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Old 03-18-2017, 06:32 PM   #26
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Default Re: How to fix the show in Season 2 (spoilers)

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We are never going to see Chi'Lin in his neck I think. Seeing them get knocked out isn't really setting them up for a second season. A setup for next season would be like those epilogue scenes with Davos and Joy and then Colleen and Danny in the Himalayas.
I still want to see Seven Capital Cities of Heaven and you need Bride back for that.

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Old 03-18-2017, 06:33 PM   #27
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Default Re: How to fix the show in Season 2 (spoilers)

Season 1 was also based mostly around the pre-Claremont Marvel Premiere issues which was the weakest IF material that they could have used.


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Old 03-18-2017, 06:44 PM   #28
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Default Re: How to fix the show in Season 2 (spoilers)

I don't think a Netflix show will ever use true computer generated images (I'm sure there's CG for brushing out wires and stuff, though). The red glowing eyes of Shou Lou are far more than I expected. And a dragon coming out of someone's neck is a pipe dream.

I thought the second half of the season was very good. Honestly, they got their feet under them. I certainly want to see the costume early next season and to make it more martial arts forward (as opposed to just the back half), but that back half worked well.

I disagree with those who want changes solely for the sake of the comics. Would I prefer Danny and Misty? Absolutely. But Colleen and Danny had great chemistry and it would feel like such backpeddling to change that now. I'm open to being proven wrong in The Defenders, but I'm happy where things are now.

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Old 03-18-2017, 06:55 PM   #29
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Default Re: How to fix the show in Season 2 (spoilers)

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I don't think a Netflix show will ever use true computer generated images (I'm sure there's CG for brushing out wires and stuff, though). The red glowing eyes of Shou Lou are far more than I expected. And a dragon coming out of someone's neck is a pipe dream.

I thought the second half of the season was very good. Honestly, they got their feet under them. I certainly want to see the costume early next season and to make it more martial arts forward (as opposed to just the back half), but that back half worked well.

I disagree with those who want changes solely for the sake of the comics. Would I prefer Danny and Misty? Absolutely. But Colleen and Danny had great chemistry and it would feel like such backpeddling to change that now. I'm open to being proven wrong in The Defenders, but I'm happy where things are now.
I feel like the second half was stronger but I truly despise what happened with Ward and how people reacted to him during that period. It felt forced and unnatural.

And I know that we never would have gotten the second head since I can't think of a way to do that outside of performance capture which is way too much money for even most films. I thought that maybe we would have gotten a few seconds of a talking face on his chest which is actually pretty cheap to do. Just use layers in Photoshop and repaste the frames in After Effects.

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Old 03-18-2017, 07:14 PM   #30
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Default Re: How to fix the show in Season 2 (spoilers)

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I don't think a Netflix show will ever use true computer generated images (I'm sure there's CG for brushing out wires and stuff, though). The red glowing eyes of Shou Lou are far more than I expected. And a dragon coming out of someone's neck is a pipe dream.

I thought the second half of the season was very good. Honestly, they got their feet under them. I certainly want to see the costume early next season and to make it more martial arts forward (as opposed to just the back half), but that back half worked well.

I disagree with those who want changes solely for the sake of the comics. Would I prefer Danny and Misty? Absolutely. But Colleen and Danny had great chemistry and it would feel like such backpeddling to change that now. I'm open to being proven wrong in The Defenders, but I'm happy where things are now.
Change what, exactly? Danny and Colleen deciding to be friends is not "backpeddling"...characters move on and have other relationships all the time. And yes, I was annoyed with the romantic aspect but I never got the sense that this was some great love story. It was a first for Danny and I can accept it as that.

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Old 03-18-2017, 07:18 PM   #31
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Default Re: How to fix the show in Season 2 (spoilers)

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At the time, Danny had no idea it was sabotage or foul play, but Madame Gao said he had probably suspected or thought it all that time.
That was such an obvious tack on of "oops...we actually forgot to give Danny a reason to even come to New York...like...our story had no real beginning and it JUST occurred to us. Let's just hope that people are cool with this non-explanation."

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Old 03-18-2017, 07:23 PM   #32
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Default Re: How to fix the show in Season 2 (spoilers)

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Change what, exactly? Danny and Colleen deciding to be friends is not "backpeddling"...characters move on and have other relationships all the time. And yes, I was annoyed with the romantic aspect but I never got the sense that this was some great love story. It was a first for Danny and I can accept it as that.
Change the fact that they were together. Yes, them moving on is something that happens, but it's also a change. And it's a change that I think would feel like backpeddling at this point. I understand other people disagree. But I do have to ask if the only reason you disagree is because of what's on the page in the comics? If so, we've moved long past that point, imo.

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Old 03-18-2017, 07:55 PM   #33
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Default Re: How to fix the show in Season 2 (spoilers)

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That was such an obvious tack on of "oops...we actually forgot to give Danny a reason to even come to New York...like...our story had no real beginning and it JUST occurred to us. Let's just hope that people are cool with this non-explanation."

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Old 03-18-2017, 07:55 PM   #34
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Default Re: How to fix the show in Season 2 (spoilers)

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Change the fact that they were together. Yes, them moving on is something that happens, but it's also a change. And it's a change that I think would feel like backpeddling at this point. I understand other people disagree. But I do have to ask if the only reason you disagree is because of what's on the page in the comics? If so, we've moved long past that point, imo.
I don't understand the need to downplay "what's on the page." Part of the excitement of live-action adaptations is seeing the comics "come to life" and that includes all the most iconic partnerships/relationships.

I think Danny/Colleen have good chemistry but certainly saw nothing that would suggest the relationship is so great that it can't/shouldn't end, even if it's solely to explore other relationships.

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Old 03-18-2017, 08:09 PM   #35
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Default Re: How to fix the show in Season 2 (spoilers)

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Just...get a better showrunner...
Agreed. Scott Buck absolutely RUINED Dexter once he took over as showrunner.

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Old 03-18-2017, 08:11 PM   #36
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Default Re: How to fix the show in Season 2 (spoilers)

It's an adaptation, not a recreation. The comics are an inspiration. I love the comics. I'd love to see it come to life. But episodes 1-13 of Iron Fist felt quite a bit different than issues 15-25 of Marvel Premiere, even if they both featured a revenge on Harold Meachum plot element. Given that things have already changed, you have to take your story where it's naturally going, not where some writer writing a different story took that one.

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Old 03-18-2017, 08:17 PM   #37
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Default Re: How to fix the show in Season 2 (spoilers)

In the comics, Danny left K'un L'un because he was obsessed with revenge. That didn't become clear until later here.

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Old 03-18-2017, 08:21 PM   #38
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Default Re: How to fix the show in Season 2 (spoilers)

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It's an adaptation, not a recreation. The comics are an inspiration. I love the comics. I'd love to see it come to life. But episodes 1-13 of Iron Fist felt quite a bit different than issues 15-25 of Marvel Premiere, even if they both featured a revenge on Harold Meachum plot element. Given that things have already changed, you have to take your story where it's naturally going, not where some writer writing a different story took that one.
More like they needlessly complicated a simple origin story in a way that made far less sense. The story managed to cut out everything that got added when Claremont took over like Lee Wing, Misty Knight and any interesting story arcs. Literally, the best Iron Fist stories are the Master Khan and Steel Serpent arcs by Claremont and then The Last Iron Fist Story and Seven Capital Cities of Heaven by Brubaker/Fraction. The mortal Iron Fist was also decent and I didn't read Living Weapon yet but there's better material than the origin story.

I also hope that the series gets renewed but Scott Buck gets fired and replaced by somebody competent.

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Old 03-18-2017, 08:23 PM   #39
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Default Re: How to fix the show in Season 2 (spoilers)

Of all the things that need to be backpedaled on with this show, the relationship of Danny and Colleen is maybe the last.

Colleen is so into this douche that she was willing to leave the world behind and go live in the land of abusive monks from which she would not be able to escape for 15 years. Meanwhile, he had that "I FINALLY got my first girl and...I don't think I could ever do any better than this" glow to him.

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Old 03-18-2017, 08:26 PM   #40
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Default Re: How to fix the show in Season 2 (spoilers)

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In the comics, Danny left K'un L'un because he was obsessed with revenge. That didn't become clear until later here.
it needed to be. It made him seem directionless eaier in the season. Not only directionless but they showed so little of his past he was really coming from nowhere as well. I don't know that I could have enjoyed any of the first half if I didn't know Danny's past.

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Old 03-18-2017, 08:30 PM   #41
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Default Re: How to fix the show in Season 2 (spoilers)

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More like they needlessly complicated a simple origin story in a way that made far less sense.
I think they absolutely did that. I wonder if the only reason it ended with a scale the building, revenge against Harold Meachum plot is because it was in the comic.

I do stand by my belief that the origin story holds up very well. I enjoy Claremont's stuff too and, frankly, I think Roy Thomas is a pretentious fanboy Stan Lee wannabe half of the time, but I think the original story is a lot of fun. It wasn't just a book that Claremont saved. I'd also argue the book was nearly as directionless as season one because that's how comics tended to work back then for new characters.

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Old 03-18-2017, 08:34 PM   #42
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Default Re: How to fix the show in Season 2 (spoilers)

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Of all the things that need to be backpedaled on with this show, the relationship of Danny and Colleen is maybe the last.

Colleen is so into this douche that she was willing to leave the world behind and go live in the land of abusive monks from which she would not be able to escape for 15 years. Meanwhile, he had that "I FINALLY got my first girl and...I don't think I could ever do any better than this" glow to him.
Yep. Colleen and Danny's relationship worked. I feel like more consistent characterization and a more straightforward plot would work better going forward. Lose Scott Buck, though. Most of what went wrong wasn't fault of the actors or stunt team, it was Buck and the writers' room.

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Old 03-18-2017, 08:36 PM   #43
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I think they absolutely did that. I wonder if the only reason it ended with a scale the building, revenge against Harold Meachum plot is because it was in the comic.

I do stand by my belief that the origin story holds up very well. I enjoy Claremont's stuff too and, frankly, I think Roy Thomas is a pretentious fanboy Stan Lee wannabe half of the time, but I think the original story is a lot of fun. It wasn't just a book that Claremont saved. I'd also argue the book was nearly as directionless as season one because that's how comics tended to work back then for new characters.
Yep. And Claremont changed things to tell the Master Khan story and then ended with a bang against Steel Serpent. He told two good stories until the title got canceled and Danny became Luke Cage's sidekick.

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Old 03-18-2017, 08:45 PM   #44
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Default Re: How to fix the show in Season 2 (spoilers)

I think if we knew Danny had returned not to reclaim the company but because he wanted revenge would've made his arc more interesting. So it's a journey of will Danny violate his teachings to take revenge or will he find some way to let go of the anger and hatred?

I think that's just part of why the story felt like it meandered. Because if we know Danny is back because he needs some closure for what happened to his parents, suddenly it's more clarified. His motivations are clear.

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Old 03-18-2017, 08:49 PM   #45
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I think if we knew Danny had returned not to reclaim the company but because he wanted revenge would've made his arc more interesting. So it's a journey of will Danny violate his teachings to take revenge or will he find some way to let go of the anger and hatred?

I think that's just part of why the story felt like it meandered. Because if we know Danny is back because he needs some closer for what happened to his parents, suddenly it's more clarified. His motivations are clear.
Yep. It felt like reveals were retcons in this show. It was just poor storytelling.

Again, I hope the series gets renewed but I also hope that it gets a new showrunner.

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Old 03-18-2017, 08:56 PM   #46
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Yep. It felt like reveals were retcons in this show. It was just poor storytelling.

Again, I hope the series gets renewed but I also hope that it gets a new showrunner.
I think if it returns that'll be the first decision to be made. Marvel are pretty good with learning from their mistakes, at least the movie side has been.

I think whoever they choose needs to sit down and watch Game of Death, Enter the Dragon, Fists of Fury and all the other 70's kung-fu flicks that Iron Fist swiped from originally, for inspiration. Get someone like RZA who actually has a passion for the roots of this character. There's nothing wrong per-say with a mostly Earth-bound Danny Rand, it was the execution that was the problem.

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Old 03-18-2017, 08:58 PM   #47
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Default Re: How to fix the show in Season 2 (spoilers)

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I think if we knew Danny had returned not to reclaim the company but because he wanted revenge would've made his arc more interesting. So it's a journey of will Danny violate his teachings to take revenge or will he find some way to let go of the anger and hatred?
I think it's plausible. It's certainly a story I'd have loved to have seen. I don't think it would sustain a whole season, though, but it would have had a stronger Kung-Fu action vibe.

That being said, I genuinely do appreciate the themes this show did of rich and poor, explorations of class, etc. Only Danny Rand is the character who can do this. The whole being consumed by guilt and wanting revenge thing is a trope that applies to others. It even applies somewhat to season one of Daredevil. Certainly, after Luke Cage explored issues of race and Jessica Jones issues involving sexual assault and depression, I think they wanted this show to do more. I also think exploring these issues of privilege help undercut some of the tones of the White Savior trope people criticize the show for.

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Old 03-18-2017, 09:02 PM   #48
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Default Re: How to fix the show in Season 2 (spoilers)

Except it was revealed that was the real reason he left in the later half. He couldn't let go of his parents and needed to know why their plane crashed.

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Old 03-18-2017, 09:16 PM   #49
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Default Re: How to fix the show in Season 2 (spoilers)

Yeah, I think that's pretty clear. In fairness, I think they hint at it early when Danny is asking Ward what happened when he was gone in that car ride. I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with my post or not.

Although maybe this is a discussion for the Season discussion thread rather than the season two thread. On topic, any particular writers that you thought might work taking over? I thought Scott Reynolds had some strong episodes, although it might be because of the directors.

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Old 03-18-2017, 09:31 PM   #50
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Yeah, I think that's pretty clear. In fairness, I think they hint at it early when Danny is asking Ward what happened when he was gone in that car ride. I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with my post or not.

Although maybe this is a discussion for the Season discussion thread rather than the season two thread. On topic, any particular writers that you thought might work taking over? I thought Scott Reynolds had some strong episodes, although it might be because of the directors.
Reynolds was almost as bad. Ian Stokes and Pat Charles were also horrible.

RZA's episode was good and he actually understands martial arts cinema so he's a strong choice to take over.

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