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#26 | |
No More Miracles
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 24,791
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#27 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 744
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#28 | |||
Clark Kent > Superman
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South West, UK
Posts: 11,848
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Truth is, I think I really would have found a way to deal with it if it had been dealt with differently. Because I think that moment in and of itself is so incredibly powerful, Cavill's acting was brilliant and the image of him seek comfort in Lois is one I liked. They just failed in the build up that came before that specific moment, and the way it was concluded IMO. And by making that moment so very huge and shocking and having it resonate throughout the audience, it makes everything around it even more jarring and unsettling. You can't just do something like that with a character and then do nothing with it. You shouldn't just leave it up to the audience to decide how he feels about it, how the world feels about it ETC and just move on to jokes and parental nostalgia. I'm sorry, but no. It's just not the way. I don't know if you remember, but I found out he was going to kill Zod before the movie came out. And I didn't immediately start slamming the film and calling for vengeace ![]() Which I so could have, as I'd been argueing against it in the 'Should Superman kill' thread for over a year that it should never happen and it'd be a dealbreaker. But I tried to deal with it. I tried to understand what they were trying to do, and I said that if it was handled in the right way, I could imagine being okay with it. When it came down to it, I can only go by how I felt. And I felt so heart broken by how it was handled. Quote:
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I don't like that he killed in the old films. But I don't care ![]()
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Superman: "I can only tell you what I believe, Diana. humankind has to be allowed to climb to its own destiny. We can't carry them there."
Flash: "But that's what she's saying. What's the point? Why should they need us at all?" Superman: "To catch them if they fall." Last edited by hopefuldreamer; 11-07-2013 at 08:58 AM. |
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#29 | |||
Hero
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,963
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#30 | |
Twip
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 5,409
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I enjoyed Micheal Bay's Superman movie...
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The following post is my opinion so take it as you will. |
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#31 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 6,402
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This wasn't Sir Michael Bay's Superman movie! We did get a Bay movie this year though, it was called Star Trek into Darkness.
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#32 |
Banned User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 10,732
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Again, people don't like to see Superman kill.
Spider-Man and Superman are the 2 heroes that if they were to kill, people would be in shock. They have a sense of innocences to them that people don't want them to become something else. If Spider-Man were to snap Goblin's neck, how would you feel? |
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#33 |
lemonidas
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 537
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Whats more bugging me is what happened to zods body did the military took it or lex corp , is it experimented on , are they studying it and preparing weapons to fight with strong alien like superman ?
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#34 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,993
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The only hero I would be shocked about is Batman killing. No one else. |
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#35 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,993
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I would have thought Superman disposed of it.
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#36 | |
Banned User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 10,732
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Batman has killed before. It's not shocking. Spider-Man I don't think has ever killed in the comics. |
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#37 | ||
Clark Kent > Superman
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South West, UK
Posts: 11,848
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For one thing, I never said I wanted a lighter tone. I just said I wanted a lighter Superman. For another, where did I say I wanted the plot self contained? ![]() I've stated time and time again, I'm all for a more serious 'intelligent' approach. If anything, I wanted MOS to be in the style of TDK trilogy, not Avengers. And me saying that I think we needed to see more of what the public actually felt towards the alien invasion is not the same as me saying I wanted an Avengers style cheesy montage. ![]() Quote:
I talk about my issues with what I see as a contradiction between the way they framed his actions in this film, and the way they've said they want to go in future films. Your response is that the film was about actions, not consequences? That doesn't negate the problem raised. I'm saying the consequences they may bring up in the sequel will contradict what we were lead to believe about his actions in MOS.
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Superman: "I can only tell you what I believe, Diana. humankind has to be allowed to climb to its own destiny. We can't carry them there."
Flash: "But that's what she's saying. What's the point? Why should they need us at all?" Superman: "To catch them if they fall." Last edited by hopefuldreamer; 11-07-2013 at 01:34 PM. |
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#38 | |
Hero
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,963
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Ummm, well there's
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#39 |
Clark Kent > Superman
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South West, UK
Posts: 11,848
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And let's not forget that a sequel was never a sure thing.
Before the film came out, Snyder kept talking about MOS being it's own film. People are giving it way too easy of a pass with 'that'll happen in the sequel' when we could have gotten no sequel at all. |
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#40 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,357
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PLEASE SEE BOTH OF THESE.THESE ARE WOMEN REVIEWERS WHO KNOWS THIER
COMIC/SUPERHERO STUFF. Movie Review: Man of Steel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0_wzGAus_A DOES SUPERMAN KILLS? Defending Man of Steel - AnnaMay http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tJKRj_dwPc |
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#41 | |
Hero
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,963
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#42 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 744
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Returns was gonna have a sequel. Green Lantern was gonna have a sequel. Everybody and their mother knew they were going to have a sequel. We all knew a 3 Batman film would happen. I don't buy what they were saying that they werent sure of sequel. |
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#43 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 744
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What consequences do you think will happen in a sequel? What do you think they were trying to do with Kal-El and his actions? I know you explain before that the Jenny and Ma Kent were pleased with him. You say the military accept him for what did (which they should because they know war has severe consequences and high rate of casualties but there is a distrust.) But those are not contradictions. Those are his proponents because they saw first that he saved the day. So if you can answer those 2 questions? I may have an understanding. |
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#44 | ||
Clark Kent > Superman
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South West, UK
Posts: 11,848
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With MOS, I actually think the jarring tone of the ending was a result of them trying to wrap it up nicely if their wasn't a sequel, and make it seem like a true ending just in case. Quote:
We as an audience are made to believe there is absolutely no other way but to kill Zod. That Superman's actions were born of an impossible situation. That what he did was heroic and absolutely right thing to do. And the only responses actually seen in the movie about his actions, where positive ones. So if they DO go down the route of making Superman regret killing Zod, or making him decide on a no kill rule based on the events of the film, then you are creating this contraction. Because it can either be one or the other. Either Superman killing Zod was the right thing to do, therefore there can never be a 'no kill rule' because put in the same situation again he'd do the exact same thing. Or Superman killing Zod was the wrong thing to do, and somehow he should have found another way, which is why he adopts a no kill rule. You can't have both. They contradict each other.
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Superman: "I can only tell you what I believe, Diana. humankind has to be allowed to climb to its own destiny. We can't carry them there."
Flash: "But that's what she's saying. What's the point? Why should they need us at all?" Superman: "To catch them if they fall." |
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#45 |
Banned User
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 9,713
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Unfortunately, that's true. Jonathan should have died in the present as a result of Clark dealing with Zod, with Jonathan or Zod (maybe even both) being the foundation of the "no-kill" rule.
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#46 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 744
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Thank you for taking the time to share your point of view. But that thought process only allows for black and white situations when clearly it was grey or gray (whatever). One of the reasons Mark Waid didnt like MOS is because there was no pure absolute triumph. There agony in his victory. And I can accept not liking that because of preference. And that's cool. The Zod killing issue is a personal and inner battle that Superman will deal with. He needs to feel uncomfortable with that situation. Sort of a Post-traumatic stress disorder. Lois, Ma Kent, and maybe General Swannick will comfort him because Kal did do the right thing. But Kal is clearly upset by it. It will bother. It should. It did. If Batman, Spiderman, or Superman or you were put in that situations again. He may have to do it. But maybe he tries something different and it backfires. You say they wrote themselves into a corner, I say they challenge themselves. Look at what Batman did in begins. He doesnt believe in killing neither but he can not to save someone and allow them to fall to their death. That's very grey. And the "no killing rule" is something somebody has to struggle with. It should not be black and white. Kal did not fly off into victory. He was left on his knees being comforted. The other battle the Kal will deal with is the trust that he will need to build with the people of Metropolis and the world. Kal had no official intro to the world. There are so many obstacles that he has to go through to be The Superman. Thats what I mean by a mountain to climb. |
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#47 | |
Clark Kent > Superman
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South West, UK
Posts: 11,848
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Yeah... I'm not sure you understanding my point.
None of what you said addresses the contradiction I'm pointing out... Quote:
If Snyder honestly felt the no kill rule needed a foundation, a reason behind it that drives him to never kill... He should have made that first kill something regretable. How can Superman regret killing Zod to save that family? And why wouldn't he do it again? Last edited by hopefuldreamer; 11-07-2013 at 03:48 PM. |
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#48 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 744
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The "no kill rule" thing. Cannot be absolute. It cant. If your job is to save and fight. How can you not kill as a last resort.
What if Superman was fighting for his life against and big super villain (non android, but humanoid). And if he were to die the earth would be left unprotected. Should Superman sacrifice his life and the lives of the innocent to protect his rule. Its naive. |
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#49 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 744
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Killing Zod eradicates any case for his have a no kill rule. Thats what you said. I say. He can have that rule. Or try to live by it as a a result. But its unreasonable to hold on to that rule no matter what. And his actions were not celebrated. Especially by Kal himself. |
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#50 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 6,402
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It just seems like the fanboys hate the scene of Superman killing Zod, and are ignoring every.single.piece.of.reason. of why that happened, just so that their point can go through.
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