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Old 02-18-2018, 03:48 PM   #601
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Default Re: General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - - Part 13

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Originally Posted by MOVIELORD101 View Post
I've been a Star Wars fan since i was 3. AND I didn't care much for the prequels. If i had a problem with TLJ, I'd be SCREAMING to the hills about it. And I didn't. I feel most people were angry b/c their theories didn't pan out (at least, that's what it comes off as to me). Which is BS reasoning. I'm not saying that to sound ignorant. I had my own theories re: certain bits (Rey being Luke's daughter was what I was banking on) and I sure as hell didn't throw a tantrum online b/c i was proven wrong.

Also, Luke was NOT "ruined" as so many are claiming. That is honestly false. Yes, on PAPER, Luke's initial consideration to killing Ben seems rash, BUT, bear in mind: it was a split-second thought and he COULDN'T NOR DIDN'T DO IT! It's not like he went full Jack Torrence on Ben with his lightsaber or something. That's not what happened. Also, look at Ben's penchant for ridiculously violent tantrums in this and TFA. He probably exhibited it during training. Plus, we don't KNOW yet what Snoke told him or HOW he met Ben! And probably won't for a long time! We still have a massive 30-year gap worth of stories to fill. The whole point of Luke's arc in this movie is that he went into hiding b/c he ****ed up and the lesson he ultimately learns was him realizing that he can't let failure bog him down and to both move on and learn from his mistakes. Which made sense. Lastly, the ending showdown with Ben on Crait was GENIUS. I was FULLY prepped for Luke to actually be there and just get skewered like Han did and for me to start crying like a baby in the theater (lol). What we got instead was POWERFUL stuff IMO. As for that bit with the kid and the broom at the end? It's just there to reenforce Luke's point: there will ALWAYS be more Jedi even after he's gone. The kid himself is otherwise not meant to be a major character.

And for the record, I've LISTENED to all the complaints people had about TLJ, and all of them are just contradicted by WHAT'S IN THE ACTUAL DAMN MOVIE. It's like they were half paying attention the whole time or just wanted to focus on wether or not THEIR headcannons were right! And the worst part? Any time ANYONE's tried to honestly defend this movie, such as Tony Goldmark or "I Hate Everything" (yes, even HE liked the movie) for example, the angry fanboys on the internet scoff at their comments and just blow them off without even LISTENING to what they have to say! THIS is why I'm peeved at the TLJ haters: this is nothing new. These people have acted entitled since 1997 and it's getting old! Their behavior makes me ashamed to call myself a Star Wars fan; I don't want to be associated like over-demanding, fan-service craving brats like them!
If you think that people here were just angry because their theories didn't pan out then you haven't read the discussions here. Defenders were using that when the film was just released and such arguments were thoroughly refuted with clear references to posts that showed differently.

Whether Luke was ruined is entirely subjective so you claiming that's false, in a manner that sounds like you're establishing fact rather than just disagreeing, sounds weird.

Since you say that most people were angry due to unfulfilled theories then you can't have read all the complaints. I don't like TLJ much and I didn't even have any theories of what was to be, I just wanted the film to bring something new. Ergo I can't possibly have complained about that theories I didn't have didn't get fulfilled. I've seen many that have stated their views in the same manner as I did.

As for angry, nonconstructive fanboys, those are available on both sides and I think they are equally annoying. I don't care if some of those happen to agree with me, they are just as annoying as the ones that don't because people having different opinions shouldn't matter to grown ups, it's the attitude they have towards it that can get annoying. To just point to the other side becomes intellectually dishonest.

Lastly I'll point out that I don't think your post addressed the point I was making in the post you quoted. I see nothing in your post that addressed whether it's good or bad to give more room to the people that actually are racist and/or sexist.

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Old 02-18-2018, 04:14 PM   #602
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Default Re: General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - - Part 13

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Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
If you think that people here were just angry because their theories didn't pan out then you haven't read the discussions here. Defenders were using that when the film was just released and such arguments were thoroughly refuted with clear references to posts that showed differently.

Whether Luke was ruined is entirely subjective so you claiming that's false, in a manner that sounds like you're establishing fact rather than just disagreeing, sounds weird.

Since you say that most people were angry due to unfulfilled theories then you can't have read all the complaints. I don't like TLJ much and I didn't even have any theories of what was to be, I just wanted the film to bring something new. Ergo I can't possibly have complained about that theories I didn't have didn't get fulfilled. I've seen many that have stated their views in the same manner as I did.

As for angry, nonconstructive fanboys, those are available on both sides and I think they are equally annoying. I don't care if some of those happen to agree with me, they are just as annoying as the ones that don't because people having different opinions shouldn't matter to grown ups, it's the attitude they have towards it that can get annoying. To just point to the other side becomes intellectually dishonest.

Lastly I'll point out that I don't think your post addressed the point I was making in the post you quoted. I see nothing in your post that addressed whether it's good or bad to give more room to the people that actually are racist and/or sexist.
Yeah this whole narrative of "People didn't like TLJ because they're theories didn't come true/they had different expectations" is so dumb. The whole trying to reduce other people's legitimate gripes is silly. It's funny because I see members on here doing the same thing after they called out the Snyderheads for doing the same thing with the DCEU. And I like TLJ.

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Old 02-18-2018, 10:56 PM   #603
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Default Re: General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - - Part 13

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Well, if the past is any indication, I'd expect you of all folks to agree with that answer specifically.

But as Blackman just mentioned, there's literally no point in even addressing this. It adds fuel to the fire of an already divisive film and ignores the larger reasons why people are split in The Last Jedi. Why even focus on the women specifically?
He was addressing a very specific point that you wanted to ignore the actual question he was answering to complain. What you wrote completely avoids what was asked and what JJ actually said.

Though to address the other reasons would be to address people being upset that their theories didn't pan out, that the Force is not limited to telekinesis and shooting lighting out of your hands, that someone didn't write Luke Skywalker as infallible and because Canto Bight was pretty lame. The first three are nonsense and the last would be stepping on another director's toes. Why would he do that?

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Old 02-19-2018, 05:13 AM   #604
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Default Re: General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - - Part 13

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It's so dumb. Why do people keep addressing the trolls and the racists, sexists, etc?
You're not going to change their minds. No one is going to be like "Wow JJ Abrams called me sexist. I should change my ways"

You're just giving these dummies the attention they want. They live off that nonsense. Ignore them and don't give them anything.

Anyway, yeah it's clear that JJ was only talking to a certain section. But several outlets are using click bait headlines to make it seem like he's talking to everyone :
I don't know why it's necessary to ask JJ about this, because you already know what he's going to say. If you have been given time with JJ why not ask something interesting.

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Old 02-19-2018, 06:10 AM   #605
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Default Re: General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - - Part 13

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I don't know why it's necessary to ask JJ about this, because you already know what he's going to say. If you have been given time with JJ why not ask something interesting.
That too.

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Old 02-19-2018, 07:15 AM   #606
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Default Re: General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - - Part 13

I see the defenders are still going to straw men in order to represent the arguments that people don't like. How boring.

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Old 02-19-2018, 09:24 AM   #607
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Default Re: General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - - Part 13

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Probably the best HISHE ever, and it addressed many issues that I had with TLJ, especially the ending. I wish they'd fan edit TLJ for that part at least.

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Old 02-19-2018, 05:13 PM   #608
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Default Re: General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - - Part 13

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I see the defenders are still going to straw men in order to represent the arguments that people don't like. How boring.
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Old 02-19-2018, 07:31 PM   #609
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Default Re: General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - - Part 13

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Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
I see the defenders are still going to straw men in order to represent the arguments that people don't like. How boring.
It's always the sign of a winning argument to attack the posters and not the posts.

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Old 02-19-2018, 07:37 PM   #610
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Default Re: General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - - Part 13

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Yeah this whole narrative of "People didn't like TLJ because they're theories didn't come true/they had different expectations" is so dumb. The whole trying to reduce other people's legitimate gripes is silly. It's funny because I see members on here doing the same thing after they called out the Snyderheads for doing the same thing with the DCEU. And I like TLJ.
What qualifies as a legitimate gripe? Because theoretically everything that one gripes about is legitimate.

I think the Luke Skywalker situations is telling for a few reasons. From as storytelling point of view what is wrong with Luke's story exactly? And I say this as Luke is my favorite character in fiction and one I wanted to end this whole story alive and well.

I definitely have problems with the film. Specifically the battle on Crait, Finn and Poe's storylines in general, how they theoretically gave us Rey's heritage, and I wanted more of Luke/Rey, more R2 and a real moment with Chewie and Luke. But the arguments over Luke and Rey's heritage do feel like they get into head canon. Nothing about Luke's roll betrayals who he is as a character. If anything, it enforces it.

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Old 02-19-2018, 10:39 PM   #611
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Default Re: General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - - Part 13

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What qualifies as a legitimate gripe? Because theoretically everything that one gripes about is legitimate.

I think the Luke Skywalker situations is telling for a few reasons. From as storytelling point of view what is wrong with Luke's story exactly? And I say this as Luke is my favorite character in fiction and one I wanted to end this whole story alive and well.

I definitely have problems with the film. Specifically the battle on Crait, Finn and Poe's storylines in general, how they theoretically gave us Rey's heritage, and I wanted more of Luke/Rey, more R2 and a real moment with Chewie and Luke. But the arguments over Luke and Rey's heritage do feel like they get into head canon. Nothing about Luke's roll betrayals who he is as a character. If anything, it enforces it.
If I may, I tend to think that the issue with Luke in TLJ isn't a matter of direction for the character as much as it is a matter of the extent to which that direction is pursued. Luke as the broken Jedi Master traumatized by his failure with Ben and extremely reluctant to even impart an iota of knowledge on Rey fits with what we saw TFA, and flows pretty organically from the OT hero failing his family in their third generation. But Luke not expressing even a modicum of moral obligation to get back into the fight after the events of TFA, or having given up so much on the Jedi that he isn't even trying to see where he screwed up in his teachings? That's a bit too much for the idea.

This is one of those areas where I think everyone at Lucasfilm neglected to analyze the real human cost or political fallout of the Hosnian Prime destruction from TFA; I think it was largely viewed as a "Get the Republic out of here, so we can go back to the Rebellion, because that $#!+ never gets old!" (Which I vehemently disagree with). *Tens of Billions* of beings have been murdered, and genocidal maniacs are marching to take over the Galaxy again. Luke should at the very least acknowledge the pull of "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility;" succumbing to his own insecurities and self-doubt can work, but that internal struggle *needs* to be present.

He may be disgusted with "Luke Skywalker, the legend" but honestly, the Galaxy needs Captain Skywalker of the Rebel Alliance at least, as someone who can try to help save lives, and Luke should *feel* that. Han felt that, dropping everything to rejoin the Resistance once it became clear he could help; that's part of why Han's character in TFA feels consistent with his character growth in the OT. And Luke's apathy is why it feels inconsistent and less planned in TLJ.

It's a storyline that feels like it works very well in this film by itself, but not in the context of the Saga, where the PT, for all its myriad failures at dialogue, direction, and acting, still used a strong political plotline as part of its meta-narrative, or the OT, where Luke had enough familiar conventional heroic traits that wanting to abandon the Galaxy entirely and not feel the pull of compassion for everyone else feels... illogical.

And with Rey, to me it's less a matter of them ignoring my hoped-for Rey Skywalker theory, and more that Rian Johnson doubled down on the mystery box treatment of the subject, even though he himself knew that the appeal of the Rey Anonymous reveal was in the *aftershocks;* when Rey is deprived of the ease of assimilating a family's legacy into her identity, then her journey to forge her own becomes immense and dramatic. But TLJ pushes that exciting journey out of this film and (hopefully) into IX, since it wraps up Rey's story immediately after the anticlimax to her identity journey. So what we're left with is an exaggerated version of the empty mystery box from TFA, since Rey's parentage actually wasn't as big of a deal in that film in regards to her personal arc, and since she effectively went through the exact same reveal while talking to Maz Kanata (tearful acceptance and everything.)

It feels like Johnson chose the most challenging answer to Rey's parentage in terms of storytelling potential in this saga, but failed to see the dramatic weight of it.

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Old 02-20-2018, 04:15 AM   #612
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Default Re: General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - - Part 13

Empire Strikes Back - Darkest
Revenge of the Sith - Most Tragic
Last Jedi - Most Controversial

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Old 02-20-2018, 08:39 AM   #613
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Default Re: General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - - Part 13

I finalllllly got to see this recently which is shocking because I’m always there every opening night. But either way finally got to see it and I really don’t understand some of the overreactions at all. Personally loved the film and a lot of the choices made and things it did.

The stuff with Finn and Rose was probably my least favorite part, but I didn’t think the Canto Bight stuff was horrendous. Just a weaker side story. I loved everything with Luke, Rey, Kylo and Snoke. It all worked very well for me and Daisy and Adam once again brought it in their respective roles. Also there was lots of beautiful imagery. Some amazing stuff.

I dunno this flowed very well for me from TFA and felt like a natural progression and Luke being in the frame of mind he was at the beginning of the film also made a lot of sense.

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Old 02-20-2018, 08:59 AM   #614
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Default Re: General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - - Part 13

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No, there are always going to be people who disagree with you. Here, and in real life. Remember to respect that.
I have no problems with people that disagree with me, and since I do respect that I don't try to formulate their opinions for them. It's those that try to represent one side's opinions in an erroneous way that lack respect for it.

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Old 02-20-2018, 09:03 AM   #615
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Default Re: General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - - Part 13

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It's always the sign of a winning argument to attack the posters and not the posts.
That could have been a good post if it wasn't for that the actual "attack" was the comment on the content (the straw men was clearly written to be the negative point). Calling people defenders is not a derogatory term, neither is calling the other side detractors.

So if you care about winning online arguments I suggest reading more carefully so the points become clear.

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Old 02-20-2018, 10:45 AM   #616
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Old 02-20-2018, 03:56 PM   #617
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Default Re: General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - - Part 13

14 deleted scenes and a feature length documentary...


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Old 02-20-2018, 05:12 PM   #618
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I hope someone uploads the bonus features and deleted scenes to YouTube because I have to plan or desire to buy this movie.

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Old 02-21-2018, 03:08 PM   #619
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If I may, I tend to think that the issue with Luke in TLJ isn't a matter of direction for the character as much as it is a matter of the extent to which that direction is pursued. Luke as the broken Jedi Master traumatized by his failure with Ben and extremely reluctant to even impart an iota of knowledge on Rey fits with what we saw TFA, and flows pretty organically from the OT hero failing his family in their third generation. But Luke not expressing even a modicum of moral obligation to get back into the fight after the events of TFA, or having given up so much on the Jedi that he isn't even trying to see where he screwed up in his teachings? That's a bit too much for the idea.

This is one of those areas where I think everyone at Lucasfilm neglected to analyze the real human cost or political fallout of the Hosnian Prime destruction from TFA; I think it was largely viewed as a "Get the Republic out of here, so we can go back to the Rebellion, because that $#!+ never gets old!" (Which I vehemently disagree with). *Tens of Billions* of beings have been murdered, and genocidal maniacs are marching to take over the Galaxy again. Luke should at the very least acknowledge the pull of "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility;" succumbing to his own insecurities and self-doubt can work, but that internal struggle *needs* to be present.

He may be disgusted with "Luke Skywalker, the legend" but honestly, the Galaxy needs Captain Skywalker of the Rebel Alliance at least, as someone who can try to help save lives, and Luke should *feel* that. Han felt that, dropping everything to rejoin the Resistance once it became clear he could help; that's part of why Han's character in TFA feels consistent with his character growth in the OT. And Luke's apathy is why it feels inconsistent and less planned in TLJ.

It's a storyline that feels like it works very well in this film by itself, but not in the context of the Saga, where the PT, for all its myriad failures at dialogue, direction, and acting, still used a strong political plotline as part of its meta-narrative, or the OT, where Luke had enough familiar conventional heroic traits that wanting to abandon the Galaxy entirely and not feel the pull of compassion for everyone else feels... illogical.

And with Rey, to me it's less a matter of them ignoring my hoped-for Rey Skywalker theory, and more that Rian Johnson doubled down on the mystery box treatment of the subject, even though he himself knew that the appeal of the Rey Anonymous reveal was in the *aftershocks;* when Rey is deprived of the ease of assimilating a family's legacy into her identity, then her journey to forge her own becomes immense and dramatic. But TLJ pushes that exciting journey out of this film and (hopefully) into IX, since it wraps up Rey's story immediately after the anticlimax to her identity journey. So what we're left with is an exaggerated version of the empty mystery box from TFA, since Rey's parentage actually wasn't as big of a deal in that film in regards to her personal arc, and since she effectively went through the exact same reveal while talking to Maz Kanata (tearful acceptance and everything.)

It feels like Johnson chose the most challenging answer to Rey's parentage in terms of storytelling potential in this saga, but failed to see the dramatic weight of it.
Couldn’t have said it better. Those are very much my issues with the Luke story, along with the fact that Luke’s issues amount to “Yoda and Obi-Wan were arrogant and I suck at being a teacher/mentor.” I admit I was expecting Luke to have learned something more profound about the connection between the Jedi and Sith (and perhaps that they were, after all, almost alike in every way because they came from the same place, or because the Jedi actually deviated from the original teachings). But beyond my specific desires, I was very much expecting Luke to have some other grounded reason for why he felt light side wielders were problematic as a concept, and I think that’s reasonable. But he never delved further than his one statement about not owning the Force.

And I’ve said all I need or want to say on Rey’s arc going in circles.

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Old 02-21-2018, 03:20 PM   #620
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Default Re: General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - - Part 13

Anybody see Black Panther as a sister film to this, thematically? Both films are about rejecting the dogmas of the old and forging a new path.

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Old 02-21-2018, 05:40 PM   #621
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Anybody see Black Panther as a sister film to this, thematically? Both films are about rejecting the dogmas of the old and forging a new path.
I didn't notice the similarities to TLJ exactly, but after seeing it one of my friends pointed out the similarities to Star Wars in general. He said "it's basically a Star Wars movie."

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Old 02-22-2018, 01:17 AM   #622
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Anybody see Black Panther as a sister film to this, thematically? Both films are about rejecting the dogmas of the old and forging a new path.
Not particularly.

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Old 02-24-2018, 06:40 AM   #623
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Default Re: General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - - Part 13

Umm someone supposedly leaked a pic of the first page of the TLJ novelization and the first line is a doozy:





If the page is real it's probably a dream scene, a dream of what he might have had if his life had went a different direction, but even if its only a dream it's a pretty big thing to leave out of the film.

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Old 02-24-2018, 06:47 AM   #624
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They're just pandering by marketing the novel (which is not canon where it doesn't align with the film - can and will be ignored by the next movie) as the equivalent of TLJ: Special Edition.

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Old 02-24-2018, 07:03 AM   #625
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They're just pandering by marketing the novel (which is not canon where it doesn't align with the film - can and will be ignored by the next movie) as the equivalent of TLJ: Special Edition.
And this matters, why?

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The Most Astounding Fact (Neil deGrasse Tyson, HD):
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