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Old 04-12-2017, 05:42 PM   #51
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x17 - "Identity and Change" - Discussion Thread

Not sure what the looking glass is, but it sounds like a means for someone to cross over from one side to the other. I expect that's what they will use to escape in the end, but maybe some people in the framework will also escape.

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Old 04-13-2017, 10:05 AM   #52
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x17 - "Identity and Change" - Discussion Thread

I see Fitz working!

Think about it...... Aida gave everyone their hearts desire to make them stay contented in the Framework....

On the outside, Fitz has always been the book worm, put upon, little shot who is not respected for what most men wanted to be respected for.... He's not Grant Ward with the pecs and cheizeled chin. His only chance at romance was with the extremely mousy brainiac woman, Jemma Simmons.

Enter Aida..... his blow up doll fantasy. Aida becomes self aware with the Darkhold and senses Fitz's attraction to her.

NOW....Fitz has the hot chick of his dreams.... he's feared and respected (in a warped way)....he has power. And no one puts him down.

He's all in!! He's done.....

If by some chance he makes it out, he has some real stuff to account for with Simmons,....

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Old 04-13-2017, 03:51 PM   #53
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x17 - "Identity and Change" - Discussion Thread

I see Fitz as being the one that officially ends AIDA.

Unless they have Daisy Sue do it, of course.

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Old 04-13-2017, 04:03 PM   #54
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x17 - "Identity and Change" - Discussion Thread

Just one crazy thought about Fitz...

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Could it be that Framework-Fitz acts out of character because he isn't Fitz? I have no idea how the framework works, but is it possible that someone's representation in the framework doesn't have to look like he looks in the real world? Maybe Aida found Fitz' father in the real world and it's the father who IS Fitz in the framework...

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Old 04-13-2017, 09:46 PM   #55
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x17 - "Identity and Change" - Discussion Thread

Poor Daisy

Fitz went from I'll have her home by 8 to she calls me daddy too.


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Old 04-14-2017, 02:55 AM   #56
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x17 - "Identity and Change" - Discussion Thread

Okay, I know that I posted a totally different theory yesterday, but how about that one:

Aida said she took away everyone's regret. For May, this was not being able to save the girl in Bahrain, for Mack it was that his daughter died etc.

For Fitz, it was that his father left him when he was a child. That means in the framework, Fitz' father never left.

So could it be that Fitz is evil in the framework because his father stayed to bring Fitz up as an evil person - as evil as Fitz' father himself is?

This would imply, of course, that each person is born with a tabula rasa and could be turned into anything, even a merciless killer...

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Old 04-14-2017, 06:12 PM   #57
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x17 - "Identity and Change" - Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Incredible Hans View Post
Okay, I know that I posted a totally different theory yesterday, but how about that one:

Aida said she took away everyone's regret. For May, this was not being able to save the girl in Bahrain, for Mack it was that his daughter died etc.

For Fitz, it was that his father left him when he was a child. That means in the framework, Fitz' father never left.

So could it be that Fitz is evil in the framework because his father stayed to bring Fitz up as an evil person - as evil as Fitz' father himself is?

This would imply, of course, that each person is born with a tabula rasa and could be turned into anything, even a merciless killer...
Good theory. I think it'll play out something like this.

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Old 04-14-2017, 09:30 PM   #58
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x17 - "Identity and Change" - Discussion Thread

I pretty much fell out of interest with this show towards the end of S3 but I came back for these past 5 episodes after hearing how good they've been.

This arc has been really enjoyable with a great way to switch things up. Refreshing to see Ward back on SHIELDS side even if it is all in their heads. Only thing that would make these episodes better is if they brought back Bobbi/Mockingbird.

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Old 04-15-2017, 05:20 PM   #59
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x17 - "Identity and Change" - Discussion Thread

I wonder how long until everyone realizes that the reason that Hydra was able to be takeover was because Coulson never became an agent? Aida just alter the world to undo their greatest regret and the rest are just domino pieces. Without Coulson the Avengers never had anything to Avenge, hell without his presence in Iron Man 1 who know how much would have changed, would the Avenger's initiative ever be activated? Hydra took over because one man wasn't there, It's a Wonderful Life Agent Coulson.

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Old 04-15-2017, 05:44 PM   #60
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x17 - "Identity and Change" - Discussion Thread

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I wonder how long until everyone realizes that the reason that Hydra was able to be takeover was because Coulson never became an agent? Aida just alter the world to undo their greatest regret and the rest are just domino pieces. Without Coulson the Avengers never had anything to Avenge, hell without his presence in Iron Man 1 who know how much would have changed, would the Avenger's initiative ever be activated? Hydra took over because one man wasn't there, It's a Wonderful Life Agent Coulson.
Coulson becoming an Agent or not still wouldn't have prevented SHIELD from locating Captain America who would have still joined SHIELD and stopped Hydra from taking over in the events of "The Winter Soldier".

To say otherwise and take away the credit from the Avengers would feel wrong.

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Old 04-15-2017, 07:46 PM   #61
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x17 - "Identity and Change" - Discussion Thread

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Coulson becoming an Agent or not still wouldn't have prevented SHIELD from locating Captain America who would have still joined SHIELD and stopped Hydra from taking over in the events of "The Winter Soldier".

To say otherwise and take away the credit from the Avengers would feel wrong.
Well think about this if Coulson wasn't around another who ever was assigned to his mission could have handled things different that could have huge ripple effects.

In Iron Man if another agent was more demanding with debriefing Stark on his escape an agent wouldn't have been at Stark enterprises to give Pepper protection When Obadiah Stane discovers she downloaded incriminating evidence, thus Pepper wasn't there to help Stark defeat the Iron Monger Thus Stark dies.

At Thor's hammer another agent doesn't let Thor go to monitor him, content Sif and the warriors three wouldn't be able to get to him through shield custody in time, his plan to destroy the frost giants succeeds. Still Odin punishes him for genocide, he never falls into the void and never becomes an agent of Thanos.

Thanos either doesn't send another agent yet (which Aida doesn't know about so no Loki, no no Avengers or one who is successful, gets the cube, leave, and doesn't start a war that needs the Avengers Initiative.

Without the Battle of New York, shield never gets authorization for project insight.

With the discovery of InHumans Hydra finds another way to exert control.

Just small subtle things that ripple throughout.

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Old 04-15-2017, 11:02 PM   #62
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x17 - "Identity and Change" - Discussion Thread

With regard to the timeline in the framework and the Avengers, it seems to me (though I might be mistaken on this) that the Bahrain incident happened before Captain America was found (which I think happened in 2011).
In the framework, May did not kill the inhuman girl, she went on to kill many people in England IIRC, and that was the excuse that Hydra needed to attack and take over. As a result, SHIELD probably did not find Captain America, because SHIELD no longer existed. Hydra found Captain America, if anyone did. They probably have him locked in a box, experimenting on him, if he's still alive.

As for Thor, it's not clear that he would ever come to Earth in the framework. Running a simulation that simulates the whole planet is difficult enough. But simulating civilizations on other planets as well would take more computing power and information that probably isn't even available, and would be of no use to Aida anyway. She may well not have made Thor come to Earth. Alternatively, if Thor came to Earth in the framework, he would have been captured not by SHIELD, but by HYDRA. His chances would not be good.

Stark would not have stood much of a chance under HYDRA, either. He couldn't keep his identity a secret, so even if he managed to develop the Iron Man suit, the government (i.e., HYDRA) would have gone after him (and everyone he cared about), arrested him, and took the technology for themselves.

As for Black Widow and Hawkeye, they have no powers. They would have fought HYDRA, but would have been killed eventually.

The Hulk could do a lot of damage and kill many agents, but in the end, he probably would have been brought down one way or another - or else, Aida would have used her god-like powers in the framework to change things and get rid of him. She does not control everything that happens, but on specific occasions, she can intervene in that way (e.g., she rebuilt Jemma's body, apparently in order to track them).

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Old 04-17-2017, 08:07 AM   #63
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x17 - "Identity and Change" - Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by herolee10 View Post
Coulson becoming an Agent or not still wouldn't have prevented SHIELD from locating Captain America who would have still joined SHIELD and stopped Hydra from taking over in the events of "The Winter Soldier".

To say otherwise and take away the credit from the Avengers would feel wrong.
The impression I got from the "Fury's Big Week" tie in comic (to the first Avengers movie) was that Coulson was kind of a driving force behind the search for Cap. So him not being there/not being Fury's right hand man *might* have resulted in the search ending much sooner (in the tie-in comic, the WSC is telling Fury that the money being spent for the search could be better used elsewhere (i.e. for example researching the Tesseract/working on the Phase 2 weapons)

Also, as the other user pointed out, the timeline may have Framework!SHIELD falling well before RealWorld!SHIELD found Cap in 2012 (he was found/thawed out not too long before the events of Avengers - maybe a few months before at most)

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Old 04-17-2017, 08:48 AM   #64
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x17 - "Identity and Change" - Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Silvermoon View Post
The impression I got from the "Fury's Big Week" tie in comic (to the first Avengers movie) was that Coulson was kind of a driving force behind the search for Cap. So him not being there/not being Fury's right hand man *might* have resulted in the search ending much sooner (in the tie-in comic, the WSC is telling Fury that the money being spent for the search could be better used elsewhere (i.e. for example researching the Tesseract/working on the Phase 2 weapons)

Also, as the other user pointed out, the timeline may have Framework!SHIELD falling well before RealWorld!SHIELD found Cap in 2012 (he was found/thawed out not too long before the events of Avengers - maybe a few months before at most)
In real life Melinda May killed Katya Belyakov in 2008, three or four years before S.H.I.E.L.D. found Steve Rogers. In the Framework, Katya was brought from Bahrain to the United States where her powers caused the deaths of 279 people in a massacre which became known as the Cambridge Incident. S.H.I.E.L.D. was shut down and HYDRA took over the world.

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