would've most likely just laughed. But nooooo. We get this instead.
And what is the point of that exchange? It becomes an issue with movie Cyclops showing more control than comic book Cyclops does (Although I've seen many moments in the comics where Cyclops does choose the high road and just lets Wolverine jaw at him). Not with movie Cyclops being portrayed as weak or ineffectual. And besides, there came a point where Wolverine GOT to Scott, and he said the whole "You were the one who stabbed Rogue" thing.

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At the expense of Cyke, that's the whole point I'm making.
One, you're acting like Scott suffers from Wolverine's jabs. He doesn't. And Wolverine's jabs don't have any real bearnig to them, he's just being an ass, so Scott's character hardly suffers for those moments.

And yes, most of them came at Cyclops' expense. Good. Because that's their dynamic. Wolverine also made fun of Xavier, at the beginning, and the X-Men's entire cause at one point. And the uniforms. And he told Storm the whole "Who do you think you are? You're a mutant..." thing.

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The whole Scott/Logan dynamic is the comic is that they usually tell each other to f*** off and end up with somewhat of a draw.
Didn't they in the movie? They just didn't use the same words. There's a scene where they fire back and forth and are getting heated, and Xavier says "Settle this", and there's a sort of "draw"

(I'll bet you would have loved the Cyclops/Wolverine fistfight over Jean in Andrew Kevin Walker's script, btw. It's hilarious).

But ALL the X-Men look inept or inexperienced at some point in X-MEN. Even Wolverine. Storm is owned. Jean is owned. Xavier "fails" to stop Magneto at the train station, and is then taken out of action. Twice. And Wolverine is taken out three times in X-MEN alone.

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That's the whole point. We don't ever get the impression that he did a better job than anyone else would've done as leader.
Why not? He shows a desire to keep Xavier's dream alive and protect the X-Men and the students. He flat out LEADS the team during the film. He strategizes. He's successful in his strategies. And he ends up making all the important calls in X-MEN and then being instrumental in saving the day. No one else in X-MEN or X2 is shown to have those kinds of leadership qualities (except for Magneto).

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We Cyke fans aren't asking for him to save the day and beat the f*** out of every villain. It's just that whether he's a better field leader than ANY other character in the movieverse is open to debate. Like, A LOT.
But we don't don't see Wolverine with half the leadership skills Scott has. Ditto Storm. Ditto Jean. Ditto anyone. Only Scott possesses them in X-MEN, and Magneto shows some in X2 and X3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard
In the same scene, Storm gets "owned" by Sabertooth for the most part. And Wolverine gets "owned" by Magneto. So does Rogue. It's not like the writers only shat on Cyclops at the train station.

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Cyke's job was to WATCH STORM'S BACK and essentially be the lookout boy. He failed. Badly.
Cyclops job was to find Rogue, the same as Storm. He only "fails" because Toad knocks off his visor. Before that, he's pushing through the crowd, about to deliver a whupping to Sabertooth. So he fails. Big deal. EVERYONE failed in that movie.

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Also, Xavier at least gets to TRY to stop Mags. He fails because Mags threatened to kill people. Not because he didn't see some creep crawling up a wall. Quite the difference.
The reason Cyclops didn't see Toad crawling up the wall was because he was endeavoring to help Storm. Cyclops isn't a god. He doesn't have supersenses. He just has optic blasts.

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Also, Storm does get rid of Sabertooth. And Wolvie, well, he CAN'T win against Mags. EVER. How the hell can it be used as a comparison? I don't like it, but Cyke got shafted the worst in said scene.
If Wolverine can't win against Magneto, then how has he before? How the hell can you use Cyclops getting his visor ***** slapped from him as a comparison? How is he supposed to win then, either?

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Yeah, but he wouldn't have to aid her had the team not been divided (Logan's fault, but Cyke didn't manage to get him to stay put) and taken down so easily. Not quite his fault once again, but had they not gotten gotten caught off guard, it would've been to his credit.
Why? Logan would have been able to have handled Toad? Cyclops, Storm and Jean couldn't, and Logan couldn't handle Mystique (Who didn't HAVE a twenty foot tongue). Why would Logan have been able to handle Toad had he been there?

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Exactly WHAT does she do? See your own comment from above, too.
-Acts as the mutants' voice in the Senate.
-Is a doctor, presumably helps Xavier and Logan recover.
-Seems to helps Xavier take control of Sabertooth and Toad at the train station.
-Finds Rogue and helps decode Magneto's plans by using Cerebro, something she thought she couldn't do.
-Helps save the day by steadying Logan at Liberty Island.
-Is instrumental in helping Cyclops dispatch Sabertooth.

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Sigh. I've already said that taking down 4 opponents in like 20 seconds was roxor. It's just that the way he goes down seemed rather weak compared to his comic counterpart, not to mention THEY SHOT A LONGER VERSION OF SAID SCENE. I'm not saying Cyke should've WON the fight. Christ, even in the novel he at least TRIED to fight DeathStrike hand-to-hand. I was complaining about the directorial choices of said scene.
Didn't sound like it. Sounded like you were upset he went down with one hit.

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So we agree he's basically a plot tool. I don't like it. You don't mind. Fair enough.
Yes, he's a plot device to an extent, but so is Xavier in X2. Cyclops does have some great emotional stuff with Jean and Wolverine that pays off very nicely.

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Sure, I'll give you that one. Could've been anyone else, in that room. But it's still at his expense.
Then it's at his expense. So what? Everytime Cyclops gets beaten or captured in the comics it's at his expense too. Sort like how every time Logan gets his ass kicked in the movies it's at his expense. Why does this matter? I mean, like you said, Cyclops is a character who routinely gets shat on, even in the comics.

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Really? Somehow I think Stryker would give him a specific order to hold back and not blast the dam to pieces. That first blast aimed at Mags and Mystique wasn't much, really. A semi-hole in a wall? And the way he knocked over that jeep... At full or near full-power, he would've done much more serious damage. Like, ya know, cleaving it in two for starters.
Cyclops doesn't appear to be QUITE as powerful as he is in the comics in the films when he unloads. I'm talking about where he opens up on Jean. He's not holding back a whole lot there, and the movie makes that pretty clear.

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You forgot Sabertooth did so twice in X1, actually.
Yes I did. Thanks for reminding me.

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Still, my point was that he always gets taken down first and FAST.
Like Xavier. That's because Cyclops is their leader. Magneto and Stryker seem to use that as a strategy. Take Cyclops out of the equation. It's a good battle tactic. He gets taken down fast because he's a human. And he does take some serious punishment for the average human. Look what Toad does to him in X-MEN.

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I know it has to do with writing and how easily the good guys would win if he didn't get taken down everytime. Still, it annoys.
Thing is...before he got taken down by Deathstrike, he took her down. We saw him kick ass right before that. And in X-MEN, after he gets taken down, he comes back blasting, and takes out Sabertooth and Magneto, respectively.

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Yeah. I still think they didn't quite get it right. Somewhat, I'll concede. Still
not right IMO.
Then they didn't get it quite right. I'm not sure a grown man whaling on a grown man for a few cheap insults would have been very believeable. Nor do I want to see a character who is all about "control" losing control over such pathetic attempts to bait him. It still works in the context of their dynamic.

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The whole point was that it's somewhat unfair that he doesn't get to.
Yes it is. Although we do see the man kick some ass, and do some damage with his optic blasts. The movies didn't leave me going "I wish we'd seen what Cyclops can do".

Originally Posted by The Guard
I don't think it's that he doesn't get screwed over. He does, in terms of screentime and character fate and so forth.

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Thank you for at least admitting that.
Sure. I don't think there's much argument there.

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In the sense that he is what we got in the first ten issues of the comicbook?
In the sense that, other than depth, he feels and acts pretty much like the Cyclops of the comic books would if he were adapted to the real world.

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Sure. But then again, most characters were little more than cardboard cut-outs back then.
I disagree.

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As was said above, they just didn't spend much (aka more than 2 minutes) dealing with the whole self-doubting angsty angle of the persona, which, IMO, far outweighs the boyscout angle.
Well, there's the "I'll take care of them" and there's the "Could we have done more" scene. Not sure how long those last. You can kind of add the "grieving" scenes to that if you think about it. At least as far as angst goes.

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IMO, what they showed us in X1 was "he did OK, considering". The point is that comicverse Cyke he's a GOOD leader. Not PERFECT, but better than f****n OK. And whether we got that in X1 is pretty much open to debate.
I think you kind of have to add "considering" anytime the X-Men face down Magneto and the Brotherhood. I don't think it's open to debate at all.

In X-MEN, Cyclops...

Figures out Magneto's plan.
Strategizes their mission and approach.
Flies the X-Jet in
Leads them to Liberty, identifies the location of Magneto's machine
Saves Jean's life and displays quite a bit of skill when Toad slimes her.
Comes up with a plan to stop Magneto when they're captured
Comes up with another plan to stop Magneto later on.
Stops Magneto.

And that's just in the end of the movie. He's shown to be pretty damn competent when he and Storm rescue Wolverine and Rogue. That's a lot better than "ok" in my book.

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Fair enough. Still, he doesn't have much to be proud of.
Except for...all the stuff he did as an X-Man, saving Jean and half of New York in X-MEN.

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Comicverse Cyke would keep count and lose sleep over it. He'd blame himself for the professor's capture and Jean's death and go completely insane.
And that's comic book Cyclops.

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I KNOW that. That's what I expected/hoped for X3.

Hell, that should've been his story arc ever since Liberty Island. See the 'losing sleep over it' comment.

That's why I don't think they got Cyke right. They just so happen to overlook something which you refered to (and rightfully so) as a COMPLETE OBSESSION.

I'm sorry, that's just too much of an omission for me.
I can see where you're coming from, and yes, they omitted this aspect of Cyclops...but it doesn't really hurt how Scott appears in the movieverse. If anything, he seems a bit more stable, which may be a good thing, since, like you said, he's Logan's foil.

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It's just that movieverse Cyke essentially became Logan's foil and that one doesn't really have to look deep to find rather solid evidence indicating just that.
Ok. Foils exist. Storm serves as a foil for Wolverine at times. Doesn't make the existing characterization of a foil bad. It means that Cyclops wasn't the main character

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Old 01-02-2007, 02:54 PM   #121
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Default Re: Cyclops Returns(Old Thread Closed)

Oh dear.

You know what, fine.

I say he got screwed since day one. You don't. Whatever.



Apparently, the subtext of my rants wasn't clear enough.

In the comicverse, Cyke is easily the most important X-Men.

He's essentially, to use the IGN comparison, the Sauron to Xavier's Morgoth. If you want to use the good guys for said comparison, he'd be... what, the Aragorn to Xavier's Gandalf?

IMO, we didn't get that in the flicks. Not even close.

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Old 01-02-2007, 08:52 PM   #122
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Default Re: Cyclops Returns(Old Thread Closed)

You know, most of the Clawboy club members aren't reasonable, just like their beloved character. That's why I never bother to care about their opinions on Scott.

When we say something about Fox didn't follow Cyclops' and some other characters' true character, they always give you this kind of lame answer- "Well, that's comic Cyclops/Storm/OC", as if this movie isn't based on the famous comics but is actually some original film with similar background and lineup so there is no need to stick by X-Men's basic settings.

Sure, Cyclops is not the main character in the movie, but neither is Wolverine. I wonder why they just never use the same standard regarding the same issue.
And Cyclops is the most important X-Men not because of his powers but his personality and position as their leader, while in the movie Fox just kept putting other characters' (not just Cyclops) characteristics on Wolverine, like they were too afraid of admitting that Wolverine is just Wolverine, the ruthless guy with shiny claws and unbearably annoying (IMO, but most people seem to think of that as "manly") attitude, nothing more, and if they didn't use something to cover up the fact, the audience and Wolverine fans would be too pissed off to watch X3!

But I think we should stop right here, after all this is Cyclops/Marsden thread, the last peaceful place where Cyclops fans can chat happily and carefree, let's not turn this thread into another "If you don't like this movie..." thread and ruin everybody's good mood.

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Old 01-02-2007, 09:56 PM   #123
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Default Re: Cyclops Returns(Old Thread Closed)

Just dropping by... Happy New Year to all you X-Men/Cyke fans out there. Best wishes to all in a brand new year that doesn't feel like that brand new. lol

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Old 01-03-2007, 05:26 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by UraniaChang
You know, most of the Clawboy club members aren't reasonable, just like their beloved character. That's why I never bother to care about their opinions on Scott.

When we say something about Fox didn't follow Cyclops' and some other characters' true character, they always give you this kind of lame answer- "Well, that's comic Cyclops/Storm/OC", as if this movie isn't based on the famous comics but is actually some original film with similar background and lineup so there is no need to stick by X-Men's basic settings.

Sure, Cyclops is not the main character in the movie, but neither is Wolverine. I wonder why they just never use the same standard regarding the same issue.
And Cyclops is the most important X-Men not because of his powers but his personality and position as their leader, while in the movie Fox just kept putting other characters' (not just Cyclops) characteristics on Wolverine, like they were too afraid of admitting that Wolverine is just Wolverine, the ruthless guy with shiny claws and unbearably annoying (IMO, but most people seem to think of that as "manly") attitude, nothing more, and if they didn't use something to cover up the fact, the audience and Wolverine fans would be too pissed off to watch X3!
Eh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UraniaChang
But I think we should stop right here, after all this is Cyclops/Marsden thread, the last peaceful place where Cyclops fans can chat happily and carefree, let's not turn this thread into another "If you don't like this movie..." thread and ruin everybody's good mood.
Good call.

Will most likely use next post in a "Cyke Roxor" capacity...

EDIT: CLAWBOY!!!??? rotflmao

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Old 01-03-2007, 05:37 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by bexta89
Happy New Year everyone! I hope 2007 is just as good as 2006, if not better! And to kick things off:





They're from the Superman Returns Premier, but I'm not sure where I found them. Been on my computer for ages. You've probably seen them already, but, and Jimmy is good Jimmy

Edit: And yes, I know they aren't Cyclops pics, but wasn't the last thread about cyclops AND Marsde?
All saw them. Still, nice pics.

They're just too funny as part of a mostly Cyke-oriented thread, though.

Come on, we'd all die of laughter to see Cyke smile like that.


And a happy new year too. Can't remember if I said so in this thread or another, but what the hell...

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