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Old 06-14-2013, 07:55 PM   #1
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Default How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

I'm amazed I've not seen an independent thread on this. Considering the levels of rage over the lack of red undies, the fact of Superman - the most boyscout and law-abiding of all heroes -
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
breaking the "one rule" and killing Zod...


I was shocked as hell to see that happen. Supes has always been the least likely character to
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
kill his enemy.

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Old 06-14-2013, 08:01 PM   #2
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

Just going to reiterate this here.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
In the comics, Superman killed Zod. And afterward, he was riddled with guilt.

Now I can't say for sure that the scene in the movie is a direct nod to that, but there's a good chance that it was, given the way it played out, and Superman's very powerful, emotional reaction to what he had just done.

It's also important to note that we saw Reeve's Superman kill Zod too, or at least it sure seemed that way. And there, it wasn't even necessary.

So... just my opinion, but I have no problem with it. He had to do it to save lives. And it's not out of character for Superman, at least not the John Byrne version, which was canon for 20 years or so. Some people are going to hate it, but I wasn't one of them.


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Old 06-15-2013, 11:12 AM   #3
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowsdower! View Post
Just going to reiterate this here.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
In the comics, Superman killed Zod. And afterward, he was riddled with guilt.

Now I can't say for sure that the scene in the movie is a direct nod to that, but there's a good chance that it was, given the way it played out, and Superman's very powerful, emotional reaction to what he had just done.

It's also important to note that we saw Reeve's Superman kill Zod too, or at least it sure seemed that way. And there, it wasn't even necessary.

So... just my opinion, but I have no problem with it. He had to do it to save lives. And it's not out of character for Superman, at least not the John Byrne version, which was canon for 20 years or so. Some people are going to hate it, but I wasn't one of them.

This. I didn't have a problem with it. In fact, I felt it was played pitch perfect in the film. Supes clearly was anguished over what he had to do.

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Old 06-14-2013, 08:51 PM   #4
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

This is what I posted in another thread:

Quote:
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Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
I refuse to believe that Superman actually killed Zod. My three main theories are 1.) Zod isn't dead. His eyes were still glowing and after that one scene, Superman seems normal, if not outright happy. Definitely not the way he would act if he killed someone. 2.)Zod killed himself. By blasting the wall with heat vision, his powers, including invulnerability, hadn't yet fully developed, and the force of the blast snapped his neck or 3.) Zod was actually sent to the Phantom Zone with the others, and that last fight scene was a hallucination from that thingy on Zod's ship that let him look into Lois and Superman's minds. Since some Kryptonian tech is bound to have been left over, no doubt so our favorite bald evil billionaire can use it in the sequel, why not that piece?


I stand by my belief that Superman does not kill.

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Old 06-14-2013, 09:03 PM   #5
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

I think the act was fine. It made sense in context and it was a great "reason" so to speak for him to develop his "rule."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowsdower! View Post
Just going to reiterate this here.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
In the comics, Superman killed Zod. And afterward, he was riddled with guilt.

Now I can't say for sure that the scene in the movie is a direct nod to that, but there's a good chance that it was, given the way it played out, and Superman's very powerful, emotional reaction to what he had just done.

It's also important to note that we saw Reeve's Superman kill Zod too, or at least it sure seemed that way. And there, it wasn't even necessary.

So... just my opinion, but I have no problem with it. He had to do it to save lives. And it's not out of character for Superman, at least not the John Byrne version, which was canon for 20 years or so. Some people are going to hate it, but I wasn't one of them.

This is a great point. Thanks for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Man of Steel View Post
This is what I posted in another thread:

It sounds like you are have a pretty severe case of denial my friend.

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Old 06-14-2013, 09:49 PM   #6
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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It sounds like you are have a pretty severe case of denial my friend.
Probably.

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Old 06-15-2013, 11:48 AM   #7
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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Originally Posted by Man of Steel View Post
This is what I posted in another thread:


Quote:
Originally Posted by pr0xyt0xin View Post
I think the act was fine. It made sense in context and it was a great "reason" so to speak for him to develop his "rule."



This is a great point. Thanks for that.




It sounds like you are have a pretty severe case of denial my friend.
yup

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Old 06-14-2013, 11:21 PM   #8
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Man of Steel View Post
This is what I posted in another thread:
...Are you being facetious?

And in regards to the moment, I thought it was fine. It showed that he was clearly effected by the action, and it didn't handle it lightly.

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Old 06-16-2013, 05:40 PM   #9
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Man of Steel View Post
This is what I posted in another thread:
What exactly makes you think Supes was happy? Was it dropping to his knees and screaming? Or was it crumbling into Lois' arms in obvious grief?

I have no problem with the Zod scene. Zod didn't give him a choice. I did, however, think that most of the fighting up to that point was pretty reckless on Supes' part. Smashing through buildings and gas stations without any regard for human life - that's more troubling from a moral perspective. But Zod? Didn't bother me one bit.

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Old 06-16-2013, 09:34 PM   #10
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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This is what I posted in another thread:
Perfect examples of how far fanboys reach with extremely odd explanations.

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Old 06-14-2013, 09:11 PM   #11
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

Good god, I agree with pr0xyt0xin.

Especially on the whole "this is his motivation" deal. Especially because Planet Clark hadn't been created yet, so he has the motivation to reconnect with his human side, and it could lead to a sort of self-imposed 12 Labors of Hercules in a sequel.

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Old 06-14-2013, 11:29 PM   #12
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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Good god, I agree with pr0xyt0xin.

Especially on the whole "this is his motivation" deal. Especially because Planet Clark hadn't been created yet, so he has the motivation to reconnect with his human side, and it could lead to a sort of self-imposed 12 Labors of Hercules in a sequel.
Oh my golly idk who you are. Or why it's shocking that you agree with me.

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Old 06-14-2013, 09:12 PM   #13
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

I didn't see such a "rule" discussed at any point in this film. This Superman never said anything about having a rule against doing what he did. However, I could easily see how his actions in this film and the fallout from them could lead to him developing such a rule in future sequels.

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Old 06-14-2013, 09:35 PM   #14
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

I think they handled it just fine...and there was an emotional gravity for what he did. It's not like they played it light.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
This Superman is someone who very much values human life. So if there's anything he can do to spare or save someone within his reach, he's going to do it. As they say...desperate times call for desperate measures. He did what he had to do, but he certainly felt sickened by it. Superman is the essence of morality...and when someone threatens people we hold dear, we'll do ANYTHING to prevent those people from being harmed, including ending another person's life.

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Old 06-14-2013, 09:47 PM   #15
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

Quote:
Originally Posted by DorkyFresh View Post
I think they handled it just fine...and there was an emotional gravity for what he did. It's not like they played it light.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
This Superman is someone who very much values human life. So if there's anything he can do to spare or save someone within his reach, he's going to do it. As they say...desperate times call for desperate measures. He did what he had to do, but he certainly felt sickened by it. Superman is the essence of morality...and when someone threatens people we hold dear, we'll do ANYTHING to prevent those people from being harmed, including ending another person's life.
And Reeve's Superman and Kidder's Lois each combined to kill Zod, Ursa and Non in Superman II. HERE, this scene was 1000% more potent. Cavil sells it. It's a beautiful scene. This moment, and the Tornado scene got to me the most.

For a "soulless" movie -- it certainly was beautiful and touching in many respects.

-R

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Old 06-14-2013, 09:52 PM   #16
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

I did find it ironic how even batman as dark as he was depicted in the nolan series never came to a point where he actually killed anyone with own hands directly.

I have to feel that was some sort of statement but i'm not sure from whom? Snyder? Nolan? Goyer?

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Old 06-16-2013, 05:26 PM   #17
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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I did find it ironic how even batman as dark as he was depicted in the nolan series never came to a point where he actually killed anyone with own hands directly.

I have to feel that was some sort of statement but i'm not sure from whom? Snyder? Nolan? Goyer?

I have to agree with this. A point is made in those Batman films that regardless he wouldn't kill. The line he says to Ras Al gul, "I won't kill you but I don't have to save you" speaks volumes about their "take" on Batman. It's in the movie for a reason. So yeah I get from an "in story" perspective that it makes sense why he does what he does. But from a writing stand point...it really doesn't. Unless there is some serious follow-up in the next film about guilt and remorse etc then it just seemed unnecessary to specifically write Superman into a corner where he is forced to kill...then in the follow up scenes he seems back to his normal self Found that odd.

As far as writing goes, why not just have Zod sucked back into the Zone with the rest of them? Did people really find it so much more satisfiying to see Superman
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
snap his neck with his bear hands than simply have him disappear with rest of his crew
? Again we're not talking "in story logic" but writing here. For me it just felt like the wanted people to see just how bad@$$ Superman can be. "OOooo he
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
broke that dude's neck
" i even had people cheer in the audience I was in. Give me a break people.

You essentially have a guy who's never been in war, in fights, and certainly never killed anyone or anything. Then he has to
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
snap someone's neck
. That had better haunt him till the day he dies. I think a line from the film unforgiven says it best

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Old 06-16-2013, 05:36 PM   #18
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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Originally Posted by Daybreak_st View Post
I have to agree with this. A point is made in those Batman films that regardless he wouldn't kill. The line he says to Ras Al gul, "I won't kill you but I don't have to save you" speaks volumes about their "take" on Batman. It's in the movie for a reason. So yeah I get from an "in story" perspective that it makes sense why he does what he does. But from a writing stand point...it really doesn't. Unless there is some serious follow-up in the next film about guilt and remorse etc then it just seemed unnecessary to specifically write Superman into a corner where he is forced to kill...then in the follow up scenes he seems back to his normal self Found that odd.

As far as writing goes, why not just have Zod sucked back into the Zone with the rest of them? Did people really find it so much more satisfiying to see Superman
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
snap his neck with his bear hands than simply have him disappear with rest of his crew
? Again we're not talking "in story logic" but writing here. For me it just felt like the wanted people to see just how bad@$$ Superman can be. "OOooo he
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
broke that dude's neck
" i even had people cheer in the audience I was in. Give me a break people.

You essentially have a guy who's never been in war, in fights, and certainly never killed anyone or anything. Then he has to
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
snap someone's neck
. That had better haunt him till the day he dies. I think a line from the film unforgiven says it best
I don't think killing Zod should make him spend much time brooding, but a catalyst for him to not do it again. If it's ever addressed, he should say that he's moved on. Though if he spares a supervillain's life, he should say something like "it's different this time", or something like it.

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Old 06-14-2013, 09:56 PM   #19
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

Superman has killed a few times at least in the comics...and every time it was a mistake. I GUESS if they do it like the comics and he is riddled with guilt and becomes all angsty, then I suppose that is better...but do I really want a Superman sequel to revolve around his inner turmoil, sadness and regret?? It's freaking SUPERMAN!

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Old 06-14-2013, 10:30 PM   #20
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

I've been someone who's defended the fact that yes, Superman has killed in the past but only when there is absolutely no other options available to him.

In Man Of Steel we have an in-experienced Superman who really has no clue as to what he is capable of (he learned to fly what? A few weeks before Zod shows up?), so in a way you could see it from that stand point that he felt he had no other choice.

However, again as someone who's defended that aspect, as someone who probably would have yelled "just kill him already".....I have to say.....actually "SEEING IT HAPPEN"......never in a million years would I have believed DC/WB would have the balls to do that in a live action movie.

It really all comes down again to the fact that he is a in-experienced Superman, he has to learn his rules somehow and I think this is where he will learn the "Never Kill" rule, you can see its eating at him, he cant believe what he's done, and he wont want to feel like that ever again.

If we ever see this lead up into a Superman vs. DOOMSDAY fight, I bet this moment will come back to haunt him and play a big factor into that fight.

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Old 06-14-2013, 10:33 PM   #21
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

I honestly feel that they should have had Zod kill that family or one of them for that scene to have a harder impact.

THEN the scream would have made more sense as a primal scream of I'M COMPLETELY ALONE NOW, I DIDN'T WANT TO KILL THE LAST OF MY KIND.

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Old 06-15-2013, 11:05 AM   #22
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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I honestly feel that they should have had Zod kill that family or one of them for that scene to have a harder impact.

THEN the scream would have made more sense as a primal scream of I'M COMPLETELY ALONE NOW, I DIDN'T WANT TO KILL THE LAST OF MY KIND.
I may be wrong but, I'm pretty sure he did. You never see them again. All you see is the black smoke at the edge of the screen. They left it a bit ambiguous but, I think if they had lived, we would have seen them thanking Superman for saving them.

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Old 06-14-2013, 10:34 PM   #23
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

I was worried about this moment going into the movie, but thought it was amazingly well executed, Cavill really made you feel that despite having no choice it was a hard decision to make, and his reaction to having killed Zod sold the moment to me, I actually think this could be viewed as the moment where Superman's views on how precious life is come to fruition.

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Old 06-14-2013, 10:54 PM   #24
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

Okay if your're in this thread, then you deserve to be spoiled.

I think Superman killed Zod. He felt bad about it, but at the end of the day Zod killed tons of people with his terraforming machine.

There is some misconception that Superman will shut down and put up the cape if he kills. Superman has killed plenty of people when he's destroyed machines piloted by humans or aliens. He tries not to but at some point it's inevitable.


I don't think Zod needed to kill the family. The point was that he isn't a killer and was forced to make the choice. He hasn't just had to fight hard but also take a life in a very personal way after begging.

Also Clark knows he isn't the last of his kind. He did just open up the Phantom Zone.

I though it was a great conclusion to the fight.

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Old 06-14-2013, 11:07 PM   #25
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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I don't think Zod needed to kill the family. The point was that he isn't a killer and was forced to make the choice. He hasn't just had to fight hard but also take a life in a very personal way after begging.

Also Clark knows he isn't the last of his kind. He did just open up the Phantom Zone.

I though it was a great conclusion to the fight.
no, he was a killer. Did you forget what happened on Krypton?

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