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Old 08-14-2017, 04:07 PM   #176
zephyrinthesky
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Default Re: What you didn't like about Captain America: Civil War - Flaws/Critiques - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Capsfan View Post
That's not an accurate information about screentime.
This is more recent one. (Also this: http://www.imdb.com/list/ls066620113/) Sharon gets 5 minutes and BW - 12.
And you forgot that Spidey's 8:30 includes his post-credit scene.
I've actually grabbed stop-watch myself and counted Spidey's screentime in the airport since we are talking about this sequence. He has 3:54 including all the group shots and scenes. Out of 17 minutes of the whole airport fight. I've also counted his individual fight scenes that wouldn't have been there without him - Spidey vs Bucky and Sam, Spidey vs Cap - they only take 2:15.
I don't believe they couldn't have afforded to make the movie 3 minutes longer, sorry, it's ridiculous.

Civil War is 2.5 with credits. People (I mean, general audience) usually don't watch credits, so it was 2.20 really.
What are they gonna do with IW then? How are they gonna handle it if they were unable to fit Spidey in CW's fight without cutting anyone out? ScarJo said they have a scene with 32 characters in it!!
I miss the times of Lord of the Rings, tbh.
Including Spidey and Ant-Man changed the tone of the airport fight from what it could have been if they'd elected to keep BW's deleted scenes. Widow fighting with Cap and overlooking the destruction of the airport are a far cry from the levity/fan-service spectacle that Spider-Man/Ant-Man were included for. The Russos chose to make the airport scene "fun" until Rhodey got hurt. The tone/focus of the airport fight is one of my bigger criticisms about CW in general.


The sheer number of characters is definitely something keeping me skeptical about IW.

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Old 08-14-2017, 04:31 PM   #177
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Default Re: What you didn't like about Captain America: Civil War - Flaws/Critiques - Part 1

Yeah, but Ant-Man has been there from the start. They even had very early drafts where he was in team Iron Man.
So I really doubt they changed the tone due to the Spider-Man inclusion. They've talked about how they needed Spidey and Ant-Man for the comic relief, since the overall story is pretty dark, so they wanted to balance it with a lighter tone from the characters which were not so involved in the conflict as other Avengers.

Yeah, that's my point. I don't see how they are gonna handle IW, if they had so much trouble fitting one Spider-Man in the airport.

However, I distinctly remember that they talked about how Spidey had always been their plan A and they had no plan B, they wouldn't have known what to do, had the deal with Sony failed. So by their words, they have never planned the movie without SM.


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Old 08-14-2017, 05:12 PM   #178
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Default Re: What you didn't like about Captain America: Civil War - Flaws/Critiques - Part 1

I distinctly remember them saying they had to rewrite after they got Spider-Man.

That being said, I am so sooo glad Spidey and Ant-Man were at the airport. I actually feel the movie is the only one in the MCU that is too dark and serious.

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Old 08-14-2017, 05:52 PM   #179
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Default Re: What you didn't like about Captain America: Civil War - Flaws/Critiques - Part 1

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I distinctly remember them saying they had to rewrite after they got Spider-Man.

That being said, I am so sooo glad Spidey and Ant-Man were at the airport. I actually feel the movie is the only one in the MCU that is too dark and serious.
I believe this is the interview you're looking for:
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http://comicbook.com/marvel/2016/05/...war-script-du/

"He was in and out all over the place," McFeely told Creative Screenwriting Magazine. "From the very beginning, we knew if we called something Civil War we were going to have to pay off what we called the 'splash panel,' which is that seventeen-minute fight where everyone goes at it.

"It was incumbent upon us to try to fill that with as many heroes as we could without breaking it or forcing people in. We always had a little recruitment section where Tony would get somebody and Steve would get somebody and the rosters would fill organically. Spider-Man was always our first choice for that because [Marvel Studios President] Kevin Feige said to us at one point that there was a chance because he was having conversations [with Sony, which holds the film rights to Spider-Man].

"We had him in, and sometimes a month or two later Kevin would come back and say, 'No, negotiations are not going quite as well. Don’t plan on him!' [Laughs] I don’t know the exact date when corporate signed contracts with Sony, but it eventually led to some hard and fast choices later on."

"In that regard, it was very good that he was in a section where the script would’ve called for somebody there, but there wasn’t necessarily a tremendous amount of quantum mechanics riding on that it had to be Spider-Man," Markus added. "So if we finally didn’t get him, the whole house of cards wouldn’t fall down. It would just mean we would have to come up with a different character to play that function."

I for one feel the opposite about Civil War's tone. If it's supposed to be a dark tale, don't worry about having to please everybody and just own it. Make the airport scene more grim and frightening, with superheroes tearing the place apart and coming to superpowered blows with their friends. Leave Steve's team in prison to nail home that the Avengers as we knew were no more. Leave the breakout for IW.

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Old 08-15-2017, 02:15 AM   #180
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Default Re: What you didn't like about Captain America: Civil War - Flaws/Critiques - Part 1

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I distinctly remember them saying they had to rewrite after they got Spider-Man.
http://www.cbr.com/anthony-russo-rev...ica-civil-war/

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“From the second we had the idea to do the story of ‘Civil War,’ Spider-Man was a part of the story,” he explained. “It was a very complicated business arrangement for Marvel Studios to be able to use Spider-Man from Sony. So, we were always told by Marvel, ‘Don’t count on it, you may not get to use Spider-Man, so you better have a plan B.’ And we were like, ‘Okay, we get it, we have a plan B if don’t get Spider-Man; we’ll figure the movie out.’ But the truth is, we never had a plan B. We only have envisioned the movie with Spider-Man. He was always a part of the story. It was very important to us to reintroduce the character.”


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Old 08-15-2017, 04:48 PM   #181
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Default Re: What you didn't like about Captain America: Civil War - Flaws/Critiques - Part 1

All of that was just nonsense really. They were pushing that narrative to help the case for Marvel/Spider-Man deal and they basically admitted that later.

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Old 08-15-2017, 11:10 PM   #182
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Default Re: What you didn't like about Captain America: Civil War - Flaws/Critiques - Part 1

That quote always confused me.

Spiderman did not have an integral part in the story at all, not like Black Panther for example. You could've removed him entirely and no drastic changes would've been made.

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Old 08-16-2017, 03:35 AM   #183
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Default Re: What you didn't like about Captain America: Civil War - Flaws/Critiques - Part 1

I think the Russos just articulated it badly. I think what they really meant is that they integrated Spidey into the airport battle so much, that they couldn't imagine how to rewrite it without him. And since this battle is basically the "face" of the movie and the concept of "civil war", they couldn't have imagined it without him.

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Old 08-17-2017, 03:08 PM   #184
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Default Re: What you didn't like about Captain America: Civil War - Flaws/Critiques - Part 1

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I think the Russos just articulated it badly. I think what they really meant is that they integrated Spidey into the airport battle so much, that they couldn't imagine how to rewrite it without him. And since this battle is basically the "face" of the movie and the concept of "civil war", they couldn't have imagined it without him.
If they wrote a character (that they didn't own the rights to) so deeply into their biggest set piece that a plan B wasn't possible, that's so mind-bogglingly foolish of them.

That the spotlight of its centerpiece action scene was given to two characters with ZERO stakes to the plot is one of my biggest beefs with Civil War.

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Old 08-17-2017, 03:13 PM   #185
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Default Re: What you didn't like about Captain America: Civil War - Flaws/Critiques - Part 1

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If they wrote a character (that they didn't own the rights to) so deeply into their biggest set piece that a plan B wasn't possible, that's so mind-bogglingly foolish of them.

That the spotlight of its centerpiece action scene was given to two characters with ZERO stakes to the plot is one of my biggest beefs with Civil War.
I thought the centerpiece action scene was the Iron Man vs Captain America fight at the very end and that had the most stakes.

They'd even ripped the panel where Cap is blocking Tony's Hand beams at close range.

I guess you'd need to clarify what you consider a centerpiece action scene... as there's a few of action sequence.


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Old 08-17-2017, 09:35 PM   #186
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Default Re: What you didn't like about Captain America: Civil War - Flaws/Critiques - Part 1

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I thought the centerpiece action scene was the Iron Man vs Captain America fight at the very end and that had the most stakes.

They'd even ripped the panel where Cap is blocking Tony's Hand beams at close range.

I guess you'd need to clarify what you consider a centerpiece action scene... as there's a few of action sequence.
They spent a ton of time introducing all the characters just to make them plausibly fight each other at the airport. Trailers, posters and concept art heavily featured the heroes all fighting each other and taking sides.

If the airport fight wasn't the centrepiece they would have trimmed back the number of character introductions.

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Old 01-01-2018, 02:12 PM   #187
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Default Re: What you didn't like about Captain America: Civil War - Flaws/Critiques - Part 1

Dissapointed by the portraying Iron Man as quite weak and not superhero enough. His abilities are so much bigger than it was shown in the film. He is able to fly at hypersonic (or at least supersonic) speed, he was meant to be able to catch rhodey easily before he hits the ground at the airport scene.....another mistake is that he loses against Cap in a fight, Iron Man is able to kill Bucky within few seconds, the same with cap.....
And the whole airport scene.....Iron Man has problems with fighting Hawkeye or Falcon? ********....I know he was going easy on them but come on!!!! The only Avengers that could make problems to him are Thor, Hulk, Vision, Wanda and maybe Cap if he prepares for him and has strategical advantage just as he had in the last fight in Siberia (small area, close range, two on one, moment of surprise etc...)...
Come on Iron Man fought Thor and came out with tied result lets say, he is able to withstand fight with Hulk and suddenly he has problems wih Cap, Hawkeye or Falcon....
That's poor writing.....

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Old 01-02-2018, 08:45 AM   #188
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Default Re: What you didn't like about Captain America: Civil War - Flaws/Critiques - Part 1

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Dissapointed by the portraying Iron Man as quite weak and not superhero enough. His abilities are so much bigger than it was shown in the film. He is able to fly at hypersonic (or at least supersonic) speed, he was meant to be able to catch rhodey easily before he hits the ground at the airport scene.....another mistake is that he loses against Cap in a fight, Iron Man is able to kill Bucky within few seconds, the same with cap.....
And the whole airport scene.....Iron Man has problems with fighting Hawkeye or Falcon? ********....I know he was going easy on them but come on!!!! The only Avengers that could make problems to him are Thor, Hulk, Vision, Wanda and maybe Cap if he prepares for him and has strategical advantage just as he had in the last fight in Siberia (small area, close range, two on one, moment of surprise etc...)...
Come on Iron Man fought Thor and came out with tied result lets say, he is able to withstand fight with Hulk and suddenly he has problems wih Cap, Hawkeye or Falcon....
That's poor writing.....
Thor clearly would have beat Iron Man in Avengers. He was breaking his suit, while Thor seemed unphased. As for fighting Hulk, he was in an armor designed for it. In his standard armor, Hulk wins easily.

In this fight, Cap had several advantages over Iron Man like you pointed out. So, it worked for me. Like you also said, he was taking it easy on them, and not taking the fight seriously.

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Old 02-19-2018, 05:18 AM   #189
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Default Re: What you didn't like about Captain America: Civil War - Flaws/Critiques - Part 1

Rewatched Civil War last night and, while still a favorite, I'm wondering how the hell did they catch Wanda/Falcon/Hawkeye/Ant-Man after the airport fight. Ant-Man was just there with the suit, he could've gone away, same with Wanda. Any ideas how?

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Old 02-19-2018, 07:40 AM   #190
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Default Re: What you didn't like about Captain America: Civil War - Flaws/Critiques - Part 1

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Rewatched Civil War last night and, while still a favorite, I'm wondering how the hell did they catch Wanda/Falcon/Hawkeye/Ant-Man after the airport fight. Ant-Man was just there with the suit, he could've gone away, same with Wanda. Any ideas how?
They surrendered in order to create a distraction to allow Cap to get away. Also when Rhodey was injured, I imagine they all felt somber and not like fighting anymore.

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Old 02-19-2018, 08:47 AM   #191
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They surrendered in order to create a distraction to allow Cap to get away. Also when Rhodey was injured, I imagine they all felt somber and not like fighting anymore.
Yeah, that makes sense.

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Old 04-22-2018, 03:46 PM   #192
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Default Re: What you didn't like about Captain America: Civil War - Flaws/Critiques - Part 1

Due to Infinity War coming up I was doing a mini-marathon of the MCU movies, and I included Civil War on the list because it's the movie that shows pretty much where at least half of the characters are before Thanos shows up... yet I can't bring myself to watch it again.

First, it's pretty clear that they edited some of the Sharon/Steve scenes, and after they did that they should have also cut the kiss. Because what we're left with seeing is two people that apparently haven't spoken since TWS, & only get some eye contact during a rather odd funeral scene, before a few quips after Steve keeps a SWAT team from executing Bucky, so when she shows up with all of their stuff and Steve kisses her, it took her actions from "CIA agent making a really difficult call because of how she read the situation" to "girl who stole shiny things for the boy with big biceps that she likes". They really should have skipped the funeral scene and instead had Steve and Sharon meeting up after Peggy's death and through dialog make it clear they've been talking to each other on the regular, that he's aware of her relationship to Peggy, and have her relate the "No, you move" story after Steve mentions his conflicted feelings about the Accords. And even then, still skip the kiss. I know she's his girlfriend in the comics, but if you don't have the time to build the relationship in the movies, skip the relationship.

I would have liked more interaction between Steve and Bucky, but things were moving pretty fast so... not sure how that could have been helped unless they just made the movie longer.

The fact that Ross's arguments were complete BS and no one called him on it. In three of the four instances he brings up as to why they need oversite, they had oversite. It was the SHIELD council that nearly killed millions of people via a nuke during the Battle of New York. It was SHIELD letting a fascist group grow right under their nose that nearly killed millions of people had those carriers launched. And in Ultron, Steve *was* the oversite, but Tony (and Bruce) went behind his back. And then later did it again and when Steve tried to stop them Tony punched him. So it's a little odd that Tony sides so completely with Ross saying they all need accountability since we know based on Tony's past actions that he'll just ignore whoever he feels like when he wants to do something. Nor would Tony ever face the consequences of it if he did. Basically, he seems to want rules for everyone else, but he'll still get to do what he wants, and he knows it.

Other than his guilt, Tony is pretty much the only one arguing for the Accords whose thinking I do not follow or understand. There is an article linked on here where one of the Russo brothers talks about how in IW Tony's motivations are revealed to have all been about whatever threat he feels coming. What I don't understand is WHY DIDN'T HE JUST SAY THAT in Civil War? That would have been a great way to tie this movie into the overall story leading up to Infinity War. Have Tony tell Steve he needs them all to sign because he needs the resources of all the world governments, but Steve can't because he's not the type of person to ignore an immediate problem. He's just not built that way. And the threat Zemo poses is too great to ignore. Plus, Steve clearly has trust issues now with any governmental body, even ones he might need. (Sending out a kill squad on Bucky without any kind of trail didn't help.) At least then their conflict would be rooted in things outside themselves and both for a greater good. Just... different greater goods. Plus, if they had framed Tony's reasoning better, I'd feel less uncomfortable with him bringing in a high schooler to a battle between superheroes.

Zemo's plan did seem to rely on a lot of things that he couldn't control going his way, but he also just seemed to be poking at weaknesses between them that he already knew where there and just how the Avengers broke apart wasn't as important, so I feel like a lot of what he does is actually in reaction to the moves they make. He gets this, they do that, so he moves *over here* instead of *over there*. But having someone else on the inside, even if it wasn't Sharon, would have gone a long way to make him seem less lucky.

The fact that Bucky, a supposedly highly trained (although brainwashed) assassin, would stand face front to a camera after going to all the trouble of making a hit look like an accident was silly. Or the fact that security cameras would be that clear in the 90s on a random road. I understand Tony's reaction though. No, he doesn't talk about his mother all the time. Probably because she died nearly 30 years ago. But seeing how they died, so brutally, would make that rage completely fresh for anyone. However, I do not blame Steve for not telling Tony. Why would Steve paint a gigantic, billionaire with a history of making global weapons, target on Bucky's back when he knows Bucky went through hell, that Bucky didn't do anything of his own free will, and he probably needs a lot of help? What kind of ******* friend of Bucky's would that make him? Bucky is the solvable problem. There is nothing Steve can do about Tony's parents. Plus, we don't actually know what Steve knows. Sure it's easy to suppose he figured it out. But that is not shown in the movies. All we see is Zola flashing files and images at them, and then just a few moments later admits he was stalling them so they could be neutralized, making anything he told them suspect. But there is nothing that says who actually carried out the mission. And later Steve is given an extremely slim file by Natasha that wouldn't have anything about it since it all seems to predate... everything. Hydra clearly didn't have mission files or any more details about it or after Nat put everything on the web Tony would have known a long time ago his parents were murdered by them, if not specifically by the Winter Soldier. So assuming what Steve knew in order to argue keeping it from Tony was wrong is unfair. And it's also odd to me to think Steve owes Tony the truth more than he owes Bucky a chance to live.

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