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Old 07-19-2012, 02:36 PM   #201
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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The Panther's race should not be an issue in this movie, they should just approach this like they have any other property, but this just happens to be about an African Ruler rather than a Norse God, etc.

If they put the race thing in the forefront then they have already failed IMO. This was my problem with the '70's Jungle Action Panther series, and why I found the solo series that followed a refreshing change. His being African was not a big deal when he was introduced in the FF and it should not be now.
Yeah, go back and read the previous BP thread (of which this is the continuation). Read the last 20 pages or so. I was in a loooong debate about that. You'll see that there are those who feel race (and racism) absolutely must be an issue in a BP film.

Your suggestion is the way they should be allowed to do it, but as has been discussed, there are people watching this production very closely with an eye for finding even the slightest tidbit they can construe as racist. Who needs that? Screw it and bring on GOTG, a less favorite comic for me personally to BP but with much less potential for for being disected for racist tendencies.

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Old 07-19-2012, 02:44 PM   #202
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

Well, Marvel just has to man up and take it. If people want to call it racist, deal with it. Don't be a pussy. Make Black Panther.

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Old 07-19-2012, 03:02 PM   #203
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Actually, I perceive Disney/Marvel as putting a high value on diversity and "political correctness" (see: lack of racism/segregation during WWII in CA:TFA; also see: The Disney Channel). There have already been plenty of complaints about the whiteness (greenness notwithstanding) and maleness of The Avengers cast. This is probably why we're hearing rumors of Falcon for CA:TWS and his inclusion in the upcoming Avengers Assemble cartoon. The call for celebration also went up when the mystery 2014 movie was rumored to be Black Panther. I would say that it should be very much in Disney's/Marvel's best interest to go through the hassle/brain work/sweat/blood/tears of making a Black Panther movie work, and soon.
I think 'bending over backwards' and 'putting a high value on' mean pretty much the same thing. Again, Tyler Perry makes movies and tv shows with no white characters but I don't hear anyone complaining about it. But if you don't have black representation in ANY movie (maybe the LOTR trilogy is the exception) you hear complaints. And 'maleness'? That would be like men complaining about the 'famaleness' of Steel Magnolias or the Travelling Pants movie. So silly. Again, white males can be excluded from anything and not a peep.

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Well, as one Asian American who has thought about these issues a lot and has felt the glaring disparity/imbalance in ethnic representation in comics and American media in general his whole life, I would say that there are plenty of cultural, historical, and social reasons why not as many Asians have been vocal and not as many Asians who have complained have been ignored. I could get into it, and there are much more articulate people to whom I could point who do indeed complain about these things, but if you want an example of Asians taking a stand against blatant racism in media, I would point you to the outcry that emerged when white actors were cast for the main roles in M. Night Shyamalan's The Last Airbender movie, if you recall it. (Though in the end, I'm kind of thankful that talented Asian actors weren't tied to that sinking ship.)
I hope you're not suggesting that because of slavery, black people are more vocal about how black comic heroes are protrayed or about how they feel they're not proportionally represented? Maybe you should explain further cuz I just don;t nderstand. And how have Asians been less ignored in the context of improving Asian representation in comics?

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Also, Asian Americans were very much involved and vocal in the Civil Rights movement in the '60s and '70s, especially in Detroit and Chicago. You just never hear about them.
Why is that? I think that says a lot in itself.

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I think what DrCosmic meant is that while white people do complain about Spider-Man, they don't complain about white people being misrepresented in Spider-Man movies.
You know I read a post in this thread earlier about how there's always a 'but' with black heroes. Newsflash: There are only a few elite heroes. There's only one who is strongest of all. There's only one who is fastest. There's only one who is smartest. ALL the others (black, white, whatever) have a 'but'. Tell me one thing Spidey doesn't have a 'but' about. He's fast BUT Flash is faster. He's strong BUT Hulk is stronger. I could go on but you get the picture. BP is (as far as I know) the ONLY royal leader of an entire country of ANY hero. BUt some people look at the BUTs and see racism. So these are the same people who will always find 'misrepresentation' in a black comic book hero or black superhero movie. And in another series of posts concerning Hudlin;s run, there was debate over Hudlin making BP too 'urban'. Some supported it. I feel those same people would cry sterotyping if the series had been written exactly the same way but by a white man. Food for thought.

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Where does it say that Marvel is determined to make a BP film? D'Esposito's quote, which was only a response to the interviewer asking directly about BP, sounds pretty pessimistic about our chances of seeing a BP film. While I did say above that Disney/Marvel's high value on diversity should motivate them to make a BP movie, have we gotten any indication that that is indeed the case?
I was being sarcastic. I think if you'll look at my other posts, I am clear that I believe Marvel is anything BUT determined to make a BP film. Some on here are just under the illusion that it is otherwise.


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Old 07-19-2012, 03:06 PM   #204
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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I do not follow DBZ or Naruto (at least since my 18 yr old son was a kid). I don't know who Mr. Popo or Killer Bee are. Are they black characters that are painted in a poor light in a racial way? Maybe they get a pass because those are Japanese productions. Only saw Training Day of all the 'black guty dies at the end' movies so don;t know much about that either. ANd I don't watch MAd Men.
Despite your individual ignorance of those properties, the point is still valid. You asked for examples. DrCosmic gave you some.

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And don't you think that's a shame that writer's are basically justified in feeling that way?
If it is a shame, then they are NOT justified in feeling that way.
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Eddie Murphy is a unique talent.
What's your point?

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Well, Marvel just has to man up and take it. If people want to call it racist, deal with it. Don't be a pussy. Make Black Panther.
Let's hope they do. They've taken some gambles already. They're making another with GOTG. Hopefully they keep it up.

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Old 07-19-2012, 03:09 PM   #205
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Well, Marvel just has to man up and take it. If people want to call it racist, deal with it. Don't be a pussy. Make Black Panther.
Send that to them in a letter

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Old 07-19-2012, 03:13 PM   #206
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Well, Marvel just has to man up and take it. If people want to call it racist, deal with it. Don't be a pussy. Make Black Panther.
Kinda easy to say when you're not the one at risk of being called a racist.

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Old 07-19-2012, 03:22 PM   #207
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Kinda easy to say when you're not the one at risk of being called a racist.
That's life. Life ain't fair. I gotta deal with being black every day, which is not a cake walk as some like to assume it is. You can deal with being called a racist by idiots.

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Old 07-19-2012, 03:23 PM   #208
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Despite your individual ignorance of those properties, the point is still valid. You asked for examples. DrCosmic gave you some.
If I said they were not vali, please show me where. Cosmic wasn't very clear with it. He just threw out some names. I even asked if those 2 characters ion the Japanese cartoons were perceived in a poor light racially. Haven't heard back. Have YOU heard any complaints about racism from the examples he gave?

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If it is a shame, then they are NOT justified in feeling that way.
They are justified in feeling that if they make the slightest mistep they will be judged racist - that is a legitimate concern. You don't think that is a shame that thay should have to feel that way? To feel that if they, in making every effort to do BP justice somehow get labeled racist and possible ruining their writing career because of some oversensitive race baiter? If you don't you have no shame.

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What's your point?
There aren't many black actors who could make a movie about an African prince without deference to race. Sorry I thought what I said spoke for itself in regards to what I was replying to.

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Old 07-19-2012, 04:09 PM   #209
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

Hey guys,

I assume that a company like Disney primarily makes decisions based on the financial implications. If they ARE considering the racism issue in making a Black Panther movie, it's only to the extent that such a thing would affect their bottom line. I'm not saying that political correctness won't come into play but I believe money/marketability/profitability is always the first metric.

A Black Panther movie will be made when the "numbers" make since to the execs (i.e. introduce Panther in an established franchise with a marketable actor).

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Old 07-19-2012, 04:20 PM   #210
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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That's life. Life ain't fair. I gotta deal with being black every day, which is not a cake walk as some like to assume it is. You can deal with being called a racist by idiots.
Fact is the majority of those who call others racists ARE idiots and usually racists themselves. Doesn't change the fact that the public and the media love to play it up when a minority claims racism against a big company like Disney. It might be easy for you to be so nonchalant about it. You're not the one risking millions of dollars and a reputation that could be unfairly tarnished. 'life ain't fair' isn't a smart reason to make bad business decisions.

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Old 07-19-2012, 04:50 PM   #211
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Just some ideas I have for BP

For director I don't know who I'd chose. The top 2 choices going through my head are Daniel Espinosa (he directed Safe House). He really can make some nice gritty action, although I doubt Marvel will really go for that. My other choice is Antoine Fuqua (he directed Training Day) he's hit or miss but I like some of his work

As for cast...
Aldis Hodge= T'Challa/Black Panter


Denzel Washington=T'Chaka 1) I dont think that, currently, Marvel could get Denzel 2) But if they do I probably wouldnt kill him off in the first act. Probably not until the end of the 2nd. Maybe have him kidnapped by Klaw


Vincent Cassel= Klaw. He'll need a huge costume redesign. Maybe have him working for AIM (that'd actually be really cool since Iron Man 3 has AIM) or Hydra


Jessica Lucas=Monica Lynne. As I said earlier, I'd reimagine her as something other than just a singer. Probably some kind of government agent, like CIA or something (not SHIELD though)


John Gallanger Jr=Everett K Ross. I'd liken him to Ryan Reynolds' character is Safe House...but not as trained in fighting


Danny Glover= N'Gassi


Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje= Zuri


Some different story ideas:
-Make it like a Bond, Mission Impossible spy movie. Different locations around the world, cool gadgets, tuxedos, all that good stuff
-Cameo from Captain America
-I'd have Monica and Everett going to Wakanda for another attempt from the US of diplomacy with Wakanda. They end up being in the wrong place at the wrong time and they end up getting swept up in the plot to stop Klaw
-I'd say have Klaw (arms dealer, terrorist) building some sort of device that needs different things from around the world, including vibranium (why he returns to Wakanda). He gets the vibranium after attacking Wakanda in the first act, which leads to T'Challa following him around the world
-T'Challa shouldnt have a lot of "fish out of water" stuff like in Thor.
-There has to be a free running chase. There has to be.
-For a team I'd say have: T'Challa, Zuri, Everett, and Monica chasing Klaw
-For locations, I think: Wakanda, Milan (Italy), Barcelona (Spain), NYC (I was debating between NYC or DC but I settled on DC because of the UN building)
-If by some miracle, BP ends up being a phase II film I would end it by setting up that T'challa will periodically spending time from Wakanda. Which sets him up for The Avengers 2


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Old 07-19-2012, 05:02 PM   #212
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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I do not follow DBZ or Naruto (at least since my 18 yr old son was a kid). I don't know who Mr. Popo or Killer Bee are. Are they black characters that are painted in a poor light in a racial way? Maybe they get a pass because those are Japanese productions. Only saw Training Day of all the 'black guty dies at the end' movies so don;t know much about that either. ANd I don't watch MAd Men.
Just for fun, TVTropes (a wiki)'s article: The Black Guy Dies First (ignore the horror film examples, since almost everyone dies in those)

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And don't you think that's a shame that writer's are basically justified in feeling that way?
It's an incredible shame, but certainly not one that starts with bitter/vocal/demanding fans, but an effect of a systemic malignity on non-whites, especially the descendants of slaves. The fact that this system eventually causes mild discomfort to some movie executives is inevitable.

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Old 07-19-2012, 05:28 PM   #213
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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That's life. Life ain't fair. I gotta deal with being black every day, which is not a cake walk as some like to assume it is. You can deal with being called a racist by idiots.
It's a cake walk for me... Being black has never had any kind of negative impact on me in my entire life, literally, and I live in Georgia. IMO some black people take racism way too seriously. And I'm not talking about the people who get angry at clear-as-day, no-way-around-it racism, I'm talking about the people who are mad at Marvel for not announcing a Black Panther movie when nobody even knows what goes on in those offices. For all we know Black Panther is already in the works. For all we know they don't have a good script yet and would greenlight the movie as soon as they have one. For all we know a Black Panther movie could have been a done deal for 2014 but something came up at the last minute. We don't know, and have no right to feel entitled.

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Old 07-19-2012, 05:33 PM   #214
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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I think 'bending over backwards' and 'putting a high value on' mean pretty much the same thing. Again, Tyler Perry makes movies and tv shows with no white characters but I don't hear anyone complaining about it. But if you don't have black representation in ANY movie (maybe the LOTR trilogy is the exception) you hear complaints. And 'maleness'? That would be like men complaining about the 'famaleness' of Steel Magnolias or the Travelling Pants movie. So silly. Again, white males can be excluded from anything and not a peep.
The general reason people complain about that is how an idea like "superheroes are a white American male thing" can come about if you don't have diversity in the genre.

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I hope you're not suggesting that because of slavery, black people are more vocal about how black comic heroes are protrayed or about how they feel they're not proportionally represented? Maybe you should explain further cuz I just don;t nderstand. And how have Asians been less ignored in the context of improving Asian representation in comics?

Why is that? I think that says a lot in itself.
I'm not suggesting that at all. I guess I'll have to get into it. Let me try to explain, but please know that my words won't be enough, and do not take what I say as sweeping generalization. First of all, I mistyped--I meant to say that the Asian voice for the most part has been ignored more than the black voice (and often, the Asian voice for the most part has been quieter than the black voice). And there are historical and cultural reasons why that is currently the case.

Historically, American racism has been conceptualized as a black-white issue only, despite a long history of racism and discrimination against all people of color in America. Several other minorities (and some white people, to be fair) did stand and walk alongside black women and men during the Civil Rights Movement, but most people haven't heard that. The media did little to document it at the time, and many schools from then to the present haven't taught a brand of American history that depicts racism as anything black-white issue in this country, if at all. The result is that Asian Americans (as well as all other Americans) have been brought up, taught, and exposed to the idea of racism as something between blacks and whites only. Even though they are regularly discriminated against to this day, many Asian Americans are tempered with the false idea that Asians aren't victims of discrimination in America. And those who do speak up are generally ignored because of that same false idea. It is this myth that has shaped several factors culturally that contribute to the Asian voice being quieter/ignored more than the black voice.

I'll name a few only. For one, it has (wrongly) become more socially acceptable to perform hate crimes against Asians than blacks. I'll cite the Vincent Chin case in 1982, where two white men brutally beat a Chinese American to death in a racially-motivated attack (they assumed he was Japanese). They walked away from that crime with a $3,000 fine; the judge ruled that the two men were “not a threat to society” by virtue of their being gainfully employed citizens at the time of the murder.

Secondly, it has become more socially acceptable to make racist comments/jokes about Asians than blacks. In mainstream media to this day, Asians have been stereotyped, patronized, and called names without as recently as during the Jeremy Lin craze this year: "two-inch penis,” “fortune cookie,” “yellow mamba,” “kung fu grip,” “chink in the armor” and “FOB” and “from Taiwan” just to name a few. I would bet you some people reading these examples didn't even know that they were offensive.

A third cultural idea that has come from the false thought that racism only deals with the black minority is the "model minority myth." Asians have been stereotyped to be smart, hardworking, generally well-off, and friendlier with white people than black people, and therefore are considered the "model minority." For one thing, this has created unfounded tension between blacks and Asians in certain communities. But what is worse is that people are starting to believe it. The result of this is twofold: 1) many Asians don't think they should complain, and 2) any Asian complaints against discrimination are cast aside. The thought by both Asians and non-Asians has become this: "If Asians have it better than blacks and even some whites, why should they complain?"

This all goes to say (and there are many more factors that I haven't mentioned) that the reason you may not have heard Asians complain about Asian misrepresentation/nonrepresentation in comics is that Asians are dealing an uphill battle that is masked under plenty of society-wide myths that don't even allow them into the conversation.

But if you're looking for an Asian guy to join the conversation and complain about Asian misrepresentation in comics/TV/movies, I think I just did.

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You know I read a post in this thread earlier about how there's always a 'but' with black heroes. Newsflash: There are only a few elite heroes. There's only one who is strongest of all. There's only one who is fastest. There's only one who is smartest. ALL the others (black, white, whatever) have a 'but'. Tell me one thing Spidey doesn't have a 'but' about. He's fast BUT Flash is faster. He's strong BUT Hulk is stronger. I could go on but you get the picture. BP is (as far as I know) the ONLY royal leader of an entire country of ANY hero. BUt some people look at the BUTs and see racism. So these are the same people who will always find 'misrepresentation' in a black comic book hero or black superhero movie. And in another series of posts concerning Hudlin;s run, there was debate over Hudlin making BP too 'urban'. Some supported it. I feel those same people would cry sterotyping if the series had been written exactly the same way but by a white man. Food for thought.
Hmm... perhaps I walked into this particular argument without the proper context in mind.

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I was being sarcastic. I think if you'll look at my other posts, I am clear that I believe Marvel is anything BUT determined to make a BP film. Some on here are just under the illusion that it is otherwise.
I see. Yeah, no sarcasm font.

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Old 07-19-2012, 07:37 PM   #215
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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The general reason people complain about that is how an idea like "superheroes are a white American male thing" can come about if you don't have diversity in the genre.
But aren't there things that are 'white male things' and some things that are 'white female things' and other things that are 'black things'? I mean, isn't hip-hop or rap music mainly considered black male or female things'? I don't see anyone getting upset about that. I don't hear anyone crying for more diversity in the hiphop music industry. And why should they? Yet again, you can leave white males out of anything but don't try to make anything that is exclusive to them or watch out. Why is that? Note: not that I think the people behind Avengers was deliberately trying to exclude anyone. BUt they still get accused of it.

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Originally Posted by spideymouse
I'm not suggesting that at all. I guess I'll have to get into it. Let me try to explain, but please know that my words won't be enough, and do not take what I say as sweeping generalization. First of all, I mistyped--I meant to say that the Asian voice for the most part has been ignored more than the black voice (and often, the Asian voice for the most part has been quieter than the black voice). And there are historical and cultural reasons why that is currently the case.

Historically, American racism has been conceptualized as a black-white issue only, despite a long history of racism and discrimination against all people of color in America. Several other minorities (and some white people, to be fair) did stand and walk alongside black women and men during the Civil Rights Movement, but most people haven't heard that. The media did little to document it at the time, and many schools from then to the present haven't taught a brand of American history that depicts racism as anything black-white issue in this country, if at all. The result is that Asian Americans (as well as all other Americans) have been brought up, taught, and exposed to the idea of racism as something between blacks and whites only. Even though they are regularly discriminated against to this day, many Asian Americans are tempered with the false idea that Asians aren't victims of discrimination in America. And those who do speak up are generally ignored because of that same false idea. It is this myth that has shaped several factors culturally that contribute to the Asian voice being quieter/ignored more than the black voice.

I'll name a few only. For one, it has (wrongly) become more socially acceptable to perform hate crimes against Asians than blacks. I'll cite the Vincent Chin case in 1982, where two white men brutally beat a Chinese American to death in a racially-motivated attack (they assumed he was Japanese). They walked away from that crime with a $3,000 fine; the judge ruled that the two men were “not a threat to society” by virtue of their being gainfully employed citizens at the time of the murder.

Secondly, it has become more socially acceptable to make racist comments/jokes about Asians than blacks. In mainstream media to this day, Asians have been stereotyped, patronized, and called names without as recently as during the Jeremy Lin craze this year: "two-inch penis,” “fortune cookie,” “yellow mamba,” “kung fu grip,” “chink in the armor” and “FOB” and “from Taiwan” just to name a few. I would bet you some people reading these examples didn't even know that they were offensive.

A third cultural idea that has come from the false thought that racism only deals with the black minority is the "model minority myth." Asians have been stereotyped to be smart, hardworking, generally well-off, and friendlier with white people than black people, and therefore are considered the "model minority." For one thing, this has created unfounded tension between blacks and Asians in certain communities. But what is worse is that people are starting to believe it. The result of this is twofold: 1) many Asians don't think they should complain, and 2) any Asian complaints against discrimination are cast aside. The thought by both Asians and non-Asians has become this: "If Asians have it better than blacks and even some whites, why should they complain?"

This all goes to say (and there are many more factors that I haven't mentioned) that the reason you may not have heard Asians complain about Asian misrepresentation/nonrepresentation in comics is that Asians are dealing an uphill battle that is masked under plenty of society-wide myths that don't even allow them into the conversation.

But if you're looking for an Asian guy to join the conversation and complain about Asian misrepresentation in comics/TV/movies, I think I just did.
You're right. I didn't know that half those things were offensive. Sorry you had to go to all the trouble to illustrate your point but you just reinforced what I've been saying. Black people are represented more than any other minority race in superhero comics which are published mainly by white writers/artists yet I hear more complaints from black people than from any other minority group whose own race/culture has even less representation in the genre.

It's either there aren't enough black heroes or they aren't represented right.

For the record, I wish every race/ethnicity had multiple heroes for the races they represent to look up to. I have always been of the mind that every hero is someone's favorite and want to see even second or third teer heroes presented with as much respect as the top tier ones. But it is what it is. My point is, in the end, I think the talk of people looking for deliberate sabatoging of a BP film based on racist reasons could ultimately hurt the possibility of one ever getting made.

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Hmm... perhaps I walked into this particular argument without the proper context in mind.
Yeah go back and read thru the 9 or 10 pages of this thread. It's illuminating.

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Old 07-19-2012, 11:19 PM   #216
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

Here's a REAL conversation I had with a buddy today:

Me: Hey, I hear they're finally gonna make that Black Panther superhero movie!

Anthony: So what's that about?

Me: An African king from an advanced society who also a superhero. Cool huh?

Anthony: Yeah, I'd like to see that. So what's gonna happen in it?

Me: Not sure but I think he's going to be fighting the Man-Ape.

Anthony: Man-Ape!? The hell is that?

Me: Some angry militant African in a monkey suit who worships the great white gorilla... Hey, where you goin?

Anthony: I'm gonna call the NAACP. We gotta boycott this $#it!!

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Old 07-20-2012, 12:43 AM   #217
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Originally Posted by Spider - Man View Post
There is a world of difference between the type of complaints normally heard over a Spider-Man, FF, X-men, etc. movie and complaints of imperfections placed in movies, deliberately or accidentally, that will be decried racist in nature or motivation. If you can't see that, there's not really much reason to continue that line of discussion. Let's just say that complaints such as Spidey's webshooters being organic aren't going to potentially hurt a big company's long term success like charges of racism would. IMO Disney probably looks at its stable of Marvel characters and says, 'As many people as there are who would be hypervigilant about racism in a BP film (potential behavior confirmed by comments on these boards) it would be less of a hassle to just forego a BP film and focus on someone else. I mean it isn't like we have a shortage or anything.'

I have nothing against black characters in comics. The more the merrier as far as I'm concerned. I love some Luke Cage and BP. Some questions though: Should white writers be obliged to write black characters? You provide the statement that you say is a copout and then provide reasons why it isn't. It's almost like you're saying 'yeah, we complain when you write a black character in a way that we perceive as wrong but keep on doing it anyway or I'll complain about that.' When someone is damned if they do and damned if they don't, they usually 'don't'. Which leads to the second question: why would a black person want someone to keep writing a black character if thay can do nothing but complain about how the writer writes that character?

What about other minority characters (American Indian, Chinese, Japanese, East Indian, Middle Eastern)? Are they as well- or proportionally-represented as black characters? Are there complaints about why there is a shortage of these characters or how they are written? I havent heard any charges of racism or in fact heard any complaints at all though all of these races are surely not as promimently represented as black characters. Why is that?

And how long have you been on these boards? You obviously don't pay attention if you say white people don't complain about Spider-Man.

So again, Disney's choice: cop out and focus on characters not nearly as risky to their bottom line or take the chance of getting labeled racist. Hmm, yup, that is a tough choice.
You just had to bring up the organic vs. mechanic webshooters didn't you? I'm still scarred from reading that horrible thread.

As for your response I don't feel that white characters should be obliged to write black characters at all, nor do I feel black writers shouldn't either. One particular black writer I know is a damn good artist, yet I don't ever see any black people in her comics that she publsihes. It's called Millenia War by the way. It looks cool, but I don't have any beef with her at all for it because I don't feel that there is some obligation for black characters. But why not have more diversity? Why not put characters in books who are more than just white males and sometimes females? People from other demographics want to see that too. Spider-man is my second favorite hero, and I have more white characters on my personal favorites list than black ones, but it's damn cool being a black guy to see black heroes doing stuff. It won't make me like a hero more because they're black, but it definitely changes things up to see someone that is different besides the norm.

What upsets me about this Black Panther thing is that they say it's so hard to create Wakanda, yet everything they've done suggests that it wouldn't be difficult for them to do so. Plus it really annoys me that they're fine with putting black sidekicks on the screen in War Machine and Falcon, but when it comes to a man who leads his own country they slow their role. Cinema has always been hesitant to have black leads, and I don't like the fact that Marvel did that by using a cheap copout. What's even more funny is that they're using elements from Black Panther in Cap's shield being vibranium and Falcon being in the movie. Who is going to design his harness? Black Panther originally did it in the comics, so why is it so easy to use the creation instead of the creator themselves? I'm fine with them hold off a BP movie because they want to do Guardians first to tie in to Avengers 2 with Thanos, but that's straight ******** about how difficult it is to make Wakanda.

As for people complaining about Spider-man, it's a big difference between how black people complain about tokens vs. people complaining about what they want to see from a movie. With Spider-man you can complain to your heart's desire, but he's not placed up there as the sole representative for a race the way some tokens are. With black people we've complained about comic characters because we are too diverse for a token to represent us, and on top of that the effort is so obviously not there at times.

As for other minorities I've been asking for that too. I even made a thread about it because I feel that us black people are more vocal about it. I think it stems from the fact that we are the largest minority in the U.S.(or at least we used to be) and the fact that other groups just aren't vocal about it. With Southeast Asians there is such a big market of business out there in Southeast Asia that there are plenty of opportunities for portrayals featuring them. For them there is an alternative, so they might not complain as much because there are many media representing them. With Native Americans they are so forgotten it's so damn sad, and Arab people have been complaining for years about how poorly they're portrayed in Western cinema. But I say bring it on. I don't want just black people on screen. I want to see some more people from different races and ethnic backgrounds. Diversity is good to me because it gives more story opportunities. That's why I'm hoping they have the balls to do Guardians of the Galaxy in space with a talking raccoon and sentient tree without apologizing for it. It's nice that they're doing something off the beaten path, but the reasoning given for Black Panther's lack of a film is the same old song and dance black people have heard for years, and it irks us to hear it from a so called diverse company proclaiming themselves to be the House of Ideas.

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Old 07-20-2012, 01:57 AM   #218
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

I like the Bond analogy mentioned above - global locations would be a must, and while I do not mind one of those locations being in the US - I still maintain that none of the movie HAS to take place in the US. There have been plenty of Bond movies where he never sets foot in the US - I know, Bond is British, but the Black Panther is African.

Likewise, someone mentioned he should NOT be a fish out of water. Of course not, why would he be? Again, that's where the COMING TO AMERICA analogy comes in - life in Eddie Murphy's home country WAS normal for him and shown that way, it was when he got to New York that things seemed odd.

Again, no need for Marvel to treat this as something "special" just approach it like they did the other properties and it will work out fine.


Lastly, the classic Klaw costume will work just fine on screen - just chose the proper colors, textures, etc. like with any other super suit that has been done well.

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Old 07-20-2012, 05:15 AM   #219
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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You just had to bring up the organic vs. mechanic webshooters didn't you? I'm still scarred from reading that horrible thread.
Lol! I know! My bad!

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Originally Posted by E-Man
As for your response I don't feel that white characters should be obliged to write black characters at all, nor do I feel black writers shouldn't either. One particular black writer I know is a damn good artist, yet I don't ever see any black people in her comics that she publsihes. It's called Millenia War by the way. It looks cool, but I don't have any beef with her at all for it because I don't feel that there is some obligation for black characters. But why not have more diversity? Why not put characters in books who are more than just white males and sometimes females? People from other demographics want to see that too.
AS I have been stating, in answer to your question about why not more diversity, again there is so much complaining about the minority characters there already are and the way they are presented. I love reading the old Luke Cage comics (I WISH so much that that old costume would translate to the big screen but sadly there is NO way!) but I hear people complain that he is a stereotype or whatever. I mean come on, he's one of the coolest characters in comics! How is he a steroetype? Is he any more of a steroetype than John Shaft? JJ from Good Times? Is there a black hero that has not been complained about in the context of how they were presented racially? Im sure it's really difficult for writers because when they write a story, half the black readers say 'he's too black' and the other half say 'he's not black enough'. I mean how can they win?

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Originally Posted by E-Man
Spider-man is my second favorite hero, and I have more white characters on my personal favorites list than black ones, but it's damn cool being a black guy to see black heroes doing stuff. It won't make me like a hero more because they're black, but it definitely changes things up to see someone that is different besides the norm.
Spidey's been my favorite since I was a kid. I don't think it has anything to do with him being white but I gues there's no way to be sure. BUt as I said, I like Cage a lot, and BP. And I would completely welcome any new cool and racially and culturally diverse characters they'd care to toss at us.

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Originally Posted by E-Man
What upsets me about this Black Panther thing is that they say it's so hard to create Wakanda, yet everything they've done suggests that it wouldn't be difficult for them to do so. Plus it really annoys me that they're fine with putting black sidekicks on the screen in War Machine and Falcon, but when it comes to a man who leads his own country they slow their role. Cinema has always been hesitant to have black leads, and I don't like the fact that Marvel did that by using a cheap copout. What's even more funny is that they're using elements from Black Panther in Cap's shield being vibranium and Falcon being in the movie. Who is going to design his harness? Black Panther originally did it in the comics, so why is it so easy to use the creation instead of the creator themselves? I'm fine with them hold off a BP movie because they want to do Guardians first to tie in to Avengers 2 with Thanos, but that's straight ******** about how difficult it is to make Wakanda.

As for people complaining about Spider-man, it's a big difference between how black people complain about tokens vs. people complaining about what they want to see from a movie. With Spider-man you can complain to your heart's desire, but he's not placed up there as the sole representative for a race the way some tokens are. With black people we've complained about comic characters because we are too diverse for a token to represent us, and on top of that the effort is so obviously not there at times.
I dont mind complaining about a token and I'm sorry if I have seemed insensitive to that. Again I wish there were more characters representing other races in comics. Where I differentiate (especially in regards to a BP film) is when people start to mention how they hope there is nothing that can be found in the movie that could be construed as racist (against black people). A company like Disney will do ANYTHING to avoid the stigma of racism, up to and including not even bothering making a BP film. I don;t believe this is due to them fearing they would include anything racist but that something they wold never even consider being offensive would set someone off. And race baiters like Sharpton love to smell that blood in the water especially when there's a chance for big press and possibly money and Disney would be a prime target for that should the opportunity present itself. I know there are those who say Disney should just suck it up and grow a thicker skin but as I said before, for a company like Disney who prides itself on diversity, the last thing they want is the taint of racism attached to them. If you say this wouldn't happen look no further than what phantom x posted a couple posts up. This is what they are afraid of.

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Originally Posted by E-Man
As for other minorities I've been asking for that too. I even made a thread about it because I feel that us black people are more vocal about it. I think it stems from the fact that we are the largest minority in the U.S.(or at least we used to be) and the fact that other groups just aren't vocal about it. With Southeast Asians there is such a big market of business out there in Southeast Asia that there are plenty of opportunities for portrayals featuring them. For them there is an alternative, so they might not complain as much because there are many media representing them. With Native Americans they are so forgotten it's so damn sad, and Arab people have been complaining for years about how poorly they're portrayed in Western cinema. But I say bring it on. I don't want just black people on screen. I want to see some more people from different races and ethnic backgrounds. Diversity is good to me because it gives more story opportunities. That's why I'm hoping they have the balls to do Guardians of the Galaxy in space with a talking raccoon and sentient tree without apologizing for it. It's nice that they're doing something off the beaten path, but the reasoning given for Black Panther's lack of a film is the same old song and dance black people have heard for years, and it irks us to hear it from a so called diverse company proclaiming themselves to be the House of Ideas.

AS I said before, they should get the people behind the 'Coming to America' production to head up this film. I think that would work out well and would be a good move for Disney.


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Old 07-20-2012, 08:06 AM   #220
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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But aren't there things that are 'white male things' and some things that are 'white female things' and other things that are 'black things'? I mean, isn't hip-hop or rap music mainly considered black male or female things'? I don't see anyone getting upset about that. I don't hear anyone crying for more diversity in the hiphop music industry. And why should they? Yet again, you can leave white males out of anything but don't try to make anything that is exclusive to them or watch out. Why is that? Note: not that I think the people behind Avengers was deliberately trying to exclude anyone. BUt they still get accused of it.
I actually don't like the idea of labeling things as "white male things," "white female things," or "black things" when it comes to something that has become part of mainstream culture, like comic book superheroes. From the artists and writers down to the vendors and readers and fans, people who are involved with and invested in comic book superheroes are not only white American males. Sure, mostly white, Jewish men in the 30s and 40s created the first "superheroes" in America, but since then they have become something beyond anything culturally Jewish.

I agree with you about the Avengers movie, that they didn't deliberately try to exclude anyone; Joss Whedon did a great job to make the movie universally enjoyable, but one should note that even he has expressed the desire to diversify the roster if he were to work on a sequel.

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You're right. I didn't know that half those things were offensive. Sorry you had to go to all the trouble to illustrate your point but you just reinforced what I've been saying. Black people are represented more than any other minority race in superhero comics which are published mainly by white writers/artists yet I hear more complaints from black people than from any other minority group whose own race/culture has even less representation in the genre.

It's either there aren't enough black heroes or they aren't represented right.
Just because because black people are represented more than other minorities doesn't mean that their complaints aren't valid.

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For the record, I wish every race/ethnicity had multiple heroes for the races they represent to look up to. I have always been of the mind that every hero is someone's favorite and want to see even second or third teer heroes presented with as much respect as the top tier ones. But it is what it is.
"It is what it is" should not keep us from continuing to hope for what you wish for, or from calling out that disparity when it exists, or from taking action in any way to move our society towards that direction.

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My point is, in the end, I think the talk of people looking for deliberate sabatoging of a BP film based on racist reasons could ultimately hurt the possibility of one ever getting made.
I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Where have you seen people looking for deliberate sabotaging?

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Old 07-20-2012, 08:49 AM   #221
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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I actually don't like the idea of labeling things as "white male things," "white female things," or "black things" when it comes to something that has become part of mainstream culture, like comic book superheroes. From the artists and writers down to the vendors and readers and fans, people who are involved with and invested in comic book superheroes are not only white American males. Sure, mostly white, Jewish men in the 30s and 40s created the first "superheroes" in America, but since then they have become something beyond anything culturally Jewish.
Hiphop music has become part of the mainstream - you hear it in ads for cars, phones, all sorts of things. People across all races and cultures listen to it. Do you not agree that the hiphop industry is made up predominantly of black people (artists, producers, etc.)? How can black people basically have this monopoly on that industry and there be no complaints that there should be more diversity?

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Originally Posted by spideymouse
Just because because black people are represented more than other minorities doesn't mean that their complaints aren't valid.

Here is what Eman wrote earlier in this thread (my quotes in red):
One thing I noticed with a lot of black characters is that they have good powers, but there is always this "but" there that keeps them from being elite. Black Panther is this great king with great physical attributes and resources, "but" he's definitely not superhuman (neither is Batman and Batman isn't even a king - is this a valid complaint?), and where he gets that limit no one minds when Captain America sometimes surpasses that limit he's supposed to be the benchmark for. Storm is very powerful, "but" she isn't an Omega level mutant, nor as strong as all of those damn Summers in the X-titles (she's more powerful than Wolverine, arguably the most popular X-man - is this a valid complaint?). Luke Cage is super strong and durable (more durable than Spidey, probably the most popular Marvel hero of all - is this a valid complaint?), "but" he's the weakest brick on Marvel Earth by a large margin. Blade has cool vampire powers that let him heal, "but" he's not on Wolverine or Deadpool's level in terms of healing factor (but better than Cap's healing factor, the living legend from WW2 - is this a valid complaint?). John Stewart is powerful as hell because he's a Green Lantern, "but" so are the other Lanterns (is this a valid complaint, that he isn't the MOST POWRFUL GL?).

Basically many black heroes seem to be limited by this glass ceiling type thing. (as I said earlier, tell me ONE THING Spider-Man is the elite at in comics - at least T'challa has one thing that NO OTHER hero has - he is KING OF HIS COUNTRY) That's not saying that white writers make them that way, or that white writers are racist. Hell Stan wrote Black Panther up very highly. I say Stan because when Kirby was writing the book BP was barely the star, and he just sort of got shocked at **** and occasionally punched something. But when black writers have written black characters they never put limits on them. Some of them might have the character do crazy stuff they shouldn't, but they never limit them. Just look at Milestone for instance. Static was powerful as hell. He wasn't some uber powerful god, but there were always moments when he did something amazing that showed off his skills. When Priest wrote Black Panther he did many an amazing thing. Grevioux probably wrote the most capable Night Thrasher yet, and that's saying a lot when you consider that Fabian Niceiza did a damn good job making him a bad ass in the 90s. McDuffie may get a lot of flack for that chicken wing armlock Black Panther put Silver Surfer in, but beyond that he has always written black characters without any silly limitations. (So black heroes should be all-powerful with no limitations? Is that a valid request?) Again, you can't have a story where the black hero is both 'too black' AND 'not black enough'. They can't both be valid complaints yet you hear both on these boards.

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"It is what it is" should not keep us from continuing to hope for what you wish for, or from calling out that disparity when it exists, or from taking action in any way to move our society towards that direction.
AS you say, i obviously continue to hope for what I wish for. But the truth is there will probably always be a disparity just like there will be in hiphop music. There are other things that are more exclusive to other races and cultures and as much as you say you don't like to call things as such doesn't change the fact that they exist. And for the most part, those disparities are not complained about.

Tel me something, when you see a commercial with a bunch of kids and there is like one white kid, one black kid, one Asian kid and one Hispanic kid, and half are male and half are female, do you see that and go, 'yes, that is exactly the way it really is!'? If you do, go to your nearest high school and go into the cafeteria at lunchtime and you'll see differently. Sad but true.

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Originally Posted by spideymouse
I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Where have you seen people looking for deliberate sabotaging?
My argument was that if something WERE perceived to be racist in a BP film, some would come to the conclusion that it would have HAD to be deliberate because it couldn't have accidentally gotten in as closely as Disney and Marvel are supposedly watching for it.


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Old 07-20-2012, 10:00 AM   #222
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Hiphop music has become part of the mainstream - you hear it in ads for cars, phones, all sorts of things. People across all races and cultures listen to it. Do you not agree that the hiphop industry is made up predominantly of black people (artists, producers, etc.)? How can black people basically have this monopoly on that industry and there be no complaints that there should be more diversity?
While I agree that it is predominantly historically made up of black people, I don't agree that hip hop is solely a "black thing" anymore, nor should it be considered as such. IMO, the best rapper currently out there is white. As hip hop (and anything, really) becomes more and more mainstream, the industry has evolved so that people from other backgrounds--European Americans, Asian Americans, Latino Americans, etc. as well as people around the world--have adopted it into their own cultures. Actually, that has been true of many originally "black things," especially in the music world. The same is true of most types of foods in America. It is the sharing of ideas and cultural values are what is important to breaking down supposed "ethnic" barriers and change prejudiced minds.

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Here is what Eman wrote earlier in this thread (my quotes in red):
One thing I noticed with a lot of black characters is that they have good powers, but there is always this "but" there that keeps them from being elite. Black Panther is this great king with great physical attributes and resources, "but" he's definitely not superhuman (neither is Batman and Batman isn't even a king - is this a valid complaint?), and where he gets that limit no one minds when Captain America sometimes surpasses that limit he's supposed to be the benchmark for. Storm is very powerful, "but" she isn't an Omega level mutant, nor as strong as all of those damn Summers in the X-titles (she's more powerful than Wolverine, arguably the most popular X-man - is this a valid complaint?). Luke Cage is super strong and durable (more durable than Spidey, probably the most popular Marvel hero of all - is this a valid complaint?), "but" he's the weakest brick on Marvel Earth by a large margin. Blade has cool vampire powers that let him heal, "but" he's not on Wolverine or Deadpool's level in terms of healing factor (but better than Cap's healing factor, the living legend from WW2 - is this a valid complaint?). John Stewart is powerful as hell because he's a Green Lantern, "but" so are the other Lanterns (is this a valid complaint, that he isn't the MOST POWRFUL GL?).

Basically many black heroes seem to be limited by this glass ceiling type thing. (as I said earlier, tell me ONE THING Spider-Man is the elite at in comics - at least T'challa has one thing that NO OTHER hero has - he is KING OF HIS COUNTRY) That's not saying that white writers make them that way, or that white writers are racist. Hell Stan wrote Black Panther up very highly. I say Stan because when Kirby was writing the book BP was barely the star, and he just sort of got shocked at **** and occasionally punched something. But when black writers have written black characters they never put limits on them. Some of them might have the character do crazy stuff they shouldn't, but they never limit them. Just look at Milestone for instance. Static was powerful as hell. He wasn't some uber powerful god, but there were always moments when he did something amazing that showed off his skills. When Priest wrote Black Panther he did many an amazing thing. Grevioux probably wrote the most capable Night Thrasher yet, and that's saying a lot when you consider that Fabian Niceiza did a damn good job making him a bad ass in the 90s. McDuffie may get a lot of flack for that chicken wing armlock Black Panther put Silver Surfer in, but beyond that he has always written black characters without any silly limitations. (So black heroes should be all-powerful with no limitations? Is that a valid request?) Again, you can't have a story where the black hero is both 'too black' AND 'not black enough'. They can't both be valid complaints yet you hear both on these boards.
I don't see how this has to do with what we were discussing regarding the black voice vs. the voice of other minorities when it comes to ethnic representation in comics. But to respond, Spider-Man's appeal is in the fact that he's the quintessential "everyman" of superheroes--that in itself is an archetype which no other superhero can claim.

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AS you say, i obviously continue to hope for what I wish for. But the truth is there will probably always be a disparity just like there will be in hip hop music. There are other things that are more exclusive to other races and cultures and as much as you say you don't like to call things as such doesn't change the fact that they exist. And for the most part, those disparities are not complained about.
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Tel me something, when you see a commercial with a bunch of kids and there is like one white kid, one black kid, one Asian kid and one Hispanic kid, and half are male and half are female, do you see that and go, 'yes, that is exactly the way it really is!'? If you do, go to your nearest high school and go into the cafeteria at lunchtime and you'll see differently. Sad but true.
Sad, sometimes true, and not necessarily good. Actually, my groups of friends in high school were pretty diverse in terms of ethnicity and gender; we were drawn to each other based on common interests. You may be describing what does occur often, but does that mean you actually WANT kids to watch commercials with kids broken up based on the color of their skin, or commercials with only one certain kind of kid with a specific look? That would only help perpetuate the ideas that lead to the prejudice and discrimination you see in high school and beyond. I'm not saying diversity in commercials prevents kids from being racists, but why not promote diversity when you can?

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My argument was that if something WERE perceived to be racist in a BP film, some would come to the conclusion that it would have HAD to be deliberate because it couldn't have accidentally gotten in as closely as Disney and Marvel are supposedly watching for it.
That's what you're saying about the Avengers film, too, right? People have called Marvel out for excluding minorities from the roster, even though that wasn't their intention inherently. Still, Marvel made the movie. So, I understand that that possibility could be greater for a BP film.

OTOH, I believe the opposite outcome could come about. When BP was rumored to be the 2014 mystery movie, I saw predominantly positive feedback from the Internet community that Marvel was finally going to introduce some diversity to the MCU in terms of main characters, and that they were being brave enough to do so. Did you not see that as well?

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Old 07-20-2012, 11:55 AM   #223
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Originally Posted by Spider - Man View Post
Here is what Eman wrote earlier in this thread (my quotes in red):
One thing I noticed with a lot of black characters is that they have good powers, but there is always this "but" there that keeps them from being elite. Black Panther is this great king with great physical attributes and resources, "but" he's definitely not superhuman (neither is Batman and Batman isn't even a king - is this a valid complaint?), and where he gets that limit no one minds when Captain America sometimes surpasses that limit he's supposed to be the benchmark for. Storm is very powerful, "but" she isn't an Omega level mutant, nor as strong as all of those damn Summers in the X-titles (she's more powerful than Wolverine, arguably the most popular X-man - is this a valid complaint?). Luke Cage is super strong and durable (more durable than Spidey, probably the most popular Marvel hero of all - is this a valid complaint?), "but" he's the weakest brick on Marvel Earth by a large margin. Blade has cool vampire powers that let him heal, "but" he's not on Wolverine or Deadpool's level in terms of healing factor (but better than Cap's healing factor, the living legend from WW2 - is this a valid complaint?). John Stewart is powerful as hell because he's a Green Lantern, "but" so are the other Lanterns (is this a valid complaint, that he isn't the MOST POWRFUL GL?).

Basically many black heroes seem to be limited by this glass ceiling type thing. (as I said earlier, tell me ONE THING Spider-Man is the elite at in comics - at least T'challa has one thing that NO OTHER hero has - he is KING OF HIS COUNTRY) That's not saying that white writers make them that way, or that white writers are racist. Hell Stan wrote Black Panther up very highly. I say Stan because when Kirby was writing the book BP was barely the star, and he just sort of got shocked at **** and occasionally punched something. But when black writers have written black characters they never put limits on them. Some of them might have the character do crazy stuff they shouldn't, but they never limit them. Just look at Milestone for instance. Static was powerful as hell. He wasn't some uber powerful god, but there were always moments when he did something amazing that showed off his skills. When Priest wrote Black Panther he did many an amazing thing. Grevioux probably wrote the most capable Night Thrasher yet, and that's saying a lot when you consider that Fabian Niceiza did a damn good job making him a bad ass in the 90s. McDuffie may get a lot of flack for that chicken wing armlock Black Panther put Silver Surfer in, but beyond that he has always written black characters without any silly limitations. (So black heroes should be all-powerful with no limitations? Is that a valid request?) Again, you can't have a story where the black hero is both 'too black' AND 'not black enough'. They can't both be valid complaints yet you hear both on these boards.
There is a hyphen in E-Man. Just like another certain hero that spins webs any size and all that.

Let me explain what I mean by saying that black heroes are limited. You mentioned Batman. Good example there of a guy who doesn't have powers. But two things about him in relation to my argument.

1. He's not one of the very few representations of white heroes in comics, so him not having powers isn't a bad thing at all. There's still the rest of the Justice League originals who are white and insanely powerful next to him. With black people there aren't many representations, and their powers usually have some kind of glass ceiling on it. If you got the 6 minutes here is a funny video that talks about it a bit. It's not entirely accurate, but it's funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB7DlcDto4Y

2. Batman frequently steps outside of his bounds. Even though he has no powers he always does things that he shouldn't because he's Batman. They do that whole Bat god thing where he does things alongside the JLA like it's nothing. Black Panther has done those types of things before, but Marvel never pushes it. It's always in the back corner of his own comic somewhere. I don't want him to do any stupid Batgod type **** that's ridiculous. That chicken wing on Silver Surfer was enough, but I do want him to actually do kingly stuff the way Dr. Doom does. Doom wouldn't be caught dead filling in for a superhero on vacation the way Black Panther did in Man Without Fear. Doom is a villain, but what about Black Bolt? Thor even? Black Panther has all that power in Wakanda, but he needed to test himself in freaking Hell's Kitchen?

I don't want all black characters to be all powerful. I just don't want that damn glass ceiling. Same thing with other races. All the uber powerful and elite comics characters are either white or some weird cosmic color.

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Old 07-20-2012, 12:36 PM   #224
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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2. Batman frequently steps outside of his bounds. Even though he has no powers he always does things that he shouldn't because he's Batman. They do that whole Bat god thing where he does things alongside the JLA like it's nothing. Black Panther has done those types of things before, but Marvel never pushes it. It's always in the back corner of his own comic somewhere. I don't want him to do any stupid Batgod type **** that's ridiculous. That chicken wing on Silver Surfer was enough, but I do want him to actually do kingly stuff the way Dr. Doom does. Doom wouldn't be caught dead filling in for a superhero on vacation the way Black Panther did in Man Without Fear. Doom is a villain, but what about Black Bolt? Thor even? Black Panther has all that power in Wakanda, but he needed to test himself in freaking Hell's Kitchen?

I don't want all black characters to be all powerful. I just don't want that damn glass ceiling. Same thing with other races. All the uber powerful and elite comics characters are either white or some weird cosmic color.
Hmm. Well, I would say that with a BP movie, Marvel has the opportunity to break that glass ceiling. I thought his characterization in Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes did that in some pretty cool ways. He became one of my favorite characters once he was introduced. Some of the later episodes failed to focus on him very much, though he was pretty awesome in the Operation: Galactic Storm episode in Season 2.

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Old 07-20-2012, 01:29 PM   #225
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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While I agree that it is predominantly historically made up of black people, I don't agree that hip hop is solely a "black thing" anymore, nor should it be considered as such. IMO, the best rapper currently out there is white. As hip hop (and anything, really) becomes more and more mainstream, the industry has evolved so that people from other backgrounds--European Americans, Asian Americans, Latino Americans, etc. as well as people around the world--have adopted it into their own cultures. Actually, that has been true of many originally "black things," especially in the music world. The same is true of most types of foods in America. It is the sharing of ideas and cultural values are what is important to breaking down supposed "ethnic" barriers and change prejudiced minds.
Comics are a medium just like hiphop. Comics are created mostly by white guys where hiphop is created mostly by black people. They are both mediums that are enjoyed across many cultures and races. But whereas hiphop artists aren't asked to make changes or inclusions to appease any other ethnic or racial group, comic book creators are asked to do so and then get complaints when they don't do it just so. Honestly, the only way to get more diversity into comics is to get more diverse creators into comics. M&M raps the way he raps, he doesn't sound black and he makes his rap music his own. What if someone said to him, 'Man, you need to sound a little more black on that song.' Sounds silly, right? Yet, white writers get blasted because they can't quite get the black heroes they write just the way black readers want them to be.


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I don't see how this has to do with what we were discussing regarding the black voice vs. the voice of other minorities when it comes to ethnic representation in comics. But to respond, Spider-Man's appeal is in the fact that he's the quintessential "everyman" of superheroes--that in itself is an archetype which no other superhero can claim.
You don;t see that eman said all black superheroes have a glass ceiling because they always come with a 'but' and I respond with Spidey as an example saying he has a but about EVERYTHING. He isn't the strongest, fastest, smartest, toughest...none of that. But no one complains that he has a glass ceiling. And how is he the 'everyman'? A science-genius orphan raised by his aunt and uncle (who gets murdered) is an 'everyman'? I'd say Kyle Raynor or Wally West would be much more of a quintessential 'everyman'. Heck, Johnny Storm has a more normal life (outside of his powers) than Peter.


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Originally Posted by spideymouse
Sad, sometimes true, and not necessarily good. Actually, my groups of friends in high school were pretty diverse in terms of ethnicity and gender; we were drawn to each other based on common interests. You may be describing what does occur often, but does that mean you actually WANT kids to watch commercials with kids broken up based on the color of their skin, or commercials with only one certain kind of kid with a specific look? That would only help perpetuate the ideas that lead to the prejudice and discrimination you see in high school and beyond. I'm not saying diversity in commercials prevents kids from being racists, but why not promote diversity when you can?
Then you and your friends were in the minority (no pun intended) because I see what it's really like at public schools today. There is basically self-segregation with very few exceptions.

And we live in a much more Orwellian society thatn most people will admit. And the broadcast media has realized what kind of power it truly wields in the last few years. And they paint pretty pictures of these groupings of kids you'd only find in fantasy land (or at your school I suppose) but the reality is they'll have to get more sinister with their methods because what they're showing ain't having the effect they wish it would. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. On the contrary I get a chuckle every time I see such an example.

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Originally Posted by spideymouse

That's what you're saying about the Avengers film, too, right? People have called Marvel out for excluding minorities from the roster, even though that wasn't their intention inherently. Still, Marvel made the movie. So, I understand that that possibility could be greater for a BP film.
Exactly my point. Possibility? Try certainty. I guess you chose to ignore the post I referred you to above by phantom x. That's nothing compared to what is coming with the release of a BP film.

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Originally Posted by spideymouse
OTOH, I believe the opposite outcome could come about. When BP was rumored to be the 2014 mystery movie, I saw predominantly positive feedback from the Internet community that Marvel was finally going to introduce some diversity to the MCU in terms of main characters, and that they were being brave enough to do so. Did you not see that as well?
And that's the way it goes. Initial elation then preemptive complaining.

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