Hey...how about a JL TV show?

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by The Guard

Is someone trying to use fanfiction counts to prove that SMALLVILLE was more successful than other Superman projects?

Haha.


This is too priceless. I almost wish we were in the Superman forum for this.

[Tobias]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

For the record, I'm not a fan of Smallville. Though I liked some of the ideas it had. Hell, there were even parts I liked. It was a TV show, so I didn't expect a lot. They obviously couldn't do things like show a young Clark fly around the world, go to alien planets, etc. They had to work with what they had (a limited budget, and limited special effects).

Personally I would have no problem if Lex knew that Superman was Clark Kent. A competent writer could make that work.

Exactly!!

And for the record I am not an SV fan either. Though I appreciate that it proved the franchise can still be a cash cow.

[Thundercrack85]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

There's actually a reason why DC won't have Luthor learn Superman's identity.

It ruins everything. If Superman throws Luthor in prison (which happens all the time), what's to stop Lex from telling the Feds about Superman's identity?

Why would he rot in jail and sit on the secret? The logic just doesn't work to have Lex know about Superman's identity.

Lex would look like the biggest fool if he didn't act on that knowledge. It goes against his character.

Simple answer, pride. The old nobody can kill you but me logic. Him instantly telling people also assumes that Lex is a simple character who wants to do nothing but immediately take down Superman. A good writer would give them a complex relationship. You could even make it an honor thing.

If anything it would show his intelligence, compared to other villains, who can't figure out their adversaries true identities.

[Tobias]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

There's actually a reason why DC won't have Luthor learn Superman's identity.

It ruins everything. If Superman throws Luthor in prison (which happens all the time), what's to stop Lex from telling the Feds about Superman's identity?

Why would he rot in jail and sit on the secret? The logic just doesn't work to have Lex know about Superman's identity.

Lex would look like the biggest fool if he didn't act on that knowledge. It goes against his character.

Not at all.

Lex would use this knowledge as a leverage against Supes.

Lex would hold it close to his heart and trust no else with this knowledge. But hold it over Superman's head.

It makes for for a much broader realtionship between the two.

[Tobias]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

Simple answer, pride. The old nobody can kill you but me logic. Him instantly telling people also assumes that Lex is a simple character who wants to do nothing but immediately take down Superman. A good writer would give them a complex relationship. You could even make it an honor thing.

If anything it would show his intelligence, compared to other villains, who can't figure out their adversaries true identities.

Bingo!!

You get it. There is so much potential here. Given good writers.

[Tobias]

Originally Posted by The Guard

Is someone trying to use fanfiction counts to prove that SMALLVILLE was more successful than other Superman projects?

People forget...there was an attempt at a JLA TV show in the 90's. The pilot didn't get picked up, but you can find it online. I think the big problem with JLA is the effects/budget. Even SMALLVILLE often looked hokey, and its JSA/JLA elements tended to look awful. Would I love to see a JLA show? Absolutely. There are a lot of shows I'd love to see. I don't trust the studio to do most of the concepts justice. We'll see how ARROW turns out.

Fanfic counts are a gauge. Not the only one but a factor.

Look at the Bats and Spidey fics - in the thousands. Look at Supes/SR -not even 400.

Look at Smallville - far greater than Bats or Spidey.

The intrnet is young, hip and to a degree a measure of popularity.

Smallville at leat holds it's own (it actually beats) Bats and Spidey and IronMan. Superman/SR fics are not even on the radar.

Discount this if you will but I think that is a mistake insofar as measuring the incarnation of Superman that at least partially seems to connect today.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

Simple answer, pride. The old nobody can kill you but me logic. Him instantly telling people also assumes that Lex is a simple character who wants to do nothing but immediately take down Superman. A good writer would give them a complex relationship. You could even make it an honor thing.

If anything it would show his intelligence, compared to other villains, who can't figure out their adversaries true identities.

Lex has pride but he's also remarkably intelligent. Why would he sit in prison knowing Superman's secret and not use it to his advantage?

Pride or not, he's an idiot if he doesn't make use of what he knows.


Superman has had some brilliant writers in the past decades. They've all kept Lex in the dark about 'Clark Kent'. It's for the best.

Originally Posted by Tobias

Not at all.

Lex would use this knowledge as a leverage against Supes.

Lex would hold it close to his heart and trust no else with this knowledge. But hold it over Superman's head.

It makes for for a much broader realtionship between the two.

I don't think you understand the Superman character at all. He wouldn't be intimidated by Lex in that manner or excuse Lex's crimes in order to protect the Clark Kent identity.


Such leverage wouldn't work. It would make Superman look shady if he gave in to such a thing.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Tobias

Fanfic counts are a gauge. Not the only one but a factor.

Look at the Bats and Spidey fics - in the thousands. Look at Supes/SR -not even 400.

Look at Smallville - far greater than Bats or Spidey.

The intrnet is young, hip and to a degree a measure of popularity.

Smallville at leat holds it's own (it actually beats) Bats and Spidey and IronMan. Superman/SR fics are not even on the radar.

Discount this if you will but I think that is a mistake insofar as measuring the incarnation of Superman that at least partially seems to connect today.

Haha. You do realize the majority of Smallville fanfiction is likely by shippers and about 'shipping.'


It's really not a gauge of anything but the loneliness of those fans

[Tobias]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Haha. You do realize the majority of Smallville fanfiction is likely by shippers and about 'shipping.'


It's really not a gauge of anything but the loneliness of those fans

It's all relative. Should I assume the majority of Batman fic writers are shippers? Or Spidey fic writers?

Numbers are numbers though one can twist them to their own "agenda".

In the end there is a measure/guuge of popularity/connection, however imprecise, in these fanfic counts.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Tobias

It's all relative. Should I assume the majority of Batman fic writers are shippers? Or Spidey fic writers?.

Why would you need to assume that?

Smallville is a CW Soap catered to shippers.

The consequent presence of online shipper fanfiction speaks for itself.

Originally Posted by Tobias

Numbers are numbers though one can twist them to their own "agenda".

In the end there is a measure/guuge of popularity/connection, however imprecise, in these fanfic counts

It's basically a measurement of nothing.

Take this fanfiction theory to the Superman forum, they'd have quite a laugh over it.

[The Guard]

Fanfic counts are a gauge. Not the only one but a factor.

Yes, but it counts as a gauge for fanfic.

14,000 stories about characters really means nothing except that there are 14,000 stories about the series, and that fan writers write that more than anything else. But that's not even a drop in the ocean of the audience WB targets for film or TV.

[david icke]

Even if the special effects were not as good as the movies, the drama between the characters could be just as thrilling.
The interactions between Clark and the Flash in 'Run' were just as good as any in the Avengers movie.

[hopefuldreamer]

If anything, I'd say Smallville's fanfiction numbers were an indication of the age of the majority of it's fans.

It's a very popular practice for teenagers. That's why something like Harry Potter has such a vast range of fanfiction. Or Supernatural (though I think a lot of that AND Smallville is alos taken up by slash fantasies).

So something like Smallville, that appeals very much too teenagers, is going to be popular among teenage fanfic writers.

And from personal experience, another reason Smallville may have a large number of fanfictions and Superman in general does not, is that writing Smallville fanfiction is incredibly easy.

I used to write it when I was a teen, but I couldn't write fanfic for other shows I liked better. But Smallville was just so forumlaic and predictable, especially in it's early seasons, so it really wasn't difficult.

Scene 1 - Meteor Freak is born/attacks someone, Scene 2 - Clark hears about it through Chloe, Scene 3 - Meteor Freak kidnaps Lana, Scene 4 - Clark asks Lex for help, Scene 5 - Lex realises it's Lionel's fault somehow and confronts him, Scene 6 - Chloe figures out where MF will be, Scene 7 - Clark shows down with it, runs into som Meteor Rock but manages to escape it, defeats MF and saves Lana without her seeing anything 'special', Scene 8 - Clark talks to his parents about how much he wants to tell Lana, Scene 9 - Lex tells Clark about his fathers involvement and their share a bonding moment, Scene 10 - Lana/Clark barn scene.

And even the lines are really predictable and easy to replicate.

[JeetKuneDo]

Originally Posted by The Question

A show could still be good even with ass special effects.

And anyway, if they were banking on it being a big thing to cash into The Avengers, WB might pump some real money into it.

I'd be all for a JLA TV show, or separate live action JLA member TV shows that tie into each other, as long as they had a good show runner. Someone who cares about making quality entertainment, who both loves shlock and taking shlocky things very seriously and treating them with respect, and knows comics.

Which basically describes Joss Whedon, but you get my point.

If you had, like, Marti Noxon, maybe paired with someone like Ronald D. Moore, as show runner, I'd probably watch it.

Agreed. It's about the writing. Jaws has a fake-looking shark. Aliens has an obvious puppet queen. But they are two of my all-time favorite movies. There is WAY too much focus on "effects" these days. I watched a few episodes of No Ordinary Family and the effects were fine. There are even speedster effects that would work great for The Flash. But the writing...eek...not great. THAT....is the problem.

Hire great writers and they could turn out a great show. "Effects" be damned.

Originally Posted by Tobias

Smallville got Lex/Clark. Delved into that realtionship as it should be in the franchise. Brothers indeed who fall out and hate each other. That is the mytholigical element missing from Superman today and for a long time now. Spaecy's Lex in SR was a joke. One-dimesional. Over-the-top. Even Hackman's Lex pales io comparison to Rosenbaum's.

The nuanced relationsip of Lex/Clark in Smallville, despite how strong or not particular actors may have been, that is what is intriguing and what draws interest. Even from the "young".

That was the best part of Smallville for me as well. Rosenbaum would probably be my favorite Lex. The problem wasn't "effects" or "small budget"....is was the writing. I watched the show anyway since I really like Superman...but boy some of the Lana Lang stuff drove me crazy.

It's all about the writing. (This should not be a secret by now)

Originally Posted by The Question

I more or less liked Stargirl's costume and, beside the flying effect, the only problem with hawk man's is that it didn't fit right.

Really, effects aren't THAT big a deal. Doctor Who is one of the most beloved Sci-Fi shows of all time and up until very very recently it's special effects were HORRIBLE, even by the standards of the time.

Portraying the League with respect means making something with a good story and good acting. The special effects, while important, are secondary to that.

And if we're more likely to see a live action JLA on TV than in a movie, and that show looked like the JSA episode of Smallville in terms of effects, I'm okay with that so long as it's written, acted, and directed well.

Agreed and agreed.

Originally Posted by The Question

TV, however, might not have the same stigma. From a storytelling standpoint they'd have the time to develop every member of the cast and their individual issues, and if it's on TV instead of on the big screen then it may be seen more favorably by the public.

That's what intrigues me about the idea. A TV show has a huge advantage in the realm of character development. No movie can compete really.

[The Overlord]

Originally Posted by The Question

You're missing one thing:

Cashing in.

If The Avengers stays popular, a TV show would be a great way for them to cash in on the superhero team buzz without looking like a TOTAL rip off.



Well, I mean, they'd have to have super powers. That's kind of in the basic premise. Any added "realism" after that wouldn't necessarily be detrimental.

I think you are missing a main point, you haven't addressed the question of how would you portray the super powers at all on a TV budget. How can do you do GL's powers on a small screen? Heck a TV budget would mean most of the alien foes the JLA fight (Starro, Despero, etc) can't be in the TV show. It seems like they have to do what Smallville and change major characters into something else for the sake of the budget. Darkseid got turned into a lame smoke demon for the sake of the budget in Smallville. I don't see how you are supposed to capture the epic nature of the JLA from the comics with a TV budget.

It seems like on show they would hardly ever use their powers and fight two bit gangster instead of epic alien threats. That doesn't seem like the JLA, it seems like a pale imitation.

[The Question]

Originally Posted by The Overlord

I think you are missing a main point, you haven't addressed the question of how would you portray the super powers at all on a TV budget. How can do you do GL's powers on a small screen? Heck a TV budget would mean most of the alien foes the JLA fight (Starro, Despero, etc) can't be in the TV show. It seems like they have to do what Smallville and change major characters into something else for the sake of the budget. Darkseid got turned into a lame smoke demon for the sake of the budget in Smallville. I don't see how you are supposed to capture the epic nature of the JLA from the comics with a TV budget.

It seems like on show they would hardly ever use their powers and fight two bit gangster instead of epic alien threats. That doesn't seem like the JLA, it seems like a pale imitation.

Simple: The effects would look sub par compared to a movie. That doesn't bother me.

[The Overlord]

Originally Posted by The Question

Simple: The effects would look sub par compared to a movie. That doesn't bother me.

Not that simple, even sub par GL effects would be expensive and I don't see how you could do most of the JLA's alien enemies on a TV budget. We would see more story elements changed for the sake of the budget. If the show looks too cheap, it will just look trashy and wouldn't capture epic feel of the comics. It be the JLA TV movie all over again, where they are cheap costumes and living in a apartment in order to save money.

This isn't like Star Trek, where all you need is some starship models, a few guys in make up and a few effects here and there. GL's powers and a lot of the JLA's aliens enemies would need a lot of CGI. The problem is Star Trek and Dr. Who were made for TV, so the creators could tailor things to work on a TV budget. JLA is a comic and wasn't created with those concerns in mind, so its far more difficult to tailor things to work in a TV series with the JLA. Also budget concerns often resulted in changes to the script in Star Trek, so to say the budget doesn't effect the script is a bit naive.

[DrCosmic]

Originally Posted by The Overlord

Not that simple, even sub par GL effects would be expensive and I don't see how you could do most of the JLA's alien enemies on a TV budget. We would see more story elements changed for the sake of the budget. If the show looks too cheap, it will just look trashy and wouldn't capture epic feel of the comics. It be the JLA TV movie all over again, where they are cheap costumes and living in a apartment in order to save money.

This isn't like Star Trek, where all you need is some starship models, a few guys in make up and a few effects here and there. GL's powers and a lot of the JLA's aliens enemies would need a lot of CGI. The problem is Star Trek and Dr. Who were made for TV, so the creators could tailor things to work on a TV budget. JLA is a comic and wasn't created with those concerns in mind, so its far more difficult to tailor things to work in a TV series with the JLA. Also budget concerns often resulted in changes to the script in Star Trek, so to say the budget doesn't effect the script is a bit naive.

Agreed. A JLA TV show would not only have subpar effects, but it would show them rarely, maybe 1 or 2 short action sequences an episodes, in addition to rabid power-downs. Now, it could still be a great show, no doubt, but in order to be workable as a TV show it would have to be about the league as people, outside of their costumes, and their interpersonal relationships, rather than how they're going to defeat a big villain.

Basically... like Smallville. Except now the entire main cast has powers that they rarely use for various cleverly written reasons. Even in the JLA TV shows and comics we have, characters have to be written out temporarily or forgetting their powers constantly in order for there to be any drama. And that's when a laser beam is no more expensive than a line of dialogue.

I forsee a very Power Rangers like situation here.

[sethypants]

I would prefer a teen titans tv show.