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Old 04-07-2017, 04:22 AM   #76
Delwin
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x16 - "What If" - Discussion Thread

The structure of the Framework is logical and fits the model of some kind of the alternative reality - when from single changes in the history (May does not kill the child) the whole history changes. Of course it was not the only option but it is viable enough. Only Ward-bot being able to rebel is much of the stretch - but it gives a lot of fun.

Concerning the others - I am afraid that Macy will not return from the Framework. Possibly dying as a hero.

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Old 04-07-2017, 04:41 AM   #77
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x16 - "What If" - Discussion Thread

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The structure of the Framework is logical and fits the model of some kind of the alternative reality - when from single changes in the history (May does not kill the child) the whole history changes. Of course it was not the only option but it is viable enough. Only Ward-bot being able to rebel is much of the stretch - but it gives a lot of fun.

Concerning the others - I am afraid that Macy will not return from the Framework. Possibly dying as a hero.
Since May was the first "prisoner" in the Framework, Aida designed it to be something that May needs, something that May might enjoy. May can't live a peaceful life, she needs challenges, strife, endless action. Therefore, Hydra-May needs a Resistance movement that would keep her occupied forever, so Aida gave it to her. And that scenario includes Ward-bot thinking like a human being and defecting to the Resistance.

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Old 04-07-2017, 06:54 AM   #78
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x16 - "What If" - Discussion Thread

I don't think the thing that May was put in originally was the framework. That wasn't built until later. All we know about it for sure is that each character has their greatest regret removed from the virtual reality they're in, the rest is just causality.

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Old 04-07-2017, 08:26 AM   #79
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x16 - "What If" - Discussion Thread

Here's a what if for you. What if Daisy gets exposed to terrigen in the framework? Will she get her actual powers in the framework or something else?

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Old 04-07-2017, 10:10 AM   #80
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x16 - "What If" - Discussion Thread

I thought this ep was too slow and dull. Kind of a step down after a string of great episodes before.

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Old 04-07-2017, 10:44 AM   #81
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x16 - "What If" - Discussion Thread

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Therefore, Hydra-May needs a Resistance movement that would keep her occupied forever, so Aida gave it to her. And that scenario includes Ward-bot thinking like a human being and defecting to the Resistance.
Good point. In that case Ward is just a nod to the fans :-).


Last edited by Delwin; 04-07-2017 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 04-07-2017, 11:58 AM   #82
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x16 - "What If" - Discussion Thread

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His regret is going to be to do with his father & the relationship they had/didn't have. That & the fact that Jemma wasn't in his life made him into the person we saw in the episode.... but, he still seems to have the drive to protect people close to him and as Aida put herself close to him, his drive is to protect her.



What I got from the episode was his mind joining the dots on it's own was probably more to do with T.A.H.I.T.I. rather than any training



Daisy jacked into the Framework through not official means, which meant that her 'avatar' in the FW was just a program rather than her, the situation she was in (living with Ward) isn't to do with her regrets. if her regrets were affecting the FW, then it would have been Lincoln in the bed IMHO.



Oh God...This one will break people...



Not seen the promo...



I think May is probably more broken than she was at the start of the show, the incident with the kid in RL wrecked her so knowing that the kid wouldn't have killed all the others in the 'Cambridge incident' would completely tear her to pieces. Then HYDRA appears (or already existed publicly) promising to keep people safe from the Inhuman infestation, I could see her joining them and letting herself be run by the rules and order of HYDRA rather than think about her own being (if that makes sense).



Like Daisy, Jemma hacked in, her avatar was doing what AIDA wanted rather than what she would have done. Aida knows that the only way to break Fitz from her control is to get him near Simmons.... and that with FitzSimmons together again, they'd eventually escape to stop her in the Real World... so she had the Avatar of Simmons murdered in the HYDRA uprising to keep Fitz from being able to escape her grasp.
Good stuff............

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Old 04-07-2017, 07:31 PM   #83
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x16 - "What If" - Discussion Thread

What exactly has to happen,in this show, for Ward to get off our TV screens,permanently !!

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Old 04-07-2017, 09:17 PM   #84
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x16 - "What If" - Discussion Thread

Nothing, because he's become kind of a fan favorite. I remember nerds were saying he was such a flat character in the first couple seasons, now he's all that.

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Old 04-07-2017, 09:31 PM   #85
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x16 - "What If" - Discussion Thread

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What exactly has to happen,in this show, for Ward to get off our TV screens,permanently !!
I don't know but I want it to happen soon.

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Old 04-08-2017, 08:53 AM   #86
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x16 - "What If" - Discussion Thread

May became all cold, stoic and emotionally repressed after that girl got killed in Bahrain, and it turned her into the May we know today. Now, that girl gets saved in Bahrain (but goes on to kill a bunch of SHIELD agents) and May still turns out to be the cold, stoic and emotionally repressed character we've known.

I think she's just destined to be a cold fish whatever happens.

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Old 04-08-2017, 08:39 PM   #87
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x16 - "What If" - Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by britmotley View Post
What exactly has to happen,in this show, for Ward to get off our TV screens,permanently !!
The final twist of the season will be fake Ward finding a way into the real world & be unkillable since hes fake

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Old 04-08-2017, 10:32 PM   #88
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x16 - "What If" - Discussion Thread

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Nothing, because he's become kind of a fan favorite. I remember nerds were saying he was such a flat character in the first couple seasons, now he's all that.
Grant Ward is in the top 5 of MCU Villains easy.

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Old 04-08-2017, 10:43 PM   #89
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x16 - "What If" - Discussion Thread

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The final twist of the season will be fake Ward finding a way into the real world & be unkillable since hes fake
Stahp.

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Old 04-08-2017, 11:18 PM   #90
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x16 - "What If" - Discussion Thread

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The final twist of the season will be fake Ward finding a way into the real world & be unkillable since hes fake



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Old 04-09-2017, 05:03 AM   #91
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x16 - "What If" - Discussion Thread

Ward will heroically "die" in the Framework - possibly together with Mace. No other option - he is just Framework construct/bot (not sentient android like AIDA). Of course - theoreticall I can think of the story: AIDA proposes him to "come back" to real world by building an android body for him... He then double crosses either Shield team or AIDA (or both :-)).

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Old 04-09-2017, 08:36 AM   #92
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x16 - "What If" - Discussion Thread

I think his appearance here is very logical. As a backdoor finale (i.e., a story arc that could function as the final arc while still leaving things open for another season), it makes sense to have Ward back. We've essentially gone full circle. But I think the writers view this as a unique opportunity. I don't think they'd bring him back for a hypothetical season five.

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Old 04-09-2017, 09:08 AM   #93
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x16 - "What If" - Discussion Thread

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Ward will heroically "die" in the Framework - possibly together with Mace. No other option - he is just Framework construct/bot (not sentient android like AIDA). Of course - theoreticall I can think of the story: AIDA proposes him to "come back" to real world by building an android body for him... He then double crosses either Shield team or AIDA (or both :-)).
Im pretty sure AIDA will be dealt with in the finale as they are not doing the long term story thing anymore & Im sure next season will be a new story altogether & Mace like the core group is real in the framework can he die in there ?

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Old 04-09-2017, 11:55 AM   #94
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x16 - "What If" - Discussion Thread

As far as I remember the dialogues - death in the Framework causes death in the reality, so yes, Mace can die there...

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Old 04-10-2017, 12:30 AM   #95
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x16 - "What If" - Discussion Thread

A couple of general thoughts about the framework and some of the issues raised in previous posts:

1, I think Daisy would get the same powers in the framework, because Fitz has a machine that can experiment on inhumans and predict what they'll get if they change, so that seems fixed by their genes, and the genes are probably the same in the framework.

2. Aida probably does not know what's happening all over the framework, nor does she control it all. For example, she's tracking Jemma since she re-wrote her in the framework and made her alive again, but apparently can't track Daisy or Ward, unless she lied about that to Fitz, but I don't think she needed to do that: she could have just told him that she was tracking all three. I'm guessing she may have some god-like/simulation programmer intervention power which allows her to change stuff and set general trends within limits, but still most of the framework works without her predicting every detail. She may not have known that Ward was a traitor before he revealed himself, though if she can see through Jemma's eyes (which she might or might not), she knows now.

3. We do not know that the people in the framework aren't real (of course, they're fictional, but I mean from the perspective of the already fictional AoS world). Their behavior seems entirely realistic. Are they zombies? Maybe, but we don't have any good evidence of that. For all we know, they have subjective experiences, make their own choices, and so on. I would be inclined to say that that is the most probable scenario on the basis of the info available to us, and maybe even on the info available to Jemma and Daisy (perhaps, Jemma realized that already, given that she apologized to one of them after mistreating him and dismissing him as "rogue code". Then again, maybe she just wanted him to be nice to her).


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