Bane or the Joker?

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Doctor Octopus

Bane was willing to die for Talia when she was just a child in the pit. He was also willing to die again so she could honor her father by completing his work and killing the man who she thinks killed her father.

I think it is obvious Bane was doing it for Talia.

That's how I always interpreted since that's how the movie presented it. It was a personal vendetta for Talia. Bane really had no personal stake in it so much that he was willing to die, other than his unwavering love as Talia's friend and protector, which showed in the pit scene that he was willing to die for her just so she could escape.

If he was willing to give his life for that when she was a child, then it seems obvious to me that being willing to go up in smoke with the rest of Gotham is again for Talia.

Originally Posted by AnneFan

Yep. A name drop wouldn't have hurt but as it stands, he came out of nowhere and disappeared into nowhere. Mysterious.

You've read the novelization haven't you? I heard they dropped some clues about where he was in that.

[ThePhantasm]

Egads, this conversation is becoming increasingly frustrating, for a number of reasons. First, I give evidence / arguments for something and then I get told "nuh-uh" with no rebuttal. Second, the film apparently only implies things about Bane in the Talia scene (where implications are "clear") but elsewhere if the movie implies anything else it is "not revealed." Its a double standard. Third, it is pretty obvious to me (but apparently I'm in the minority) that Bane has bought into Ra's whole belief system that Gotham needs to be destroyed:

Bane: We will fulfill Ra's Al Ghul's destiny. We will destroy Gotham. And then, when it is done, when Gotham is ashes, then you have my permission to die.

Bane: I am the League of Shadows. And I am here to fulfill Ra's Al Ghul's destiny! I will show you where I have made my home, while preparing to bring justice...

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

What kind of person is Bane exactly? Where IN THE FILM is it shown that Bane would be more inclined towards the League's philosophy than anyone else?

Bane isn't like anyone else! He lived an entire life of suffering in a pit with no hope, angry at the world, born in darkness. Do you think that past means nothing to him? That upon coming out of the pit he would just be some normal guy? What more did they have to show in the film to make it clear that Bane came from a life of suffering and that said suffering fuels his rage? It was pretty much the theme of the whole film, for Bruce, Talia, AND Bane!

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

Nowhere in the film is it shown that Bane feels Gotham is corrupt or that he has any personal reason to attack Gotham.

Aside from all the times that Bane says Gotham is corrupt? Apparently just believing Gotham was corrupt was sufficient for Ra's in Begins (according to your last comment) but here Bane needs a personal reason?

Sorry, I've got to bow out of this discussion too, just like the other one. Feel free to respond to my post in final rebuttal if you wish. We'll just have to agree to disagree, because I can't see this conversation going anywhere.

[DACrowe]

Joker.

Next question.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by DACrowe

Joker.

Next question.

Who got laid more? Joker or Bane?

[DACrowe]

Neither. Bane was friend zoned and Joker probably cares nothing about sex.

I will say though that I find it interesting so many fans hate that Bane was in love with Talia. He still seemed to be his own man who did many amazing things, but when they realize he is not a lone man, but also an equal with a woman in his plans, it becomes a problem.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

Egads, this conversation is becoming increasingly frustrating, for a number of reasons. First, I give evidence / arguments for something and then I get told "nuh-uh" with no rebuttal. .

Because you have flat out made things up based on your interpretation. As I have said before, interpret the film in as many ways as you want, just don't use unsubstantiated interpretations as evidence

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

Second, the film apparently only implies things about Bane in the Talia scene (where implications are "clear") but elsewhere if the movie implies anything else it is "not revealed." Its a double standard. Third, it is pretty obvious to me (but apparently I'm in the minority) that Bane has bought into Ra's whole belief system that Gotham needs to be destroyed:

Bane: We will fulfill Ra's Al Ghul's destiny. We will destroy Gotham. And then, when it is done, when Gotham is ashes, then you have my permission to die.

Bane: I am the League of Shadows. And I am here to fulfill Ra's Al Ghul's destiny! I will show you where I have made my home, while preparing to bring justice....

Obviously Bane says that he wants to accomplish Ra's Al Ghul's objectives, but the audience is given no clue as to why. All we know about Bane is that he rescued Talia, was rescued out of the prison by Ra's, and is later excommunicated by Ra's. We are given no logical reasons why he shares the ideals of the League of Shadows or why he is so dedicated to achieving their goals. We are also not given any isnight in to his personal philosophy or beliefs. He is simply an extension of Ra's/Talia's beliefs without a true personality of his own. As an audience we know why Bruce adopts the belief of the LOS, same with Ra's, we are even given a brief insight as to why Talia would want to attack Gotham. With Bane, is because HE JUST DOES. For random LOS henchman this would be acceptable, for one of the main villains in the film is just isn't enough.

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

Bane isn't like anyone else! He lived an entire life of suffering in a pit with no hope, angry at the world, born in darkness. Do you think that past means nothing to him? That upon coming out of the pit he would just be some normal guy? What more did they have to show in the film to make it clear that Bane came from a life of suffering and that said suffering fuels his rage? It was pretty much the theme of the whole film, for Bruce, Talia, AND Bane! .

I don't understand the point of this argument. Obviously no one expects Bane to be a normal guy. Who claims he hasn't suffered or that he isn't angry. Talia obviously has a personal stake in attacking Gotham, what other reason, apart from Bane being a henchman, does HE have to attack GOtham?

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

Aside from all the times that Bane says Gotham is corrupt? Apparently just believing Gotham was corrupt was sufficient for Ra's in Begins (according to your last comment) but here Bane needs a personal reason?.

The only time in the movie Bane calls Gotham corrupt is when he is trying to manipulate the populace. Name some other instances where he specifically says Gotham is corrupt. Don't worry, I'll wait

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by DACrowe

Neither. Bane was friend zoned and Joker probably cares nothing about sex.

I will say though that I find it interesting so many fans hate that Bane was in love with Talia. He still seemed to be his own man who did many amazing things, but when they realize he is not a lone man, but also an equal with a woman in his plans, it becomes a problem.

It kinda feels like sexism, huh? Lol.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

The only time in the movie Bane calls Gotham corrupt is when he is trying to manipulate the populace. Name some other instances where he specifically says Gotham is corrupt. Don't worry, I'll wait

"I'm Gotham's reckoning. Here to end the borrowed time you've all been living on."

He could have just snapped Daggett's neck without saying a word. No manipulation there, no need to spell out his motivation to Daggett. Yet he does.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

"I'm Gotham's reckoning. Here to end the borrowed time you've all been living on."

He could have just snapped Daggett's neck without saying a word. No manipulation there, no need to spell out his motivation to Daggett. Yet he does.

I said a time when he specifically calls Gotham corrupt. All that means is that he is there to end Gotham, there is no implication of Gotham being a corrupt or terrible city.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

I said a time when he specifically calls Gotham corrupt. All that means is that he is there to end Gotham, there is no implication of Gotham being a corrupt or terrible city.

reck·on·ingnoun /ˈrekəniNG/ 
reckonings, plural

1. The action or process of calculating or estimating something
   • - last year was not, by any reckoning, a particularly good one
   • - the system of time reckoning in Babylon
   
   
2. A person's view, opinion, or judgment
   • - by ancient reckoning, bacteria are plants
   
   
3. A bill or account, or its settlement
   
4. The avenging or punishing of past mistakes or misdeeds
   • - the fear of being brought to reckoning
   • - there will be a terrible reckoning
   
   

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

Name some other instances where he specifically says Gotham is corrupt. Don't worry, I'll wait

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

reck·on·ingnoun /ˈrekəniNG/ 
reckonings, plural

1. The action or process of calculating or estimating something
   • - last year was not, by any reckoning, a particularly good one
   • - the system of time reckoning in Babylon
2. A person's view, opinion, or judgment
   • - by ancient reckoning, bacteria are plants
3. A bill or account, or its settlement
   
4. The avenging or punishing of past mistakes or misdeeds
   • - the fear of being brought to reckoning
   • - there will be a terrible reckoning

You are extrapolating. Saying that he is Gotham's reckoning does not equate to him saying the city is corrupt; if that is your interpretation, fine, but that is CLEARLY not the evidence I was asking for

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

You are extrapolating. Saying that he is Gotham's reckoning does not equate to the city being corrupt, if that is your interpretation, fine, but that is CLEARLY not the evidence I was asking for

First you said there was no implication that Gotham was corrupt from that line. Now that I've clarified why I would read into such a specifically chosen word for that line (a word that has connotations of judgement and vengeance for past offenses, which, in conjunction with him spouting off about fulfilling Ra's' destiny at multiple times in the film brings further support to this line of interpretation), you tell me I'm just extrapolating.

I'd like to know, what is your interpretation of that line? Why would Bane be Gotham's reckoning instead of simply its conqueror or destroyer?

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

First you said there was no implication that Gotham was corrupt from that line. Now that I've clarified why I would read into such a specifically chosen word for that line (a word that has connotations of judgement and vengeance for past offenses, which, in conjunction with him spouting off about fulfilling Ra's' destiny at multiple times in the film brings further support to this line of interpretation), you tell me I'm just extrapolating.

I'd like to know, what is your interpretation of that line?

My interpretation of the line is that he is Gotham's reckoning there to end the borrowed time they've been living on. This is obviously a reference to Ra's previous attack on Gotham. That line says nothing about whether or not Bane believes Gotham to be corrupt

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

My interpretation of the line is that he is Gotham's reckoning there to end the borrowed time they've been living on. This is obviously a reference to Ra's previous attack on Gotham. That line says nothing about whether or not Bane believes Gotham to be corrupt

But....how does this not support the notion that Bane himself believes in what Ra's believed? Why even say all that to a guy he's about to kill anyway?

[ThePhantasm]

Bane: I totally don't believe Gotham is corrupt. Heck, I love the place. But Ra's Al Ghul did. That's all I'm saying. So yeah, we're gonna blow you guys up. But don't take from that that I hate Gotham or think it is corrupt or that justice should be served on Gotham or anything! I didn't say that!

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

But....how does this not support the notion that Bane himself believes in what Ra's believed?

Because only the Talia reveal scene implies stuff about Bane! Just because, okay!!

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

Bane: I totally don't believe Gotham is corrupt. Heck, I love the place. But Ra's Al Ghul did. That's all I'm saying. So yeah, we're gonna blow you guys up. But don't take from that that I hate Gotham or think it is corrupt or that justice should be served on Gotham or anything! I didn't say that!

Just following orders, man. Actually, Talia actually told me to say all this. A little over the top, I know. Sorry!

*snaps neck*

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

But....how does this not support the notion that Bane himself believes in what Ra's believed? Why even say all that to a guy he's about to kill anyway?

All that line means is that Bane believes it his duty to destroy Gotham. Whether or not that means he believes the city to be corrupt is to the discretion of the viewer= YOUR INTERPRETATION

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

Bane: I totally don't believe Gotham is corrupt. Heck, I love the place. But Ra's Al Ghul did. That's all I'm saying. So yeah, we're gonna blow you guys up. But don't take from that that I hate Gotham or think it is corrupt or that justice should be served on Gotham or anything! I didn't say that!

So you couldn't prove anything you set out to prove so you resort to sarcasm. Great comeback

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

So you couldn't prove anything you set out to prove so you resort to sarcasm. Great comeback

I proved it over and over. Your requirements for what constitutes proofs are strange and overboard except for when it suits your interpretation.

Thanks for the complement about my comeback... I thought it was funny as well! I thought it also quite well made the point that your requirements for explicit explanations are kinda over the top. The scene is hardly subtle in what it tells us about Bane, but you want it to say it even louder.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

I proved it over and over. Your requirements for what constitutes proofs are strange and overboard except for when it suits your interpretation.

Thanks for the complement about my comeback... I thought it was funny as well!

You actually didn't prove anything. My requirements for proof is that it be solidly substantiated by the movie, not that it be inferred by you or any other posters on here. I don't offer my interpretation because I realize it is not suitable for evidence, all my arguments are based on what is explicitly told to us by the movie. Perhaps our definitions of proof are incongruent

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

All that line means is that Bane believes it his duty to destroy Gotham. Whether or not that means he believes the city to be corrupt is to the discretion of the viewer= YOUR INTERPRETATION

Not only does he believe it's his duty to destroy Gotham, he believes it's his duty to punish it for past misdeeds, again reckoning was a very specific word choice. He's calling himself the personification of Gotham's judgment and punishment. What other past misdeeds are on the table here? Ra's obviously believed Gotham to be a corrupt city, Bane talks about fulfilling his destiny. Can you at least see how this is a logical conclusion to draw, even if the movie doesn't spell it out by having Bane say "I believe Gotham is corrupt" in private? There's a difference between interpreting something in a film and finding something to be implicit. I truly find Bane's belief in what he is doing to be the latter. And of course, Talia has a role in his actions too. I'm not denying that.

Now, whether Bane never let go of his initial LOS indoctrination, or has a reinvigorated belief thanks to working side by side with Talia ...that is open to interpretation. But all I'm saying is I think the movie makes it exceedingly clear that Bane has stake in this, ideologically.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Not only does he believe it's his duty to destroy Gotham, he believes it's his duty to punish it for past misdeeds, again reckoning was a very specific word choice. He's calling himself the personification of Gotham's judgment and punishment. What other past misdeeds are on the table here? Ra's obviously believed Gotham to be a corrupt city, Bane talks about fulfilling his destiny. Can you at least see how this is a logical conclusion to draw, even if the movie doesn't spell it out by having Bane say "I believe Gotham is corrupt" in private? There's a difference between interpreting something in a film and finding something to be implicit. I truly find Bane's belief in what he is doing to be the latter. And of course, Talia has a role in his actions too. I'm not denying that.

Now, whether Bane never let go of his initial LOS indoctrination, or has a reinvigorated belief thanks to working side by side with Talia ...that is open to interpretation. But all I'm saying is I think the movie makes it exceedingly clear that Bane has stake in this, ideologically.

I'm not saying you're wrong nor am I saying the conclusion you drew is illogical, but none of what you say definitively proves that Bane thinks Gotham is corrupt. He may or may not, it is up to interpretation, and I see nothing wrong in yours. But what I asked for was a specific instance in the film (apart from manipulating the general populace) where Bane says he believes Gotham to be corrupt.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

I'm not saying you're wrong nor am I saying the conclusion you drew is illogical, but none of what you say definitively proves that Bane thinks Gotham is corrupt. He may or may not, it is up to interpretation, and I see nothing wrong in yours. But what I asked for was a specific instance in the film (apart from manipulating the general populace) where Bane says he believes Gotham to be corrupt.

Okay. I truly thought the "reckoning" line was pretty definitive, considering he had no other reason to be monologue-ing to Daggett unless he was for real about his LOS beliefs.

If that's not enough for you, then fair enough.

[The Joker]

Bane told Bruce in the pit that his revolution was all false hope to poison their souls. So all of his fancy talk was hooey.

Saying he's Gotham's reckoning is just him saying he's finishing Ra's work who already deemed Gotham beyond hope and must die. Trouble is Ra's did that when Gotham was actually in bad shape.