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Old 05-20-2013, 11:07 PM   #226
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

Ugh, no Glover. The rest are cool choices.

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Old 05-21-2013, 01:20 AM   #227
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123 View Post
Isolationism doesn't necessarily have to look like arrogance or racism. People are isolationist for all kinds of reasons. Some people don't like nation building , others don't like war, and then some still oppose any form of conquest.

It can be very clear how reasonable isolationism can be if the villains pretend to want diplomacy but are revealed to really be after vibranium.

Basically give the audience a beginner course on why imperialism sucks.

Yeah, I have no problem with multi-racial heroes and villains to remove any racist connotation.
Exactly! The trick then is, the audience doesn't know/feel that way at the beginning, so you cannot count on them to admire/respect Wakanda and its anti-imperialist stance until the third act.

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I don't think the general audience is that dumb that they don't understand what Imperialism is. There is no quantum science to it, its really simple they have something we want so we are going to take it because we think we have the right to. They've seen it in Dancing with Wolves, the Last Samurai, Last of the Mohicans and recently Avatar but in those movies the hero was white so the whole things gets looked over. Most people are gonna see it for what it as an entertaining movie and nothing more. There is too much over thinking with Black Panther.
That's a really good point. Maybe they do. The hero of the Imperialism movies is always white, so that the audience doesn't have to feel like it's part of the problem. Same reason King Schultz made/saved Django and killed the villain. T'Challa doesn't afford them that much grace. But maybe I'm just overthinking. Maybe Dancing With Wolves, Last Samurai and Last of the Mohicans would have bee just as popular if people from those actual cultures had been the heroes. Maybe race really is a thing of the past.

Maybe not though.

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Old 05-21-2013, 02:59 AM   #228
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

Not sure why a Black Panther movie needs to be about Imperialism - I guess it could be touched upon how Wakanda has remained a sovereign nation all of it's history resisting aggression from Europe, Arabia, and other African Nations - but not the real thrust of the movie.

Now it would be interesting and topical if threats to Africa like the Arab Spring were addressed in this movie - but I don't see that happening.

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Old 05-21-2013, 06:07 AM   #229
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

I'm not sure everyone feels the Arab Spring is necessarily a bad thing for North Africa.

It got rid of quite a few cruel dictators in favor of democracy. It's debatable if this is ultimately best for the citizens living in these areas.

Imperialism, on the other hand, has had a crippling and lasting effect on much of sub-Saharan Africa which is why Vibranium has always been central part of Wakanda's struggle to maintain a justified independence.

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Old 05-21-2013, 06:44 AM   #230
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

I doubt Marvel will go into the politics of imperialism in Black Panther. Marvel avoided Nazism in Captain America.
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Jamie Foxx after Django Unchained is a global star.

We'll see how much pull he really has when White House Down is released.

I'm not saying I'd want him for Black Panther but he is one of the few black actors with real star power.
Avi Arad wanted Jamie Foxx as Luke Cage back in the day.

I think Amazing Spider-Man 2 will give a bigger boost to Foxx career than White House Down. ASM2 will reach a far larger global audience as a big superhero franchise.

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Old 05-21-2013, 07:02 AM   #231
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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I doubt Marvel will go into the politics of imperialism in Black Panther. Marvel avoided Nazism in Captain America.
Yet they toyed with The War on Terror in IM3.


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Avi Arad wanted Jamie Foxx as Luke Cage back in the day.

I think Amazing Spider-Man 2 will give a bigger boost to Foxx career than White House Down. ASM2 will reach a far larger global audience as a big superhero franchise.
I don't think dressing up like Steve Urkel and getting covered in neon blue paint is going to solidify Jamie Foxx's A-list status.

but it probably won't hurt.

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Old 05-21-2013, 07:20 AM   #232
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

They toyed with the war on terror and then turned away from it and played the character for laughs.

Shane Black and Drew Pierce said Marvel/Disney didn't want them touching the demon in a bottle alcoholism stuff. These are family films at the end of the day and Marvel/Disney don't want to offend or tick off people by doing some of the controversial topics they did in the comics in their popcorn action flicks.

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Old 05-21-2013, 07:32 AM   #233
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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They toyed with the war on terror and then turned away from it and played the character for laughs.

Shane Black and Drew Pierce said Marvel/Disney didn't want them touching the demon in a bottle alcoholism stuff. These are family films at the end of the day and Marvel/Disney don't want to offend or tick off people by doing some of the controversial topics they did in the comics in their popcorn action flicks.
It came off as a joke but I don't think suggesting Bin Laden was a clueless and paid actor to empower defense contractors is as innocent as you might think.

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Old 05-21-2013, 10:14 AM   #234
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

I highly doubt IM3 was making such a statement on purpose.People are gonna get different meaning out of it however these movies are suppose to be shallow action flicks like Pirates of the Caribbean.

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Old 05-21-2013, 10:25 AM   #235
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I highly doubt IM3 was making such a statement on purpose.People are gonna get different meaning out of it however these movies are suppose to be shallow action flicks like Pirates of the Caribbean.
I don't know how much more obvious they'd have to be with the "9-11 truther" symbolism.

We all know Mandarin was supposed to be Bin Laden-like pawn and his attacks were actually conducted by defense contractors to obtain more power.

None of that is debatable.

Imperialism is child's play compared to any symbolism remotely related to 9-11 and the War on Terror even without pointing the finger at American defense contractors.

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Old 05-21-2013, 10:28 AM   #236
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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They toyed with the war on terror and then turned away from it and played the character for laughs.

Shane Black and Drew Pierce said Marvel/Disney didn't want them touching the demon in a bottle alcoholism stuff. These are family films at the end of the day and Marvel/Disney don't want to offend or tick off people by doing some of the controversial topics they did in the comics in their popcorn action flicks.
Plus, they covered that ground in IM2 - so why repeat yourself this early in the game.

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Old 05-21-2013, 10:37 AM   #237
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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I'm not sure everyone feels the Arab Spring is necessarily a bad thing for North Africa.

It got rid of quite a few cruel dictators in favor of democracy. It's debatable if this is ultimately best for the citizens living in these areas.

Imperialism, on the other hand, has had a crippling and lasting effect on much of sub-Saharan Africa which is why Vibranium has always been central part of Wakanda's struggle to maintain a justified independence.
Isn't the jury still out on that one - if it truly is a democratic movement or a front for folks with less nobel intentions? Let's hope they are true to their word, but maybe a better example could have been found.

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Old 05-21-2013, 10:43 AM   #238
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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I don't know how much more obvious they'd have to be with the "9-11 truther" symbolism.

We all know Mandarin was supposed to be Bin Laden-like pawn and his attacks were actually conducted by defense contractors to obtain more power.

None of that is debatable.

Imperialism is child's play compared to any symbolism remotely related to 9-11 and the War on Terror even without pointing the finger at American defense contractors.
Thats assuming the general public gives that kind of validity to those kind of theories which is a huge assumption. I know people tend to think cooperation are evil money hungry faceless and soul entities. However i don't think anyone that isn't some conspiracy nut could believe defense contractors would kill 5,000 people in one day such as in the 9/11 attacks for profit. For me it is more likely they didn't want to make the Mandarin someone who is this racially charged character the villain. I've heard that character called the most racist character in comics, I think they wanted to avoid this connection rather than make a comment on Terror.

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Old 05-21-2013, 10:45 AM   #239
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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Isn't the jury still out on that one - if it truly is a democratic movement or a front for folks with less nobel intentions? Let's hope they are true to their word, but maybe a better example could have been found.
Some would argue most forms of democracy are a front for folks with less noble intentions, including the United States's current version.

At the end of the day, the Arab Spring brought down various dictators in the name of democracy.

You can't vilify it in a major blockbuster movie without giving a good reason.

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Old 05-21-2013, 10:55 AM   #240
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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Thats assuming the general public gives that kind of validity to those kind of theories which is a huge assumption. I know people tend to think cooperation are evil money hungry faceless and soul entities. However i don't think anyone that isn't some conspiracy nut could believe defense contractors would kill 5,000 people in one day such as in the 9/11 attacks for profit. For me it is more likely they didn't want to make the Mandarin someone who is this racially charged character the villain. I've heard that character called the most racist character in comics, I think they wanted to avoid this connection rather than make a comment on Terror.
I'm not arguing that 9-11 was an inside job or that mainstream audiences should or would accept such a thing as fact.

I'm simply pointing out that Marvel is not afraid to explore controversial political territory.

1) The Mandarin obviously represents Bin Ladin.

2) The Mandarin obviously works for American defense contractors.

You can pretend the intended subtext here is just in a few crazy people's interpretation but it's as plain as day. There's no reason in wasting time denying it.

Imperialism is child's play compared to the political ideas toyed with in IM3.

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Old 05-21-2013, 10:57 AM   #241
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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I'm not arguing that 9-11 was an inside job or that mainstream audiences should or would accept such a thing as fact.

I'm simply pointing out that Marvel in not afraid to explore controversial political territory.

1) The Mandarin obviously represents Bin Ladin.

2) Mandarin obviously works for defense contractors.

You can pretend the intended subtext here is just in a few crazy people's interpretation but it's as plain as day. There's no reason in wasting time denying it.
and again how deep into that did they go?

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Old 05-21-2013, 11:05 AM   #242
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and again how deep into that did they go?
Even suggesting Mandarin is similar to a Bin Laden-type who works for American defense contractors is very "deep" territory. They didn't have to go further.

It was subversive and thought provoking by itself.

I'm not asking for a thesis on imperialism, only that outside forces conspire for Wakanda's vibranium which validates Black Panther's weariness of outsiders.

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Old 05-21-2013, 11:11 AM   #243
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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Even suggesting Mandarin is similar to a Bin Laden-type who works for American defense contractors is very "deep" territory. They didn't have to go further.

It was subversive and thought provoking by itself.

I'm not asking for a thesis on imperialism, only that outside forces conspire for Wakanda's vibranium which validates Black Panther's weariness of outsiders.
and that is probably what we will get

I think it would have been thought provoking to a lot more people if Ben Kingsley wasn't doing a Russell Brand imitation

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Old 05-21-2013, 11:15 AM   #244
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and that is probably what we will get

I think it would have been thought provoking to a lot more people if Ben Kingsley wasn't doing a Russell Brand imitation
I think they had to sugar coat the subtext somewhat.

After all, it is a superhero movie for families at the end of the day.

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Old 05-21-2013, 11:19 AM   #245
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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I'm not arguing that 9-11 was an inside job or that mainstream audiences should or would accept such a thing as fact.

I'm simply pointing out that Marvel is not afraid to explore controversial political territory.

1) The Mandarin obviously represents Bin Ladin.

2) The Mandarin obviously works for American defense contractors.

You can pretend the intended subtext here is just in a few crazy people's interpretation but it's as plain as day. There's no reason in wasting time denying it.

Imperialism is child's play compared to the political ideas toyed with in IM3.
Shane Black said in a 2011 comic con that the Mandarin is a racial caricature a Fu Manchu.When Kevin Fiege was talking about a BP movie he said it would be "difficult" he also called Mandarin " yellow Perril", these are not people who want to touch sensitive racial issues. A white tech villain fighting a white tech hero is safer at the box office which is their bottom line.

Mandarin is a terrorist and terrorist send in videos this is not exclusive to Bin Laden.

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Old 05-21-2013, 11:22 AM   #246
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

lmao

You're not even willing admit a Mandarin/Bin Laden resemblance.

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Old 05-21-2013, 11:41 AM   #247
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

Sir Ben Kingsley has Arab blood in him and he has a beard in the movie. However how many Chinese kungfu masters have the same exact look as Sir Ben in that movie?

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Old 05-21-2013, 01:23 PM   #248
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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Sir Ben Kingsley has Arab blood in him and he has a beard in the movie. However how many Chinese kungfu masters have the same exact look as Sir Ben in that movie?
Sir Ben has Indian blood in him and personally I know not one kung fu master who looks like him. Do you really wanna deny the IbnLadin resemblance? Good luck but you will have to try harder than that.

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Old 05-21-2013, 02:13 PM   #249
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Show me the resemblance beside the beards and Ben Kingsley's tan skin? You are drawing that conclusion because that is what you choose to see. This is the same point the movie is making just because it looks sorta like a duck and acts like a duck doesn't mean its a duck. Is the Mandarin a wearing a turban? Is the Mandarin in traditional Arab robes? he is wearing freaking Asian robes he far more resembles an Asian than a Arab.

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Old 05-21-2013, 02:32 PM   #250
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2) The Mandarin obviously works for American defense contractors.
I seemed to have missed the part where it was suggested or established that Killian and AIM are American.
I know Tony meets Killian and Rebecca Hall in Europe, and Killian and Hall are played by a British actors - so I guess that adds up to AIM being an American defense contractor.

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