The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > X-Men > X-Men 1, 2 & 3

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-20-2008, 07:24 PM   #1
04nbod
I need to debrief you
 
04nbod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: birkenhead, uk ahh...the chavs are attacking
Posts: 10,538
Default Wolverine: A natural leader?

to continue on the debate from the deadpool thread if you want to.

__________________
WHAT WOULD DARTH VADER DO?
04nbod is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2008, 08:30 PM   #2
Infinity9999x
Side-Kick
 
Infinity9999x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 10,936
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

Wolverine is not a natural leader. There's no debating that. He's brash, does whatever the hell he wants to do without giving a damn about everyone else, and basically follows whatever he feels like without giving consideration to what's best for the team. He's surly, and in many cases simply unlikeable. He can be a jerk. Yeah, he's a good guy under all that, but still.

Wolverine is many things, a leader is not one of them.

__________________


my veiws on Raimi's Spider-man
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
here
just scoll down

X-men Short film:
http://vimeo.com/41530049
Infinity9999x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2008, 08:54 PM   #3
Savage
Earth Rocker
 
Savage's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: NYC
Posts: 22,213
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

You'd think that, even with the focus on him in the movies, that it would be obvious how much he's NOT a team player. Guy has a habit of becoming seperated from the pack. I hate how the real team leader was treated though. I mean Toad takes out Cyclops, Jean Grey, AND Storm? Come on now. A little teamwork would have obliterated that guy.

Since we're talking about team leadership, The X-men movies really should have showcased that aspect much more. Even the Fantastic Four movies had that down.

__________________
"Why are you trying to kill my kid?! You know what? I don't care. You got some beef with him or me? Whatever. You trying to start a rogues gallery of some sort? I ain't got half as much patience as Batman or The Flash. If he dies...so do you." - Green Arrow
Savage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2008, 09:33 PM   #4
Jick
Auxiliary Assistant
 
Jick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Across the burning sands
Posts: 9,055
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

I'll express my opinion here.
they were talking about Logan's leadership in X-3.
I'm not the biggest fan of Logan, but I think Wolverine still should have lead...just not the way he did.
y'know...it would be more natural if he came with something like:

"there's a war out there about to happen and I'm going to fight.
if you guys want to whine in the corner of your room like babies and wait the world to burn instead of doing something...that's your call.
"

instead of:
"we're a team...we're the X-Men and we shall stay together." (or whatever he says, I don't remember)

but that's my opinion.

thinking about this...I'd love to hear a "I'm the best at what I do" in the Wolverine movie.

__________________
Quote:
Lewis Black
"If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."

Last edited by Jick; 02-20-2008 at 09:37 PM.
Jick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2008, 11:11 PM   #5
The Major
Side-Kick
 
The Major's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 6,749
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Maniac
Fox wanted to end the franchise. Hence a 'Last Stand' with key characters being killed or cured.
Then why are they making two spin-offs and there are rumors about more X-men films? Killing the franchise seems a bit contradictory to that goal doesn't it?

Quote:
iF: What are the chances of you and 20th Century Fox agreeing to do another X-MEN film?



ARAD: There�s always a chance of an X-MEN sequel. It�s more of an issue of what is the next X-Men story, and when to do it. The X-Men universe is forever and ever, and it�s the number one comic book. There are an endless amount of stories and great sagas that can go into the future, the past, and the present. There are so many more characters that we didn�t deal with yet. It�s such a rich world. I would not preclude anything.
http://www.ifmagazine.com/new.asp?article=3021


X-men isn't like the usual franchises that suit trilogies. Most super-hero franchises aren't, either.

You don't kill the golden goose if they can make more money for you.

Quote:
Marsden bailed very early, before the X3 script was even written, so he wouldn't know anything about anything being a turkey, except that he was unwittingly going to star in one at Warner! Artistic and aesthetic though it was, SR didn't deliver the goods.
He was lucky he didn't have a big role in that turkey.

SR blew X-3 away in every catagory.

Fox should wake up and get Singer back to resurrect the franchise that Rothman killed. It's clear without him they have almost no clue what to do with the franchise. Maybe the spin-offs will do well if Fox actually puts some effort into not making the crappy movies.

Quote:
Cumming in fact said he'd never work with Singer again because they didn't get on. So I'm not sure which orifice you are pulling this information from.
Interesting.

Sorry for interfering with thread. Wasn't sure where to put this post.


Last edited by The Major; 02-20-2008 at 11:25 PM.
The Major is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 12:31 AM   #6
BMM
Side-Kick
 
BMM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,910
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

I think Wolverine sometimes walks a fine line between being a leader and being his typical self. For instance, he seems like a fairly effective leader when in Madripoor with Jubilee and Psylocke, doling out orders and such... and that's reasonable. Given his immense experience, it makes sense that he would have the knowledge and skills of a field leader... and I sometimes wonder why he would ever let someone like Cyclops boss him around. One would think Wolverine would find Cyclops rather wet behind the ears compared to himself. I think, at times, Wolverine is capable of being a leader. He just chooses not to be.

BMM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 12:51 AM   #7
jdreturns
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The GO ILL
Posts: 73
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

I'd say he's a natural field leader, that's for sure.

jdreturns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 01:24 AM   #8
THOMAS LOGAN
Banned User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: MIAMI, FL
Posts: 143
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

Infinity,

your thoughts on Wolverine are very poor.

They also go as far as to say he'll endanger the mission at hand just to be "himself".

Funny how Synger showcased that exact fan mentality and reversed in X1, when Cyclops argues with Xavier about Wolverine going with the team to Liberty Island.

Synger knew, that Cyclops just wasn't the strong and iconic character Wolverine is. That's why the original X-Men comic was dead before Claremont brought in Wolverine.

There is no X-MEN without Wolverine.

But there is Wolverine without the X-Men.

The Major,

stop saying FOX killed the franchise.

The franchise is clearly alive which is why you are on this thread.

Synger couldn't resurrect his own garbage Superman movie if they gave him another $200 million.

If X3 had bombed like Superman Returns did, then all your viewpoints would be valid.

FOX doesn't need to wake up, you do.

Finally,

Wolverine is simply what Cyclops cannot be: A warrior. He does what needs to be done if he's got the power to do it. When he has to be a leader he does it better that anyone else. Even if it means sacrificing himself. Obviously FOX, Synger and Ratner knew that and made it into 3 blockbusters. Had they gone the other way with "James Marsden in X-Men", we would not have had ONE sequel or any other comic book movies. X1 began the Marvel cinematic revolution that led to Spider Man and DC's Batman Begins. It began that revolution because it had a hero that anybody would pick over Cyclops any day...



-TL

THOMAS LOGAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 01:28 AM   #9
Gotham
Side-Kick
 
Gotham's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6,504
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

He isn't a natural born leader.

They showcased that much in the first film.

Gotham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 01:31 AM   #10
jdreturns
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The GO ILL
Posts: 73
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

Boy Thomas, you're really taking this movie seriously.

jdreturns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 01:33 AM   #11
Savage
Earth Rocker
 
Savage's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: NYC
Posts: 22,213
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

Alright, dude, I thought it was a typo at first but the man's last name is Singer. Not Synger.

Second, Wolverine was not MEANT to be a leader. He's always been the character on the side and that's part of what makes him cool in the first place. That's why it was exciting to see him get his own series and that's why it was exciting every time new info was revealed about the mysterious member of the X-men that people knew little about. He was not meant to be in the forefront.

The best comparison I can make is to Han Solo. He's cool as hell but lord knows he isn't and SHOULDN'T be the star of the original Star Wars Trilogy. He's the cool mercenary that makes the funny jokes.

Wolverine is one of my favorite Marvel characters and my favorite X-man but putting him in the forefront to me always felt like making Gambit or Rogue a leader. Especially when you have people like Storm and Cyclops that would make better team leaders. Hell, didn't Xavier leave the team to Storm in X3 in the first place? What happened to that? Every character has a role on the team. Wolverine is the bruiser, not the tactical leader.

__________________
"Why are you trying to kill my kid?! You know what? I don't care. You got some beef with him or me? Whatever. You trying to start a rogues gallery of some sort? I ain't got half as much patience as Batman or The Flash. If he dies...so do you." - Green Arrow
Savage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 01:34 AM   #12
Nightmare
"Kill Them All"
 
Nightmare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Elm Street
Posts: 18,317
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

Wolverine is NOT a leader. Not in any way shape or form. He's a loner. The first film set this up perfectly. X3 was ridiculous, and far fetched. Logan is not a leader!!!!

__________________
"After they killed me, I became something much, much worse. The stuff nightmares are made of. The children still feared me, and their fear gave me the power to invade their dreams, and that's when the fun REALLY began"
Nightmare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 01:36 AM   #13
Savage
Earth Rocker
 
Savage's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: NYC
Posts: 22,213
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

Not to mention the second film. Guy was perfectly in character in both. Pretty much saying "Screw this. I'll catch up with you guys later." every time they go out on a mission together. He did the same thing in X3 but by the end of the movie they blacked out Cyclops' name and put Wolverine in it's place and it really became a "WTF?" kind of situation.

__________________
"Why are you trying to kill my kid?! You know what? I don't care. You got some beef with him or me? Whatever. You trying to start a rogues gallery of some sort? I ain't got half as much patience as Batman or The Flash. If he dies...so do you." - Green Arrow
Savage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 01:40 AM   #14
Savage
Earth Rocker
 
Savage's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: NYC
Posts: 22,213
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

Holy ****, he got banned! ...Why did that surprise me?

__________________
"Why are you trying to kill my kid?! You know what? I don't care. You got some beef with him or me? Whatever. You trying to start a rogues gallery of some sort? I ain't got half as much patience as Batman or The Flash. If he dies...so do you." - Green Arrow
Savage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 01:41 AM   #15
the a1ant
Awesome
 
the a1ant's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 19,414
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

Wolverine is not a natural leader, imo. He can (and will) become one in desperate situations, but if he had a say-so and there were other options, he wouldn't be the one to lead.

TL was banned!?

__________________
X-MenFilms
the a1ant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 01:44 AM   #16
BMM
Side-Kick
 
BMM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,910
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the a1ant View Post
Wolverine is not a natural leader, imo. He can (and will) become one in desperate situations, but if he had a say-so and there were other options, he wouldn't be the one to lead.
That's a pretty good way of putting it.

BMM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 02:01 AM   #17
Gotham
Side-Kick
 
Gotham's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6,504
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the a1ant View Post
Wolverine is not a natural leader, imo. He can (and will) become one in desperate situations, but if he had a say-so and there were other options, he wouldn't be the one to lead.

TL was banned!?
Unfortunately.

He became to loose with his tongue. Bad decision.

Gotham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 11:23 AM   #18
Infinity9999x
Side-Kick
 
Infinity9999x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 10,936
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

Quote:
Originally Posted by THOMAS LOGAN View Post
Infinity,

your thoughts on Wolverine are very poor.

They also go as far as to say he'll endanger the mission at hand just to be "himself".
Really? Well, seeing as how Wolverine has done this many times I wouldn't say so. For example, one of the first times the X-men fought Magneto, Wolverine simply rushed head on and was thrown into a wall like nothing.

Wolverine has on multiple occasions lept into battle without listening to the rest of the team, and on many occasions it has resulted in himself being thrown out of the fight injured.
Granted, Wolverine is a better team player now, but when he started out he was a lose cannon, and he still has the tendancy to simply ignore orders and jump into battle.
Quote:
Funny how Synger showcased that exact fan mentality and reversed in X1, when Cyclops argues with Xavier about Wolverine going with the team to Liberty Island.
He wasn't reflecting fan mentality. He was relflecting an early team dynamic in the x-men comics. Have you even read any of the older comics? This was something that happened often.
Quote:
Synger knew, that Cyclops just wasn't the strong and iconic character Wolverine is. That's why the original X-Men comic was dead before Claremont brought in Wolverine.
The original X-men comic died because the writing was boring and the characters were one-dimensional. Yes, Wolverine is the most popular X-men, but Claremont made that comic popular because he made all the characters well rounded, not just Wolverine.

Quote:
There is no X-MEN without Wolverine.

But there is Wolverine without the X-Men.
Wrong, there have been many X-comics without Wolverine. Wolverine is the most popular X-man, yes, but to say that there is no X-men without Wolverine is simply ignorant and wrong.

Quote:
Wolverine is simply what Cyclops cannot be: A warrior. He does what needs to be done if he's got the power to do it. When he has to be a leader he does it better that anyone else.
I agree that Wolverine is a warrior, but to say that Cyclops isn't truly shows how little you know about the X-men. Have you ever read the Pheonix saga? Cyclops and Pheonix were the last two X-men standing against the Shi'ar guard. Not Wolverine. Cyclops was ready to die for the woman he loved. He is a warrior.

And honestly, when has Wolverine been a leader? He's the loner, not the leader. He doesn't like to be in the spotlight, he doesn't give long hearty speaches. He fights, and he does what he wants. If Wolverine is ever the leader its the lead by example kind, one that doesn't talk much and just fights as hard as he can.


Quote:
Even if it means sacrificing himself. Obviously FOX, Synger and Ratner knew that and made it into 3 blockbusters. Had they gone the other way with "James Marsden in X-Men", we would not have had ONE sequel or any other comic book movies. X1 began the Marvel cinematic revolution that led to Spider Man and DC's Batman Begins. It began that revolution because it had a hero that anybody would pick over Cyclops any day...

-TL
Really? That's funny because they had Wolverine act almost exactly like Cyclops in most of the movies. The only time he actually acted like the comic Wolverine was in the first movie a bit, and then when he went nuts on the guys in the Mansion in X2, and not at all in X3. In X3 he acted exactly as cyclops would, he never acted like Wolverine.

Wolverine's character in the comics is a tough, gritty, violent warrior. A man who struggles with his inner beast and fights to keep his animalistic side at bay. A man who's been tortured by a government he doesn't even care about, and a man who strives to be an honorable Samurai but always falls just short of the mark.

Was any of that present in the X-men movies? No, it wasn't. Sure he was a little gruff, but after that, he acted just like Cyclops. He gave reassuring speaches to the X-men and led his team into battle. Wolverine in the comics doesn't do that.

So if you think the Wolverine in the movies is the same Wolverine as in the comics, then you really haven't read many Wolverine comics, because the character in the movies was not the character in the source material.

__________________


my veiws on Raimi's Spider-man
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
here
just scoll down

X-men Short film:
http://vimeo.com/41530049
Infinity9999x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 11:27 AM   #19
X-Maniac
High Evolutionary
 
X-Maniac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Genosha
Posts: 14,572
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

I thought TL was okay, I'm surprised he was banned. He was passionate about what he said, and it does take a bit of patience to deal with some of the people on here so I'm not surprised at the occasional time when tempers are lost. I've lost my temper a few times.

__________________
Show me an X-Men comic where Mystique is the leader and walks round all day as a bored blonde
X-Maniac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 11:39 AM   #20
chamber-music
Infinity Ammo
 
chamber-music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 33,256
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

This thread needs a poll
No wolverine is not a natural leader. The guys a wandering decades old loner.

__________________
All aboard the Pork Chop Express!
chamber-music is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 11:54 AM   #21
Congo Jack
Chad Sexington
 
Congo Jack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 869
Arrow Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

THOMAS LOGAN was banned? Awh, I enjoyed his man-crush on Kevin Nash.

I think Claremont said something quotable about Wolverine's ability to lead, I'll try to dig it up...

__________________
Looks like a guy who you think is called "Hermano" is going to get his ass kicked.
Congo Jack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 12:49 PM   #22
The Infernal
Spinning Fidgeter
 
The Infernal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Scotland
Posts: 9,155
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

Yes and no. Logan's like an Alpha dog. If the X-men were a pack of Wolves of course he would be the biggest, baddest and have the X-men in tow behind him. However they don't work like that.

He might have made it as a Weapon X squad leader. He's definitely not Brass material like General or such. From what I'm aware of Wolverine isn't stupid (not the brightest either) but he is cunning. He knows how to fight with more than just his fists and claws. So he could lead, but not the X-men. Not for long anyway.

The Infernal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 01:38 PM   #23
Rac
Deadite
 
Rac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Post-Apocalyptic Wasteland
Posts: 6,371
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

I just read Wolverine #85 (1994) and there was this odd scene; Wolverine meets up with Cyclops and Jean at the Muir Island and says to Scott "You lead. It's been too long since I've been doing team work."

You know, wouldn't it be obvious that Scott should lead? Or he could have said it because he (and Cable) were the only ones knowing what's happening on the Muir Island. Scott and Jean didn't know what was going on. But he still didn't want to lead Scott though he knew what was going on.

__________________
"But I did stay very true not only to the first two movies but to the comic books." -Brett Ratner on X3
"I'm ready to go to war against them, but I can't because they don't give a s--t." -Mathieu Kassovitz on 20th Century Fox
Rac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 02:18 PM   #24
Infinity9999x
Side-Kick
 
Infinity9999x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 10,936
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Congo Jack View Post
THOMAS LOGAN was banned? Awh, I enjoyed his man-crush on Kevin Nash.

I think Claremont said something quotable about Wolverine's ability to lead, I'll try to dig it up...
That's annoying, I was looking forward to what he'd try to say back. Wonder what he got banned for?

__________________


my veiws on Raimi's Spider-man
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
here
just scoll down

X-men Short film:
http://vimeo.com/41530049
Infinity9999x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 02:40 PM   #25
MattC
Awaiting Email Confirmation
 
MattC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,301
Default Re: Wolverine: A natural leader?

What makes someone a natural leader? Is it the ability to become a leader when needed, or someone who actually seeks out a leadership role? I think both are equally as valid. You can be a natural leader, in my opinion, without necessarily expressing that. I have been told that I am a natural at several careers, but I haven't chosen to follow those paths...

MattC is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:58 AM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"



Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2017 All Rights Reserved.