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View Poll Results: Are the screening responses a good sign for MOS?
Yes. 46 73.02%
No. 2 3.17%
I don't think they mean much. 15 23.81%
Voters: 63. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-17-2013, 12:20 AM   #226
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Default Re: TMOS Review & Speculation Thread (Spoilers) - Part 4

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I don't see the point in giving movies whatever out of 10 it just seems really picky or things like getting ***ty at editing etc. I either like it, love it or don't. When people give films ratings like 9.5/10 you know that they are just too picky. RT, Red letter media, The hulk, harry knowles. I can't believe how people can just suck up to these ****** and believe their every word.
Nonsense. It's perfectly reasonable to rate something on a scale of 1 to 10. With so much entertainment out there competing for our time it's perfectly acceptable to have a uniform rating system. We can't just watch/buy everything that comes out blindly. It just puts things into perspective, I really don't understand what your problem is with rating systems. Sometimes you have to read deeper into a review to find out if your tastes gel with the person writing the review, sure, but if it's established that the person reviewing has similar tastes to yours then it's perfectly acceptable to judge on a rating scale. You sound really immature with the way you come across.

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Old 10-18-2013, 01:11 AM   #227
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Default Re: TMOS Review & Speculation Thread (Spoilers) - Part 4

So what mate, I just don't give a rat's about the ratings systems. I don't like it so you call me really immature, get over it. Happy trails mate. Nothing against you, I just try to make my own mind up and don't get influenced by other people's rating's. There have been too may to count that I have read that have said so and so about a film and I have just rolled my eyes thinking "don't know what movie you've watched but I f'ning loved it".

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Old 03-12-2017, 01:19 PM   #228
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Default Re: TMOS Review & Speculation Thread (Spoilers) - Part 4

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Having rewatched MOS recently I think it should've been recieved better. It's riddled with plot holes, lack of consistent motivation and some stuff that seems contrived but with the same level of scrutiny-- films like Iron Man 2, Iron Man 3, Thor 2, Incredible Hulk are far worse and yet they fared far better.
What plot holes, which characters lacked consistent motivation, and what seemed contrived?

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Old 03-12-2017, 02:50 PM   #229
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Default Re: TMOS Review & Speculation Thread (Spoilers) - Part 4

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What plot holes, which characters lacked consistent motivation, and what seemed contrived?
Hey MissLane!

Well the first one on the top of my head would be if in this version the Kryptonian council accepts that the planet is doomed, why do they sentence Zod and crew to the phantom zone? What's the point if the planet will be gone? They literally gave him an out. And if so, why not put themselves in the phantom zone?

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Old 03-12-2017, 03:01 PM   #230
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Default Re: TMOS Review & Speculation Thread (Spoilers) - Part 4

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Hey MissLane!

Well the first one on the top of my head would be if in this version the Kryptonian council accepts that the planet is doomed, why do they sentence Zod and crew to the phantom zone? What's the point if the planet will be gone? They literally gave him an out. And if so, why not put themselves in the phantom zone?
They do not outright accept the planet is doomed. Jor-El speaks to the Council in the first place is because its endless debates rather than action have accelerated the end of the planet. The Council is portrayed as holding onto rules and tradition to the point of suicide. The contradiction is, therefore, intentional. The Council is corrupt and degenerate because it is inflexible and myopic. They do not put themselves in the Phantom Zone because that it not how Kryptonian society functions. That is not how society has intended or pre-programmed them to act. The whole point of the film and its themes about free will and destiny is that it underscores the fundamental flaws in a system and society that holds onto rules and control above all else.

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Old 03-12-2017, 03:24 PM   #231
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They do not outright accept the planet is doomed. Jor-El speaks to the Council in the first place is because its endless debates rather than action have accelerated the end of the planet. The Council is portrayed as holding onto rules and tradition to the point of suicide. The contradiction is, therefore, intentional. The Council is corrupt and degenerate because it is inflexible and myopic. They do not put themselves in the Phantom Zone because that it not how Kryptonian society functions. That is not how society has intended or pre-programmed them to act. The whole point of the film and its themes about free will and destiny is that it underscores the fundamental flaws in a system and society that holds onto rules and control above all else.
That didn't really answer why they sent Zod to the phantom zone considering the council never once opposes Jor-El and asks him what to do instead. Even in STAS Jor-El suggests the phantom zone. If the planet is going under why send Zod there?

I've Googled this and checked on various boards for an answer. But the most ardent MOS fans have conceded it as a plothole. Jor-El also says everyone there is already doomed. But why? Why not go into the phantom zone? Also do they not have ships?


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Old 03-12-2017, 03:28 PM   #232
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Default Re: TMOS Review & Speculation Thread (Spoilers) - Part 4

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Hey MissLane!

Well the first one on the top of my head would be if in this version the Kryptonian council accepts that the planet is doomed, why do they sentence Zod and crew to the phantom zone? What's the point if the planet will be gone? They literally gave him an out. And if so, why not put themselves in the phantom zone?
Council didn't believe the planet was doomed. Not a plot hole.

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Old 03-12-2017, 03:34 PM   #233
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Council didn't believe the planet was doomed. Not a plot hole.
They did though. They ask Jor-El "What would you have us do?". They never question the premise. They don't say it's nonsense. They accept it.

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Old 03-12-2017, 03:39 PM   #234
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Default Re: TMOS Review & Speculation Thread (Spoilers) - Part 4

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That didn't really answer why they sent Zod to the phantom zone considering the council never once opposes Jor-El and asks him what to do instead. Even in STAS Jor-El suggests the phantom zone. If the planet is going under why send Zod there?
It totally answers the question. They send Zod there because that's the law. The Council and Kryptonian society as a whole is portrayed as doomed and degenerate because it puts control and rules above everything. The Phantom Zone is for prisoners who break the law, so only those who break the law are sent there, and they are sent there regardless of the current fate of the planet. No one else is saved or preserved there because it isn't the fate of Krypton. Why? Because it is how things are done on Krypton. There is no flexibility or free will. The fate of everyone on Krypton is controlled, decided, and codified by law and genetics. If Krypton and the Council had been open to creative means of preserving life, then there wouldn't have been endless debates. There wouldn't have been a question of exploring and colonizing the old outposts.

The Council does oppose Jor-El. When Jor-El suggests alternatives, the Council asks incredulously: "Are you seriously suggesting that we evacuate the entire planet?" The Council simply does not believe that any sort of evacuation whether it is to other worlds or possibly even the Phantom Zone is an option. Jor-El rejects the idea as well because he believes the living Kryptonians are fundamentally flawed by nature. He wants Krypton to be reborn rather than saved. Ultimately, the Council follows the traditions and rules of Krypton even to its doom. Zod says as much when he is sentenced: "You're a pack of fools, every last one of you." Ironically, the fate of the Council is the same fate that befalls Zod. He cannot adapt beyond his purpose.

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Old 03-12-2017, 03:46 PM   #235
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So they are incapable of thought that goes against their "programming"?

The council thinks evacuating people is impossible but doesn't explain why. She also only takes issue with that. Never once do they question Jor-El's hypothesis that the planet will explode. They accept the harnessing the energy damaged the core and say "Our energy reserves were ending". So they accept the planet will die and still send Zod up. Why? It doesn't matter anymore. So either they're stupid which is in itself stupid for such an advanced race or they don't believe the premise which is invisible not the case.

And why is everyone on Krypton doomed? Why can they not be evacuated? What gives Jor-El the right to decide that? Isn't he basically doing what Zod is and questions him about which bloodlines will pass?

First 15 minutes of the movie and nothing is really made clear. That's David Goyer for you.

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Old 03-12-2017, 04:02 PM   #236
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So they are incapable of thought that goes against their "programming"?
Yes.

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The council thinks evacuating people is impossible but doesn't explain why. She also only takes issue with that. Never once do they question Jor-El's hypothesis that the planet will explode. They accept the harnessing the energy damaged the core and say "Our energy reserves were ending". So they accept the planet will die and still send Zod up. Why? It doesn't matter anymore. So either they're stupid which is in itself stupid for such an advanced race or they don't believe the premise which is invisible not the case.
They send Zod up to the Phantom Zone because that is the sentence for enemies of Krypton. The only thing Krypton has left, at least according to its Council, is to follow rules and traditions. They are stupid. They are fools. That's the point! Jor-El didn't even believe Krypton was worth saving because of the corrupting nature of the planet's genetic and social engineering.

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And why is everyone on Krypton doomed? Why can they not be evacuated? What gives Jor-El the right to decide that? Isn't he basically doing what Zod is and questions him about which bloodlines will pass?
Yes, and that's why Jor-El also believed he shouldn't be saved. He believes that only his freeborn son, Kal-El, is uncorrupted enough to house the codex that will bring hope to a reborn Kryptonian race.

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First 15 minutes of the movie and nothing is really made clear. That's David Goyer for you.
It's all very clear to me.

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Old 03-12-2017, 04:15 PM   #237
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So the premise of this film rests on an advanced alien species being able to build ships that could travel galaxies 18,000 years ago but fail to see the obvious futility in sentencing a prisoner outside a planet when it's going to blow up?

Meanwhile a renowned scientist plays genocide with the living inhabitants and somehow possesses martial arts abilities to beat military men and generals who have been genetically bred for combat. Also if they can't think outside their programming, how does Jor-El think natural burn is better?

LOL this just became a heck of a lot worse. Goddammit.

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Old 03-12-2017, 04:25 PM   #238
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Default Re: TMOS Review & Speculation Thread (Spoilers) - Part 4

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So the premise of this film rests on an advanced alien species being able to build ships that could travel galaxies 18,000 years ago but fail to see the obvious futility in sentencing a prisoner outside a planet when it's going to blow up?
Yes, Krypton is portrayed as foolish and degenerate because of its commitment to isolation and genetic engineering. This has always been the origin and history of Krypton in the Superman myth.

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Meanwhile a renowned scientist plays genocide with the living inhabitants and somehow possesses martial arts abilities to beat military men and generals who have been genetically bred for combat. Also if they can't think outside their programming, how does Jor-El think natural burn is better?
Jor-El is not playing genocide. He is not the one who is killing anyone, and he's the one who is literally ensuring the survival of his species. He is doing the exact opposite of what genocidal freaks do: he's rejecting eugenics and embracing free will. Jor-El believes natural born is better because he's a scientist, and that is the basis of the scientific theory of evolution. Diversity allows for progress and natural selection is better than forced or engineered selection.

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Old 03-12-2017, 05:12 PM   #239
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Not really. The origin in most cases was always that the council didn't believe Jor-El (in some cases because either braniac offered different conclusions) or other scientists came up with different results. That would make sense for why they'd send Zod up there. But in this world they are super smart and stupid at the same time. I mean sending prisoners finish their sentences when the plane is about to cease to exist is beyond ludicrous. It's just sloppy writing.

Jor-El is condemning every inhabitant to die. And how is he going against his genetic make up? You never answered that. His genetics wouldn't allow him to subscribe to that theory at all. Also how does he possess better martial arts abilities than military men bred for that purpose?

Far too many holes here.

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Old 03-12-2017, 05:38 PM   #240
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Not really. The origin in most cases was always that the council didn't believe Jor-El (in some cases because either braniac offered different conclusions) or other scientists came up with different results. That would make sense for why they'd send Zod up there. But in this world they are super smart and stupid at the same time. I mean sending prisoners finish their sentences when the plane is about to cease to exist is beyond ludicrous. It's just sloppy writing.
The plane will cease to exist? I don't think they knew that would be the case. I also think the reason the Council doesn't believe Jor-El is because of their misguided way of thinking. They are full of hubris and closed-minded. You're free to dislike that characterization, but disliking something isn't the same as a plot hole.

Basically, the story of Krypton is presented like that of Noah's Ark with Kal-El as the righteous man allowed to survive and within his genes -- the codex -- was the diversity of his species (like the animals) that could survive and thrive once the corrupt were washed away by the flood or the destruction of their sinful world. It also fits into Biblical verses about the end times or apocalypse. From Revelation 21: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away. Even on Smallville, Jor-El had a similar philosophy. "We cannot doom another planet's future to preserve our past," he said.

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Jor-El is condemning every inhabitant to die. And how is he going against his genetic make up? You never answered that. His genetics wouldn't allow him to subscribe to that theory at all. Also how does he possess better martial arts abilities than military men bred for that purpose?

Far too many holes here.
His genetics allow him to be a learned and intelligent scientist. Science teaches that diversity is what makes a species healthy; it enables evolution that naturally rather than unnaturally selects for the best traits for survival. He views Krypton's impending self-destruction as nature selecting them to die; he isn't dooming them, they doomed themselves. Martial arts is not an exclusively military trait. Being a military bred person means more than just fighting. It means obedient, strategic, etc. My best guess is that teaching fighting skills was a learned rather than inherited skill that all on Krypton could have learned.

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Old 03-12-2017, 06:09 PM   #241
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But they did know. They accepted Jor-El's conclusions about the core being unstable and the people being doomed. They never questioned or denied what he said. And why would the inhabitants have to die? Why not shepard them to another post with ships? And why sentence Zod if they know the planet is done anyway?

And what's the point of genetically breeding warriors if someone bred for something different entirely can best them at their own skill? How is Jor-El the only one able to go against his programming? Surely the other scientists saw that genetic breeding was better so what was different about him?

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Old 03-12-2017, 08:45 PM   #242
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Default Re: TMOS Review & Speculation Thread (Spoilers) - Part 4

Wolfgang Miss Lane answered all your questions much better than I did and she took the time to do her essays. Yet at the end of all that you still ask the same questions. What you are asking are not plot holes they are just things you personally didn't comprehend. But I'm not going to involve myself anu further in this circle you 2 have going on.

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Old 03-12-2017, 08:57 PM   #243
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I read the essays, she offered some interesting commentary but I still didn't get a proper answer to my questions. If anything her answers caused more questions to arise and make the material seem even more sloppy (to me).

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Old 03-13-2017, 12:43 AM   #244
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Default Re: TMOS Review & Speculation Thread (Spoilers) - Part 4

The foolish behavior of the Council of Krypton is basically that of the ruling class of a world knowing that they are progressively damaging their ecosystem and that it may eventually all collapse into chaos because of it. It does sound like something that may exist in some real world, for some strange reason.

The Council seems to agree that the core depletion will bring problems just as depletion of any natural resource will, but they do not see it as a pressing issue but something to be shrugged off as inevitable, with the casual stance that it will be someone's problem later. Thus they ask for possible solutions but reject the ones that involve drastic, present action.

This was a decadent culture, that had turned inward. They no longer had starships that could go to other planetary systems. The ships we saw were orbital-capable and inner system capable, as it was later stated that Zod and Co. had to adapt the Phantom Zone portal generator into a star-spanning drive.

The Phantom Zone was not the limbo of comics where people lounge about. The Zone prisoners were encased in protective cocoons and appeared to be in stasis. It was opened with the help a vast stabilizing portal that we saw in orbit, enabling the prison ship to enter it safely. Moving the whole population into this version of the Zone would have been the same as freezing all forever without any assurance of their ever being released. That the blowup of the planet opened the portal and released the Black Zero was an unforeseen contingency. No planets had been likely exploded previously to test how the portal worked in those circumstances. This also means it was not so easy to send back Zod and crew to the Zone. Without the protective cocoons and the enabling portal, the Zone was opened in chaotic fashion that surely killed all sucked into it.

Zod was able to scavenge older technology from the abandoned outposts.

There are plot elements in the movie that IMO were mishandled but these complaints I addressed above really puzzle me. Is the environmental warning parallel not pretty obvious and supported by current world situations?
There are many historical world empires that collapsed into decadence shortly after abandoning its expansion and foresaking its colonies. Do we need to list them or many specific references?

The paralelisms of course are not perfect, there is an element of pulp roughness in the handling of themes that I do not think is unfitting within the material as per its history, and the movie is a fantastic entertainment not a cerebral hard sf piece, yet I found the more sf-nal treatment an appreciated element of the movie that makes me enjoy it in repeated viewings.


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Old 03-13-2017, 01:33 AM   #245
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Thank you dude^^ that was a really nice answer. Very coherently presented. Which the movie didn't really do IMO.

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Old 03-13-2017, 04:14 AM   #246
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Default Re: TMOS Review & Speculation Thread (Spoilers) - Part 4

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But they did know. They accepted Jor-El's conclusions about the core being unstable and the people being doomed. They never questioned or denied what he said. And why would the inhabitants have to die? Why not shepard them to another post with ships? And why sentence Zod if they know the planet is done anyway?
The inhabitants would have to die because the Council clearly finds the idea of saving all of Krypton from imminent disaster to be a ridiculous proposition. All of your questions underscore is the foolishness of the Council, which is not in dispute. No one is arguing that the Council was brilliant or logical. They were hubristic and myopic. Donner's Council was similarly blind and dumb. Rather than refusing to seek solutions to save their planet, Donner's Council won't even listen to Jor-El at all! They are so blind and dumb they won't even get past the first step of admitting a problem so they can begin to solve it! The reason why the Council in the DCCU is flawed is because it is impotent with its blind adherence to law and tradition. Everything must be debated. Nothing is done because no one can agree on anything. The law and protocol takes precedence over all else. Because that's what eugenically rigid bureaucrats would do!

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And what's the point of genetically breeding warriors if someone bred for something different entirely can best them at their own skill? How is Jor-El the only one able to go against his programming? Surely the other scientists saw that genetic breeding was better so what was different about him?
Soldiers are bred to ensure the survival of Krypton at all costs. They are patriotic to a fault because they, according to Faora, are not bred to have any sense of morality. This is what makes them good soldiers for the state. Nevertheless, there are people who make excellent soldiers but terrible fighters. Jor-El is more fighter than soldier. Furthermore, there is nothing that indicates Kryptonians, especially a Kryptonian dabbling in experimental and evolutionary science, would be unable to read and learn from history or seek out friends from other bloodlines and castes for training. There are even versions of Kryptonian backstory in Superman comics that include an ancient Kryptonian martial art, Torquasm-Rao, that was essentially part of Krypton's culture and religion. It seems like Kryptonian culture is generally a warrior society in which all of its peoples have armor and a coat of arms for one's House. Ultimately, and most importantly, Jor-El doesn't best Zod. Zod defeats Jor-El because Jor-El was distracted.

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I read the essays, she offered some interesting commentary but I still didn't get a proper answer to my questions. If anything her answers caused more questions to arise and make the material seem even more sloppy (to me).
What questions have been left unanswered? What is a "proper" answer? The material isn't sloppy or difficult to follow at all. It's all literally and explicitly stated. The degenerate and foolish nature of the Council is spelled out. The fact that Jor-El is a scientist and therefore understands the basic concepts of science is implicit. The fact that the Phantom Zone is not presented as a place where people can actually live is made clear when the only thing that allowed Zod and the other criminals to escape was a trick of fate. Jor-El's commitment to allowing the corrupted and genetically engineered Krypton to meet its evolutionary fate while making his son a living ark for reborn Krypton is at the very core of the film itself. None of this is inconsistent or sloppy.

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Thank you dude^^ that was a really nice answer. Very coherently presented. Which the movie didn't really do IMO.
The environmental (climate change), religious (Noah's Ark), and genetic determinism elements are pretty straightforward. I think it was more explicit than even Tolkien's allusions to World War I, the growth of industry, and other environmental messages, particularly those presented through the vehicle of the Ents.

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Old 03-13-2017, 04:53 AM   #247
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Donner's council disagrees with the conclusions Jor-El has presented. My question has always been if Goyers council accepts Krypton is done for, why would they send Zod out since it's futile. But I kind of see furioso's point about them passing off the problem. All this could really have been avoided if The council just rejected Jor-Els hypothesis. There's a reason it's always worked.

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Old 03-13-2017, 06:52 AM   #248
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Thank you dude^^ that was a really nice answer. Very coherently presented. Which the movie didn't really do IMO.
Wolfgang I am not trying to start a debate I'm just really interested to know: how do you think the movie could have shown a decaying society set in it's ways better? I believe Snyder, like always, was trying to make real world parallels. Mostly in the real world some reject evidence flat our while others just put it off to the next gen.

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Old 03-13-2017, 01:46 PM   #249
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Wolfgang I am not trying to start a debate I'm just really interested to know: how do you think the movie could have shown a decaying society set in it's ways better? I believe Snyder, like always, was trying to make real world parallels. Mostly in the real world some reject evidence flat our while others just put it off to the next gen.
I didn't have any issue with the primary portrayal of Kryptonian society. I thought the free will vs eugenics aspect was interesting as well. My problems with the krypton could've been fixed easily with a line from the council not believing Jor-El.'s conclusions. And reducing sub plots. A bit far too many things going on-- krypton's core, Zod's coup, Jor-El stealing the Codex etc. Which is why so much of MOS was just expository dialogue from scene to scene from either Russell Crowe or Michael Shannon explaining things.

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Old 03-13-2017, 02:18 PM   #250
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Donner's council disagrees with the conclusions Jor-El has presented. My question has always been if Goyers council accepts Krypton is done for, why would they send Zod out since it's futile. But I kind of see furioso's point about them passing off the problem. All this could really have been avoided if The council just rejected Jor-Els hypothesis. There's a reason it's always worked.
What do you mean it's futile? First, the council doesn't believe the cataclysm is imminent, so they decide not to have Zod and company linger. Second, the Phantom Zone would keep him imprisoned regardless of Krypton's fate. They had no way of knowing that the Phantom Zone would be damaged, and Zod set free, as a result of the explosion. The Phantom Zone is also not a livable place. It's unclear how an entire planet's population could both be transported there and how it would really be living if they were in there. The problem of evacuation emerges from the start:
Jor-El: And if your forces prevail, you'll be the leader of nothing.
Zod: Then join me. Help me save our race. We'll start anew. We'll sever the degenerative bloodlines that led us to this state.
Jor-El: And who will decide which bloodlines survive, Zod?
They can't even decide who would be saved and who would die. It's a society that has degenerated to the point that it cannot save itself; hence Jor-El's conclusion that their evolution has made it so they are dead already.

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