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Old 05-18-2013, 05:56 PM   #776
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Default Re: Agents of SHIELD TV series for ABC - General Discussion

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Stop asking me obvious and rhetorical questions. Read a comic book or something and find out why. It's clear and obvious and the reason they brought back Coulson.

As for Bucky and Red Skull dying "off-screen", yeah right, that still counts as having them die in the movie. We saw Bucky fall off a freaking 40 story high train and Red Skull get "incinerated" as far as context of the movie goes. Furthermore, we didn't actually see Coulson's body after his supposed death either not to mention Maria Hill clearly suggested that Fury lied about one thing.
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Old 05-18-2013, 06:09 PM   #777
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Crimson the same argument could be used for Coulson. It was Fury that said he had died, who's to say he wasn't lying about that just like he was about the cards?
That's true, but Coulson got stabbed through the chest with a gigantic spear. He's not surviving that.

I'm not saying it can't possibly work, I'm just saying I hope there's a good explanation. It's a mistake, IMO, to erase what was supposed to be an emotional death just because a character is popular. That's the mistake comics make repeatedly (and yes, I do read comics).

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Old 05-18-2013, 06:16 PM   #778
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Default Re: Agents of SHIELD TV series for ABC - General Discussion

Of course he could survive that.

I know two people who got shot in the head and they're still alive.

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Old 05-18-2013, 06:36 PM   #779
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Default Re: Agents of SHIELD TV series for ABC - General Discussion

Here's a scenario no one is thinking about S.W.O.R.D could have saved Coulson. Remember Wheadon did create them. It would make sense as S.W.O.R.D. does exist (Thor deleted scene). S.W.O.R.D could have some alien tech that helps.

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Old 05-18-2013, 06:58 PM   #780
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Default Re: Agents of SHIELD TV series for ABC - General Discussion

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I'm not saying it can't possibly work, I'm just saying I hope there's a good explanation. It's a mistake, IMO, to erase what was supposed to be an emotional death just because a character is popular. That's the mistake comics make repeatedly (and yes, I do read comics).
Agreed.


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Here's a scenario no one is thinking about S.W.O.R.D could have saved Coulson. Remember Wheadon did create them. It would make sense as S.W.O.R.D. does exist (Thor deleted scene). S.W.O.R.D could have some alien tech that helps.
What happens in that scene?

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Old 05-18-2013, 07:00 PM   #781
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Default Re: Agents of SHIELD TV series for ABC - General Discussion

Selvig is talking to some students and he says they're going to cross reference some notes using SWORD and SHIELD findings.

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Old 05-18-2013, 07:01 PM   #782
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Default Re: Agents of SHIELD TV series for ABC - General Discussion

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Ew, no. The less influence from the current series, the better. I can't stand Matt Fraction's take on Clint.
What's wrong with it? I've only ever read Clint in Avengers books, so I like seeing him go solo.

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Old 05-18-2013, 07:02 PM   #783
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Fraction's Hawkeye is great, don't know what he's talking about.

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Old 05-18-2013, 07:05 PM   #784
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Yeh, if Hawkeye is going to turn up again I hope they take a bit more from Fraction's series.

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Old 05-18-2013, 07:40 PM   #785
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Of course he could survive that.

I know two people who got shot in the head and they're still alive.
Sorry about your friends. It's not the same thing, though. Getting stabbed through either the aorta or the heart is game over for you.

But for the sake or argument, let's say it wasn't fatal and that the giant spear only punctured his lung. Was this part of some elaborate plan by Fury that Coulson get himself stabbed (but not fatally) so that the team could gel together? What was his plan if Loki had moved the spear a half inch to the right and cut the heart? The death scene wasn't broadcast to the Avengers (they only heard comms coming though their ear pieces, I guess) so why show it to the audience at all?

The only real answer here is that he died. Either what's walking around calling himself Coulson now is an LMD (my guess), or SHIELD has some alien tech that they used to repair him. I'm leaning toward LMD, because it fits with Gregg's recent quote where he says that Coulson "thinks he knows" how he came back. That's the only scenario I see where it doesn't cheapen the one and only major death in the MCU so far.

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Old 05-18-2013, 08:00 PM   #786
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Default Re: Agents of SHIELD TV series for ABC - General Discussion

Or he didn't die, (Cuz you don't know if he was stabbed through the heart or lung or wherever. He got stabbed. That's all we know for sure.)Fury took the opportunity to lie and say he died in an attempt to bring the team together so they would save the world from an alien invasion.....which is pretty much what actually happened.

He didn't have to plan it from the beginning. I'm sure he didn't plan for Coulson to "die" so he could use it as a uniting catalyst. He's a smart dude. Which means he came up with it on the fly. Which would have happened whether he really died, was only seriously injured, or was resurrected by alien technology, etc, etc.

Either way, all of it is speculation....but I'm willing to bet he simply didn't die, and Fury just lied. It's easier.

Simplest answer is usually the correct one.

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Old 05-18-2013, 09:31 PM   #787
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Default Re: Agents of SHIELD TV series for ABC - General Discussion

Personally, I'm hoping Coulson did die and the guy we're seeing in Agents of SHIELD is an LMD. Great way to introduce LMDs, which are a big part of SHIELD lore, and it creates an instant character arc for Coulson 2.0.

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What's wrong with it? I've only ever read Clint in Avengers books, so I like seeing him go solo.
Clint seems like an amateurish idiot, for the most part. The characterization was off in the issues I read before I dropped it. It may have gotten better since then, but I doubt it. Fraction makes a habit of discarding practically everything established about a character and doing whatever he wants.

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Old 05-18-2013, 10:38 PM   #788
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Personally, I'm hoping Coulson did die and the guy we're seeing in Agents of SHIELD is an LMD. Great way to introduce LMDs, which are a big part of SHIELD lore, and it creates an instant character arc for Coulson 2.0.
This is a theory I've been mulling over for a few weeks or so but haven't mentioned as I didn't want to go on record with the (fairly half-baked) LMD idea.

And now you've said it first. And must therefore be destroyed.

*pewpewlazerspewpew*

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Old 05-18-2013, 10:42 PM   #789
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Default Re: Agents of SHIELD TV series for ABC - General Discussion

Dude, that theory's been around pretty much since Coulson was confirmed as coming back.

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Old 05-18-2013, 10:44 PM   #790
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Dude, that theory's been around pretty much since Coulson was confirmed as coming back.
Has it? I thought the Coulson that Loki stabbed was supposed to be the LMD.

I'll just crawl back into this closet then.

>.>

<.<

*closes door*

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Old 05-18-2013, 10:49 PM   #791
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But seriously a poster on a different board sold me on a 'Coulson as Vision' scene the other day.

Like sometime around the end of Season 1, Coulson gets stabbed through the chest a second time, like a mirror scene from Avengers, only this time he simply turns around, totally intangible and unwounded, eyes glowing red, says something like "That barely worked the first time." then lets loose with heat vision/ or the forehead jewel blast.

Which I thought was pretty cool & badass, despite not begin a fan of the CoulsonVision theory.

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Old 05-18-2013, 10:49 PM   #792
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Default Re: Agents of SHIELD TV series for ABC - General Discussion

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Stop asking me obvious and rhetorical questions. Read a comic book or something and find out why. It's clear and obvious and the reason they brought back Coulson.

As for Bucky and Red Skull dying "off-screen", yeah right, that still counts as having them die in the movie. We saw Bucky fall off a freaking 40 story high train and Red Skull get "incinerated" as far as context of the movie goes. Furthermore, we didn't actually see Coulson's body after his supposed death either not to mention Maria Hill clearly suggested that Fury lied about one thing.
I know it might be hard for someone like you to do it....but I really suggest you try not to be so rude.

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Old 05-18-2013, 10:50 PM   #793
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Has it? I thought the Coulson that Loki stabbed was supposed to be the LMD.

I'll just crawl back into this closet then.

>.>

<.<

*closes door*
Oh, maybe. I mean, I know people have been mentioning LMDs for a long time, but I always just assumed it would be the post-death Coulson who's an LMD. I mean, how would Fury have known Coulson was gonna get stabbed beforehand? Or is he just randomly swapping LMDs in for agents now and then for... fun, I guess, or...? It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me for pre-death Coulson to have been an LMD.

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Old 05-18-2013, 10:53 PM   #794
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Oh, maybe. I mean, I know people have been mentioning LMDs for a long time, but I always just assumed it would be the post-death Coulson who's an LMD. I mean, how would Fury have known Coulson was gonna get stabbed beforehand? Or is he just randomly swapping LMDs in for agents now and then for... fun, I guess, or...? It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me for pre-death Coulson to have been an LMD.
Well now that you point it out... I guess I never gave it much thought beyond people saying "Coulson was a LMD!" because it seemed pretty stupid.

Mystery!

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Old 05-18-2013, 10:54 PM   #795
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But seriously a poster on a different board sold me on a 'Coulson as Vision' scene the other day.

Like sometime around the end of Season 1, Coulson gets stabbed through the chest a second time, like a mirror scene from Avengers, only this time he simply turns around, totally intangible and unwounded, eyes glowing red, says something like "That barely worked the first time." then lets loose with heat vision/ or the forehead jewel blast.

Which I thought was pretty cool & badass, despite not begin a fan of the CoulsonVision theory.
Oooh, no, Coulson as an LMD is cool; Coulson as the Vision would be really, really, really not cool. I hate that idea. The Vision has an identity and, while I get that it's unlikely for him to be an Ultron-built synthezoid with Wonder Man's brain engrams in the movies, it definitely shouldn't be the same identity as SHIELD Agent Phil Coulson.

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Old 05-19-2013, 01:04 AM   #796
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Yeah I like the LMD idea, but I think Vision would have to wait for Ultron to appear first.

Unless they first introduce Vision that leads to Ultron

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Old 05-19-2013, 01:09 AM   #797
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Coulson as Mar-Vell! ..or just as Coulson either's fine

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Old 05-19-2013, 01:16 AM   #798
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Or he didn't die, (Cuz you don't know if he was stabbed through the heart or lung or wherever. He got stabbed. That's all we know for sure.)Fury took the opportunity to lie and say he died in an attempt to bring the team together so they would save the world from an alien invasion.....which is pretty much what actually happened.

He didn't have to plan it from the beginning. I'm sure he didn't plan for Coulson to "die" so he could use it as a uniting catalyst. He's a smart dude. Which means he came up with it on the fly. Which would have happened whether he really died, was only seriously injured, or was resurrected by alien technology, etc, etc.

Either way, all of it is speculation....but I'm willing to bet he simply didn't die, and Fury just lied. It's easier.

Simplest answer is usually the correct one.

Absolutely.
Fury didn't concoct some elaborate conspiracy theory here requiring Coulson to play martyr so that the team "would have something to avenge"; instead, it was simply a case of circumstance dictating a ruse to goad two key members of the team into action.

People completely misinterpret the whole Coulson death scene as having some grand meaning, and being the centerpiece of the movie and the catalyst to bring the team together. That's a complete misread of the plot at that point.

Look: the Avengers were going to save the world, or die trying. They hadn't given up. Whether Coulson died, or ANY of their number (core or support) died, they were going to fight on to the last man or woman. What other choice did they have? Roll over and let Loki and Chitauri enslave the world and say, "oh well, we tried"? It's absolutely silly to think the Avengers were on the edge of quit, and that Coulson is the only reason they got back together.

Here's the real deal, at that point: Hulk was AWOL. Fury and the rest of the team probably considered him a deserter, and too damn dangerous to stick with the team anyway, after his little "setback" on the Helicarrier. Thor had crashed to earth, god(s) only knew where, but it was probably a safe bet that he survived the fall SOMEWHERE (he's The Goddamn Thor-Man), and would definitely return to kick Loki's ass to Hel and back. Widow and Hawkeye were SHIELD agents, and would follow orders unquestioningly, no matter what; so they were still in the fight. Cap was still in the fight. The only one who was shaky at that point....?

Tony Stark.

Yeah, the fight went out of him, or a good chunk of it did. Fury saw that. Cap saw that. They needed him back, because their two biggest guns --- Thor and Hulk --- were unaccounted for. Iron Man was the biggest gun they had left, so they sure as hell didn't need him going all PTSD "game over, man."

So Coulson gets stabbed by Loki....but not fatally. Fury rushes to Coulson's side with the medics; medics say it's going to be touch and go, but he might pull through. Fury realizes his team is scattered, and he needs Iron Man to head up what's left of the remainder. He figures the best way to pep-talk him is to give him a martyr to avenge. So he orders the medics to take Coulson to a secret location to work on him, and meanwhile lies outright to Tony and Cap and tells them, basically, "Coulson Died For Your Sins....Avenge Him."

And it works, for Tony. Again, with Cap, I don't think he needed anything to keep him going, because he's Captain Frickin' America, and his country is being invaded. *Of course* he's gonna fight; he didn't need the subterfuge of the bloody collectors' cards.

So the whole frame-up is there *just* for Tony's benefit; and, I suspect, for RDJ's. He gets his scenery-chewing moment, audiences shed a tear, and we're back in battle. Thor and Hulk return soon enough, still eager for Loki's head, and the tide of battle turns quickly back in humanity's favor.

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Old 05-19-2013, 01:56 AM   #799
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Personally, I'm hoping Coulson did die and the guy we're seeing in Agents of SHIELD is an LMD. Great way to introduce LMDs, which are a big part of SHIELD lore, and it creates an instant character arc for Coulson 2.0.
I really hope that isn't the case, for no other reason than I think introducing artificially intelligent robots that are completely indistinguishable from regular people is bit too much at this point in the series. I mean, it would make Jarvis seem like an antique.

Unless you're saying someone else would be controlling the Coulson LMD from behind the scenes. Which might work, but I still don't like it.

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Oh, maybe. I mean, I know people have been mentioning LMDs for a long time, but I always just assumed it would be the post-death Coulson who's an LMD. I mean, how would Fury have known Coulson was gonna get stabbed beforehand? Or is he just randomly swapping LMDs in for agents now and then for... fun, I guess, or...? It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me for pre-death Coulson to have been an LMD.
Coulson was about to go confront a God he had practically no chance of besting. Seems like as good a time as any to swap out. He could then just be remote controlling his decoy from the armory.

Not that I think that's what happened. But it's better than the show's Coulson being an LMD.

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Old 05-19-2013, 02:30 AM   #800
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Well the rumor is basically what Sam mentioned. Nick does say the emt's called it but called WHAT? He led people to believe Phil died when he really hadn't

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