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Old 07-03-2016, 03:08 PM   #51
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Default Re: Perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna

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You think Cersei's ascent to Queen was preposterous but want Gendry - an uneducated bastard with no political connections whatsoever - to be considered for King?
You made quite the jump there, and misrepresented what I said. Gendry is just a tool for the real power brokers.

If you all can accept the show making Jon Snow "King in the North" without much reasoning, or Cersei being named Queen without ANY reasoning to succession or the history of Westeros, or the fact that she blew up the religious center of the show after the High Sparrow spent two seasons telling us about how he really has the many peasants and foot soldiers and not the Great Houses, she blew it up without any reprecussions from those people... then you could accept someone like Baelish or Varys trying to usurp her or create dysfunction in the Crownlands by presenting a bastard of Robert as the real heir. After all, Melisandre knows about him and she's riding south.

The show has completely shot the laws of succession. I don't know how you could defend Jon or Cersei but then say Gendry couldn't be a pawn of the manipulators.

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Old 07-03-2016, 03:10 PM   #52
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Default Re: Perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna

When you think about Westeros (outside of Dorne), not recognizing female leaders, the fact that she blew up the Sept, that she is a criminal, that she is hated by the masses, who exactly made her queen? Qlyburn the disgraced Maester? It is completely preposterous

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Old 07-03-2016, 03:17 PM   #53
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Default Re: Perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna

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It still doesn't make sense to me that Lyanna would consent to marry or run away with Rhaegar and ended up getting her father and brother killed by the Mad King because of it. She shouldn't be this insensitive to her own family's well-being.
She's like Arya. Remember when Arya impulsively attacked Joffrey without thinking about how it may affect her friend the butcher's boy. Characters like that don't think about long term consequences. In the books ned says something along the lines of Lyanna's attitude leading her to an early grave. Seems like a bit of a weird thing to say if your sister was kidnapped.

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Old 07-03-2016, 03:17 PM   #54
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Default Re: Perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna

There's a difference between a bastard who was raised with a noble family, receiving a noble education, and an illiterate blacksmith. How many of the great houses will be willing to follow some nobody who ought to be forging their horseshoes? It's a nonstarter. Jon, BTW, earned his right to be considered KITN. Few people were clamoring for him before he defeated Ramsay.

As far as Cersei goes, she just dropped a medieval nuke on KL, and nobody knows if she can lay hands on more. Yeah, no one's opposing her - yet.

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Old 07-03-2016, 03:34 PM   #55
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Jon Snow is a deserter to the Night's Watch, a bastard, and Sansa Stark is the rightful Warden of the North via Stark ties and as the widow of Ramsay. If you can buy Jon Snow with his Wildling army as King in the North, which came out of nowhere; and you can buy Cersei as Queen which doesn't. make. any. sense. Then why can't someone say bastard Gendry, bastard and peasant, is rightful king? Not that he is king material, or trained to be king, or fit to be king, but just to muddy the waters.

Tyrion is a more likely to sit on the Iron Throne than Cersei since he's a MAN, and being a criminal doesn't matter apparently

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Old 07-03-2016, 06:04 PM   #56
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Default Re: Perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna

Gendry may have sunk for all we know.

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Old 07-03-2016, 06:09 PM   #57
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Default Re: Perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna

Or is just all around steering clear of the great houses and their shenanigans.

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Old 07-03-2016, 07:56 PM   #58
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Default Re: Perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna

Is Gendry really illiterate? I don't remember that ever being mentioned.

If so though, I want him to come back and have a scene with Arya where he homages Wayne's World. "I NEVER LEARNED TO READ!!!"

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Old 07-03-2016, 08:24 PM   #59
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Default Re: Perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna

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Or is just all around steering clear of the great houses and their shenanigans.
After his experiences with the Great Game he ought to run as fast as possible from the Iron Throne.

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Old 07-03-2016, 08:31 PM   #60
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Is Gendry really illiterate? I don't remember that ever being mentioned.

If so though, I want him to come back and have a scene with Arya where he homages Wayne's World. "I NEVER LEARNED TO READ!!!"
Unlikely a commoner would be literate unless his occupation demanded it. He may have been Robert's bastard, but what we see seems to imply he lived an ordinary commoner life (until bad stuff started to happen).

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Old 07-03-2016, 08:48 PM   #61
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Default Re: Perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna

Gendry was never acknowledged as being Robert's bastard son, so his Baratheon blood means virtually nothing.

Jon has at least been acknowledged as a bastard, which won't change even if/when it comes to light that Ned lied about his parentage.

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Old 07-03-2016, 09:09 PM   #62
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Default Re: Perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna

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Is Gendry really illiterate? I don't remember that ever being mentioned.

If so though, I want him to come back and have a scene with Arya where he homages Wayne's World. "I NEVER LEARNED TO READ!!!"
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Unlikely a commoner would be literate unless his occupation demanded it. He may have been Robert's bastard, but what we see seems to imply he lived an ordinary commoner life (until bad stuff started to happen).
Yeah, it's safe to assume that illiteracy is the default setting where the low-born are concerned.

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Old 07-03-2016, 09:26 PM   #63
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Default Re: Perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna

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Jon Snow is a deserter to the Night's Watch, a bastard, and Sansa Stark is the rightful Warden of the North via Stark ties and as the widow of Ramsay. If you can buy Jon Snow with his Wildling army as King in the North, which came out of nowhere; and you can buy Cersei as Queen which doesn't. make. any. sense. Then why can't someone say bastard Gendry, bastard and peasant, is rightful king? Not that he is king material, or trained to be king, or fit to be king, but just to muddy the waters.

Tyrion is a more likely to sit on the Iron Throne than Cersei since he's a MAN, and being a criminal doesn't matter apparently
Jon Snow is not a deserter. Have you read the vow?

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Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.
The oath doesn't say "It shall not end until my permanent death." It just says the person's watch ends when he dies. Jon died. His oath is fulfilled. His watch ended. He was free to leave.

Of course, Westeros will have skeptics and people that haven't heard about him dying and being resurrected and they will consider him a deserter, but that doesn't change the fact that he fulfilled his oath. And no reasonable person can really argue that he isn't still doing more for Westeros than 99% of the people on that God forsaken continent. His oath may be fulfilled and he may have left the Wall but he is still very much fighting for the life of Westeros and it's people. Jon is still a man of the Watch in spirit.

Plus, these are bizarre unusual times they are living in. Wildlings are living peacefully south of the Wall, the Watch is a wreck due to conspiracy and fighting, and the White Walkers and a devastating winter is coming. The Crows don't really have the luxury of staying at the Wall by themselves while everything South of the Wall goes to **** and while the Lord's south of the Wall fight their petty wars. And they dont have the numbers by themselves to fight what is coming. Someone had to go South and start preparations for the fight that is coming. Had Jon had stayed at the Wall and let the Boltons keep Winterfell and let the North remain sundered Westeros would have stood even less chance against the White Walkers. Jon's actions and him going South and defeating the Boltons was the only logical strategic move.

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Old 07-03-2016, 09:32 PM   #64
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Jon Snow is a deserter to the Night's Watch, a bastard, and Sansa Stark is the rightful Warden of the North via Stark ties and as the widow of Ramsay. If you can buy Jon Snow with his Wildling army as King in the North, which came out of nowhere; and you can buy Cersei as Queen which doesn't. make. any. sense. Then why can't someone say bastard Gendry, bastard and peasant, is rightful king? Not that he is king material, or trained to be king, or fit to be king, but just to muddy the waters.

Tyrion is a more likely to sit on the Iron Throne than Cersei since he's a MAN, and being a criminal doesn't matter apparently
Jon may not be a bastard though and he isn't really isn't a deserter since he did die after all. Cersei sitting on the throne makes sense. Who is going to stop her? A lot of people seem to forget about ruling by right of conquest. She basically took the throne by force. She has the Lannister army backing her. There is no one who can really oppose her yet.


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Old 07-03-2016, 09:50 PM   #65
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Jon may not be a bastard though and he isn't really isn't a deserter since he did die after all. Cersei sitting on the throne makes sense. Who is going to stop her?
The better question is who would support her? The last two seasons have been spent showing how few friends she has. Qlyburn the false maester and an undead freak. It's a stretch to think she could just take her seat on the Iron Throne. It'd be more likely that chaos and a post vacuum would result. Especially since she is a woman with no claim whatsoever, she's a criminal, and she has no credibility.

As for Jon Snow, you could make a technical argument that his watch ended because he died for a day. The argument could be made that you are a part of the Night's Watch until you can no longer serve, which in the oath's meaning is death. It could be understood to mean that you serve until you are no longer living. Jon is living, and from a certain point of view he's a deserter. I think most Northerners would view him as such. Jon left on an extraordinary loophole

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Old 07-03-2016, 09:56 PM   #66
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Jon Snow is not a deserter. Have you read the vow?



The oath doesn't say "It shall not end until my permanent death." It just says the person's watch ends when he dies. Jon died. His oath is fulfilled. His watch ended. He was free to leave.

Of course, Westeros will have skeptics and people that haven't heard about him dying and being resurrected and they will consider him a deserter, but that doesn't change the fact that he fulfilled his oath. And no reasonable person can really argue that he isn't still doing more for Westeros than 99% of the people on that God forsaken continent. His oath may be fulfilled and he may have left the Wall but he is still very much fighting for the life of Westeros and it's people. Jon is still a man of the Watch in spirit.

Plus, these are bizarre unusual times they are living in. Wildlings are living peacefully south of the Wall, the Watch is a wreck due to conspiracy and fighting, and the White Walkers and a devastating winter is coming. The Crows don't really have the luxury of staying at the Wall by themselves while everything South of the Wall goes to **** and while the Lord's south of the Wall fight their petty wars. And they dont have the numbers by themselves to fight what is coming. Someone had to go South and start preparations for the fight that is coming. Had Jon had stayed at the Wall and let the Boltons keep Winterfell and let the North remain sundered Westeros would have stood even less chance against the White Walkers. Jon's actions and him going South and defeating the Boltons was the only logical strategic move.
I'm not saying Jon Snow is a bad guy. You're making an emotional argument for him. In my view he's an oathbreaker, which isn't always the wrong path. Jaime is an oathbreaker, and he's had his balls busted for two decades. According to him though, he saved the city. You're rationalizing his oathbreaking the way Jaime does his own.

I'm sure Jon is about to go north and repopulate the abandoned castles along the wall. But he's still an oathbreaker, and if he were anyone else Ned Stark would take his head

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Old 07-03-2016, 09:59 PM   #67
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Oaths only matter so much. And they can be rather convenient. Jaime betrayed his oath, and although he gets a lot of snide remarks, his life goes on. An oath only matters as long as the institution matters. If Jon goes on to save the world from the walking dead, no one will give a damn about him breaking the oath. It'll be gossip.

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Old 07-03-2016, 10:04 PM   #68
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Well I do want to know why none of the northern lords have questioned Jon as to why he isn't at the wall but given the last episode, it seems like they believe that the white walkers are coming. Bigger things to worry about I guess than one dude leaving the nights watch that only consists of like 40-50 people at this point.

As far as cersei goes, she is cersei baratheon. I wonder who would be the rightful ruler at this point considering all her children are dead and all the male baratheons are dead.

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Old 07-03-2016, 10:06 PM   #69
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Well I do want to know why none of the northern lords have questioned Jon as to why he isn't at the wall but given the last episode, it seems like they believe that the white walkers are coming. Bigger things to worry about I guess than one dude leaving the nights watch that only consists of like 40-50 people at this point.
I imagine they assume that he cared more about saving his family than a fraternal order dedicated to guarding a wall.

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Old 07-03-2016, 10:08 PM   #70
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This started because people were acting like Gendry being presented as a potential, rightful heir to the Iron Throne was unthinkable, yet want to defend bastard, deserter, wildling bringer Jon Snow as King in the North with the Knights of the Vale cheering along(!); and Cersei as queen which makes zero sense. I can kind of wrap my head around Jon since he's a war hero and the north is decimated looking for a strong leader, but Cersei doesn't compute on any level

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Old 07-03-2016, 10:13 PM   #71
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The show just established how much a southern Lord like Randyll Tarly hates wildlings, along with Lord Umber, and now all the Northern lords who should hate them the most just love em. And none of them question white walkers when most think them an ancient myth? It's a stretch.

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Old 07-03-2016, 10:17 PM   #72
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Well based on things they've done and accomplished at this point, Jon being chosen as a leader is definitely more understandable than Gendry at this point. Having Sansa there supporting him helps too.

Maybe they realized they were wrong about the wildlings. They fought beside them and saw that they are just people.

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Old 07-03-2016, 10:24 PM   #73
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In my view he's an oathbreaker
And your view is objectively wrong.

Jon's oath to the Night's Watch ended with his death. The fact that he's now alive again doesn't change that immutable reality.

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Old 07-03-2016, 10:26 PM   #74
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All I'm saying is someone like Varys could use a little soft power in pushing Gendry in the Crownlands and especially Storm's End to weaken Cersei from the inside before mobilizing. If Gendry is given the right backers, he's more understandable as King than Jon is IMO given the succession mess in Kings Landing.

I think that's a rosy picture of how these guys view Wildings. History is full of slaves fighting wars with their masters and then getting sent right back to slavehood after the war. These people hate Wildlings.

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Old 07-03-2016, 10:32 PM   #75
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And your view is objectively wrong.

Jon's oath to the Night's Watch ended with his death. The fact that he's now alive again doesn't change that immutable reality.
He abandoned his lifelong duty on the wall. I can understand your reading of it, but it's a loophole. It's a difference of interpretation.

If something were to happen to me, and let's say I'm clinically dead for a minute or two before being revived, does that mean I'm no longer married to my wife? Have I fulfilled my vows to her?

Either way, it is immaterial because none of the northern lords would actually believe Jon Snow was risen from the dead. To them he should just be a deserter.

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