Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is Here

[Thread Manager]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is Here

[Roose Bolton]

Final Crisis was Grant trying to do something different, a different kind of "event" comic, so it's fairly different in structure than his usual stuff.


Also on the matter of Inc ending with Damian's death, am I the only one who feels that that would be almost...I dunno..."counter Morrison" ? I mean this is the same guy who wrote himself into a comic so that he could resurrect Animal Man's family, the same guy who had Superman overcome death itself and go on to fix the sun, the same guy who "killed" Bruce Wayne and then had him fight his way through time itself to defeat the God of Evil. I can't help but think that this death stuff is just a red herring, or if not, something that he'll reverse in some glorious and uplifting manner in the finale.

[JewishHobbit]

I sat down a coupe weeks go and read Morrison's Batman run, including Final Crisis, and it really did feel disjointed. It started great if you read ONLY his stuff and skip the Resurrection of Ra's Al Ghul (as it isn't needed or referenced) through R.I.P. That was all great. Then Final Crisis starts and makes no sense with how R.I.P. ended so that took me out of the story. Final Crisis itself is so confusing that on my 3rd read I'm just starting to grasp it's epicness (and that's if you read ALL of Morrison's tie-in issus). Then Batman & Robin was a return to greatness but then that fell apart in the end when you read Return of Bruce Wayne. And in the midst of those titles there's also a 2-part tie-in in Batman that explains the gap between R.I.P. and Final Crisis, so there's extra there to read. It was just too much to wrap my brain around. I still don't quite fathom the later portions of the Return of Bruce Wayne. Then Inc. just sorta moves into a new, fairly uninteresting direction that's been dragging out for too long and feels like a 3rd or 4th tier title.

It is a very disjointed read and definately reads like Morrison was high while writing it. It started strongly and the middle was good, but the rest I haven't cared for. I do love some of his characters though: Damian, Professor Pyg, and Doctor Hurt.

[CConn]

That's because Morrison was high while writing it.

[Maximus One]

Due to Final Crisis' thickness I decided to read this Booster Gold Tomorrow Memory trade I bought first instead. Is Final Crisis really that weird and confusing though?

[Cain]

I hear it reads better in collected form. When it was coming out as floppies though yeah it pretty much threw everyone for a loop. So much material was coming out and people didn't know where to start and continue. DC handled the event extremely sloppily and because of editorial's incompetence most readers paid the prize and were left scratching their heads.

Once you realize that only about 2 of the non-Morrison tie-ins matter as well as the fact that ALL of the Morrison tie-ins (the Tattoo Man/Black Lightning one shot, Superman Beyond, the Batman stuff etc.) were greatly supplemental to the overall narrative it's much easier to digest on a re-read. It took me one re-read after it had been published to really truly finally get it all.

[CConn]

Still, it requires a ton of preexisting knowledge to fully grasp it.

[Cain]

Originally Posted by CConn

Still, it requires a ton of preexisting knowledge to fully grasp it.

That is a good point though. I think the fact that I had been reading DC books for 20 years when it was published helped me a lot more with my understanding of it all. Including all the metatextual stuff. Like a lot of it pertains to the differences and similarities between pre-crisis and post-crisis DC both in terms of the actual universe fiction and how the company was editorially ran throughout those decades.

Also how the New Gods were finally being used within the true range of their potential as envisioned by Kirby etc. If I didn't have such a good grasp of DCU history both in terms of the fiction and behind the scenes by 2008 I think it would've taken me longer to fully grasp everything Morrison was trying to cover.

[JewishHobbit]

Well I have none of that knowledge and I'm still cloudy having read it through 3 times (maybe 4, not sure). I finally just discarded verything not written by Morrison and have read all that and am just finally grasping it... sorta. And I think it's silly that the Batman issues aren't collected in the trade. They're kinda important.

Some questions I still have... blacked out for spoiler sake:

So did the main DC world die and they just travel to another world? What's up with the caveman in the future? What were the people riding through the Bleed on? What was the Bleed again? What happened to everyone NOT on that ride? Did Mr. Terrific and the others die? Where did they send that rocket with the momentos in it and how did it end up in the past with Bruce Wayne? I get the bullet through time thing but when exactly did the Flashes appear and when? Was there a gap in the middle of the story or something? So a vial broken in Wonder Woman's hand somehow infected all the computers in the world? Anything having to do with "Monitors" is a mystery to me. Why were all the Supermen necessary? For that matter, what the heck did Darkseid's fall have to do with vampire Monitors? And lastly... the Anti-Life Equation makes no sense to me. Say a few words and people become brainless vampire puppets?!

It was, all-in-all, a very strange story. I liked the feel of it but I felt like he was bobbling too many plots without any depth or explainations given regarding them. It was like he just threw it all up on the page and expected people to study the book.

Maybe if he would have just cut anything having to do with the Monitors/Superman and focused on the Darkseid story, and then fill in the Monitor/Superman pages with clearer explanation... it would have made a much better story.

[antsman41]

I didn't like Bruce going through time, that was dumb.

[CConn]

That was awesome. Especially at the end when he meets the time controlling Chewbaccas. Genius.

[RoughNTumble]

we were offered a spot on a batman podcast

but we're not sure we want to do it V_V

[Naked Shia]

Final Crisis needs a vast DC knowledge to be really appreciated obviously. but it really uses everything well. It was great to see the new gods in such an epic scope. The whole Batman thing is hard to understand at first, but in collected form, it makes more sense, and it becomes trully amazing imo. The Return of Bruce Wayne has one flaw: it's too short.

[RoughNTumble]

best drugs for reading morrison batman iyo?

[Roose Bolton]

70 years of Batman comics

[Naked Shia]

Morrison's Batman is overall, and easy read, save for a few stuffs. All the clue to understand his run are in the bat-mythology.

[JewishHobbit]

Originally Posted by Léo Ho Tep

Final Crisis needs a vast DC knowledge to be really appreciated obviously. but it really uses everything well. It was great to see the new gods in such an epic scope. The whole Batman thing is hard to understand at first, but in collected form, it makes more sense, and it becomes trully amazing imo. The Return of Bruce Wayne has one flaw: it's too short.

Nah, they should have cut the whole thing out. It was distracting and took away from the flow of his story. Imagine how much better it would have been if Batman would have been thought dead in the boat, to be revealed that Hurt had somehow sent him in time, and show enough clues to see he's making his way through time and then he shows up to take Hurt out in the grand finale. That would have worked just fine without the whole time/Final Crisis junk clogging it all up.

[Cain]

But then that pretty much invalidates the point of the story. I mean Dr. Hurt exists in the first place because the God of Evil considers Batman a major threat to his bottom line. The whole purpose is that the greatest stories of the DCU (the trinity) are the only forces in the multiverse resilient and strong enough to take down the epitome of evil in Darkseid.

Batman starts it off by using the God bullet to weaken Darkseid's true form, Wonder Woman continues it by exorcising said form from Terrible Dan Turpin and then Superman shatters said form with the whistle of whistles when he taps into the "Darkseid killing frequency" of the vibrations of the multiverse.

[Naked Shia]

Originally Posted by JewishHobbit

Nah, they should have cut the whole thing out. It was distracting and took away from the flow of his story. Imagine how much better it would have been if Batman would have been thought dead in the boat, to be revealed that Hurt had somehow sent him in time, and show enough clues to see he's making his way through time and then he shows up to take Hurt out in the grand finale. That would have worked just fine without the whole time/Final Crisis junk clogging it all up.

without Darkseid, it lacks the whole point of the overall story actually. It's consistent with Morrison's work that he would consider Darkseid to be the ultimate evil of the DCU. In that regard, Hurt can't be more than what he is: a lunatic who kinda became immortal thanks to Darkseid. At first, he is surrounded by an aura of mystery. Then, he becomes a joke in B&R (which was awesome). But you get to see how dangerous he can be in Return of Bruce Wayne. and Inc brought him back to show that despite him not being that powerful, he is still a major threat to the Wayne legacy.

But Cain summarized well why the final crisis connexion was needed. It also shows why Batman, despite being human, is as dangerous for the evil gods as WW or Supes.

We discover that he survived RIP. Hurt almost managed to bring him down, but in the end, he's victorious. Then, Darkseid finishes the job his minion couldn't (although Hurt is not litterally his minion) by sending Bats to a fate worse than death. And Bruce manages to beat his curse by journeying to the end of time. There is a real progression from Rip to Return, and it works thanks to Final Crisis.

[JewishHobbit]

Never once did I get the connection between Hurt and Darkseid. I figured out that there was a connection but I didn't know what that connection was. The closest I got was just an assumption based on nothing that Hurt had some piece of Darkseid in him... or that Hurt was some demon in human form. When they kept talking about the God of Evil, I didn't understand that that was Darkseid. To me it sounded like Darkseid served the God of all Evil, which just came accross as a "nickname" for the bat demon thing from the cave, which was kinda the future space... thing... sent back in time... or something. And then that costume or something somehow made Hurt... how Hurt is. Or maybe Hurt was the God of all Evil, or he was possessed, and he somehow had something to do with Darkseid coming to Earth... ARGGGHHH!!!!

When the heck did Darkseid ever cross Hurt? Were they ever in the same place at once? What's Darkseid have to do with that devil worship stuff that Hurt did? None of what you explained was layed out in the slightest short of minor hints and cryptic lines. And I didn't get the Trinity thing at all. I don't even remember Wonder Woman's involvement in the end.

And I'm still confused as to how Darseid sent Batman into the past. Did the Omega Sanction send him in the past (not that I even know what the Omega Sanction is short of eye blasts) or was it that box thing with the tendrils? And the creature in the box... it followed him into the past and showed up in the witch hunting days randomly... though it was mentioned that it still followed him... though we never saw it? If so... where is it now?

And what the heck is the hole in things? Is that talking about the hole made by the bullet shot through time? I get the gist that it has more to do with Hurt and Darkseid than just a bullet hole but I haven't a clue as to what.

Freakin' Morrison. Get the dude a coffee and take his pot away. While I've enjoyed portions of his story I've decided to not bother with his stuff anymore. Much too heady for me.

[Donnie Darko]

I'm torn on Morrison. I thought RIP was an absolute mess, but thought Batman and Robin was fantastic.

[Llama_Shepherd]

Answers in bold.

Originally Posted by JewishHobbit

Some questions I still have... blacked out for spoiler sake:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

So did the main DC world die and they just travel to another world? No. The Justice League and Nix Uotan saved the world in it's entirety along with the Multiverse. The only people who moved worlds were the remnants of the New Gods who moved to Earth- 51. What's up with the caveman in the future? He is Kamandi, the last human survivor of Earth-51. What were the people riding through the Bleed on? A Monitor ship. What was the Bleed again? The space between universes. What happened to everyone NOT on that ride? Nothing, escaping New Earth was a last ditch attempt to at least save some people, instead they began recruiting a Superman army. Did Mr. Terrific and the others die? No, everybody lived. Where did they send that rocket with the momentos in it and how did it end up in the past with Bruce Wayne? Darkseid's fall was crushing space-time, it fell through time to where there was another recent time breakage, specifically Darkseid Omega Sanctioning Bruce. I get the bullet through time thing but when exactly did the Flashes appear and when? Barry reappears on the second day of the Crisis, but he, Wally and Jay begin running after the bullet, Jay can't keep up and remains in the present. Wally and Barry end up 4 weeks in the future. Was there a gap in the middle of the story or something? Yes. Superman was trapped in the future, Batman was being tortured by Simian and Mokkari, Flashes were time displaced, Green Lantern was on Oa, Wonder Woman became a slave. So a vial broken in Wonder Woman's hand somehow infected all the computers in the world? No, Wonder Woman was infected by a strain of the Morticoccus Virus. Anything having to do with "Monitors" is a mystery to me. Why were all the Supermen necessary? The Monitors feed off the "stories" that create the "germ worlds". The most enduring story is that of Superman, so an army of Supermen is recruited as the ultimate story against the ultimate devourer of stories, Mandrakk. Mandrakk could not overcome one of the most basic facts about Superman, he always wins, so the darkness in which he waited and grew fat, could not overcome the light (Vampire weakness) contained within Superman. For that matter, what the heck did Darkseid's fall have to do with vampire Monitors? It doesn't really. Dax Novu was supposed to represent the Monitor of the original Crisis (the New Earth version) and he had already been corrupted by Mandrakk And lastly... the Anti-Life Equation makes no sense to me. Say a few words and people become brainless vampire puppets? Both the Life Equation and the Anti-Life Equation exists in the subconscious of all life. Hearing the Equation serves as the realisation to the futility of living and thus, people surrender to the will of Darkseid.

It was, all-in-all, a very strange story. I liked the feel of it but I felt like he was bobbling too many plots without any depth or explainations given regarding them. It was like he just threw it all up on the page and expected people to study the book.

Maybe if he would have just cut anything having to do with the Monitors/Superman and focused on the Darkseid story, and then fill in the Monitor/Superman pages with clearer explanation... it would have made a much better story.

Originally Posted by JewishHobbit

Never once did I get the connection between Hurt and Darkseid. I figured out that there was a connection but I didn't know what that connection was. The closest I got was just an assumption based on nothing that Hurt had some piece of Darkseid in him... or that Hurt was some demon in human form. When they kept talking about the God of Evil, I didn't understand that that was Darkseid. To me it sounded like Darkseid served the God of all Evil, which just came accross as a "nickname" for the bat demon thing from the cave, which was kinda the future space... thing... sent back in time... or something. And then that costume or something somehow made Hurt... how Hurt is. Or maybe Hurt was the God of all Evil, or he was possessed, and he somehow had something to do with Darkseid coming to Earth... ARGGGHHH!!!!

Darkseid is the archetype that all evil is based on, Lucifer, Shiva, Hades, Pluto, The Dragon of Middle Ages, Sauron, all of it comes from the idea of Darkseid, the true personification of Evil, hence, God of Evil.

When the heck did Darkseid ever cross Hurt? They never did. Doctor Hurt crossed paths with the Hyper-Adapter, the Hunter-Killer curse that was inside the Ancestor Box in Batman #702. Were they ever in the same place at once? No. Hurt never had any knowledge of Darkseid. What's Darkseid have to do with that devil worship stuff that Hurt did? Nothing directly. Hurt worshipped the monster in the Ancestor Box, believing it to be a devil. However, as the name suggests, the purpose of the Hyper Adapter is to adapt, it poisoned Hurt before its death and attempted to turn him into a vessel for Darkseid much like Turpin was. None of what you explained was layed out in the slightest short of minor hints and cryptic lines. This was all explained in The Return of Bruce Wayne #6 and Batman & Robin #16 And I didn't get the Trinity thing at all. I don't even remember Wonder Woman's involvement in the end. Defeating Darkseid was a team effort. Batman shot and fatally wounded Darkseid with the Radion Bullet, The Flashes led the Black Racer to ensure his "death" The Ray freed the Earth from Anti- Life, Wonder Woman removed Darkseid from Turpin and Superman removed his soul from existence. Darkseid is now trapped in a black hole at the base of creation.

As a side note, this goes both with the hole in things concept as well as Darkseid being "The Devil", or at least the Supreme Evil. In terms of being a god, Darkseid has always been fairly sci-fi, and now he is a science fiction version of the devil trapped in a science fiction version of Hell.

And I'm still confused as to how Darseid sent Batman into the past. Did the Omega Sanction send him in the past (not that I even know what the Omega Sanction is short of eye blasts) or was it that box thing with the tendrils? And the creature in the box... it followed him into the past and showed up in the witch hunting days randomly... though it was mentioned that it still followed him... though we never saw it? If so... where is it now?

The Omega Sanction sent Bruce to the Stone Age. He would occasionally make jumps through time, getting closer to the 21st Century, where the build up of Omega energy would destroy the universe, releasing Darkseid following the events of Final Crisis.

The Hyper Adapter (thing in the Box) was an Apokoliptan weapon. It was essentially a curse that followed Bruce, it appeared in Return of Bruce Wayne #1, 2, 5 and 6 as well as Batman & Robin 12. The Hyper Adapter was essentially defeated twice by Bruce (In Return #2 Annie says she curses the Wayne name until the end of time. Bruce defeats it by going to the end of time. It is also defeated literally by Bruce's death in Return #6 where the Justice League send the Adapter back to the Stone Age where Vandal Savage kills it, but on its way there it attacks Dick in Batman and Robin #11 and infects Doctor Hurt).

And what the heck is the hole in things? A hole is an absence, not a something. But the whole is Darkseid shaped, caused by his fall through the Multiverse in the events shortly preceding Final Crisis. Is that talking about the hole made by the bullet shot through time? That is one of the holes. I get the gist that it has more to do with Hurt and Darkseid than just a bullet hole but I haven't a clue as to what.

Freakin' Morrison. Get the dude a coffee and take his pot away. While I've enjoyed portions of his story I've decided to not bother with his stuff anymore. Much too heady for me.

I tried answering as best I understood.

[Snow Queen]

Originally Posted by RoughNTumble

best drugs for reading morrison batman iyo?

I'm partial to Slow-Mo.

[JewishHobbit]

Originally Posted by Llama_Shepherd

Answers in bold.


I tried answering as best I understood.

Still a bit confusing but I got the gist. Thanks It'll help in my next reread of the book. The only thing I don't like about reading Morrison's Final Crisis stuff is that there's an obvious link to the Superman mini with the Legion, as he goes from the Superman Beyond mini back to Earth and then randomly shows up in the future again with Brainiac w/hair.

Another question... what did that symbol that people painted on their faces, on the Earth (Ray's light... or something?), and Bruce's cave have to do with saving people? I know it somehow blocked the Anti-Life Equation but how? Black Lightening just sorta had the symbol, gave it to the Tatoo Man, and boom! it worked. Was that ever explained properly and I missed it?