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Old 04-26-2017, 08:39 AM   #1
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Default Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

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IT’S THE END OF S.H.I.E.L.D.’S WORLD, ON ABC’S ‘MARVEL’S AGENTS OF S.H.I.E.L.D.’

“Farewell, Cruel World!” – The clock is ticking for Daisy and Simmons to get the team out of the Framework, but not everyone is ready and willing to leave, on “Marvel’s Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.,” TUESDAY, MAY 2 (10:00-11:00 p.m. EDT), on The ABC Television Network.

“Marvel’s Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.” stars Clark Gregg as Agent Phil Coulson, Ming-Na Wen as Agent Melinda May, Chloe Bennet as Daisy Johnson, Iain De Caestecker as Agent Leo Fitz, Elizabeth Henstridge as Agent Jemma Simmons, Henry Simmons as Agent Alphonso “Mack” MacKenzie and John Hannah as Holden Radcliffe.

Guest starring are Natalia Cordova-Buckley as Elena “Yo-Yo” Rodriguez, Mallory Jansen as Madame Hydra/Aida, Jordan Rivera as Hope Mackenzie, Briana Venskus as Agent Piper, Maximilian Osinski as Agent Davis, Patrick Cavanaugh as Burrows, David O’Hara as Alistair, Ricardo Walker as Agent Prince, Rheagan Wallace as Marilyn and Richard Whiten as Gedrick.

“Farewell, Cruel World!” was written by Brent Fletcher and directed by Vincent Misiano.
Promo:

https://youtu.be/8HxKWknDoL0


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Old 04-26-2017, 08:41 AM   #2
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

That title is misleading, it makes me think we could finally leave this stupid framework story behind.

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Old 04-26-2017, 09:22 AM   #3
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

someone missing at 13 seconds.

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Old 04-26-2017, 09:41 AM   #4
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by just one thing View Post
someone missing at 13 seconds.
It's likely just the framing of the shot. Looking at the beginning of the last episode when Aida came out of the framework (about 4 1/2 min. into the episode) and they showed everyone, the order is (from left to right):

Mack
Empty 'pod' (where Mace was, I believe)
May
Coulson
Fitz

Empty pod
Empty pod


So the shot at 13 seconds in the promo just isn't a wide enough shot to show Mack on the other side of the empty pod at the left.

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Old 04-26-2017, 10:26 AM   #5
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

While I enjoyed the last two eps, I feel like this is dragging on too long. Another 2 episodes in the framework...ugh.

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Old 04-26-2017, 01:49 PM   #6
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Silvermoon View Post
It's likely just the framing of the shot. Looking at the beginning of the last episode when Aida came out of the framework (about 4 1/2 min. into the episode) and they showed everyone, the order is (from left to right):

Mack
Empty 'pod' (where Mace was, I believe)
May
Coulson
Fitz

Empty pod
Empty pod


So the shot at 13 seconds in the promo just isn't a wide enough shot to show Mack on the other side of the empty pod at the left.
makes sense.

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Old 04-26-2017, 11:43 PM   #7
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

I see Brett Dalton isn't playing in this episode.

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Old 04-27-2017, 03:42 AM   #8
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

Someone will be back from Framework - I expect Hope to be that person. Not Tripp or Ward. Of course the option with Evil Fitz coming back and real life Fitz at the same time sounds tempting as well...

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Old 04-27-2017, 06:19 AM   #9
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

They could have several people so that they all have to deal with them and the consequences next season. Fitz's father could come through, making life hell for Fitz while Mack will have Hope to deal with and Daisy and the team will have Ward. We've never actually had a true good Ward on the team before.

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Old 04-27-2017, 06:38 AM   #10
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

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That title is misleading, it makes me think we could finally leave this stupid framework story behind.
Don't tease me. I've been ready for it to end since it started. This story line is frustratingly stupid.

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Old 04-27-2017, 07:02 AM   #11
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

Maybe the story won't end fully this season. What if AIDA traps the real Fitz in the framework exactly as he is in real life so that he has to deal with his abusive father and hydra while the evil Fitz replaces the real one but everyone else doesn't know? That could be the season cliffhanger. Then Jemma would have to go back there next season to rescue him just like he did for her when she was trapped on that other world.

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Old 04-27-2017, 09:27 AM   #12
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

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Maybe the story won't end fully this season. What if AIDA traps the real Fitz in the framework exactly as he is in real life so that he has to deal with his abusive father and hydra while the evil Fitz replaces the real one but everyone else doesn't know? That could be the season cliffhanger. Then Jemma would have to go back there next season to rescue him just like he did for her when she was trapped on that other world.

God I hope you're wrong on this one. I mean, end of S1, turmoil for Fitzsimmons, end of S2, turmoil for Fitzsimmons, end of S3 Fitzsimmons gets a break (temporarily). Is the show secretly all about Fitzsimmons and the universe screwwing around with them?

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Old 04-27-2017, 09:54 AM   #13
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

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God I hope you're wrong on this one. I mean, end of S1, turmoil for Fitzsimmons, end of S2, turmoil for Fitzsimmons, end of S3 Fitzsimmons gets a break (temporarily). Is the show secretly all about Fitzsimmons and the universe screwwing around with them?
Well since you've pointed out the pattern now of each season ending with turmoil for the couple, then that's probably likely to happen.

Evil Fitz did say to AIDA something to the effect that he would follow her anywhere or something like that, and she responded that she was hoping he'd say that. That's what made me think that she might replace the real Fitz's mind with framework Fitz while the real Fitz's mind is trapped in the framework.

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The first thing they better do after escaping the framework is

Destroy it

But not until after bringing to life Ward, Trip, & Hope but after that destroy it


Well maybe "Fitz" destroys access to the framework (or the framework itself) pretending that he wants to be rid of this evil thing, when really he's done it to trap good Fitz in there, while Jemma is unaware. Then she'll either have to try to rebuild it again next season or she'll be permanently stuck with evil Fitz and will have to try to reach him so that she can hope to change him into a better man.

That seems like something this series could very well do.

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Old 04-27-2017, 10:30 AM   #14
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

The show needs to stop with the Fitzsimmons turmoil, IMO. It's gotten old and it's so repetitive that people are going to stop caring.

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Old 04-27-2017, 10:57 AM   #15
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

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But this show is not doing that thing anymore where story lines last more than one season & I'd certainly prefer never seeing or hearing the words the framework ever again after this season
But it wouldn't be really continuing a storyline as such, but would be more like the transition from the LMD arc to the Framework arc where there are some common elements, but it will present a new set of problems and issues.

It seems that AIDA is planning to bring framework Fitz with her into the real world from the dialogue in All the Madame's Men.

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Old 04-27-2017, 11:35 AM   #16
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This is the real Fitz though there has been no hints that hes not
That's not the real Fitz's personality. That's the framework Fitz's personality, which shows how he would've developed had he been raised by his father rather than his mother. It's that alternate version of Fitz that it seems AIDA is planning to bring back with her to the real world, because it was that Fitz within the framework that said that he wanted to follow her anywhere and to the real world. She replied that she was hoping he'd say that.

It sounds like she's planning to either bring him back so that he's occupying the real world in addition to real Fitz, or more likely that she's planning to replace the real Fitz's mind and personality with the framework version. But either she'll have to store real Fitz's mind somewhere or destroy it completely. If she stores it somewhere, it might be in the framework, trapping him there. But if it's destroyed, then the real Fitz will be gone, and everyone will have to deal with evil Fitz in future.

It would definitely give the series a reboot of sorts, making one of their former friends and allies now into a big villain. If they bring back framework Ward to the real world as well, that would only serve to highlight Jemma's anguish, because she would've lost Fitz to an evil version of him while having a good version of Ward in place of the evil version of him.

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Old 04-27-2017, 01:36 PM   #17
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

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The first thing they better do after escaping the framework is

Destroy it

But not until after bringing to life Ward, Trip, & Hope but after that destroy it
That would mean destroying everybody in it. all just computer code with the excpt the ones they like. can't see them doing that.

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Old 04-27-2017, 01:38 PM   #18
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

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The first thing they better do after escaping the framework is

Destroy it

But not until after bringing to life Ward, Trip, & Hope but after that destroy it
The problem is that there are probably innocent people living in the Framework - billions if the Framework covers the entire planet, maybe even more if it goes beyond Earth.

Given their behavior, the characters from the "real" world should not assume that those people are not real. For all they (and we) know, they probably are real, they have real lives, they love, suffer, etc. Even if that's not beyond a reasonable doubt, it's enough to make destroying the Framework not an option.

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Old 04-27-2017, 01:41 PM   #19
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

As much as I enjoy Ward being on the sho, I really hope that this isn't used to be bring people back from the dead. Part of what made me stop reading mainstream comics is the fact that death is meaningless. If death is a temporary thing that anybody can come back from, then where is the drama in action scenes? So...you die...big deal...you'll be back. I wouldn't mind if AIDA becomes "real" though.

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Old 04-27-2017, 01:42 PM   #20
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

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No machine runs forever in the long run it will eventually shut down & be destroyed anyway & in the end everyone in it is not real
1. The machine may well be not just a single computer, but many, with backups and all. The system could be kept running for a very long time.
2. It's alien tech, so who knows?
3. They're probably real. Daisy and Jemma seem to have realized that already. Why would they not be real? They have no human brain, but neither does Aida. Does that mean she's not self-aware, not capable of suffering, etc.? I see no reason to think a human brain would be required. And given their behavior, it seems probable that they're real, rather than zombies.

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Old 04-27-2017, 01:44 PM   #21
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

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As much as I enjoy Ward being on the sho, I really hope that this isn't used to be bring people back from the dead. Part of what made me stop reading mainstream comics is the fact that death is meaningless. If death is a temporary thing that anybody can come back from, then where is the drama in action scenes? So...you die...big deal...you'll be back. I wouldn't mind if AIDA becomes "real" though.
But they wouldn't be back. Those copies would be different people. How similar they would be would depend on the amount of info used to make the copies. Framework Ward is considerably different from "Real" World Ward.

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Old 04-27-2017, 01:46 PM   #22
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

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No machine runs forever in the long run it will eventually shut down & be destroyed anyway & in the end everyone in it is not real

except the characters you identified to save from it.

it might get shut down but don't think it will be the agents of shield that do it, major ethical issues if they do.

Ward tripp might travel to real world for some battle and get trapped here if aida shuts the framework down. If ward and tripp were out of the framework and then saw shield shot down the framework then Shield would be their enemies for destroying their world.

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Old 04-27-2017, 01:50 PM   #23
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

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The problem is that there are probably innocent people living in the Framework - billions if the Framework covers the entire planet, maybe even more if it goes beyond Earth.

Given their behavior, the characters from the "real" world should not assume that those people are not real. For all they (and we) know, they probably are real, they have real lives, they love, suffer, etc. Even if that's not beyond a reasonable doubt, it's enough to make destroying the Framework not an option.
There are no real people in the Framework. Because of sci-fi nonsense, if a person in the real world is connected to their avatar in the Framework, and their avatar dies, then they die as well. If a person is not connected to a character in the Framework, then no harm is actually done if a character is killed. It doesn't matter if Pac-Man thinks that he needs to keep eating dots to live, he's not actually alive. It only becomes wrong to "kill" Pac-Man if the person playing the game gets killed as well.

Get out of the Framework...get your friends out...and pull the plug on the darn thing.

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Old 04-27-2017, 01:54 PM   #24
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

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But they wouldn't be back. Those copies would be different people. How similar they would be would depend on the amount of info used to make the copies. Framework Ward is considerably different from "Real" World Ward.
I don't care. I've seen excuses for this garbage from comic fans my entire life and I'm not convinced. If it's Grant Ward played by the same actor then all we REALLY have is Ward rebooted back to before he turned heel in season 1.

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Old 04-27-2017, 02:02 PM   #25
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Default Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

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There are no real people in the Framework. Because of sci-fi nonsense, if a person in the real world is connected to their avatar in the Framework, and their avatar dies, then they die as well. If a person is not connected to a character in the Framework, then no harm is actually done if a character is killed. It doesn't matter if Pac-Man thinks that he needs to keep eating dots to live, he's not actually alive. It only becomes wrong to "kill" Pac-Man if the person playing the game gets killed as well.

Get out of the Framework...get your friends out...and pull the plug on the darn thing.
While I'm willing to accept sci-fi nonsense (usually) when they show us that sci-fi nonsense (i.e., there is good evidence within the story for that, or at least reasons to think the characters have such evidence), this is not what's happening here. The people we see in the Framework are probably all real people. They don't have "Real World" bodies, but they are real. Pac-Man is not alive. But Pac-Man either has no mind, or has a mind simpler than that of a mosquito. Framework people probably have human minds. That makes them real people, and it's wrong to kill them (except in self-defense, etc.).

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