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Old 07-21-2018, 05:30 PM   #126
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Default Re: MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
There's also no reason not to.

Ben would be my last choice to race swap out of them all with Reed being my first.
It's not necessary. I don't see why the F4 need to get swapped - if anything, that argument for the X-Men makes wayyy more sense than it does for the F4.

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Old 07-21-2018, 06:21 PM   #127
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Default Re: MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

You can do both? Xmen and ff. It is 2018 of course and by the time these films come out it will be even later than that.

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Naomie Harris as Sue Storm. Great range. Loved her in everything I’ve seen her in. Can definitely do nurturing and confident.
Oh my gosh she would be so perfect as the First Lady of marvel! My only objection was that I wanted her to be Monica Lynne but they might want to get someone closer to chadwick’s age for that.

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Some things I liked:

1. Costumes
2. Silver Surfer
3. Fantasticar
4. Johnny's flaming effects

But then mixed in with those were painfully bad moments like Reed dancing in the club.

When I was watching that dancing scene, I remember sitting in the theater and having this weird feeling of complete embarrassment - as if the other people in the theater would know I was an FF fan and laugh at me for being so foolish.
Same on those four points. I think what really let them down was the villains. That’s what made it unbearable. If you’re going to do crazy rogues like the ff have don’t try and ground them. Marvel will know.

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When Michael B. Jordan was cast as Johnny Storm, I was against it but not because he is Black. (So am I.) My objection was that Sue was not also played by an African American. Making Sue adopted made having a Black Johnny and Franklin Storm seem like a stunt to me. Trank was telegraphing how edgy and different his version of the FF would be, but he didn't have the courage to include an interracial relationship/marriage in his film. There are any number of talented Black actresses who could have played Sue, not that I would have wanted anyone I admire to get caught up in Trank's disaster flick.

Of course, in the MCU Fantastic Four, we can expect to see Storm siblings who actually have a relationship with each other instead of strangers who never speak. Not to mention a team that feels like a family, as in the comics.
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Just give me Oscar Isaac for Reed and get Peyton Reed or Brad Bird to direct. Then I'll be happy
Same to be honest, I thought it was so silly. Like you can only have one black character at a time. I would have loved to see a black Johnny and Susan or Latino or anything as long as they represent what makes the characters so fun in the first place.

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Old 07-21-2018, 06:24 PM   #128
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Default Re: MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

No to Naomie Harris as Sue. First off, she's 41. And second, even if you were to have a black Sue, she doesn't really seem all that maternal. She's more like someone's manager at work.

And she is close to Chadwick Boseman's age. How is 41 not close to him?

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Old 07-21-2018, 06:52 PM   #129
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Default Re: MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

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It's not necessary. I don't see why the F4 need to get swapped - if anything, that argument for the X-Men makes wayyy more sense than it does for the F4.

Why would it make more sense for the X-Men? It makes no difference if a member or two of the FF are a different race for the films. Their race is not fundamental to the characters. The only member who can make that claim is Ben and his Jewish heritage (plus the ever luvin' blue-eyed thing catchphrase).

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Old 07-21-2018, 06:55 PM   #130
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Default Re: MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

Oh I thought Chadwick was like 25 or something? Gee he keeps well.

I think you might need to see more of her films. She plays a huge amount of roles not just someone’s manager type roles. For example, try and track down the televised run on Danny boyle’s Frankenstein. She was incredible in that.

Oh I thought of two quirky directors marvel might want to check out for this. Dario Russo (no relation), and David Ashby. They come from a similar place as taika, kind of doing low budget but funny tv shows/movies that clearly have a love of the pulp era. They did Italian Spider-Man and Danger 5.

If people saw them they might think they’re too camp but obviously what they were doing was with a tiny budget. You can see a lot of genius in there

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Old 07-21-2018, 07:12 PM   #131
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Default Re: MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

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Oh I thought Chadwick was like 25 or something? Gee he keeps well.

I think you might need to see more of her films. She plays a huge amount of roles not just someone’s manager type roles. For example, try and track down the televised run on Danny boyle’s Frankenstein. She was incredible in that.

Oh I thought of two quirky directors marvel might want to check out for this. Dario Russo (no relation), and David Ashby. They come from a similar place as taika, kind of doing low budget but funny tv shows/movies that clearly have a love of the pulp era. They did Italian Spider-Man and Danger 5.

If people saw them they might think they’re too camp but obviously what they were doing was with a tiny budget. You can see a lot of genius in there
Chadwick Boseman is 40.

In any event, Naomie Harris, regardless of her other roles, is too old for Sue at 41. Some would even argue that's too old for Reed, so there's absolutely no chance for Sue to be that age.

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Old 07-21-2018, 07:12 PM   #132
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Default Re: MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

Reed Richards is confident, curious, and intelligent all while being having a guilty conscience because he blames himself for what happened to his best friend — Ben Grimm(aka The Thing). Any race/ethicinity can play that.

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Old 07-21-2018, 07:17 PM   #133
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Default Re: MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

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Why would it make more sense for the X-Men? It makes no difference if a member or two of the FF are a different race for the films. Their race is not fundamental to the characters. The only member who can make that claim is Ben and his Jewish heritage (plus the ever luvin' blue-eyed thing catchphrase).
Uh, because the X-Men and mutants are a metaphor for oppressed minorities in real life. You could make the argument that the X-Men themselves should better reflect real life minorities who are discriminated against in 2018-2021.

F4 have no legitimate argument for race swaps outside "yeah, but it's more diverse" so change for the sake of change. There is zero reason to change the iconography of these characters other than to make it more diverse. Homecoming doing it made sense, X-Men doing it makes sense, Fantastic Four doing it has no real justification.

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Old 07-21-2018, 07:21 PM   #134
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Default Re: MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

Pretty sure Fantastic Four will come first post merger. They are the easiest to introduce. I think the X-Men will be put in a cool down period following Dark Phoenix. They may start teasing mutants though we might get a professor x tease at some point. You need to build up to Avengers vs X-Men. Doom would make sense as the post Thanos villain. Not too small but not too big ethe doesnt require much build up. Galactus on the other needs to be built up Like Thanos.


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Old 07-21-2018, 07:29 PM   #135
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Default Re: MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

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You need to build up to Avengers vs X-Men.
You darn well do NOT! That was a horrible company-wide event and would be a tacit admission that either they don't read their own comics published before 2006 or only read the Wikipedia summaries of their own comics.

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Old 07-21-2018, 07:31 PM   #136
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Default Re: MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

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You darn well do NOT! That was a horrible company-wide event and would be a tacit admission that either they don't read their own comics published before 2006 or only read the Wikipedia summaries of their own comics.
You need a reason like Civil War for them to fight each other. The dangers of Mutants need to be shown. Are they friend or foe? Magneto could be the one who causes friction between the Avengers and X-Men.

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Old 07-21-2018, 07:33 PM   #137
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Default Re: MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

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Uh, because the X-Men and mutants are a metaphor for oppressed minorities in real life. You could make the argument that the X-Men themselves should better reflect real life minorities who are discriminated against in 2018-2021.

F4 have no legitimate argument for race swaps outside "yeah, but it's more diverse" so change for the sake of change. There is zero reason to change the iconography of these characters other than to make it more diverse. Homecoming doing it made sense, X-Men doing it makes sense, Fantastic Four doing it has no real justification.

There doesn't need to be thematic or story reasons for people being a certain race/ethnicity. These are films not comics and if Marvel decides to change the race of a member of the FF (or two if its Sue and Johnny) then there is no problem. The only thing that matters in respect to following the source material is the personality, actions, and feel of the characters.
The only important physical traits is that Reed has graying sides and Ben is big orange rock monster. That's it. Maybe add Sue and Johnny being blond can go in there too as you just get the actors of any race to dye their hair.

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Old 07-21-2018, 07:42 PM   #138
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Default Re: MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

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Uh, because the X-Men and mutants are a metaphor for oppressed minorities in real life. You could make the argument that the X-Men themselves should better reflect real life minorities who are discriminated against in 2018-2021.

F4 have no legitimate argument for race swaps outside "yeah, but it's more diverse" so change for the sake of change. There is zero reason to change the iconography of these characters other than to make it more diverse. Homecoming doing it made sense, X-Men doing it makes sense, Fantastic Four doing it has no real justification.
The Fantastic Four are not that iconic.... You'd have a point if one was arguing for a race-swapping of much more iconic characters like Superman and Batman or even Spider-Man but FF are nowhere near that level of iconography. The vast majority of the mainstream audience doesn't have any attachment to the FF being one race.

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Old 07-21-2018, 07:53 PM   #139
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Default Re: MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

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The Fantastic Four are not that iconic.... You'd have a point if one was arguing for a race-swapping of much more iconic characters like Superman and Batman or even Spider-Man but FF are nowhere near that level of iconography. The vast majority of the mainstream audience doesn't have any attachment to the FF being one race.
The FF are iconic, and more so than the Avengers were before they hit the big screen. They go to the very foundation of the Marvel universe.

They are also more iconic than the likes of Flash or Aquaman, and more than Iron Man was before 2008.

The Incredibles aren't that iconic either. Pixar should've race swapped them this time round.

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Old 07-21-2018, 07:54 PM   #140
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Default Re: MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

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There doesn't need to be thematic or story reasons for people being a certain race/ethnicity. These are films not comics and if Marvel decides to change the race of a member of the FF (or two if its Sue and Johnny) then there is no problem. The only thing that matters in respect to following the source material is the personality, actions, and feel of the characters.
Which would include the characters look. Of course this isn't the comics but as every comic artist says, comic books are a visual medium and these characters have looked this way since they were introduced and they are ingrained into pop culture consciousness. I personally don't think race swaps on the 4 are going to happen, not after the MBJ controversy. I'm willing to bet Marvel is going to play it a bit safe with the 4.
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The only important physical traits is that Reed has graying sides and Ben is big orange rock monster. That's it. Maybe add Sue and Johnny being blond can go in there too as you just get the actors of any race to dye their hair.
So you concede that the looks of these characters are important. Okay, but you can't cherrypick aspects of their look and say "this is the only iconic part" Reeds whole look is iconic and that includes his race as well as the grey temples. Either the whole look is iconic or none of him is. It's the same as Ben being a rock monster. Or Spider-Man having a red and blue suit with a web pattern on it. Don't fix what ain't broken. Unlike the X-Men (who would benefit from a more diverse cast of X-Men) there is discernable reason for a race change outside of "just because"

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Old 07-21-2018, 08:08 PM   #141
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Default Re: MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

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The FF are iconic, and more so than the Avengers were before they hit the big screen. They go to the very foundation of the Marvel universe.
You misunderstood me a bit. I never said the FF are not iconic I said the FF are not "that iconic"(as in not on the universal level of recognition as say Batman, Superman or even Spider-Man ). Superman, Batman, and even Spider-Man are extremely iconic characters who's race(while not a definitive part of them) is commonly associated with them whenever someone pictures them in their head. The FF doesn't really have that(and likely never will) since the mainstream audience doesn't hold the FF to the same kind of reverence that they do with someone like Superman.
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They are also more iconic than the likes of Flash or Aquaman, and more than Iron Man was before 2008.
There's varying levels of 'iconic' that exist. Superman and Batman are definitely the highest on the hierarchy and that's the bar that FF doesn't meet.

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Old 07-21-2018, 08:16 PM   #142
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You misunderstood me a bit. I never said the FF are not iconic I said the FF are not "that iconic"(as in not on the universal level of recognition as say Batman, Superman or even Spider-Man level). Superman, Batman, and even Spider-Man are extremely iconic characters who's race(while not a definitive part of them) is commonly associated with them whenever someone pictures them in their head. The FF doesn't really have that(and likely never will) since the mainstream audience doesn't hold the FF to the same kind of reverence that they do with someone like Superman.
There's varying levels of 'iconic' that exist. Supes, Batman are definitely highest on the hierarchy and that's the bar that FF doesn't meet.
So if you form a connection to characters and their history that aren't as iconic as others, then it's only fair or more acceptable if your disappointed that the characters are changed, because basically their history doesn't mean as much. They don't get the benefit of the doubt that comes with fame.

No thanks.

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Old 07-21-2018, 08:24 PM   #143
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To be fair, I would much prefer the FF's race not being changed I just sort of push against this idea that changing the race of a comic book character fundamentally alters the character in some way. If Marvel casted an Indian-American actor to play Reed -- even though I would prefer a white actor to play the role if Marvel truly felt that actor was the right actor for the part then I wouldn't complain but I guess your mileage will vary.

To each their own.

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Old 07-21-2018, 08:29 PM   #144
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Default Re: MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

Though I shall add that that race does matter when it comes to certain characters like Black Panther who's race is a vital part of the character and I wouldn't like it if Doom was race-swapped since he's an eastern European guy and those countries tend to be more homogeneous than Western Europe(which tends to be more multi-cultural). I just think in a lot of cases race doesn't really matter. Feel free to disagree.

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Old 07-21-2018, 08:36 PM   #145
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Default Re: MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

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To be fair, I would much prefer the FF's race not being changed I just sort of push against this idea that changing the race of a characters fundamentally alters the character in some way. If Marvel casted an Indian-American actor play Reed -- even though I would prefer a white actor to play the role if Marvel truly felt that actor was the right actor for the part then I wouldn't complain but I guess your mileage will vary.

To each their own.
That's fine, I agree in general, but this logic should apply to every character where it's applicable, regardless of iconography. If diversity is an important element going forward then no character should be above that sentiment imo.

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Old 07-21-2018, 08:41 PM   #146
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Default Re: MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

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To be fair, I would much prefer the FF's race not being changed I just sort of push against this idea that changing the race of a comic book character fundamentally alters the character in some way. If Marvel casted an Indian-American actor to play Reed -- even though I would prefer a white actor to play the role if Marvel truly felt that actor was the right actor for the part then I wouldn't complain but I guess your mileage will vary.

To each their own.
Reed in particular feels the least like it matters so as long as his temples gray since he was born & raised in California.
Sue & Johnny are blond-haired blue-eyed Long Islanders.
Ben's Jewish.

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Old 07-21-2018, 08:43 PM   #147
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Default Re: MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

But some characters are too iconic to change. Even in the case of X-Men, I don't want Scott, Jean or Logan to change. Characters like Peter Parker, Reed Richards or Wolverine are too popular to swap. There is a line that needs to be drawn with who can and can't get swapped imo

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Old 07-21-2018, 08:45 PM   #148
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Pretty sure Feige will stick close to the source material on F4 its what the fans are expecting. We waited so long for them to come home they can not screw this up. They'll play it safe.

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Old 07-21-2018, 08:46 PM   #149
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Default Re: MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

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But some characters are too iconic to change. Even in the case of X-Men, I don't want Scott, Jean or Logan to change. Characters like Peter Parker, Reed Richards or Wolverine are too popular to swap. There is a line that needs to be drawn with who can and can't get swapped imo
Wolverine would work just as well if he was a Mexican luchador.
In fact, it makes too much sense.

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Old 07-21-2018, 10:43 PM   #150
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Default Re: MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

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But some characters are too iconic to change. Even in the case of X-Men, I don't want Scott, Jean or Logan to change. Characters like Peter Parker, Reed Richards or Wolverine are too popular to swap. There is a line that needs to be drawn with who can and can't get swapped imo
I agree, but I'm just against this whole my funny pages are more precious then your funny pages so can't be changed BS. If one can be changed they all can be changed. The fact that Superman's curl is more famous then Reeds grey temples is not a compelling argument for why one should or shouldn't be changed. I could easily construct an argument for why it would be more impactful and meaningful for the more iconic characters to be changed...

That being said I'm not advocating change for the sake of change and do hope the more iconic characters (which I consider the First Family to be) stay as they are. I do think diversity is important and understand it's a reality going forward, there just has to be as healthy a respect for the source as there is for the desire to represent everyone. It needs to be carefully done to find the right balance.


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