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Old 12-15-2016, 05:37 PM   #251
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

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Why does that matter? Why do you care how people perceive Hillary Clinton at this point? In tangible, real world terms, what are you thinking will happen after she makes a PR appearance? It seems as though you really are hung up on this and consider it to be paramount and I'd like to know why..
How people perceive Hillary is how many, including Clinton voters, perceive the reaction to Trump and the election itself. Hillary's late concession speech painted an image of not being willing to accept, as well as a - sorry to be blunt, need for safe spaces to crawl into and cry. Then that images is what is being projected.

You have an image of retreating, head down and trying to hide vs out in the open, head held high, and talking about hope for the future. This is then what is projected outwards. It seems small, but something as simple as that can do wonders.

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Right at the moment, it just is not needed. She came off of an extremely hard campaign, she deserves to have her family around her and rejuvenate.
As said, I was sympathetic for her the night of the results and even told those giving it to her to hold off. That it hit her hard and she just needs some time. Hell, I'd even give her the benefit of the first couple weeks. But, now and I can say this bluntly and without bias for her - it's painting an image of her being weak, in the same way her late concession speech was viewed and this is the image that the election is projecting outward.

The election right now is painted right now by many (even those pro Hillary) as some tragic defeat. I align with Michael Moore in saying that it's not and people need to stop regarding it as such. It was a defeat by state lines, she won the popular vote and if it wasn't for out dated technicalities she would have won the election. It goes from painting the election as some tragic defeat where the majority turned against her, to painting it how it is - a defeat by technicality yet the clear winner of the people. As said, I'm with Michael Moore on the perception of the election needing to be changed (not the results, the perception of it) and that close-up would go a far way in emboldening that dialogue and adding in hope without Hillary herself speaking about it - merely just looking the part.

As said, I believe that close-up can go a far way in shifting that depiction/perception of it to the way Michael Moore is mentioning and I agree with.

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Old 12-15-2016, 06:08 PM   #252
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

Hillary represents the modern elitist neo-liberalism that America just rejected supremely, from the right to a huge amount of progressive Democrats. In fact the Democratic party is hard at work at disassociating itself with the kind of Democratic Party that Hillary represented and that's why she's staying out of the picture. People want her to go away, rightly or wrongly, and she does nobody but herself any service by making appearances. It actually would make her look like she can't take a loss and is more self-serving and in need of attention.

I agree with your notion that America did choose her, but optics are important, and people just would not take her being out constantly in the limelight well considering how many anti-Hillary people there. I just think we disagree on what good it would do for her to be out there.

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Old 12-15-2016, 06:12 PM   #253
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

You're telling us again about perceptions. Im aware of how all this is perceived. I'm asking what concrete meaningful gains can be made by Hillary attempting to put a positive spin on a perception of her defeat.

Also, IMO, this is not a tragic defeat because of how Hillary lost--it doesn't matter how she lost. It's a tragic defeat because we now have Donald Trump elected to the highest office in the land. That's truly tragic in and of itself, period. Pontificating about a more rosy way to view the way in which Clinton lost does not make Trump's election any less horrible. Knowing that Hillary won the popular vote does less than little to assuage my nausea at this sideshow being elected. Maybe it means that most people in this country aren't as backward as the new president elect pick would seem to suggest? Big whoop. Let me throw on my party hat. In the meantime, we still have present, real world concerns that will be placed in front of us that we will have to deal with for the next four years. And based upon seeing how little people have learned from this election cycle, probably the next eight years.

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Old 12-15-2016, 06:15 PM   #254
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Not constantly. Once. To go out on a high note. Make no mistake I'm not for her, I voted that way due to anti Trump. But with that said do I think it would embolden and inspire more people with there being her exiting head held high in comparison to the running joke she's inadvertently become for retreating? Yeah. Those people, I think changing the narrative from her loss and retreat from joke and devastating defeat into that of being more head held high would embolden. A single appearance would accomplish altering the narrative from devastating defeat into more hopeful for many. That people feel encouraged and engaged rather than retreating also.

More hopeful = more pulled out of being down = further emboldening the troops out from despair to confront Trump any way they see fit.

As said I'm not for Hillary. Giving those who voted and liked her a better narrative than becoming a running joke... Yeah, I have no doubt that would embolden them which would strengthen everything overall. It's one cog, but a machine needs ALL the cogs to be as strong and as in working order as it can be to work to it's utmost highest performance.

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Old 12-15-2016, 06:21 PM   #255
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

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Hillary represents the modern elitist neo-liberalism that America just rejected supremely, from the right to a huge amount of progressive Democrats. In fact the Democratic party is hard at work at disassociating itself with the kind of Democratic Party that Hillary represented and that's why she's staying out of the picture. People want her to go away, rightly or wrongly, and she does nobody but herself any service by making appearances. It actually would make her look like she can't take a loss and is more self-serving and in need of attention.

I agree with your notion that America did choose her, but optics are important, and people just would not take her being out constantly in the limelight well considering how many anti-Hillary people there. I just think we disagree on what good it would do for her to be out there.
I would not this election as any sort of mandate. Trumps margins of winning the key states in the electoral college were very thin.

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Old 12-15-2016, 06:23 PM   #256
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

If a person truly needs to see Hillary Clinton on tv projecting a glow of happiness and strength, in order to raise themselves up out of their despair and challenge policies of a President elect....then I seriously need to question such a person's emotional or mental maturity.

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Old 12-15-2016, 06:27 PM   #257
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If a person truly needs to see Hillary Clinton on tv projecting a glow of happiness and strength, in order to raise themselves up out of their despair and challenge policies of a President elect....then I seriously need to question such a person's emotional or mental maturity.
I have seen many older people, and a lot from WOMEN for Hillary (which no our anger for Trump (minority or not) will NEVER truly match up to what this means to them - I think as men this is something we must take into account that no matter how angry over it, we don't know what this meant to them (especially that she lost to a self confessed groper and misogynist)), growing apathetic and retreating in the same manner that Hillary has. Will seeing their leader and inspiration emboldened act as an inspiring tool for those people? No doubt.

As said a machine can only be strong when all of the cogs are in working order, not by scrapping cogs into the junk heap. This, is going to take them all.

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Old 12-15-2016, 06:49 PM   #258
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

I really would like to doubt that Hillary is their leader and inspiration. Because that is seriously sad. A healthy adult should be able to separate politicians from saviors.

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Old 12-15-2016, 07:00 PM   #259
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Because we're guys AND because most likely you weren't for her, just against Trump (as am I, both counts). As said, it's something as guys we will never be able to grasp. As a hispanic immigrant, yeah I'm pissed. Furious. But I'm a guy. Women have been for a very long time seeking equal placement. Women are still met with sexism, lower pay, and are seen as inferior. To them Hillary represented their chance to further women rights and further being seen as equal rather than inferior, something that as guy's we can't fully understand nor grasp. Trump representing everything that's been holding them down for a very long time - a caricature of a sexist groper who treats women like crap. To many women it was much as a metaphorical election as it was a literal one. And the message that we sent to them was "you're not equal, you haven't gotten there yet, even Trump who will try to grope you is seen as your superior." As a guy, I wouldn't even begin to be able to grasp what that meant to them nor would I pretend to. But can I be sympathetic and understand from an outside perspective that for many women this was as much a metaphorical as well as a literal election and that many are feeling this ten-fold in comparison to guys? Yeah. As said, it's something that I can't fully grasp, but understand.

Those I've seen hit hardest by this are older women. It's not surprising why either. They've had to put up with it for longer, they remember when times were worse off than they are today, and it was a metaphorical as well as a literal loss. These are the people I've seen hit the hardest.

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Old 12-15-2016, 08:01 PM   #260
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To me it has nothing to do with owing anyone anything. To me that's not how to approach this at all.

It's not speaking against Trump, it's not standing behind a chair, it's as simple a thing as a moving image. That's the key. What she says.... Eh... Not that important. Rather, the moving image of the whole thing is.

I'm looking at this purely from a PR standpoint, not a political one. I have to say in advance, the below is blunt. I'm sympathetic, but I do have to be blunt to show how the running joke and perception has come about.

Hillary gave her concession speech late. I accept that, it was a hard loss. But many were (especially majority of the news) criticizing her for it and some were calling her weak and being too power hungry to admit defeat. So, she gives the speech. Soon after, as the story goes she walks into the woods to hike and is never seen from again.

To me, that's not ending on a high note. To those who aren't gung ho Hillary all it's really doing is enforcing that same view of her on that night of the concession speech. Of someone running away and hiding out of not wanting to accept current affairs. That she can't accept what is going on and wants to hide away from it. It's becoming a running joke in the same way that her delayed concession speech was. The two, in the way it's seen and has been recieve, hold a lot of similarities.

Now, that is an easy fix. Go on CNN, MSNBC, a late night talk show - anything to show that she's holding herself together, that she's still going strong and has hope in the Democratic party going forward. She can talk about what she's been doing or even her love for nature. She can even request not to talk about Trump and if asked can give the stock answer of wishing for the best (I doubt Obama and Bernie and etc. feel this pro Trump way - it's politicized neutrality that is free from controversy). The thing is, it's not what she says. It's in the close up. There has to be a close up of her showing that her head is held high, that her voice is balanced not quivering and confident, and that she isn't running away from it but accepts it while showing hope for the future. All of that can be accomplished without mentioning Trump once.

It's really the night of the concession speech that is molding and shaping by and large the running joke of her retreat. Her coming forward would end the running joke, put a good face on everything going on, and further embolden and give hope to those who are pro Hillary. And Trump doesn't need to be mentioned for any of this. Just voice and close up. Some might argue that does nothing. To me, that'd do wonders for how the whole thing is perceived. Head held high vs retreat and avoidance part two (as said, it's her delayed concession speech and how that was viewed that has impacted retreat two - whether fair or not, the two are being percieved as a continuance).
See, now this is what we call pivoting. People explained to you why you were wrong to expect her to be visible from a policy perspective, fighting Trump or whatever you want, to in your words, "sway you" with a "future action" that will make you "for her." Once it was explained to you that doing so would be an affront to the peaceful transition of power upon which our democracy is built, and that Biden, Sanders and Obama are in different positions as they are actually holding elected office, you accepted that you were wrong but could not bring yourself to admit it. So you've pivoted. Now it is somehow about "PR"?

With due respect, friend, I think you are either completely ignorant as to how things work post-election (or perhaps too young to have paid attention before or understand why these traditions exist) or you are just talking out of your ass to save face and avoid admitting you were wrong.

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Old 12-15-2016, 08:25 PM   #261
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No. I said in order for me to be for her, I would need to see her publicly take action. I never said what that action was. People just naturally thought that meant either be offensive or defensive when I said nothing of the sort and then stressed I didn't mean attack Trump. You always took it as me saying revolution which I never did and have even told you repeatedly that that isn't what I meant. Action just means that action - it doesn't mean offensive nor defensive, it is by it's very definition "to act." And yes her disappearing has made me further against her than I already have been. Because I view that as retreating, which although I sympathize with it do not align with it at all. She can still be out there without being offensive or defensive. Personally her disappearing has only pushed me further away and I was already away. Just like people called her out for delaying the concession speech, I see this the same way.

To me, I'm not wrong because it is my opinion that she should be more up front and center or at least come out once instead of turning into a running joke. To you I am wrong because you don't agree with my opinion. But if you want to view me as wrong, as I have said - since the BEGINNING view me as wrong. I don't see where the big confusion in that is? As said, for the millionth time now, have and voice your opinion whatever that is. I'm not someone who cares about swaying people. That's just not my nature. If I'm wrong to you then I'm wrong to you, I respect that and have stated that since the beginning. Last reply since you're starting to make me feel like Dormmamu in 'Dr. Strange' in the end, no more round robin. Think what you want to think, I've said that since the beginning that I respect your opinion. No need to drag this in circles, man. Peace.

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Old 12-15-2016, 08:30 PM   #262
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No. I said in order for me to be for her, I would need to see her publicly take action. I never said what that action was. People just naturally thought that meant either be offensive or defensive when I said nothing of the sort and then stressed I didn't mean attack Trump. You always took it as me saying revolution which I never did and have even told you repeatedly that that isn't what I meant. And that is evident for everyone to see. Action just means that action - it doesn't mean offensive nor defensive, it is by it's very definition "to act." And yes her disappearing has made me further against her than I already have been. Because I view that as retreating, which although I sympathize with it do not align with it at all. She can still be out there without being offensive or defensive. Personally her disappearing has only pushed me further away and I was already away. Just like people called her out for delaying the concession speech, I see this the same way.

To me, I'm not wrong because it is my opinion that she should be more up front and center or at least come out once instead of turning into a running joke. To you I am wrong because you don't agree with my opinion. But if you want to view me as wrong, as I have said - since the BEGINNING view me as wrong. I don't see where the big confusion in that is? This is my last reply to you because all this is - is a round robin. God forbid someone doesn't share the same opinion as you do. As said, for the millionth time now, have and voice your opinion whatever that is. I'm not someone who cares about swaying people. That's just not my nature. If I'm wrong to you then I'm wrong to you, I respect that and have stated that since the beginning. Last reply since I really can't repeat myself for the hundredth time.
And now we get the ultimate safety net of the person who knows they are wrong but just cannot bring themself to admit it, "its my opinion!"

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Old 12-15-2016, 08:38 PM   #263
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And now we get the ultimate safety net of the person who knows they are wrong but just cannot bring themself to admit it, "its my opinion!"
Believe whatever you want man, I respect that and have since my second or third reply to you. To me differences are awesome, that people see the world differently which is why I've embraced that since the start. To me there's never been an argument, cause not my way. Peace, brother

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Old 12-15-2016, 09:54 PM   #264
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

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And now we get the ultimate safety net of the person who knows they are wrong but just cannot bring themself to admit it, "its my opinion!"
It's funny that you used the word "ultimate".....

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Old 12-16-2016, 01:35 PM   #265
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Hillary represents the modern elitist neo-liberalism that America just rejected supremely, from the right to a huge amount of progressive Democrats. In fact the Democratic party is hard at work at disassociating itself with the kind of Democratic Party that Hillary represented and that's why she's staying out of the picture. People want her to go away, rightly or wrongly, and she does nobody but herself any service by making appearances. It actually would make her look like she can't take a loss and is more self-serving and in need of attention.

I agree with your notion that America did choose her, but optics are important, and people just would not take her being out constantly in the limelight well considering how many anti-Hillary people there. I just think we disagree on what good it would do for her to be out there.
She's doing the right thing for the country, the party and for herself by keeping a low profile, I agree with that. She wanted to be President because she is both ambitious and she felt she could do the country some good, which I find no fault with, but she seems to be a person who wants to keep things private, hence the secrecy.

The Democrats have a ton of work to do...it is not good for the country for either party to be weak, and that party is in pathetic shape right now. I will say if there was ever a chance for a third party to step up at all, now would be it because they are so weak, but there's no party out there with the party/personnel to do that, and most libertarian fiscal concerns (which are their biggest concerns) are covered adequately by the Republicans.

But every second the Democrats keep with the old Pelosi guard, the more they decline. It's going to take at least a decade for them to get back even, and that is a best case scenario.

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Old 12-16-2016, 01:47 PM   #266
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Default Re: Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

Yep, the Democrats could have showed the world they learned from their mistakes in this campaign by NOT electing Pelosi as minority leader once again in the House....they just do not get it.

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Old 12-16-2016, 02:39 PM   #267
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Schumer (NY) and Pelosi (San Francisco, CA) should not be the leaders of the Democratic party in Congress. The party needs to start working on the geography problem.

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Old 12-16-2016, 03:01 PM   #268
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Schumer (NY) and Pelosi (San Francisco, CA) should not be the leaders of the Democratic party in Congress. The party needs to start working on the geography problem.
It's a matter of age and background as well. The roots of the Democratic Party once it became a party of decency is in TR's Republican Party, then going forward to FDR's New Deal. The absolute very first constituency of the Democrats should be working class people of all backgrounds. All of their other advocacy spurs off from that.

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Old 12-16-2016, 03:45 PM   #269
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Which really should be the DNC chair, right? While they may be the highest ranking Democrats in government, the nitty gritty of running the party really shouldn't be the congressman's responsibility.

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Old 12-16-2016, 03:52 PM   #270
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I would not this election as any sort of mandate. Trumps margins of winning the key states in the electoral college were very thin.
I would agree that it's no mandate for Trump, but it is a very important moment of self-reflection for the democrats that their strategies and candidate could not beat literally the worst candidate for President in US history in those swing states they needed. When you have traditionally blue states go red running against a racist charlatan, there were clearly issues, haha.

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Old 12-17-2016, 06:22 AM   #271
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I have seen many older people, and a lot from WOMEN for Hillary (which no our anger for Trump (minority or not) will NEVER truly match up to what this means to them - I think as men this is something we must take into account that no matter how angry over it, we don't know what this meant to them (especially that she lost to a self confessed groper and misogynist)), growing apathetic and retreating in the same manner that Hillary has. Will seeing their leader and inspiration emboldened act as an inspiring tool for those people? No doubt.

As said a machine can only be strong when all of the cogs are in working order, not by scrapping cogs into the junk heap. This, is going to take them all.
Trump won among white women. They don't seem to mind the groper too much , weirdly.

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Old 12-17-2016, 07:56 AM   #272
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Trump won among white women. They don't seem to mind the groper too much , weirdly.
Those that didn't stand behind him of all races, creeds, and nationalities.

In other words, there is no monolith.

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Old 12-17-2016, 09:26 AM   #273
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Yep, the Democrats could have showed the world they learned from their mistakes in this campaign by NOT electing Pelosi as minority leader once again in the House....they just do not get it.
In fairness, the guy who ran against Pelosi, Tim Ryan, is a protege of hers with nearly identical positions. His run against her screamed of opportunism. A shark smelled blood in the water and tried to use it to his advantage.

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Old 12-17-2016, 10:59 AM   #274
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In fairness, the guy who ran against Pelosi, Tim Ryan, is a protege of hers with nearly identical positions. His run against her screamed of opportunism. A shark smelled blood in the water and tried to use it to his advantage.
Not saying this is the reason he should have won but Ryan won a district that is the exact reason Clinton lost(lots of working white class people in the mid west). it would send a message hey we haven't forgot you.

The optics of a California House leader coupled with a NY Senate Leader doesn't look good given the results of the election and what they say about the Democrat party

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Old 12-17-2016, 02:14 PM   #275
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Trump won among white women. They don't seem to mind the groper too much , weirdly.
More specifically, rural, white, high school educated, first time voting women.

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Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase.
~Martin Luther King Jr.~
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