Do you think audiences today like optimism more?

[Parker Wayne]

Originally Posted by DACrowe

Talk about fanning a fanboy fight.

To answer the OP, audiences always throughout history like happy endings. They're usually uncontroversial and leave audiences pleased. Also, if the story is told well (be it The Dark Knight, The Godfather, Gone with the Wind, Casablanca, or Romeo and Juliet and Hamlet) they like sad endings or more "Depressing" fare.

Iron Man and The Dark Knight both made bank in 2008. Black Swan and The King's Speech can both clean up during the holidays and January. And yes, there's room for The Avengers and The Dark Knight Rises in the same summer.

I agree.

The way I see, it's about audience liking optimism more or not. They always liked optimism and they always liked darker movies. It's more a matter of making a movie that's good and crowd pleasing.

I remember someone in another thread talking about this too. Some great movies with more somber endings don't succeed at the B.O. because they aren't crowd pleasing. The best example is Drive. Drive to me, is a great movie that I love, but it's not the easiest movie to watch because it starts off very slow, the action doesn't last long, and to be honest, Refn does leave the camera running. He reminds me of Sergio Leone (Drive is more Leone-esque than Tarantino esque, but I'll save that for the unpopular opinion thread ).

It's not about tone as it is as much quality and appeal. You can predict what appeal a movie can have, but if it doesn't have the quality people aren't going to flock to it. Battleship is the best example of this. You can hide this to a degree with marketing and brand names (which is why bad movies like the Transformers and Pirates sequels gross so much), but ultimately if the quality isn't there they won't become the high grossing movie.

There's a reason that of the top 10 movies domestically, only one of them is rotten on Rotten Tomatoes (Pirates 2: Dead Man's Chest), and of the top 50 grossing movies domestically, only 2 non sequels are rotten (Passion of the Christ and Transformers).

In short, it's not about tone as it is quality, marketing, and appeal (and sometimes timing ala Avatar). All must align perfectly for a great movie that will gross high at the box office. A movie with a dark tone can survive the box office if it appeals to a wide audience and it crowd pleasing.

[hopefuldreamer]

Originally Posted by Gianakin_

And I still disagree with Devin's implications that Nolan's Batfilms are cynical. That guy is so blindsided, it's not even funny.

Agree with you there.

TDK is one of the most optimistic movies i've ever seen, in terms of it's comment on the good in people.

That scene with the two Ferry's both failing to blow each other up, was such a feel good, optimistic moment.

[The Morningstar]

Ugh i hated that scene hahaha. I get what it represented, but it just seemed a bit contrived and overly preachy to me.

[hopefuldreamer]

Originally Posted by The Morningstar

Ugh i hated that scene hahaha.

I just so want to believe it could happen

I mean, there's a huge chunk of me saying 'nah, one of them would totally have caved', but the optimist in me wants to believe in people as much as Batman did, and have that faith rewarded

[Gianakin_]

Originally Posted by hopefulsuicide

Agree with you there.

TDK is one of the most optimistic movies i've ever seen, in terms of it's comment on the good in people.

That scene with the two Ferry's both failing to blow each other up, was such a feel good, optimistic moment.

Ironically, and I'm not actually being a cynic here, the very fact that they didn't blow each other up is why I give this movie a 9.5/10 and not a 10/10. In real life it would've been a massacre.

But Nolan was being so much the opposite of cynic, that the resolution of the scene is fantastically optimistic. Devin is a piece of s**t "professional" and an even more worthelss audience member if he thinks optimism comes only out of tone.

[Gianakin_]

Originally Posted by hopefulsuicide

I just so want to believe it could happen

I mean, there's a huge chunk of me saying 'nah, one of them would totally have caved', but the optimist in me wants to believe in people as much as Batman did, and have that faith rewarded

And that post, sir, disproves Devin. On its own. No other arguments needed.

[The Morningstar]

Originally Posted by hopefulsuicide

I just so want to believe it could happen

I mean, there's a huge chunk of me saying 'nah, one of them would totally have caved', but the optimist in me wants to believe in people as much as Batman did, and have that faith rewarded

Yea i get ya. I can understand why people liked it. I like the idea behind it, but i thought it was just a bit too on the nose.

[hopefuldreamer]

Originally Posted by Gianakin_

Ironically, and I'm not actually being a cynic here, the very fact that they didn't blow each other up is why I give this movie a 9.5/10 and not a 10/10. In real life it would've been a massacre.

But Nolan was being so much the opposite of cynic, that the resolution of the scene is fantastically optimistic. Devin is a piece of s**t "professional" and an even more worthelss audience member if he thinks optimism comes only out of tone.

Well I guess you're an audience member who doesn't prefer optimism.

But yeah, how people can't see that Nolan's Batman was a total optimist, obsessed with the fact there are plenty of good people in the world, they were just afraid to stand up against the corruption and greed. Which has been his job, and the point of covering up Harvey's actions - to inspire good people to stand up for what they believe in, and prove they don't have to live in fear of these people.

[Gianakin_]

Originally Posted by hopefulsuicide

Well I guess you're an audience member who doesn't prefer optimism.

But yeah, how people can't see that Nolan's Batman was a total optimist, obsessed with the fact there are plenty of good people in the world, they were just afraid to stand up against the corruption and greed. Which has been his job, and the point of covering up Harvey's actions - to inspire good people to stand up for what they believe in, and prove they don't have to live in fear of these people.

Haha, I don't mind optimism and, believe me, although I disagree with that scene's resolution, it's inspiring and refreshing. I'm not that guy, but I want to be like that. And that's a major achievement by TDK.

The thing is, ALL of TDK is about optimism and the struggle to prove this mindset as something viable. Heck, even Nolan's detractors who claim he conveys everything via blunt exposition will remember that he tells his guests at the penthouse party that Dent can help make Gotham a little moer optimistic. But, well, idiots like Devin prove to me that Nolan does well to include exposition in his screenplays. It doesn't get wasted.

[hopefuldreamer]

Originally Posted by Gianakin_

Haha, I don't mind optimism and, believe me, although I disagree with that scene's resolution, it's inspiring and refreshing. I'm not that guy, but I want to be like that. And that's a major achievement by TDK.

The thing is, ALL of TDK is about optimism and the struggle to prove this mindset as something viable. Heck, even Nolan's detractors who claim he conveys everything via blunt exposition will remember that he tells his guests at the penthouse party that Dent can help make Gotham a little moer optimistic. But, well, idiots like Devin prove to me that Nolan does well to include exposition in his screenplays. It doesn't get wasted.

Yeah it's ridiculous.

Some people just can't see past the face of things.

Reminds me of one of my favourite songs, by a band called staind. They're an alternative metal group, quite a grungy sound, and everyone always says they sound depressing and the song is called 'Suffer'... So you can imagine the reaction.

And yet, the lyrics are:

'And then I come to find everything's O.K. seen this all before but that was yesterday. I try to walk right
through the messes that I've made just let me enjoy the life here that I've made'.

Like how is that not inspiring? Just because the 'tone' isn't happy go lucky.

[Gianakin_]

Exactly. I know the band and the song, btw.

[hopefuldreamer]

Originally Posted by Gianakin_

Exactly. I know the band and the song, btw.

I know it starts off all negative, but that's the point. It's highlighting getting OVER those negative aspects and coming out optimistic.

Which is basically what BB/TDK does.

It shows you the bad in the world, so that you really feel the impact Batman has for the better.

[Gianakin_]

You're only as good as your opponent, isn't that what they say?

Sigh, at least msot people get and that's why both the Avengers and TDKR will be successful and they won't try to pull "algortihms" out of their asses.

[baerrtt]

As people have said here if a movie engages a mass audience it doesn't matter how 'dark' it is.

Back in the summer of '98 a season filled with feel good, optmistic blockbusters (ARMAGEDDON, THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT MARY etc) that made huge bank the top grosser domestically, indeed of the entire year, turned out to be SAVING PRIVATE RYAN a 3 hr war movie filled with graphic violence of the disturbing NC-17 variety and an atmosphere that wavered between grim and sombre that lasts up until that final metaphorical shot of the US flag dimly shot and almost blackened.

Look or indeed watch the top grossing movies yearly of ANY decade and they don't all share the same tone.

The 1930s saw the likes of FRANKENSTEIN top it's year, 1931, domestically despite being a story with an inevitable tragic ending. In the 1940s where patriotic war or war inspired movies such as SGT YORK, MRS MINIVER and THIS IS THE ARMY topped their respective years because they were inspirational tales during and after the darks days of World War 2 you had a movie like THE RED SHOES top it's year, 1948, despite an ending that may be one of the most genuinely bleak and upsetting in mainstream cinema (I recommend it to anyone who hasn't seen it cos trust me the dark endings of TDK or TESB having absolutely nothing on it LOL!).

Vice versa as someone pointed out in the summer of TDK we had the likes of IRON MAN and MAMMA MIA become genuine phenoms. Yes there's nothing wrong with pointing to what the country or indeed the world is going through socially in figuring out why certain movies hit big. The thing is as stated above things aren't always that consistent.

[weezerspider]

I don't see Nolan's Batman films as pessimistic or Optimistic. I see them as realistic, matter-of-fact. The facts are, there are crazy people in the world that just want to watch the world burn. However, there are also plenty of people with great good in them that make wonderful sacrifices to help others. A real life example of both of these are the events of 9/11. We saw the "men who want to watch the world burn" tear down two buildings. We saw the greater good inside us in the form of firefighters saving people in those very buildings. Nolan's films show both sides, just like life, which is one reason I love them so much.

[Mike]

Tdk ferry scene was great. It went into the moral of everyday people. how frightened panicky, and selfish most people aboard the ferrys responded to being a part of a terrorist act. Lol and it was more of the average citizens of gotham ready to cut the cord, instead of the prisoners.

[-Arya-]

Originally Posted by Boom

Honestly, this is just one of those things that is impossible to figure out.

People choose to see a movie because they want to see it - for whatever reason. Pointing at The Avengers' success and saying "Clearly people are more interested in escapist, optimistic films these days" is a remarkable oversimplification.

Thank you very much.

[Gianakin_]

Originally Posted by weezerspider

I don't see Nolan's Batman films as pessimistic or Optimistic. I see them as realistic, matter-of-fact. The facts are, there are crazy people in the world that just want to watch the world burn. However, there are also plenty of people with great good in them that make wonderful sacrifices to help others. A real life example of both of these are the events of 9/11. We saw the "men who want to watch the world burn" tear down two buildings. We saw the greater good inside us in the form of firefighters saving people in those very buildings. Nolan's films show both sides, just like life, which is one reason I love them so much.

While I agree, we need to look at how Nolan decided to resolve the ferry dilemma, and therein lies the optimism, because ultimately that resolution was one of the writers' messages to the audience.