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Old Today, 01:58 PM   #876
Matt
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Default Re: F'dup Chapters in American History(The Trump Years) - - Part 11

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Originally Posted by Raiden View Post
So if Mueller won't try to indict Trump and Trump has already disclosed his willingness to pardon anyone from his circle who will be found guilty, how will anybody in this Administration ever be sent to jail over their perjury, corruption, and blatant abuse of power?
Well, a few ways.

1) They get convicted for a state level offense. Remember, the President can only pardon federal crimes. There is a reason the NYAG is so interested in Trump's financials. If Mueller digs deep, once the report comes out, I would not be surprised to see the State of New York bring some sort of state level financial crime charge against Trump or his sons.

2) Trump doesn't actually pardon anyone. Pardoning associates and employees would be the stupidest thing Trump could do. Once they are pardoned, they have no Fifth Amendment protection. The Fifth Amendment is not the right to avoid testimony. It is the right against the government compelling you to self-incriminate. If pardoned, there is no risk of that. As such, when subpoenaed by Congress, they will not be able to plead the Fifth and could be held in contempt for refusing to answer. Trump does not want to open Pandora's Box like that. Especially since the notion that POTUS can pardon himself is, at best, dubious. By pardoning all of his co-conspirators, Trump may have taken away the one thing that could keep them from testifying (as testifying about Trump's guilt would likely be self-incriminating as well) and open himself up to conviction.

3) Someone is scapegoated. Trump may very well throw Kushner or other associates under the bus to save himself. If that happens, some of his cronies will see the inside of a cell.


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Old Today, 01:58 PM   #877
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Default Re: F'dup Chapters in American History(The Trump Years) - - Part 11

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/22/politi...ons/index.html

"The House and Senate reached a deal Saturday to slap Russia with fresh sanctions and give Congress new veto power to block any easing of those sanctions -- an agreement that could send a new bill to President Donald Trump's desk before the end of the month."

Can't wait for the inevitable tweet storms that comes because of this "WHY CAN'T WE BE FRIENDS WITH RUSSIA. WE'RE NOT SO INNOCENT EITHER YOU KNOW!"


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Old Today, 02:07 PM   #878
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Default Re: F'dup Chapters in American History(The Trump Years) - - Part 11

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Originally Posted by fancyarcher View Post
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/22/politi...ons/index.html

"The House and Senate reached a deal Saturday to slap Russia with fresh sanctions and give Congress new veto power to block any easing of those sanctions -- an agreement that could send a new bill to President Donald Trump's desk before the end of the month."

Can't wait for the inevitable tweet storms that comes because of this "WHY CAN'T WE BE FRIENDS WITH RUSSIA. WE'RE NOT SO INNOCENT EITHER YOU KNOW!"
I'm honestly not sure that this legislation will pass constitutional muster (I think there are separation of powers issues, as this does seem like the legislature overstepping its bounds into the realm of powers reserved for POTUS by the Constitution). But I do love the political box it puts Trump in. SCOTUS cannot rule on a law that is not passed. It will come to Trump's desk one way or another and its lose/lose for him.

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Old Today, 03:07 PM   #879
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Default Re: F'dup Chapters in American History(The Trump Years) - - Part 11

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Well, a few ways.

1) They get convicted for a state level offense. Remember, the President can only pardon federal crimes. There is a reason the NYAG is so interested in Trump's financials. If Mueller digs deep, once the report comes out, I would not be surprised to see the State of New York bring some sort of state level financial crime charge against Trump or his sons.

2) Trump doesn't actually pardon anyone. Pardoning associates and employees would be the stupidest thing Trump could do. Once they are pardoned, they have no Fifth Amendment protection. The Fifth Amendment is not the right to avoid testimony. It is the right against the government compelling you to self-incriminate. If pardoned, there is no risk of that. As such, when subpoenaed by Congress, they will not be able to plead the Fifth and could be held in contempt for refusing to answer. Trump does not want to open Pandora's Box like that. Especially since the notion that POTUS can pardon himself is, at best, dubious. By pardoning all of his co-conspirators, Trump may have taken away the one thing that could keep them from testifying (as testifying about Trump's guilt would likely be self-incriminating as well) and open himself up to conviction.

3) Someone is scapegoated. Trump may very well throw Kushner or other associates under the bus to save himself. If that happens, some of his cronies will see the inside of a cell.
Very interesting. I do wonder though - and forgive me if this is a stupid question - if Mueller does find something criminal in Trump's finances can that actually be used against Trump? Because this is supposed to just be an investigation about obstruction, right?

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Old Today, 03:52 PM   #880
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Default Re: F'dup Chapters in American History(The Trump Years) - - Part 11

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Its been a rough week.
We have to remember he's new at this, he's not a politician.

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Old Today, 03:58 PM   #881
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Default Re: F'dup Chapters in American History(The Trump Years) - - Part 11

Former spy chiefs tear into Trump


ASPEN, Colorado — Two former top U.S. intelligence officials tore into President Donald Trump on Friday, saying in sometimes personal terms that Trump has shown disrespect for intelligence officials and a distasteful affinity for Russian President Vladimir Putin, and warning he may be endangering U.S. national security.

The two former Obama administration officials, former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper and former CIA director John Brennan, also strongly defended their response to Russia’s meddling in the 2016 presidential election against criticism that they had not sufficiently punished Putin.

"I think we did pretty damn well.... there was no playbook for this,” Brennan said, adding that he “threw a high, hard one" at his Russian counterpart in a phone call last summer warning the Russians to stop interfering in the election.

“This is uncharted seas that we were trying to navigate,” Clapper added. Both men endorsed the creation of a law requiring regular disclosures to Congress of foreign cyber intrusions before U.S. elections.

But it was a sustained critique of Trump that dominated their joint appearance before an audience of national security insiders panel discussion here at the Aspen Security Forum in Aspen, Colorado.

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Old Today, 05:38 PM   #882
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Default Re: F'dup Chapters in American History(The Trump Years) - - Part 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt View Post
Well, a few ways.

1) They get convicted for a state level offense. Remember, the President can only pardon federal crimes. There is a reason the NYAG is so interested in Trump's financials. If Mueller digs deep, once the report comes out, I would not be surprised to see the State of New York bring some sort of state level financial crime charge against Trump or his sons.

2) Trump doesn't actually pardon anyone. Pardoning associates and employees would be the stupidest thing Trump could do. Once they are pardoned, they have no Fifth Amendment protection. The Fifth Amendment is not the right to avoid testimony. It is the right against the government compelling you to self-incriminate. If pardoned, there is no risk of that. As such, when subpoenaed by Congress, they will not be able to plead the Fifth and could be held in contempt for refusing to answer. Trump does not want to open Pandora's Box like that. Especially since the notion that POTUS can pardon himself is, at best, dubious. By pardoning all of his co-conspirators, Trump may have taken away the one thing that could keep them from testifying (as testifying about Trump's guilt would likely be self-incriminating as well) and open himself up to conviction.

3) Someone is scapegoated. Trump may very well throw Kushner or other associates under the bus to save himself. If that happens, some of his cronies will see the inside of a cell.
I expect Trump to fire up more tweet storms about "witch hunt" as they get closer and closer to the source. I believe he will exercise his pardon "rights" as he said he would; he will not hesitate to do anything even if it means it is not ethical.

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Old Today, 08:45 PM   #883
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Default Re: F'dup Chapters in American History(The Trump Years) - - Part 11

I'm getting curious what Trump's told his lawyers. The emails come out. Then Trump's old lead lawyer quits. Trump warns Mueller that looking into past finances is a red line. Next Trump starts looking into if he can pardon himself. Finally Trump's new lawyer goes on TV, and says any crimes they find would be beyond the statute of limitations.

My guess, Trump told his previous lawyers of some crimes that may pop up under attorney client confidentiality. Trump's old lawyer thinks, "screw it, I can't defend him from this", and leaves. His new lawyer comes in, and immediately starts early damage control knowing what's out there.

The reason I say this is, how else would Trump's lawyer know that potential crimes committed are beyond the statute of limitations? Especially since the statute for felonies is like 3 years, 7 years for other things, ect. Trump had to have told him something specific, and it most likely would warrant a pardon to prevent jail time.

Though this is the same lawyer who said Trump was under investigation twice, then 30 seconds later angerly denied Trump was being investigated.

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Old Today, 09:03 PM   #884
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Default Re: F'dup Chapters in American History(The Trump Years) - - Part 11

If you are referring to Kasowitz, I don't think he really stepped down for not being able to defend Trump.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.a6b6e9018952

He has his own issues.

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Old Today, 09:29 PM   #885
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Default Re: F'dup Chapters in American History(The Trump Years) - - Part 11

Matt, barring any personal issues, why would any lawyer choose to step away from Trump and his associates right now? It seems to me that they are a golden cash cow for any lawyers on their payroll for the past few months and the foreseeable future.

I have no notion if this is assumption is actually correct, but I would think any top-tier lawyers working for Trump would be all about making lots of money.

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Old Today, 09:43 PM   #886
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Default Re: F'dup Chapters in American History(The Trump Years) - - Part 11

2 reasons.

1. Trump doesn't listen.
2. Trump doesn't pay.

He is no way an easy source of income.

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