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Old 06-09-2017, 11:43 PM   #51
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Default Re: NBA Thread of 2016/2017: Grand Finale...again - Part 1

Couple observations:

1) This game, particularly the first half, was one of the worst officiated games I've ever seen. And there's been a lot. The conspiracy theorists can chill though, I think people forget refs are human too. But clearly, they were off their game.

2) Who wasn't off their game though, Uncle Drew. That guy might be the best finisher I've ever seen. Either hand, twirling, falling, spinning, off glass, up high, anyone possible. And he's absolutely cold blooded. That said, he's still working entirely too hard to score. They had him in some pick and roll stuff that worked, but I can't see him being able to keep this up that efficiently.

3) Kevin Love sighting. A more physical Kevin Love who, while still doing most of his damage from distance, was pinning down in the paint and causing things to happen. Along with Tristan finally imposing himself, Golden State most certainly needs to close this out Sunday. Or there will be a Game 7...

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Old 06-10-2017, 12:28 AM   #52
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Default Re: NBA Thread of 2016/2017: Grand Finale...again - Part 1

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Originally Posted by JeetKuneDo View Post
That's not the claim though. The claim is that Wade and Bosh "showed up" and played well and that's not what happened. The same thing happened to them that happened to Lebron, Kobe, Kevin Durant, Westbrook, and Harden that year. That's how team basketball works. The Mavs were the better team and made everyone look like they "choked".
Guess that's our fundamental difference, I truly believe the LeBron we've seen the past three Finals would have not allowed himself to be neutralized that way. And if he doesn't, I don't believe Dallas wins.

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That's what some believe. But it's happened to all of them if you go watch the times they lose in the playoffs. Go try it with any of them. MJ fans really think he "always showed up and was always the best player" but that's not true. In game 6 of the 1989 Pistons vs Bulls series he was 0-5 the last 5 minutes of a close game, scored just 2 points, and didn't take a shot in the last 3 minutes of the game. If Lebron did that in an elimination game, MJ fans would roast him. OH...and Isiah Thomas was the best player on the floor in crunch time too.

I know Kobe is your favorite....we can dig into his history if you don't believe how this works with all players. They all have points in their career when they are learning or have yet to improve a part of their game and the opposing team takes advantage. Lebron didn't have the advantage of great coaches in his career so he had to learn it all himself as he went.
This is the thing though, Jordan already had a reputation of being somewhat clutch already. He hit one of the biggest shots in Collegiate history, there was no question that more often than not, he'd show aggressiveness. Doesn't mean it happened every time, but we saw it enough to know it was there.

LeBron, outside of the Detroit game when he went bonkers, never showed that assertiveness. I actually think that Detroit game made expectations worse, because we knew, when he made his mind up to go to the rim, that he was unstoppable. To this day, that Detroit defense doesn't get mentioned nearly enough for how stout and smart they were. He obliterated them with ease. So when your only flash of aggressiveness happens to be that game, fans and media are going to wonder why you're not attempting to do that whenever the game calls for it.

And also, like I said before, LeBron just wasn't comfortable shooting the ball. Some guys like him, Westbrook, Butler, Wade, they're all great athletes but lack that natural touch or finesse for the game players like Durant or Harden have. It's just a certain feel some guys have and others don't. They have to work at those things, and for James, his touch comes and goes, so I understand why he doesn't always have the confidence in shooting the ball. That doesn't alleviate him from doing what he does best though, no matter how taxing.

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....how tall is KD really? I hear commentators on the radio say he is 6'11" all the time but he is listed as 6'9" online. I would think the commentators would know best since they are the ones who stand next to him and can compare him to other players. What is the real answer? If he's 6'11" I'm really impressed. That's unguardable.
Lol, yeah, I remember this was another thing we went round and round on. He's clearly at least 2 inches taller than LeBron. Pachulia, who has an enormous noggin, looks to be about the same shoulder height as KD, and plenty of guys listed at 6'9" appear shorter too, Durant is definitely taller than say, Paul George. And he slouches. He himself says he's 6'11", but didn't want to be listed as such because he didn't want to be recognized as a PF.

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Old 06-10-2017, 12:34 AM   #53
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Default Re: NBA Thread of 2016/2017: Grand Finale...again - Part 1

Glad we won a game, lol. I think this ends game 5, but if it doesn't, then uh oh

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Old 06-10-2017, 12:37 AM   #54
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Default Re: NBA Thread of 2016/2017: Grand Finale...again - Part 1

If this isn't over Monday I'll be VERY concerned.

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Old 06-10-2017, 12:38 AM   #55
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Default Re: NBA Thread of 2016/2017: Grand Finale...again - Part 1

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Glad we won a game, lol. I think this ends game 5, but if it doesn't, then uh oh
LeBron getting the slightest scent of blood in the water is scary... i think its over monday too, but GS better come out guns blazing and not throwing up so many bricks.

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Old 06-10-2017, 02:44 PM   #56
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Default Re: NBA Thread of 2016/2017: Grand Finale...again - Part 1

Isn't it amazing how much quieter it is when Cavs win? Lol.

Hoping against all hope we steal game 5!

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Old 06-10-2017, 05:46 PM   #57
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Default Re: NBA Thread of 2016/2017: Grand Finale...again - Part 1

now that a sweep isn't happening, im all for 7 games lol

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Old 06-10-2017, 10:00 PM   #58
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Default Re: NBA Thread of 2016/2017: Grand Finale...again - Part 1

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Guess that's our fundamental difference, I truly believe the LeBron we've seen the past three Finals would have not allowed himself to be neutralized that way. And if he doesn't, I don't believe Dallas wins.
Which I find offensive as a Mavs fan. The whole world was rooting for them to win, but as soon as they did, the agenda changed to painting them as an inferior team the Heat had no business losing to.

Which of course requires ignoring everything the Mavs did in that playoff run. Beating the Heat wasn't even the most impressive thing they did....sweeping the two time defending champs was. It didn't matter how any star player tried, they couldn't come up big against the Mavs that year. The Mavs beat everyone....they didn't just get lucky that everyone decided to choke the same year.
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This is the thing though, Jordan already had a reputation of being somewhat clutch already. He hit one of the biggest shots in Collegiate history, there was no question that more often than not, he'd show aggressiveness. Doesn't mean it happened every time, but we saw it enough to know it was there.

LeBron, outside of the Detroit game when he went bonkers, never showed that assertiveness. I actually think that Detroit game made expectations worse, because we knew, when he made his mind up to go to the rim, that he was unstoppable. To this day, that Detroit defense doesn't get mentioned nearly enough for how stout and smart they were. He obliterated them with ease. So when your only flash of aggressiveness happens to be that game, fans and media are going to wonder why you're not attempting to do that whenever the game calls for it.

And also, like I said before, LeBron just wasn't comfortable shooting the ball. Some guys like him, Westbrook, Butler, Wade, they're all great athletes but lack that natural touch or finesse for the game players like Durant or Harden have. It's just a certain feel some guys have and others don't. They have to work at those things, and for James, his touch comes and goes, so I understand why he doesn't always have the confidence in shooting the ball. That doesn't alleviate him from doing what he does best though, no matter how taxing.
There is the problem with the environment around the sport today. Most fans are now operating under the belief that a player can only be great if they play hero ball. Scoring points is the only thing that matters. I hate what this has done to the sport. It of course comes from the MJ hero worship that every player has to play the way he did or he is flawed. Passing? That's now seen as cowardly or something. Team play can't be a good thing. Unselfish play is a character flaw. Amazing....all the good that Magic and Bird brought into the league was washed away by the MJ hype machine.

The worst part is that view of how MJ played didn't actually exist. He passed to teammates all the time. John Paxson carried the team to their first title in 91 by dominating the 4th quarter of game 5. The game was close the whole way until Paxson broke it open at the end. No one remembers that now. If Lebron did that he would of course be accused of being afraid to shoot or that his teammate "rescued" him or something equally absurd.

Magic didn't play that way either. The whole thing is just imaginary BS that fans have invented in their minds. Watch it yourself and see what it was REALLY like. MJ scored 6 points in the 4th quarter when it mattered...but only 2 in the last 4 minutes and took no shots in the last 2 minutes. This was an extremely close game usually just a 2 point lead or tied.

John Paxson meanwhile scored 8 points in the last 4 minutes and was player of the game. I guess MJ was a "coward" for passing to Paxson so much. Lebron tried to do the same thing in game 3 but he didn't have a Paxson...Korver missed his shot. Of course Lebron would still be painted as "coward" if Korver had hit it.

What did Magic do? He was a "coward" by today's absurd standard of what "great" is supposed to be. Magic only attempted 2 shots in the entire 4th quarter...and those were on the same play when he rebounded a missed shot and tried to put it back. He even was "afraid to shoot" when MJ was guarding him. Magic backed MJ down time and again and got around him with ease but elected to pass each time.

Here is reality and it doesn't match the fantasy version some have invented. If you judge MJ and Magic by the same standard as Lebron, they are cowards who were afraid to take the big shot and weren't really trying. Go ahead and watch...the 4th quarter starts at 1:03:32



Ugh....hero ball is a scourge on the sport and should be mocked often. Thank you GS for bringing back team basketball. Another thing about that game is watching how MJ didn't have to play 100% on every play. When you've got a great team, you don't have to do everything and can save energy.

That's one thing GS might bring back. That is a team of guys who don't care about getting praise and points. They are the opposite of Paul George with his "I should always take the last shot" statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc
Lol, yeah, I remember this was another thing we went round and round on. He's clearly at least 2 inches taller than LeBron. Pachulia, who has an enormous noggin, looks to be about the same shoulder height as KD, and plenty of guys listed at 6'9" appear shorter too, Durant is definitely taller than say, Paul George. And he slouches. He himself says he's 6'11", but didn't want to be listed as such because he didn't want to be recognized as a PF.
I was trying to judge his height when Lebron and he was arguing at one point. He does seem taller by a couple of inches but it was hard to tell for sure.

Oh yeah...Pachulia's head is massive! He really would look scary in a dark alley.

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Old 06-10-2017, 10:04 PM   #59
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Default Re: NBA Thread of 2016/2017: Grand Finale...again - Part 1

GS better win on Monday, or it's very likely going to go to 7.

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Old 06-11-2017, 11:39 AM   #60
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Glad we won a game, lol. I think this ends game 5, but if it doesn't, then uh oh
I also think it ends on Monday, but this series now has that feel much like last season, only they were down 3-0 this season compared to 2-1 last year. With Golden State winning their first 15 playoff games, it would be the story of the year if they lost their last 4. It almost feels like it's one of those things that's destined to happen in sports.

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Old 06-11-2017, 02:43 PM   #61
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Default Re: NBA Thread of 2016/2017: Grand Finale...again - Part 1

IF the Cavs win Monday, at least it will be a series (though GS still wins). I think a combination of 2 things happened. First and foremost, the Cavs had one of those once in a lifetime shooting performances and second, the refs were just off their game. I think on some level, the refs know the series should not be a sweep. I also think they get influenced by the crowd. GS HAS to have a bad game on Monday for this thing to move forward.

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Old 06-11-2017, 02:46 PM   #62
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I also think it ends on Monday, but this series now has that feel much like last season, only they were down 3-0 this season compared to 2-1 last year. With Golden State winning their first 15 playoff games, it would be the story of the year if they lost their last 4. It almost feels like it's one of those things that's destined to happen in sports.
Other than the 3-1 lead, it doesn't feel anything like it to me. GS was dealing with Green being out and injuries. They also didn't have KD. That's enough to make it feel very different to me.

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Old 06-12-2017, 06:44 AM   #63
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There is the problem with the environment around the sport today. Most fans are now operating under the belief that a player can only be great if they play hero ball. Scoring points is the only thing that matters. I hate what this has done to the sport. It of course comes from the MJ hero worship that every player has to play the way he did or he is flawed. Passing? That's now seen as cowardly or something. Team play can't be a good thing. Unselfish play is a character flaw. Amazing....all the good that Magic and Bird brought into the league was washed away by the MJ hype machine.
I have a similar disdain for the term "hero ball" and all of it's connotations. There's absolutely nothing wrong with giving a guy the ball who's a tremendous one-on-one player to score tough points. Kyrie, for example, thrives doing that, that's his game, taking that away from him would be like taking the 3 away from Steph.

Speaking of which, even with as much as the Warriors run plays and have off ball motion, Curry (and to a smaller extent, KD) takes a ton of "bad" shots. A ton. Launching from almost half court with bigger guys draped on you have never been a good shot for anybody. He just hits them at a remarkable rate so people like you, who hate isolation, give him a pass. But it's also why, when he's off, he looks just as bad as anyone else you would criticize for "hero ball." Maybe worse.

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The worst part is that view of how MJ played didn't actually exist. He passed to teammates all the time. John Paxson carried the team to their first title in 91 by dominating the 4th quarter of game 5. The game was close the whole way until Paxson broke it open at the end. No one remembers that now. If Lebron did that he would of course be accused of being afraid to shoot or that his teammate "rescued" him or something equally absurd.

Magic didn't play that way either. The whole thing is just imaginary BS that fans have invented in their minds.
The fact that you can pinpoint certain games MJ didn't dominate the ball is telling, because it didn't happen nearly as much as LeBron shying away from the ball when his team needed him the most. But it's also besides the point, at least for me.

Something that always has bothered me about LeBron is the fact that he's never just played the Point position to begin with. His Basketball gift, besides his physique, is his passing. He dominates the ball and makes most of the decisions as it is, especially when he was younger. Moving him to the point not only would have solved some issues for some of his teams in the past, but it also changes expectations. Pinpointing when Magic played aggressively or not belies the fact that Magic's number one priority as a PG of the 80's was running the offense, not scoring.

This is also LeBron's mindset, on top of the fact that he's simply not a great one-on-one player, which he readily admits.

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Ugh....hero ball is a scourge on the sport and should be mocked often. Thank you GS for bringing back team basketball. Another thing about that game is watching how MJ didn't have to play 100% on every play. When you've got a great team, you don't have to do everything and can save energy.
Well, MJ also never drew the toughest defensive assignment as people like to imagine, so he could afford to not play 100% every play. But as you speak of the Warriors and their style of play, just watch how many bad shots they still take tonight. Guaranteed Steph, Klay & Durant will pull up over good, outstretched, hand in the face defense multiple times when they should pass the ball.

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Old 06-12-2017, 07:33 AM   #64
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Can the Cavs do the impossible?

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Old 06-12-2017, 11:34 AM   #65
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If they win tonight, yes they can.

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Old 06-12-2017, 11:45 AM   #66
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Six years ago today:


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Old 06-12-2017, 01:21 PM   #67
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Default Re: NBA Thread of 2016/2017: Grand Finale...again - Part 1

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I have a similar disdain for the term "hero ball" and all of it's connotations. There's absolutely nothing wrong with giving a guy the ball who's a tremendous one-on-one player to score tough points. Kyrie, for example, thrives doing that, that's his game, taking that away from him would be like taking the 3 away from Steph.
The difference there is coaching. One team has the guy in one of the best motion offenses I've ever seen, the other plays in an offense that relies on isolation offense (i.e. hero ball)

Kerr is even smart enough to play into that as he implores his team to "make them work". One of the reasons the Cavs were able to hold on in game 4 was that there were so many stoppages of play....that allowed Lebron and Irving valuable rest throughout the game.

It's genius really. Use hero ball against the other team. That's why I would always take one of the 80s Celtics or Lakers teams over any team that relies on isolation offense to score points. He explains it here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Kerr
"We just felt like, the way they play...Kyrie and Lebron had it going the whole game...but that's pretty taxing to go 1 on 1 the whole game. Both those guys were amazing...38 and 39...but that takes a lot out of you and we just kept telling the guys they are gonna get tired. Stay in front of them, force some outside shots if you can. Fatigue will play a role. I think when you get guys playing 45/44 minutes basically attacking 1 on 1 the whole game, you hope eventually it's going to take its toll. I wasn't sure after a while...they were just going nuts. But I think we just stayed with it and our defense finally kicked in."
"I thought fatigue was an issue because the game was so hard fought. I think Kyrie and Lebron both played the entire second half...maybe they got a few seconds rest. And that's a hard thing to do. I think that's what makes our team who we are, we've got a lot of guys who can play off the ball and make plays and take some pressure off each other. And I thought that was a factor down the stretch. KD looked fresh and Clay was all over Kyrie.
[Y]crtN_2IXEZU[/YT]

Quote:
Speaking of which, even with as much as the Warriors run plays and have off ball motion, Curry (and to a smaller extent, KD) takes a ton of "bad" shots. A ton. Launching from almost half court with bigger guys draped on you have never been a good shot for anybody. He just hits them at a remarkable rate so people like you, who hate isolation, give him a pass. But it's also why, when he's off, he looks just as bad as anyone else you would criticize for "hero ball." Maybe worse.
That still comes in the context of a motion offense and he rarely has anyone draped all over him. They shoot well because they get open shots after all. The team in this series taking contested shots more often is the Cavs.
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The fact that you can pinpoint certain games MJ didn't dominate the ball is telling, because it didn't happen nearly as much as LeBron shying away from the ball when his team needed him the most. But it's also besides the point, at least for me.
I can point to tons of games where he passed to teammates for the big shot. Care to watch his 63 point game for more proof? It's true that he did take several game winning shots and missed them all, but he also passed to teammates and they came up with big points all through crunch time in regulation and both OTs. Oh...and you'll also see that Larry Bird was "afraid to shoot" too if you use the Lebron standard.

Check out any playoff game you want in the 90s and you won't find this fictional version of MJ. There has never been a reality where he "took over" and just played hero ball. That's a standard which exists only for Lebron. The Bulls were great because they played as a team. It was never "MJ won 6 rings", it was "the Bulls won 6 rings".

The funniest part is that Lebron has hit just as many game winning shots as MJ did in the playoffs but that gets ignored.

But the point is there is more than one way to play the game and be great. Magic and MJ played nothing alike and both were great players. But Lebron is expected to just play one way (the fictional version of MJ)...if he ever passes he is a "coward". Even though team play is the bedrock of the sport and the very best players who have ever played were willing passers who rarely if ever told their teammates to step aside so they could dominate the ball.

Now there have been players who play the fictional version of MJ...Allen Iverson springs to mind. I never thought much of him to be honest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc
Well, MJ also never drew the toughest defensive assignment as people like to imagine, so he could afford to not play 100% every play. But as you speak of the Warriors and their style of play, just watch how many bad shots they still take tonight. Guaranteed Steph, Klay & Durant will pull up over good, outstretched, hand in the face defense multiple times when they should pass the ball.
True. Most don't want to remember that Pippen was most often put on the toughest defensive assignment. He guarded Magic most of the time in 91 for instance.

But it's interesting that if you watch that Lakers/Bulls game, you'll see MJ guarding Magic in the 4th quarter. Magic would just back him down on the low post, easily take him with a spin movie, and....pass the ball. MJ couldn't come close to stopping him. Lebron would be roasted if he did that. But Magic got them a ton of open shots. They just missed them. There was no Worthy or Scott or Kareem on the court. I know exactly what you would claim Lebron "should have done" if that was him. One might even speculate that Phil let MJ guard Magic because he noticed Magic wasn't trying to score.
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Can the Cavs do the impossible?
Here is an article that outlines how improbably it is:
Quote:
Given all it took for them to prevail against the Warriors to fight off elimination in their Game 4 win Friday night, the Cavaliers are faced with a challenge nearly as improbable as they attempt to become the first team in postseason history to overcome a 3-0 series deficit. It might not take an all-time great effort for Cleveland to prevail against a Golden State squad which had won each of its previous 15 games this postseason and hadn't lost since April 10. However, considering what they had to pull off in order to pull out a win Friday, it'll likely require a gargantuan output for Cleveland to close the series 3-2 and earn a shot to tie it at three games apiece.

All they had to do was... score a NBA Finals-record 49 points in a quarter, the way they did during the first 12 minutes Friday to build an early 16-point lead.

All they had to do was... set a playoffs and finals record with 86 points at the half and 115, another finals mark, through three quarters. Boston scored 79 in a half against the Lakers in the 1985 Finals. Dallas scored 83 in a half in the playoffs against Sacramento in 2003.

All they had to do was... put up 137 points, the most ever scored by a team facing elimination and the third most in finals history. It was the highest point total in the finals since the Lakers scored 141 in Game 2 against the Celtics 20 years ago.

All they had to do was... hit 13 3-pointers in the first half and 24 for the game, both finals bests. Cleveland shot 53.3 percent from behind the arc for the game.

All they had to do was... tie the franchise-record for most points scored by a trio in a playoff game with Kyrie Irving (40), LeBron James (31) and Kevin Love (23) combining for 94.

All they had to do was... limit Stephen Curry, a two-time MVP who'd been averaging 28.6 points per game in three finals contests prior to Game 4 to 13 points. It was Curry's worst scoring output in these playoffs. He went 4 of 13 from the field (30.8 percent), and 2 of 9 from 3-point range (22.9 percent), also lows for this postseason.

Get the picture?
http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news...a10j3a2wedudct

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Originally Posted by Dr. Evil View Post
Six years ago today:

The team every rooted for but then immediately turned on the instant they won.

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Old 06-12-2017, 03:42 PM   #68
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Default Re: NBA Thread of 2016/2017: Grand Finale...again - Part 1

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Originally Posted by -VisionsVision- View Post
Can the Cavs do the impossible?
"IF" they win tonight....they "can", but probably still won't. They basically have to hope for another once in a lifetime shooting performance from their entire team, hope the Warriors are off and have a down game, and hope the calls go their way. All of these are less likely when you are playing on someone else's home court.

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Old 06-12-2017, 03:45 PM   #69
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Default Re: NBA Thread of 2016/2017: Grand Finale...again - Part 1

i wasn't a Mavs fan, but i was a Kidd fan. i was glad he finally got one

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Old 06-12-2017, 05:15 PM   #70
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Default Re: NBA Thread of 2016/2017: Grand Finale...again - Part 1

Just end this ****ing thing tonight so I can continue to watch my late showings of E3 like a normal nerd.

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Old 06-12-2017, 08:02 PM   #71
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Default Re: NBA Thread of 2016/2017: Grand Finale...again - Part 1

final score predictions?

GSW - 127
CLE - 109

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Old 06-12-2017, 08:15 PM   #72
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Default Re: NBA Thread of 2016/2017: Grand Finale...again - Part 1

Since there is no sweep... I'm torn... do I want to see the impossible happen... or Coward Durant get a ring.... hmm

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Old 06-12-2017, 08:21 PM   #73
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Default Re: NBA Thread of 2016/2017: Grand Finale...again - Part 1

a friend of mine recently said that being mad at durant is like being mad at someone for taking a better paying job position.

i'm not sure how i feel about that. i mean, if it wasn't sports and an actual job, it's like he went from working at nike and went to under armour or basically his job's biggest competition.
but if i was the one in the job and was offered a better workplace, better benefits (aka a ring) and possible a better salary, then i can't say i wouldn't think really hard about it.

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Old 06-12-2017, 08:52 PM   #74
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Default Re: NBA Thread of 2016/2017: Grand Finale...again - Part 1

Cavs shoot 62% in the 1st quarter....and have a 4 point lead. It's crazy what it takes to beat the Warriors.

Also just heard on the radio they have a way to keep track of the number of dribbles each player takes. Lebron and Irving are lapping everyone on either team Something like 1600 dribbles in games 3 and 4. That's where the energy is spent. They are working too hard to get each shot.

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Originally Posted by ComicChick View Post
a friend of mine recently said that being mad at durant is like being mad at someone for taking a better paying job position.

i'm not sure how i feel about that. i mean, if it wasn't sports and an actual job, it's like he went from working at nike and went to under armour or basically his job's biggest competition.
but if i was the one in the job and was offered a better workplace, better benefits (aka a ring) and possible a better salary, then i can't say i wouldn't think really hard about it.
We all agree he had the right to do it.

Of course fans also have a right to root against him for doing it. That's the difference in a normal job...there are no fans who cheer or boo you.

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Old 06-12-2017, 09:13 PM   #75
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Default Re: NBA Thread of 2016/2017: Grand Finale...again - Part 1

of all people, im kinda shocked to see Draymond pull and keep JR Smith out of the fighting and telling him to stop over and over

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