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Old 08-23-2006, 03:26 AM   #1
Nell2ThaIzzay
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Default Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

The bickering around here has gotten out of hand. Name callings of "loyalist" and "fanboy" have been thrown around more than water balloons on a hot summer's day in Hell, and the intelligence of those on either side of the "what did you think of X3" fence has been brought into question.

Those who didn't like the movie have begun to play the "victim" of how their opinion isn't respected, while blinding lumping anyone who did enjoy the movie into a category of people who need to "raise their standards", all while saying it's the same crap that's been done to them.

Well, hopefully after a journey through the mind of someone who enjoyed X-Men: The Last Stand, some of this bickering can stop. And even if it doesn't hopefully I can provide myself with some personal defense and stop being lumped in some unintelligent group that blindly takes what I'm given just because. To everyone who disliked the movie, we know what you didn't like about it. The complaints have been stated a billion times. And hell, a half a million of those complaints came from ME! So you've given your "lists", you've explained why the movie was ****ty, and why your opinion is righteous. So now it's Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"... a voice for those who enjoyed the movie. Here's what went -right- with the film, here's why -we- enjoyed it, and here's why we're not just some blind loyalists. You want support to our opinions, well here it is.

This movie worked... no it didn't neccesarily do what Bryan Singer was building up. Wanna know why? Bryan Singer left the project. And with him went all of his ideas for the direction of the franchise. The entire creative team from Bryan Singer's films were gone. There was nobody left who knew what Bryan Singer was doing. The closest one was Zak Penn, and he wasn't really part of Singer's team. The writers of Simon Kinberg and Zak Penn were put into a situation where they pretty much had to "guess" what Singer was gonna do. They were left with a story that had to be given some payoff in the Phoenix Saga, and they had to do it in a way that fit with Singer's established universe while not having the slightest clue as to what Singer was going to do with it. And the final product they came up with fit with Singer's set up pretty damned well.

"But the mental blocks and alternate persona had to set up in X2..." duh. Nothing in X-Men: The Last Stand was what Bryan Singer had set up, for the reasons I mentioned above. That doesn't mean it didn't work.

THESE MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN THE REASON CERTAIN SEEDS WERE PLANTED IN THE PREVIOUS 2 MOVIES, BUT THE EXPLANATION REMAINS CONSISTANT.

Let's take the Phoenix Saga, for instance;

X-Men, Jean Grey is relativley weak. Magneto's machine has no effect on mutants. But there's an effect on Jean... why would the machine have an effect on Jean, but nobody else? It'd be a pretty lame copout if it was just a plot device to trigger her next stage of evolution. No, there was something different about Jean Grey. The mental blocks that held her powers in check. Magneto's machine destroyed them.

X2, she had a new level of powers, a new level that even she wasn't too familiar with. Why the sudden leap in power from X-Men to X-Men: United? Because her mental blocks were destroyed, and she had full access to her powers, and never having access to them before, she was barely tapping the true potential of her powers. Then came that fateful moment where in order to save the rest of her team, her friends, her -family-, she had to make the ultimate sacrifice; her life. Her "death", and consequental loss of her concious self, allowed for the "alter ego" personality to seep through. There's no reason why her Phoenix alter ego had to be present for her to use her powers. Her alter ego isn't her mutation. It's not a part of her powers. Unleashing her powers doesn't neccesarily unleash her personality. But even then, the "alter ego" route wasn't so totally off track of what was presented in the previous movies;

"A month ago you had to concentrate just to levitate a book. Now when you have a nightmare, the entire bedroom shakes."

"My nightmares are getting worse..."

^ We've seen in X-Men: The Last Stand what happens when her powers go haywire. Infirmary scene, anyone? It's obvious that if she loses control of her emotions, she can easily lose control of her powers. And we saw an entire room shaking. Similar to what was established in that line in X2. And nightmares, dreams in general, are definatley a product of your emotions and personality. Constant nightmares, getting worse... why can't that be her "alter ego" starting to seep through?

Is it what Bryan Singer intended? Probably not. But Bryan left. And took his ideas with him. This entirely new team had to come up with a story built up by Bryan Singer, that fit into his established universe, without any of his ideas to help them along. They had to connect the dots on their own. They took what was established, and made their OWN solution to the unexplained build up from the previous movies. It's all stuff that connects.

"But what about Cyclops? He told Xavier he'd take over the school if anything happened, and they killed him off!"

Yea, they kinda had to. Like it or not, studio politics do play a role in movies these days. It's not totally artistic. For whatever reason, the studio wanted Cyclops out. So what did they do? They established Cyclops' role as the heir apparent to Xavier. When Xavier tells Storm he wants her to take over; "But, Scott's..." a line to show that Scott is supposed to by Xavier's "heir", supposed to run the school after Xavier has passed. It was 2 words and an incomplete thought that heavily established Scott's importance within the institute. However, studio politics dictated the response: "Scott's a changed man. He took Jean's death so hard"... which albiet isn't the ideal reply we would have liked to have seen from Xavier about our favorite ruby-quartz'd visor'd field leader, it wasn't too far off from the source material. I've seen Cyclops get very emotional over Jean's death in different versions of the X-Men, the movies should be no different. I've seen him leave the team because of it. Not only that, but unknown to everyone else, Jean was still calling out to him. Not only did he take Jean's death hard, but she wouldn't let him get over it. Poor guy.

Given the studio politics of the situation, they handled that about as well as they could, by at least establishing that "Well, Storm's gonna get the school, but it IS supposed to be Cyclops".

On the other end of the spectrum, you have Magneto who spent all of X-Men predicting a war between mutants and humans, and in X2 spent some significant time actually starting that war. Well, after X2, Magneto is a free man. His Brotherhood defeated from the incident on Liberty Island, it's now time for Magneto to start fresh... he's got Mystique by his side, and he just manipulated Pyro to join his cause. Magneto has his motivation from Stryker's actions against mutantkind, and has taken it upon himself to fight this war on all accounts. Instead of sitting idly by, waiting for the humans to "draw first blood", Magneto takes it to their doorstep, coordinating attacks in "Lisben, Geneva, Montreal", sending Mystique in on covert operations to gather information to help his cause, where she was eventually captured. After learning about the cure, he then gathers mutants to his cause for his biggest attack yet. The entire time, gathering mutants to his cause using his grace, dignity, elegance, and charisma, meanwhile remaining true to his friend Xavier, and keeping the "youngin's" in line. Magneto was at his all-time best in this film.

New to Xavier's cause was the, movie-universe wise, return of Hank McCoy, the Beast. Everything that I love about comic book Beast was captured in this film, even down to the details of in-combat quips with Wolverine ("I thought you were a diplomat", "As Tackov said, there comes a time when every man must........ OH YOU GET THE POINT!"), and remarks of awe ("Oh my stars and garters"). I couldn't imagine Beast being done any better than he was done in this film. Not only is Beast's role in the movie one of the best parts of the movie, it's one of the best parts of the entire trilogy.

The cure plotline was the best of the 3 movies. It wasn't just "some bad guy makes plan that will endanger the world"... it was the ultimate shade of grey that provoked both sides to take action in one form or another.

And in response to a remark I saw awhile back... Xavier was there every step of the way (in response to Magneto's remark to Xavier in X-Men about intending to fight the war, and Xavier being there every step of the way)... it doesn't have to be in a literal, physical sense. Xavier's ideaology, Xavier's dream was there every step of the way. Xavier's children, the X-Men, fought in Xavier's name, for his dream, to stop Magneto from accomplishing his goals. And in that way, the way that you have to dig down a little bit for because it doesn't punch you in the face with brass knuckles, Xavier was there every step of the way.

No, this film might not have been what Bryan Singer set out to do. But what Bryan Singer set out to do left with Bryan Singer when he went to do Superman Returns. He didn't leave an outline behind for the next crew to work with. He took everything. The new team had to come in with nothing, and make something that fit the story of 2 movies already, without knowing what direction was truly intended. And what they did fits smoothly with what came before it. Nothing contradicts. The open plot arcs are resolved. Maybe not as Bryan Singer intended, and maybe not even ideally for us as fans, but they ended, and they ended in a way that remained consistant with what was established by 2 movies prior.

That's why X-Men: The Last Stand worked for me, and many others. And as you can see, I haven't even gotten to the "action and explosions for the sake of action and explosions" yet... I've been talking about what actually happened in this movie, the plot, the character, the depth.

Please don't lecture me on how I need to raise my standards, and how I'll blindly accept anything, because I enjoyed this movie and you didn't. This is just the tip of the iceberg of what I found to be enjoyable about this movie... a brief runthrough. Those of us that enjoyed the movie do have legitamate reasons for liking it, and they equal, if not outnumber, the complaints others may have about the movie.

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Old 08-23-2006, 03:37 AM   #2
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I agree.

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Old 08-23-2006, 04:14 AM   #3
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This is a great topic Nell and your points are dead on. I'll repost some things I've said also about the decisions made, since it's very rellevant to this topic:

I think there is a point in a persons mind where he must accept that the pilot of the franchise is a new person, otherwise the ideas will sound like nonsense even if they make sense when you see Singers as the ones set in stone, and then "the new one" over there.

I really understood how they were developing the story and interpreting it in innovative ways. Some were unexpected turns but they fit smoothly imo.

As for Scott, even with the short screentime, i think they got his character down. From x2 you can see clearly he had the potential to go nuts after Jeans "death". Her voice calling him in x3 didnt help this. How can you move on with a normal life if what youre trying to move on from is still everpresent?

One thing that wasnt mentioned in Nell's post is Rogue/Marie getting cured. I can see what the writers were thinking. In x1 she nearly killed her boyfriend, in x2 this appeared to be resolving but what people didnt see was that Bobby still couldnt really touch her, he just chanced it every time. That would get old and after time Marie sees Bobby warming up to Kitty in X3, which she took as him gravitating toward someone else because of her powers. I think thats when she realized theres no going around her powers, and so for her own social life, she got cured. If this was blatantly out of character for the films I would notice.

Magneto. I said this offtopic in another topic but here is quite appropriate. He was amazing in this film:

Some have said he was a 2d character. I doubt it. All along he was ready to fight the battle of Us vs Them. He was revved up and ready to strike in x3, with his simple ideology being all he needed in toe for war. I found it well done.

Just like Stryker says "this already is a war and he is the enemy". If stryker thinks this way surely Erik with his ideology would know he has to think the same way.

Since the first film Magnetos been warning Xavier that he intends to fight to the bitter end this war. In x2 he KNOWS the war is on after Strykers attacks, so when a perceived threat of the cure is upon his people in x3, he deems it as the final straw, a mirror image of what happened in the 40s, a movement subtle and if gotten out of hand becomes far too late. He is not about to let this happen so amasses his brotherhood. Very fitting arch for the character. I enjoyed the greyness of x2s united front against Stryker, but in x3 they really brought out the one teeny but massive issue that separates Xavier and Erik: methods of accomplishing their same goal. Xavier believing in communication and not aggravating turbulent situations, and Erik believing the only way out is through mankind. He was all business in x3. Black and white is what occurs with soldiers in wartime.

It does irritate me when someone says I have low standards, because I pride myself in filtering crap from quality. It just makes sense, it doesnt even take much effort for these things to slip into the mythos imo. Bretts an ass in some ways, but him and writers are also one bright cookie about the actual mythos to bring about the climax imo.


Last edited by XCharlieX; 08-23-2006 at 06:40 AM.
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Old 08-23-2006, 05:00 AM   #4
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I'm going focus on the part that I think was the best in the whole series - the boy Angel trying to cut off his own wings.

It was painful to watch and we could understand the anguish of not only the boy but his father. The "cure" was set up as simply a father doing the best for his son and was far more effective than having an evil government trying to oppress a minority.

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Old 08-23-2006, 07:26 AM   #5
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Your post is great Nell and X-3 did work on its own as a film.

I dont wish to turn this into a complaints thread (even if it may look like that). But what really burned me was that everyone was out of character and changed there attitudes from previous movies. (Example: Xavier progressing from a loving, caring mentor to being an arrogant lying S.O.B.)

And in response to your post at not making sense about Jean with Magneto's machine, they could have gone a route that her power's werent fully estabilished as everyone elses power's (struggling so hard about lifting a book) and her power's were gradually evolving on its own accord (deleted scene from X-1 about Jean saying to Xaver she can feel her power expanding). But magneto's machine finished her mutation too rapidly for her to control it. IMO that would have been much better as it tie's into Singer's tone but at the same time prevents Xavier from being an ass.

Another thing which i didnt like about the film was implying that Jean killed Scott. I know the Studio wanted him out but to be killed by the one person (possessed or not possessed) would never kill him. And if she did, thats where she draws the line and brings her around. They could've had him die in the final battle, or have Jean come around and push him back giving him concussion and have him in the infirmary through the whole movie (would piss off fan boy's but atleast he could still come back, yet the studio has him out of the movie)

Also i hated that there was too much Wolverine and Storm. It really defeats the purpose about the X-men being a team, that there getting all the action and mutants like Colossus and Angel getting 2 or 3 scenes to flesh out there character's (if any was shown) and become Wolverines throwing *****

I know me *****ing isnt going to change anything from the movie, but im just giving my thoughts on an alternate route they couldve taken to make people happy, yet have X-3 be the last one at the same time.

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Old 08-23-2006, 08:05 AM   #6
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Very strong points Nell, well thought out and constructed. I actually agree with a couple of your statements too, and I respect what you've said in this thread, but unfortunately for me it still falls short. But now I can understand your point of view and the ones of a few others on the Hype

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Old 08-23-2006, 08:05 AM   #7
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Hey Nell, I think this thread won't change much. As you can see most of the users who hated TLS moved on, this board slowly dies, and by the end it will look like the ff board (looking at it now, you'd think the movie was great because the only users still going there are those who really liked the movie).

The "reasons the movie sucked/worked" boat has sailed long ago, now only time will solve the "bickering" problem you've mentioned.

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Old 08-23-2006, 08:13 AM   #8
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Nell2thaizzay i loved your post, very well articulated. Also that's mostly why i loved the movie.

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Old 08-23-2006, 08:16 AM   #9
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You make alot of interesting points and I do agree with you to some extent. But you have to realize that the ones who did not enjoy this movie are out numbered by the ones who did like it. When we try to voice our opinions about why TLS didn't live to our expectations, we are the ones who get trashed and be told that we are not the true fans. To me it's not about who loves X-Men more. It's about this movie in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay
No, this film might not have been what Bryan Singer set out to do. But what Bryan Singer set out to do left with Bryan Singer when he went to do Superman Returns. He didn't leave an outline behind for the next crew to work with. He took everything. The new team had to come in with nothing, and make something that fit the story of 2 movies already, without knowing what direction was truly intended. And what they did fits smoothly with what came before it. Nothing contradicts. The open plot arcs are resolved. Maybe not as Bryan Singer intended, and maybe not even ideally for us as fans, but they ended, and they ended in a way that remained consistant with what was established by 2 movies prior.
Singer DID write a treatment for his X3 story. And we all know why he left so I won't get into that. But it wasn't because he just felt like leaving and going to do SR instead. He was tired of waiting and needed to work.

You really can't say that the writers had to work with nothing. I mean, producers Ralph Winter and Lauren Shuler Donner was still around. Obviously, they had some idea of where X3 should go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay
Please don't lecture me on how I need to raise my standards, and how I'll blindly accept anything, because I enjoyed this movie and you didn't. This is just the tip of the iceberg of what I found to be enjoyable about this movie... a brief runthrough. Those of us that enjoyed the movie do have legitamate reasons for liking it, and they equal, if not outnumber, the complaints others may have about the movie.
I respect everyone's opinion on liking the movie. I have never tried to lecture or convince others on why not to like it. I can write a book on why I did not like X-Men: TLS. But why bother? It's not going to change anything.

The main key however was that this film was rushed. I know everyone can agree with that on both sides. They had to go through alot of changes during the production and fix things at the last minute. That is why there were alot of problems with the script, character development, continuity, etc.

The first 2 films had heart and we grew to love the characters. This time around it was all just a big ass-kicking-popcorn summer movie and I'm ok with it. Just not what I was expecting.

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Old 08-23-2006, 09:57 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neto Magnus
You make alot of interesting points and I do agree with you to some extent. But you have to realize that the ones who did not enjoy this movie are out numbered by the ones who did like it. When we try to voice our opinions about why TLS didn't live to our expectations, we are the ones who get trashed and be told that we are not the true fans. To me it's not about who loves X-Men more. It's about this movie in general.

Singer DID write a treatment for his X3 story. And we all know why he left so I won't get into that. But it wasn't because he just felt like leaving and going to do SR instead. He was tired of waiting and needed to work.

You really can't say that the writers had to work with nothing. I mean, producers Ralph Winter and Lauren Shuler Donner was still around. Obviously, they had some idea of where X3 should go.


I respect everyone's opinion on liking the movie. I have never tried to lecture or convince others on why not to like it. I can write a book on why I did not like X-Men: TLS. But why bother? It's not going to change anything.

The main key however was that this film was rushed. I know everyone can agree with that on both sides. They had to go through alot of changes during the production and fix things at the last minute. That is why there were alot of problems with the script, character development, continuity, etc.

The first 2 films had heart and we grew to love the characters. This time around it was all just a big ass-kicking-popcorn summer movie and I'm ok with it. Just not what I was expecting.
He wasn't meaning you, Neto. As far as I'm concerned, I respect everyone's opinion but what bothers me at times is when those who like X-Men 3 are constantly attacked by those who hate it. Why!?! I'm not talking about people like X-maniac, Dan-whatever the rest of her screen name is spelt (those who defend X3 the most), but I'm referring to those who don't come to the hype very often to discuss why they liked X3 - like myself and others. Why? Cause some of us are tired of being bashed just b/c we like it and think the movie worked to some extent. While I liked X3, I agree with those who hated it, that atleast half or more of the movie didn't work to an extent. So Im caught between in the middle and thats how I feel.

Just because I liked the movie doesn't mean I'm a Fox Loyalist. I hate Fox. I hate the way they approached this film with their so-called "artistic" decisions concerning Scott and a few others. No, I didn't take everything that they threw at me. I'm not blind you know. Did it meet my expectations? Yes for the most part but no- it didn't. I will forgive the writers for bringing Famke and James and Rebecca back but while I liked how they were presented on screen, I won't forgive them for the way they wrote them. They got certain aspects of the characters down right but the rest...went completely out the window. Examples: Jean just appearing in front of Scott at Alkali Lake. WTF!?! No rising sequence and she appears to be standing just like that out of nowhere?

Jean killing Scott. That never happened in the comics especially not in the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Saga. Sure she hurt him but she didn't kill him too harshly. Correct me if im wrong, but I've seen TAS X-Men a hundred times now so im only going by with what I remember seeing and reading in the comicverse/cartoonverse. Logan and Storm not once was hestitant to look around for Scott after they found Jean. Again...Fox doesn't give a s*** about Scott. It shows how cruel they were towards him- especially in X2. I loved Him in X1!! He was the leader!! The Leader of the X-Men. Okay. yeah I liked him in X2 even though he had little to do but I enjoyed him when he fought those guards and when he fought Jean. I always liked to see them duke it out. It was nice.

Moving on. I didn't like it when Jean was just standing around in the second half and having less lines too. Again, Fox wanted this to be a Hugh and Halle movie, not Hugh, Famke, James and Halle and yeah I wasn't happy with that idea either.

Think about this. If we had those four just like that, it could have been a lot like the first one but each of them would have their moments to shine. In X-Men, our foursome had their moments to shine and that exactly what was lacking in X3. Sure, there were moments in X3 that reminded me of X1 but still it wasn't the same without our foursome getting their time to shine on the big screen.

X3 could have been like X1 but only BETTER.


If I remember, I read somewhere that Fox wanted X3 to be like X-Men Vs Magneto. I would have liked it if OUR Foursome: Cyclops, Jean/Phoenix, Wolverine and Storm were involved with additional more of our fave X-Men like Beast, Iceman, Angel, Kitty and Rogue. It would have been like old times. old times... but what an apportunity Fox missed.


Well thats it. I don't want to write all that has been said and done since day one when X3 came out. Peace out.

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Old 08-23-2006, 07:53 PM   #11
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Needed a lot of catching up. Many replies since the start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarknessOfDeath
They got certain aspects of the characters down right but the rest...went completely out the window. Examples: Jean just appearing in front of Scott at Alkali Lake. WTF!?! No rising sequence and she appears to be standing just like that out of nowhere?
You know its interesting with the folks that come from the comic path to this film. To them its a MUST for phoenix to rise from the water in a godly fashion. How I saw it, I think there is much to be grateful for in that there were no more sfx sequences described and that they at least went straight to Scott and Jeans encounter with each other after the whirlpool. This film had enough sfx for me, so i never even begun to think about this. Go figure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danoyse

I loved seeing this movie opening day, with a crowd who clearly hadn’t been up on the internet buzz and appeared to be enjoying the movie just fine…the 5 guys behind me who yelled along with "I'M THE JUGGERNAUT, b****!" and were still yelling it walking out of the theater. The woman next to me saying "That's it, girl, go get her now," when Storm went after Callisto. The applauded when Bobby head-butt Pryo. I loved the crowd going crazy when Wolverine kicked the guy in the nuts. I loved the reaction from the people in the audience who stayed after the credits.

People say that those people are easily entertained…I say they’re probably better off for not following every single rumor, script leak, and assumption about the movie online beforehand, and were able to take it on face value and enjoy themselves.
Yeah you know at my viewing the people seem to dig it too. They laughed at all the right parts, especially the "juggernaut B****" line, the crowd went wild. They also laughed when the person in the car locked his car door after the bridge was torn apart. And at the end a guy in the row ahead of me jumped out of his seat when the secret scene was shown. I think the average person enjoyed this film more than the folks online. I bet many of them are fans of the series and have knowledge about the others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastSunrise1981
No, because Nell is actually intelligent, knows the comics, and knows quite a bit about storytelling himself. So I respect his views and respect that he enjoys the movie.
I think X-Maniac is pretty intelligent here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Maniac
That could depend on how one defines 'true X-Men fan'...

Does it mean someone who has followed the comics for decades, someone who has piles of comics several metres high and all the cartoon episodes... Does it mean someone whose passions are confined to the world they saw in the first two movies...

It's all down to perspective and interpretation.
How right you are. Just because someone doesnt collect comics and such it doesnt make them any less of a fan or knowledgeable when it comes to the films. X3 clicked with me within the logic established by the films, thats really what I was concerned with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay
I got caught up in the hype, and went in expecting a Return of the King style epic. I forgot that this was a comic book movie.
I personally dont think it was because it was a comic movie. There are small things they couldve done that hampered their epic scope a bit, like the topic ive made about pacing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntcrawler

Other people are entitled to their opinions, yes, but I will not put up with the notion that those who love the film have the power of righteousness behind them and those who hate it are the bad guys.
Well honestly, if someone holds an opinion, if they thought it out thoroughly, then naturally they believe that they are correct. So that goes with both sides. Nobodies really going to convince the other, i think its really about seeing what the other person has to say, and then maybe after that they may change their view if they find the other arguments logical, but usually not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntcrawler
That's right, Nell. Good point about trusting your first instinct. I still do.
If thats the case then X3 was wondrous to behold imo. My first gut instinct actually seeing it was the film was well done overall. With how worried I was I arrived at the theater thinking it was potentially going to be crap, but I had to clear my head of that negativity and think objectively in order for it to have any shot imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batman
That is quite a good point...but the intent of my post was to show...that when you have a negative view on the movie...people will POUNCE on you...and Nell should know that better than anyone else.
Before the film i think people were getting tired of me thinking the worst of the film, so I can vouch for this also, the running time had me scared because ive seen crammed films happen too many times before. This was indeed the case but I never thought the film was inevitably doomed until i saw it and got surprised... i still feel its a bit of luck on behalf of the writers and director with their determination (especially the cast) that saved the film. I noticed some cracks at the seams due to a flamboyant director such as Brett. He doesnt care what people think and with pacing i think this showed in the worst way possible.

Going into a loaded film such as this, anybody should really forget whos directing what, and just strip the names off from the credits and just look at the film as 3 of 3. I felt personally the story, style and essence itself was done well and in line with the other 2.

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Old 08-23-2006, 09:20 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by DarknessOfDeath

If I remember, I read somewhere that Fox wanted X3 to be like X-Men Vs Magneto. I would have liked it if OUR Foursome: Cyclops, Jean/Phoenix, Wolverine and Storm were involved with additional more of our fave X-Men like Beast, Iceman, Angel, Kitty and Rogue. It would have been like old times. old times... but what an apportunity Fox missed.






I wanted to see the main X-Men, Wolverine, Cyclops, Jean, Storm, Iceman, and Rogue work together as a team to fight Magneto, Sinister, Apocalypse etc.


Then add newer ones like Beast, Angel, Colossus, Nightcrawler, Gambit, Bishop
Kitty etc.

Fox added newer ones, when we really do not know anything about Cyclops, Jean, or Storm at all.

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Old 08-23-2006, 08:20 AM   #13
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

The way you mentioned Jean and Magneto's machine destroying the mental blocks in her mind- no one could have said it better.

Quote:
"A month ago you had to concentrate just to levitate a book. Now when you have a nightmare, the entire bedroom shakes."

"My nightmares are getting worse..."

^ We've seen in X-Men: The Last Stand what happens when her powers go haywire. Infirmary scene, anyone? It's obvious that if she loses control of her emotions, she can easily lose control of her powers. And we saw an entire room shaking. Similar to what was established in that line in X2. And nightmares, dreams in general, are definatley a product of your emotions and personality. Constant nightmares, getting worse... why can't that be her "alter ego" starting to seep through?
As you see part of your paragraph there is highlighted in bold which means that part caught my attention and got me thinking and taking Scott's line about the room shaking to a new level regarding Jean's powers. Nice catch, Nell.

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Old 08-23-2006, 08:57 AM   #14
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Could this film hae been better? Sure. Could it have been worse? Hell yeah.

When I saw this film, I already knew all the background stuff, knew most if not all of the plot points. Knew all the controversies. Yet I sat there with my family and my popcorn and my extra large cup of soda, and I enjoyed it.

Could it have been better? Sure. Could it have been worse? Yup. Were some of the characters "out of character"? Yup. Did some things bother me? Yup. (Wolverine's magic pants, not enough Beast etc)

But in the end, I did enjoy it. I was entertained. I enjoyed the story. There was a hell of a lot going on in this film, a lot of different threads to tie the thing into a whole, and it worked for me. I liked the lines of logic winding through this film (the "why did this happen" lines) While I may not have been to happy with certain outcomes, I understood and appreciated the "need to go there".

Do I wish Singer had remained to finish the trilogy? Sure. I sometimes wish all of that hoo-hah had not happened and Singer had stayed and was able to finish what he started. But for reasons out of our control, he left. New blood came in, and attempted to finish what was started. Did Ratner do a good job? He surprised me. He really did. To me, he pulled a rabbit out of his hat, and he gave me a good film to watch. Certainly he was successful in some aspects and unsuccessful in others, but he really did surprise me.

What worked for me? Well, Beast for starters. As Nightcrawler in the second film, this character really struck a chord with me. Kudos to Grammer on this one. The character was smart, crisp, and touching all at the same time. My only regret was that he was not in the film more.

The story itself. I liked the Cure subplot, as well as Phoenix. Famke was amazing, and she too surprised me. She scared the hell out of me. With the Cure, we didn't have an evil mad scientist creating it, we had a concerned father attempting to do what he thought was best for his son. We had Magneto then taking this Cure and adopting it as his rallying cry, thus twisting its original (and rather naive) intent and giving Magneto's troops their ammunition and their cause to fight against.

Xavier worked for me too. I saw a veil being removed from him in this film. It was another layer added to the character. While his goals may be admirable, his methods may be questionable. This is one part I not only liked, but loved. It added to the "shades of gray" aspect that I picked up in the first film. As Magneto was never the moustache-twirling ultra-evil villain, Xavier was not a pure-as-the-driven-snow good guy either. It's all about layers, and I love layers.

*As this is a long post, I will end here, but will post more in a little while*

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Old 08-23-2006, 10:58 AM   #15
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

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Old 08-23-2006, 11:03 AM   #16
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See, I like Nell. Nell actually posts reasons as to why he enjoyed the film, he knows the comics, and doesn't blindly follow a product just because one of his favorite characters gets the bigger role again.

I've always respected Nell's view and while I don't 100% agree with his post. He posted this in an intelligent and articulate manner, which is more than I can say for half of the people who LOVED X3 on here.

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Old 08-23-2006, 11:27 AM   #17
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

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See, I like Nell. Nell actually posts reasons as to why he enjoyed the film, he knows the comics, and doesn't blindly follow a product just because one of his favorite characters gets the bigger role again.

I've always respected Nell's view and while I don't 100% agree with his post. He posted this in an intelligent and articulate manner, which is more than I can say for half of the people who LOVED X3 on here.
I saw that 'LOVED' dig at my other post. I am unsure why you feel the need to demonise me - perhaps you need some human, accessible, tangible focus for your feelings over X3. Rather unfair to make me into that. I have given my reasons for liking the film, and argued intelligently for those reasons on here and argued for and against the various X-Men interpretations... Yet still you feel the need to see me as Fox Incarnate.

I'm not. I'm simply someone who enjoyed the movie, as Nell did; and who can argue why, as Nell does.

So what's your game? Do tell...

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Old 08-23-2006, 11:43 AM   #18
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

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Originally Posted by LastSunrise1981
See, I like Nell. Nell actually posts reasons as to why he enjoyed the film, he knows the comics, and doesn't blindly follow a product just because one of his favorite characters gets the bigger role again.

I've always respected Nell's view and while I don't 100% agree with his post. He posted this in an intelligent and articulate manner, which is more than I can say for half of the people who LOVED X3 on here.
Yeah... why is it you are so hungry for our reasoning? Why? Is it you're unsure of your own reasons for hating X3?

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Old 08-23-2006, 02:31 PM   #19
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Yeah... why is it you are so hungry for our reasoning? Why? Is it you're unsure of your own reasons for hating X3?
No, because Nell is actually intelligent, knows the comics, and knows quite a bit about storytelling himself. So I respect his views and respect that he enjoys the movie.

He, unlike quite a few people here, doesn't insult people who disliked the movie or call them "whiney fanboys" because of their disgust on how they deviated from the comics.

I don't hate X3 like I hate Catwoman, Doom, Elizabethtown, or even Batman and Robin. I give X3 some credit for being watchable, but I'll never give it credit that it doesn't deserve.

I already explained why I didn't truly care for it. And that's the end of it.

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Old 08-23-2006, 09:43 AM   #20
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*ok, now time to finish my previous post*

continuing with what worked for me.........

Flashbacks. Great addition. The most touching scene in the film was probably Angel attempting to cut off his wings, his emotions when his father found him. Wow. Good stuff. (Another lament: not enough Angel in this film) And for a sheer "Holy s***" moment, Xavier and Magento shown "de-agified". And what made it for me, it was the same actors!!! Again, that scene showed the layers of Xavier and Magneto's relationship, as well as being just cool to watch.

And I may be accused of being shallow, but I also liked the Danger Room sequence. After all these years, finally!!!! And yes, I liked the dialogue between Wolverine and Storm too. (How dare I? )

One small scene between Magneto and Jean/Phoenix, the one in the forest where she uses those cure darts as a threat against him. That showed me that while he believed he held all the cards and was in control, he really wasn't, and he was painfully vulnerable. It forshadowed things going terribly out of control. Good scene.

Magneto looking down at a suddenly cured Mystique. I loved McKellen's emotion, the pain in his eyes. He didn't need to say a word, his eyes said it all there.

There are other, smaller moments, exchanges between characters as well that I liked. The Infirmary, The "cage the beast" scene, Leech looking out the window at Angel flying over the city.... and others.

Now, what didn't work for me.

Wolverine. I stated when I reviewed this film that I missed the X1 Wolverine. He wasn't in this film. He had his moments in this film, but I still miss the feel of the character from X1.

Storm. She had more oomph in this film, yet still, she was lacking. I saw a pissed off Storm in this film, finally, which was a good thing, but there could have been more. A payoff perhaps? Sure I enjoyed when she finally pounded the hell out of Calisto, but...more please. Perhaps one shot of satisfaction when the deed was done or something. I don't know.

The final line-up. While it was a really great shot of the team lined up, dammit, there should have been a few more team members. It was sparse. (And I will not go into who should have been there, as that subject has been done to death and I think we are all in agreement on that subject anyway)

The president. Wow, weakest link in the film. The under-utilization of Bill Dukes here was a crying shame. The man scares the hell out of me and he should have been used more!!!! And the potential of the sentinels? Enough said.

And there were other things that didn't work for me, things that bothered me, but these are things that, as I said earlier in this post, have been gone over and over and I believe everyone is in agreement on those matters.

Overall, I liked the film. I liked LOTR too, but there were things there I absolutely hated!!!! (How many scenes did we really need of Frodo and Sam crying or Legolas posing?) But I still liked the films, as I like this one, despite things that rubbed me the wrong way.

I have been thinking lately, and I cannot come up with one single film I truly hated. I didn't care for a lot of films. But I can't think of one film that I really really hated. For those I disliked, I simply don't watch them again. Or if I do find myself viewing them, I simply sit back and make rude comments or laugh, ala Mystery Science Theatre. I do not find myself getting worked up about a film. (Now specific actors and a lot of Television shows are a different story, but we are not talking about that here ...my feeling about certain actors are pretty well known here)

So, there you have it. I'm sure when the DVD comes out, and I watch the movie again, I will find more things that worked for me, and things that didn't. I may find myself less entertained or more entertained by it. Only time will tell. There are times now that I really want to see X1, then times when only X2 will suffice. And then there are times when I don't feel like watching either, and they sit on my shelf. Soon I will add X3 into the mix, and it too will be rotated through my "must watch" list.

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Old 08-23-2006, 10:10 AM   #21
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I agree 100% with you Andy.

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Old 08-23-2006, 10:37 AM   #22
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Well said Nell!

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Old 08-23-2006, 12:34 PM   #23
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay
"A month ago you had to concentrate just to levitate a book. Now when you have a nightmare, the entire bedroom shakes."
Correct. Her powers are becoming stronger and it takes more effort to control them and keep them in line. Very similar to storm's situation. For Jean, she suddenly has alot more power to tap into, something she was previously unaware of.
Quote:
"My nightmares are getting worse..."
Logan also has nightmares. They could be premonitions, visions, or related to her telepathy in other ways, for example people's thoughts or dreams or their own nightmares entering her mind without her being aware of it, creating a terrifying storm of warped images in her head. Which only become worse as her telepathy becomes stronger

Quote:
^ We've seen in X-Men: The Last Stand what happens when her powers go haywire. Infirmary scene, anyone? It's obvious that if she loses control of her emotions, she can easily lose control of her powers. And we saw an entire room shaking. Similar to what was established in that line in X2. And nightmares, dreams in general, are definatley a product of your emotions and personality. Constant nightmares, getting worse... why can't that be her "alter ego" starting to seep through?
First keep in ming that Singer's directing style is intelligent and thoughtful, he understands the use of symbolism and foreshadowing. When he sets up an element, no matter how vague at first he will touch up on it later on and you will be able to look back on it and realize it was there, like with any good mystery novel. For example. In it's suggested that Jean's powers began to evolve again either after her experience with Cerebro, or at Liberty Island. Looking at the footage, her reaction to Magneto's machine was inconclusive, but yet similar to how Senator Kelly reacted. But then at the beginning of X2, Scott makes the point clear. "Ever since Liberty Island...", so it completely that symbolic arc, stating that it was the events of Liberty Island that caused her powers to start growing and for those changes to be appearing.

And now to answer your question above:

Quote:
"why can't that be her "alter ego" starting to seep through?"
Very simple. Because her alter-ego is explained at being essentially an angry, frightened child who lashes out and has a need for basic desires, as well as feeling bitterness towards those that suuposedly held her back. Namely Xavier and apparently to a lesser extend Scott. Yet we see none of that. Jean does not experience any sudden or unexplainable mood swings. She never shows any hint of bitterness or resentment towards Xavier or anyone else. She never lashes out suddenly in anger. You never see equipment or silverware flying across the room when she becomes angry. Up until the final moment, she remains the good, lovable, compassionate Jean they always knew. In fact, she never becomes angry or gives into her anger. And her powers are never seen as something that corrupts her, or affects her in a negative way. Rather her powers are shown to be a natural part of her, certainly not something which destroys her life or hints at possibly being used to destroy the world. She never uses her powers to hurt, to maim, kill or destroy but only for protection. Up until the very moment that Jean is overwhelmed by the water, she is clearly in control, afraid but calm, and her powers are shown as something clearly benevolent. Certainly no visible sign of an alternate personality seeping through or taking over, and certainly no hint of the rage and destruction that was to come in X3.

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Old 08-23-2006, 08:24 PM   #24
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

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Correct. Her powers are becoming stronger and it takes more effort to control them and keep them in line. Very similar to storm's situation. For Jean, she suddenly has alot more power to tap into, something she was previously unaware of.
actually, Storm, Cyclops, Rogue, Wolverine, Magneto, and all of the other mutants that came into contact with the mutant machine within the first film already had their powers at their full potential in the films. Jean was the only who mentioned anything about being behind in her power levels in comparison to the others. hers were still in development.

Quote:
Very simple. Because her alter-ego is explained at being essentially an angry, frightened child who lashes out and has a need for basic desires, as well as feeling bitterness towards those that suuposedly held her back. Namely Xavier and apparently to a lesser extend Scott. Yet we see none of that. Jean does not experience any sudden or unexplainable mood swings. She never shows any hint of bitterness or resentment towards Xavier or anyone else. She never lashes out suddenly in anger. You never see equipment or silverware flying across the room when she becomes angry. Up until the final moment, she remains the good, lovable, compassionate Jean they always knew. In fact, she never becomes angry or gives into her anger. And her powers are never seen as something that corrupts her, or affects her in a negative way. Rather her powers are shown to be a natural part of her, certainly not something which destroys her life or hints at possibly being used to destroy the world. She never uses her powers to hurt, to maim, kill or destroy but only for protection. Up until the very moment that Jean is overwhelmed by the water, she is clearly in control, afraid but calm, and her powers are shown as something clearly benevolent. Certainly no visible sign of an alternate personality seeping through or taking over, and certainly no hint of the rage and destruction that was to come in X3.
everything i highlighted i think you might've missed, or forgotten about in X2. first off, Jean is anything but in control of her powers throughout the course of the film. when we're first re-introduced to her she causes the electrical equipment in the museum to go on the fritz. when the missiles are fired at them, she manages to destroy one, but looses control of her powers during the second. the flame effect that happens at random times comes and goes as it pleases showing that her powers might not be entirely under her control, previously completely developed, and definitely, not benevolent. they have the potential to be all of those things, but she's "killed" before she can learn to actually gain control of them.

also, in the deleted scenes, we're shown that once Storm mentions Logan, the Blackbird's controls begin to go faster and start to act off. Storm realizes that Jean is doing this and tells her about it. while it doesn't show up in the final product it does provide more proof that Jean isn't in control of her powers completely, and that there is something hidden within her character.

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Old 08-23-2006, 08:28 PM   #25
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actually, Storm, Cyclops, Rogue, Wolverine, Magneto, and all of the other mutants that came into contact with the mutant machine within the first film already had their powers at their full potential in the films. Jean was the only who mentioned anything about being behind in her power levels in comparison to the others. hers were still in development.
Exactly! That's exactly what I'm talking about. Her mutation was triggered early when Annie died and never completed. Magneto's machine completed the mutation for her, completing the process and making her into what mother nature intended all along. It was assumed that magneto's mutation machine (MMM) would have no effect on a mutant, but didn't realize that Jean herself was a special case.

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