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Old 11-26-2013, 02:33 PM   #726
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I do think people judged MOS harsher than they did some other films of the genre. I wouldn't necessarily say that it was all due to love for the Donner films (though I did read plenty of snarky comments from critics in which they seemed to have the attitude of, "Oh hear we go again, another Superman origin story"). But it seems that at least some of them had an idea of what a Superman movie was "supposed" to be--and it's possible that this is simply due to previous knowledge of the character and not necessarily the previous films--and whenever this film deviated from that, it failed for them. Add that to the fact that many critics have an ax to grind with Snyder for his previous work.

An interesting film to compare it to would be Thor: The Dark World, which has a higher overall RT score but a lower RT score according to "top critics." Now, I have seen both films and while I'll admit right off the bat that I'm a much bigger Superman fan than I am a Thor fan, I'm also a fan of the genre and I want to enjoy ALL of these movies. But to me, MOS was a vastly superior film to Thor 2. The only place I'd say the two movies were on par would be performances of some of the very well-cast lead actors (in MOS's case, Cavill and Adams, in Thor's case, Hemsworth and Hiddleston). But I'd say MOS easily trumps Thor 2 in every other category: story, direction, special effects, supporting cast, score.

In conclusion, it's all subjective. But as many have said here, I do think that at least some critics (and plenty of fans) have nitpicked certain aspects of MOS to death while they've ignored those flaws in other (inferior) films.

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Old 11-26-2013, 02:45 PM   #727
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by Lord View Post
RT is actually a good way judge films, their scores are mostly right. Critics around here aren't near as kind with their ratings, there's one who keeps giving one out of 5 stars (it goes from zero to 5) to The Dark Knight, Lord of the Rings, new Nolan films, etc
You forgot to add "because I mostly agree with them."

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Old 11-26-2013, 03:32 PM   #728
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I do think people judged MOS harsher than they did some other films of the genre. I wouldn't necessarily say that it was all due to love for the Donner films (though I did read plenty of snarky comments from critics in which they seemed to have the attitude of, "Oh hear we go again, another Superman origin story"). But it seems that at least some of them had an idea of what a Superman movie was "supposed" to be--and it's possible that this is simply due to previous knowledge of the character and not necessarily the previous films--and whenever this film deviated from that, it failed for them. Add that to the fact that many critics have an ax to grind with Snyder for his previous work.
...
^This

When an Editor of the site publicly scratches her head such as:
“As much as I love and respect our critics at Rotten Tomatoes, I’ve got to say I am shocked. Listen, the movie’s not perfect but…I just cannot fathom it. It was a good movie, you guys."
And the film is actually scoring higher than other films are out of ten, not to mention the audience score...

It's indicative of something more going on than simply, yea it was that bad.
It might even explain 4pts.

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Old 11-26-2013, 03:41 PM   #729
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Reviews can be useful, as long as you are being balanced in your approach. Find a good review, find a bad review, and somewhere in between is the truth. It's true for just about anything, be it a movie or a car.

So anyway, the disguise. I think it'll be fine in the next film. I like the idea of Superman having allies who know his secret. It certainly makes more sense.

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Old 11-26-2013, 03:45 PM   #730
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I think a lot of it was hyped expectations.

Coming off the back of TDK trilogy and Avengers, people weren't looking for something at Thor or Batman Begins level for Man of Steel - especially with them throwing Nolan and Goyers name on it, and getting truly incredible actors involved.

And also, with the serious and artsy way they marketed it, particularly in the beginning, I think a lot of people went in thinking what I did - that this was going to be a truly GREAT film, something that could be widely well respected.

Now don't get me wrong, it is truly great to have a new Superman movie out there, and it's not a bad film by any means. There are a lot of good things to say about it, and a lot of reasons why I enjoy repeat veiwings.

But it's not great. It doesn't stand up next to TDK and the Avengers from a film critics point of view. It doesn't stand up as a film in and of itself, outside of the genre. It is just a good film within it's genre.

And so they've judged it harshly by that ridiculous standard.

Especially because it's Superman.

It's almost like Thor can get away with being mediocre because he's not as big a property - but they expect all the stops to be pulled out for Superman.

I dunno, that's my take on why it got the level of 'negative' reviews it did.

I'm not saying there were NO reviewers that were fans of the Donner films and panned it for that reason.

I just don't think that's where the majority of it comes from.

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Old 11-26-2013, 04:37 PM   #731
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I can say I let myself be fooled by the marketing.

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Old 11-26-2013, 04:43 PM   #732
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
^This

When an Editor of the site publicly scratches her head such as:
“As much as I love and respect our critics at Rotten Tomatoes, I’ve got to say I am shocked. Listen, the movie’s not perfect but…I just cannot fathom it. It was a good movie, you guys."
And the film is actually scoring higher than other films are out of ten, not to mention the audience score...

It's indicative of something more going on than simply, yea it was that bad.
It might even explain 4pts.
Yeah. It is pretty bizarre.

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Old 11-26-2013, 04:46 PM   #733
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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You forgot to add "because I mostly agree with them."
I don't like Lincoln, but i recognize the quality of the film, i like Chronicles of Riddick, but i know it's not a great movie. Tastes aren't the same as evaluating a film for what it is.

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Old 11-26-2013, 04:48 PM   #734
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I think a lot of it was hyped expectations.

Coming off the back of TDK trilogy and Avengers, people weren't looking for something at Thor or Batman Begins level for Man of Steel - especially with them throwing Nolan and Goyers name on it, and getting truly incredible actors involved.

And also, with the serious and artsy way they marketed it, particularly in the beginning, I think a lot of people went in thinking what I did - that this was going to be a truly GREAT film, something that could be widely well respected.

Now don't get me wrong, it is truly great to have a new Superman movie out there, and it's not a bad film by any means. There are a lot of good things to say about it, and a lot of reasons why I enjoy repeat veiwings.

But it's not great. It doesn't stand up next to TDK and the Avengers from a film critics point of view. It doesn't stand up as a film in and of itself, outside of the genre. It is just a good film within it's genre.

And so they've judged it harshly by that ridiculous standard.

Especially because it's Superman.

It's almost like Thor can get away with being mediocre because he's not as big a property - but they expect all the stops to be pulled out for Superman.

I dunno, that's my take on why it got the level of 'negative' reviews it did.

I'm not saying there were NO reviewers that were fans of the Donner films and panned it for that reason.

I just don't think that's where the majority of it comes from.
All of that does make sense. The only thing I don't agree with there is that I actually did think it was on the same level as TDK or The Avengers, but I understand that most people didn't.

But yeah, I do think some people got caught up with the whole "it's Superman" thing and felt it had to be a certain way or fit there definition of "great" on every level. I think that's part of the problem Superman will always run into though; even though a lot of fans want him to be the Big Blue Boyscout who will always do the right thing and is all-powerful, that turns just as many other people off. I think the key is striking the right balance, which is a lot harder to do now than it was in 1978 because we've been bombarded with other superhero films.

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Old 11-26-2013, 04:51 PM   #735
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I don't like Lincoln, but i recognize the quality of the film, i like Chronicles of Riddick, but i know it's not a great movie. Tastes aren't the same as evaluating a film for what it is.
I agree. Though i'd say SOME films fall somewhere in the middle and muddy the waters.

I don't neccesarily think MOS is one of them, i'm just saying it's not always that cut and dry.

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Old 11-26-2013, 05:32 PM   #736
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by Rowsdower! View Post
I do think people judged MOS harsher than they did some other films of the genre. I wouldn't necessarily say that it was all due to love for the Donner films (though I did read plenty of snarky comments from critics in which they seemed to have the attitude of, "Oh hear we go again, another Superman origin story"). But it seems that at least some of them had an idea of what a Superman movie was "supposed" to be--and it's possible that this is simply due to previous knowledge of the character and not necessarily the previous films--and whenever this film deviated from that, it failed for them. Add that to the fact that many critics have an ax to grind with Snyder for his previous work.

An interesting film to compare it to would be Thor: The Dark World, which has a higher overall RT score but a lower RT score according to "top critics." Now, I have seen both films and while I'll admit right off the bat that I'm a much bigger Superman fan than I am a Thor fan, I'm also a fan of the genre and I want to enjoy ALL of these movies. But to me, MOS was a vastly superior film to Thor 2. The only place I'd say the two movies were on par would be performances of some of the very well-cast lead actors (in MOS's case, Cavill and Adams, in Thor's case, Hemsworth and Hiddleston). But I'd say MOS easily trumps Thor 2 in every other category: story, direction, special effects, supporting cast, score.

In conclusion, it's all subjective. But as many have said here, I do think that at least some critics (and plenty of fans) have nitpicked certain aspects of MOS to death while they've ignored those flaws in other (inferior) films.


So true. There was obviously some kind of weird agenda or bias going on when it came to the bizarre reviews for MOS. Double standards, contradiction and hypocrisy all wrapped together.

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Old 11-26-2013, 05:37 PM   #737
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I'll agree with that.

But I also have to say that CBMs like "The Dark Knight" and "Avengers" significantly raised the bar for these genre films. I think they're held to a higher standard nowadays.

Yes.

Keep falling back to some random guys complaints about MOS on youtube or fall back on the inconsistent, yet precious RT scores.



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Old 11-26-2013, 05:40 PM   #738
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I agree. Though i'd say SOME films fall somewhere in the middle and muddy the waters.

I don't neccesarily think MOS is one of them, i'm just saying it's not always that cut and dry.
Then pardon me by saying, but while i enjoyed The Man of Steel i think it was a medíocre film

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Plenty of male-led action films fail, yet the actors' gender is not blamed. Why should it be different for women? Especially since far more male-led action films are made than female-led action films?
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Old 11-26-2013, 05:46 PM   #739
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Then pardon me by saying, but while i enjoyed The Man of Steel i think it was a medíocre film
I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that. It's your opinion and you're entitled to have it. What I don't like is trying to convince everyone that your opinion matters over theirs because of reviews or BO or some other such nonsense. I'm not saying your are doing this, but some here seem to be on that path.

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Old 11-26-2013, 05:50 PM   #740
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Not sure what the hell you're talking about.

I never said RT was a system that everyone should agree with. If you look back at my previous posts on the matter, you'll see I made clear that critical reviews are divergent from the subjectivity of audience and fan reviews.

My point was that critical reviews can be weighed, and a film being a critical success or a critical disappointment can be evaluated from the set data (the reviews, positive or negative) given.

Whether you agree with the critics or the ratings system is another story.


I think you should watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...7i_u31U#t=1352

This is more or less my perspective on film critics as well.




The only thing that would skew me to dislike it are some of the divisive plot points carried over from MoS, though it all depends how they're handled in this sequel.
I don't even think you understand what I'm saying. And I'm not watching anything. My previous post explains it all. I think you're desperate to "prove" a movie sucks and are grasping at straws. That's all I have to say.

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Old 11-26-2013, 09:29 PM   #741
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Superman brought the spaceship from Kent farm.
No you see a scene where the military is loading up the ship.

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Old 11-26-2013, 10:37 PM   #742
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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And so they've judged it harshly by that ridiculous standard.

Especially because it's Superman.
With Superman, more than any other hero, people get bogged down in the little things. His 'secret' identity. Where does he keep his cape and boots when transforming with a shirt rip, etc. For some these become big things, when the concept boils down to an alien wanting to be human and inspire good. The themes are a lot stronger than the minutia, which is part of why Red Son and others are simply amazing stories.

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Old 11-26-2013, 10:55 PM   #743
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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With Superman, more than any other hero, people get bogged down in the little things. His 'secret' identity. Where does he keep his cape and boots when transforming with a shirt rip, etc. For some these become big things, when the concept boils down to an alien wanting to be human and inspire good. The themes are a lot stronger than the minutia, which is part of why Red Son and others are simply amazing stories.
If MoS was literally a Red Son adaptation.
Rotten Tomatoes would have blown up. Do that with the thor movie, do it with batman even(at this point) but that's just it, people (think they)want 'their' superman. The tragedy is it's either too different or too boring for one group at the end of the day.

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Old 11-26-2013, 11:37 PM   #744
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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The point is that it's not as simple a decision as you think.
I never said it was a simple decision, so I don't know where you're getting that from.

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The implication is that some of Smallville citizens could've easily exposed and rejected Clark and the Kents at some point.
Based on what? Correct me if I'm wrong, because it's been a while since I've seen the movie, but the only people who ever actually saw Clark in action were children who were probably traumatized by almost dying.

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Goyer's words...
Don't matter to me. What matters is what was shown on screen.

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It is relevant. The whole point is that Smallville may come to accept and possibly protect Clark, but you can't reasonably expect the whole world to react that way.
1) He has no way of knowing how they would actually react or what the general consensus would be after they were given time to adjust to the information.

2) So you're saying that they all deserve to die because of that uncertainty?

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His whole demeanour has changed after he went to the North Pole.
Yes, it did. He was a lot more confident and sure of himself. But happy? I dunno about that.

Quote:
He was tormented when he had no idea of his origins, but once he met Jor-El's consciousness and got a flashback of Krypton's downfall, he was relieved and genuinely happy.
For the last time: just because he was capable of being happy at times doesn't mean that he was a happy person in general.

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I'm not sure where people are coming from saying that he's tortured/sad/mopey/etc.
I'm not one of the people saying those things, so I can't help you.

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I wouldn't necessarily say interpret. There are some quotes/panels/etc in which this idea is made blatant.
And others that completely contradict it. This isn't a battle either of us is going to win.

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If you look at it from the perspective of Ross and his mom, they were grateful for what Clark did. In fact, so much so that Ross refrained from bullying him. The "unpleasantries" (if you can even call it that), seem to stem from Clark's inability to figure out where he's come from.
I honestly can't figure out how you could call anything about his upbringing pleasant. Not only was Clark shunned and bullied by his classmates (classmates. Plural. Pete wasn't the only one bullying him), but he watched his father (who came across as startlingly cold) die right in front of his eyes when he could have saved him.

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That's hardly a reason to justify the other extreme though. I'm sure we've all been bullied at one point in our lives, it doesn't mean that the said person's life is unpleasant.
I'm working with what the film gave me. I don't remember him smiling, laughing, having fun, or even looking like he was happy to be alive.

Quote:
So to say that they went too far in the deep end isn't really fair considering what humans are capable of (yes, the capacity to be loving is also there, but not surprisingly, that's also overshadowed by our stupidity/hatred/etc).
It's absolutely fair. Going too far in that direction makes the viewer wonder why Superman even bothers with us in the first place. I never once said the bad side of humanity shouldn't have been shown; what I was saying was we should've seen more of the good.

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In what ways would the capacity to be loving be shown otherwise?
Compare how accepting we are of homosexuals now than we were 20 or 30 years ago. Look at how many people volunteer to go to impoverished nations and lend a helping hand. Look at how many people donate to charities or give blood or provide food and clothing for the less fortunate. Seriously, man, did you really just ask that question?

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If that's not proof that Superman is trying to prove himself to humanity, I don't know what is.
I don't recall humanity accepting him. I don't recall seeing how anyone reacts to him outside of Lois, a few of her coworkers, and the military.

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Traumatized over what, and why?
His crappy childhood? Watching (letting) his father die?

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...But even then, it's not like he's a tortured hero.
1) That doesn't mean he isn't traumatized.

2) That's debatable.

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Old 11-26-2013, 11:38 PM   #745
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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No you see a scene where the military is loading up the ship.
The military is loading the ship after superman brought it to airbase.

Then Superman was going after the World engine on the Indian ocean and military was taking Kal's ship, Dr Hamilton , Lois and others in Boeing C-17 Globemaster III aircraft to Metropolis where Black Zero ship was causing destruction.

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Old 11-27-2013, 12:44 AM   #746
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Based on what? Correct me if I'm wrong, because it's been a while since I've seen the movie, but the only people who ever actually saw Clark in action were children who were probably traumatized by almost dying.
It's shown that at least one parent was told about Clark's ability. It's probable that some of the other kids told their parents as well. If anything odd happened in Smallville after that, guess where they'd look first?

Logic. It isn't hard to use.

Quote:
1) He has no way of knowing how they would actually react or what the general consensus would be after they were given time to adjust to the information.

2) So you're saying that they all deserve to die because of that uncertainty?
1. He has plenty of examples of how people react to things are different. Look at any portion of human history. Even today, many people try to suppress or change who they are in order to avoid bullying. Clark's caution is realistic.

2. Who said anyone deserves to die? If you're referring to what Jonathan Kent said, he said, "Maybe", and he sounded uncertain. If you're referring back to Clark's hesitation about turning himself in, then you misread that entire scene.

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For the last time: just because he was capable of being happy at times doesn't mean that he was a happy person in general.
What are you going on about now? Clark has been unsettled and unhappy in the comics. Stop acting like Goyer did something weird to Superman. He didn't.

Not that I think that Clark seemed unhappy all the time.

Quote:
I honestly can't figure out how you could call anything about his upbringing pleasant. Not only was Clark shunned and bullied by his classmates (classmates. Plural. Pete wasn't the only one bullying him), but he watched his father (who came across as startlingly cold) die right in front of his eyes when he could have saved him.
We saw small snippets that worked in tandem with the story that was being told at the time. I could see that his parents loved him (even if you thought his dad was "cold" for some reason). We saw photos of him with his dad, smiling and happy from winning a science fair, and from a fishing trip, among other things.

Clark had parents who loved and protected him. He may have been bullied, but he had good people who taught him to handle the emotional pain with grace and dignity. There are hints that Pete was kind to him, and I'm sure that not Every. Single. Person. in the world was horrible to him.

You do realize that people can have even more horrendous lives than what Clark faced, and turn out to be productive, happy people, right?

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I'm working with what the film gave me. I don't remember him smiling, laughing, having fun, or even looking like he was happy to be alive.
He gives Lois some brilliant smiles, he gave Chrissy a lovely smile. He positively lit up with joy when he was learning to fly. True, he's not all laughing and lolling about in the film -- there wasn't time to do so.

Quote:
It's absolutely fair. Going too far in that direction makes the viewer wonder why Superman even bothers with us in the first place. I never once said the bad side of humanity shouldn't have been shown; what I was saying was we should've seen more of the good.
We did see the good side of humanity. Many, many times over.

Quote:
Compare how accepting we are of homosexuals now than we were 20 or 30 years ago. Look at how many people volunteer to go to impoverished nations and lend a helping hand. Look at how many people donate to charities or give blood or provide food and clothing for the less fortunate. Seriously, man, did you really just ask that question?
There's been a little progress. People are more out than they were previously, but just like racism, it's still pretty ugly out there for people who are not heterosexual. That's why it's so easy to understand why Clark was wary of 'outing' himself.

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Old 11-27-2013, 09:53 AM   #747
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by charl_huntress View Post
I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that. It's your opinion and you're entitled to have it. What I don't like is trying to convince everyone that your opinion matters over theirs because of reviews or BO or some other such nonsense. I'm not saying your are doing this, but some here seem to be on that path.
Yeah, that's what annoys me. It's one thing to debate the movie's quality; it's another thing entirely to act like someone's opinion is invalid just because they liked it and a bunch of critics didn't. And by that logic, it still doesn't really work because even if you're going by the RT score, the majority of critics liked the film. While it's true that I wish it would have achieved the coveted "fresh" rating, at the very least, MOST didn't fall below 50%, meaning that more critics approved of it than didn't.

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Old 11-27-2013, 04:47 PM   #748
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Add that to the fact that many critics have an ax to grind with Snyder for his previous work.
Good point! IMO this has to be where some of this hate is coming from. People just don't like Synder or Goyer or something. As a CBM this movie is really good. I don't get where most of the criticism is coming from and most of it really sounds like baseless critiques and nitpicks. Meh...I'm glad I don't read reviews or things like that. They don't matter to me and I don't think they matter to most of the GA.

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Originally Posted by Rowsdower! View Post
Yeah, that's what annoys me. It's one thing to debate the movie's quality; it's another thing entirely to act like someone's opinion is invalid just because they liked it and a bunch of critics didn't. And by that logic, it still doesn't really work because even if you're going by the RT score, the majority of critics liked the film. While it's true that I wish it would have achieved the coveted "fresh" rating, at the very least, MOST didn't fall below 50%, meaning that more critics approved of it than didn't.
Yeah...it's silly really. I don't get it, but I guess it is what it is. I enjoyed the movie and my mom who is not a CBM fan by any means called me and told me she watched it and liked it.


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Old 11-27-2013, 04:54 PM   #749
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Still trying to find an excuse for why critics dislike the movie?

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Plenty of male-led action films fail, yet the actors' gender is not blamed. Why should it be different for women? Especially since far more male-led action films are made than female-led action films?
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Old 11-27-2013, 04:59 PM   #750
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Still trying to find an excuse for why critics dislike the movie?
No, not trying to find an excuse because I don't care. It baffles me that they don't, but like I said before I don't read reviews so their opinions don't matter to me. Would have I liked for everyone to love the movie like I do...sure, but it's not a big deal if people don't. Everyone is entitled to their opinion...including movie critics.

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