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Old 02-23-2018, 02:58 PM   #601
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Default Re: The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread - - -

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My regret is that our manager bought a player to play in the same position as our best attacker and continues to stubbornly leave the right side of our attack as dead space.
Don't get me started on it man

If I was the manager, for the remainder of the season, Sanchez would be playing on the RW & nowhere else because we literally have nobody capable of playing there correctly, Lingard should be the alternative. Martial & Rashford duking it out for the LW slot. Obviously depending on what system we're playing through the middle would be Pogba or Mata & whoever plays there would have the license to go wherever the **** they want on the pitch as long as they can either get on the ball or support Lukaku.

I know you disagree, or I think you do anyway, but I still want a left footed LW signed & a right footed RW to be signed. We've been devoid of real width even arguably the last few seasons of SAF's reign & it makes me sick... well it doesn't really but it annoys me that a Manchester United team doesn't have any width be it from wingers or fullbacks & it's been that way for 8 or 9 seasons IMO.

But yeah, Sanchez should be our RW & whatever system we play from a midfield perspective, should be to get the most out of Pogba as we're undoubtedly much better with him in the side than without.

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Old 02-23-2018, 03:04 PM   #602
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I agree with that up front. Martial/Rashford left wing, Lukaku centre, Sanchez right wing. Then 2 holding mids allowing Pogba to do his thing without being restricted. Pogba is the kind of player you can build a team around if you plan it out correctly.

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Old 02-23-2018, 03:47 PM   #603
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The defenders part I might buy but the attacking part doesn't fly. There's zero plan of attack in most of our games, we do nothing inventive or out of the box, it's pass to the wing and hope the guy gets past his marker and plays a decent ball in.

Our attacking options are great, a front four of Sanchez-Mata-Martial behind Lukaku would be legitimately competing with other managers. Just Mourinho's formations prove the point, he buys Pogba to play him as a #6 when his entire career at Juventus was built on him being a #8 in a 3-man midfield. Jose's fear of other teams is his worst attribute.
Except that isn't true. I watch the matches there is a lot of play at the top of the box. A lot of little passes to attempt to unlock something. But what we have is not exactly some prime attacking force., that doesn't really match that well.

He doesn't play Pogba as a #6. He plays him like he is in the Keane/Scholes 2 man midfield, where he is asked to be more box to box. Pogba has like 10 assist this season. He isn't being asked to defend all the time. That's just not true. The problem with Pogba is he doesn't get up the field enough, which is clearly a him thing, as even Matic ventures forward in the 2 man midfield.

Mata is slow and is only really effective in the middle. Martial runs hot and cold. We all know what Lukaku's limitations are and Sanchez is new. We are treating this like we have a great front line. We don't. Also if you want to play 3 behind the striker, then Pogba has to play in a 2 man midfield.

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Old 02-23-2018, 03:47 PM   #604
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Default Re: The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread - - -

Pogba-Matic-Herrera, Pogba and Herrera as 8s, Martial/Rashford-Lukaku-Sanchez in a 4-3-3 - it's honestly that simple. But Mourinho is too frightened that if we lose possession the world will somehow come crashing down and all our defenders will turn into newborn giraffes.

On the odd occasion we play an irrelevant game like the League Cup and Mourinho plays a 4-3-3 we've looked a lot more dynamic. 4-2-3-1 with the players we have is the ****ing pits.

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Old 02-23-2018, 03:55 PM   #605
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Except that isn't true. I watch the matches there is a lot of play at the top of the box. A lot of little passes to attempt to unlock something. But what we have is exactly some prime attacking force.

He doesn't play Pogba as a #6. He plays him like he is in the Keane/Scholes 2 man midfield, where he is asked to be more box to box. Pogba has like 10 assist this season. He isn't being asked to defend all the time. That's just not true. The problem with Pogba is he doesn't get up the field enough, which is clearly a him thing, as even Matic ventures forward in the 2 man midfield.

Mata is slow. Martial runs hot and cold. We all know what Lukaku's limitations are and Sanchez is new. We are treating this like we have a great front line. We don't. Also if you want to play 3 behind the striker, then Pogba has to play in a 2 man midfield.
There is a lot of play at the top of the box, but we just aren't very good at it. I think we're way too imprecise and we durdle at the edge of the box too much. Our crosses are these haphazard shots in the dark instead of trying to find feet or playing into dangerous space.

I can see a distinct difference with Pogba when he's played as a 6 and when he's allowed further up field, and while he may not be as much defending as a traditional 6 he's doing more defensive work than he is attacking work, which is a waste of his talent.

Our attack is just fine to be fair, Lukaku has over 20 goals in all competitions, and if Martial could get some consistent game time he'd probably blow more hot than cold. Sanchez I agree needs time to adapt, but I think it's unfair to suggest we don't have at the very least a quite capable attack.

As far as formations go I honestly think the 4-2-3-1 is a terrible formation, we have the players for a good 4-3-3 and yet we never see it.

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Old 02-23-2018, 04:02 PM   #606
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There is a lot of play at the top of the box, but we just aren't very good at it. I think we're way too imprecise and we durdle at the edge of the box too much. Our crosses are these haphazard shots in the dark instead of trying to find feet or playing into dangerous space.

I can see a distinct difference with Pogba when he's played as a 6 and when he's allowed further up field, and while he may not be as much defending as a traditional 6 he's doing more defensive work than he is attacking work, which is a waste of his talent.

Our attack is just fine to be fair, Lukaku has over 20 goals in all competitions, and if Martial could get some consistent game time he'd probably blow more hot than cold. Sanchez I agree needs time to adapt, but I think it's unfair to suggest we don't have at the very least a quite capable attack.

As far as formations go I honestly think the 4-2-3-1 is a terrible formation, we have the players for a good 4-3-3 and yet we never see it.
Yes. And that is what you get with the talent we have. Outside of Pogba it is either really young, old or limited in general.

Anyone who plays in our midfield has to do some defending. The backline is too **** and we will be overrun against good teams.

We have a capable attack. We do not have a great one that is going to be unlocking defenses on its own. It is why we play some of the odd fullback combinations we do.

We played 4-3-3. It didn't go all that well. Also who is the third midfielder? Herrera? He's hurt again. Also how much defending does Martial do to play 4-3-3 consistently?

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Old 02-23-2018, 04:24 PM   #607
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Yes. And that is what you get with the talent we have. Outside of Pogba it is either really young, old or limited in general.
Nah, I can't believe that. Not knowing how Sanchez played at Barcelona and Arsenal, not knowing how Mata played at Valencia and Chelsea, and not knowing what Pogba managed at Juventus. We should be unlocking defenses far more easily than we are.

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Anyone who plays in our midfield has to do some defending. The backline is too **** and we will be overrun against good teams.
Sure, at the moment that's definitely true. If Rojo and Bailly are both fit again I'd like to see if that approach changes. Other teams play with a tactual setup that shows the manager trusts his defenders to do their jobs 1v1, it's clear Mourinho doesn't have that trust in any of our players bar Valencia right now.

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We have a capable attack. We do not have a great one that is going to be unlocking defenses on its own. It is why we play some of the odd fullback combinations we do.

We played 4-3-3. It didn't go all that well. Also who is the third midfielder? Herrera? He's hurt again. Also how much defending does Martial do to play 4-3-3 consistently?
I honestly think we do, we have an attack that shouldn't look the fifth best in the league as far as performances go. What happened to that confidence we had in the beginning of the season? Our players weren't like deer in headlights then, but it's deteriorated over the season.

Herrera ideally, but I didn't see he was injured. His decline is one of the biggest mysteries of Mourinho's two years. Herrera was one of the only bright spots under LvG, and he was rather good last season when he got to play. How he's turned into a guy that won't ever play a forward pass now is a mystery. Martial's work rate actually increased impressively this season, he tracks back a lot more now.

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Old 02-23-2018, 04:31 PM   #608
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Nah, I can't believe that. Not knowing how Sanchez played at Barcelona and Arsenal, not knowing how Mata played at Valencia and Chelsea, and not knowing what Pogba managed at Juventus. We should be unlocking defenses far more easily than we are.
Sanchez needs to learn his teammates. Give him a second.

Mata on the right does the best he can, but he is a liability and as he has gotten older, his physical limitations are more apparent.

Where do you think Pogba plays for France?

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Sure, at the moment that's definitely true. If Rojo and Bailly are both fit again I'd like to see if that approach changes. Other teams play with a tactual setup that shows the manager trusts his defenders to do their jobs 1v1, it's clear Mourinho doesn't have that trust in any of our players bar Valencia right now.
Rojo is never fit for long and the rest are good a disaster every game. Bailly is are only really good defender and well, he too seems hurt quite often. Also just does really stupid things.

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I honestly think we do, we have an attack that shouldn't look the fifth best in the league as far as performances go. What happened to that confidence we had in the beginning of the season? Our players weren't like deer in headlights then, but it's deteriorated over the season.

Herrera ideally, but I didn't see he was injured. His decline is one of the biggest mysteries of Mourinho's two years. Herrera was one of the only bright spots under LvG, and he was rather good last season when he got to play. How he's turned into a guy that won't ever play a forward pass now is a mystery. Martial's work rate actually increased impressively this season, he tracks back a lot more now.
It has deteriorated as our defense did, as injuries started happening.

Herrera did his hamstring in the CL game. Why Pogba came on. Herrera had just come back.

Would Martial's tracking back not be down to how Jose has handled him? His tough love?

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Old 02-24-2018, 04:32 AM   #609
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Default Re: The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread - - -

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Sanchez needs to learn his teammates. Give him a second.

Mata on the right does the best he can, but he is a liability and as he has gotten older, his physical limitations are more apparent.

Where do you think Pogba plays for France?


Rojo is never fit for long and the rest are good a disaster every game. Bailly is are only really good defender and well, he too seems hurt quite often. Also just does really stupid things.


It has deteriorated as our defense did, as injuries started happening.

Herrera did his hamstring in the CL game. Why Pogba came on. Herrera had just come back.

Would Martial's tracking back not be down to how Jose has handled him? His tough love?
Martial has always tracked back, as far back as his first season under LvG. The problem now is that he had finally seemed to find his groove this season on the left and now he’s being asked to play on the right in order to accommodate Sanchez.

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Old 02-24-2018, 07:06 AM   #610
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Yeah, I think considering the talent on paper we shouldn't be playing like we are. Spurs, Liverpool, City, Arsenal and even Chelsea have more attacking coherence than we do. The number of misplaced passes between our forwards makes it abundantly evident Mourinho does nothing to coach the attack, he just expects them to make it happen.

It can't be coincidental that the attacking players all seem to regress under Mourinho while the defensive ones flourish. Mata, Mkhitaryan, Pogba, Rashford, even Sanchez in the short spell he's been here, they're visibly reluctant to try anything too adventurous on the pitch and play like scared kids. I like the defensive solidity we show and how difficult we are to beat, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt we won't win a single relevant trophy under Mourinho.
It's definitely down to Mourinho that our attack look like a bunch of aimless strangers, we simply don't look coached, that is why he's already pushing Martial out and Sanchez in and why Rashford's game time is dwindling, these are players under Klopp, Guardiola or Poch that would thrive as part of a well drilled attacking unit, Jose doesn't bother with that, he only cares about setting the team up to be structurally sound and defensively tight, it's why he wants experienced players up front who he can just leave to their own devices and hope they can make something happen.

I agree we wont win either of the big trophies while he's here, he's outdated and it's just a matter of seeing if he implodes first or the crowd turn as he ostracises our best young talent and serves up trash football week after weeek.

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Don't get me started on it man

If I was the manager, for the remainder of the season, Sanchez would be playing on the RW & nowhere else because we literally have nobody capable of playing there correctly, Lingard should be the alternative. Martial & Rashford duking it out for the LW slot. Obviously depending on what system we're playing through the middle would be Pogba or Mata & whoever plays there would have the license to go wherever the **** they want on the pitch as long as they can either get on the ball or support Lukaku.
Agreed, Sanchez has a lot of experience playing on the right so I don't know why we aren't using him there, and if we never intended to use him on the right then we never should have signed him, it just reeks of Mourinho wanting to marginalize Martial soi he can satisfy his need for older players.

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I know you disagree, or I think you do anyway, but I still want a left footed LW signed & a right footed RW to be signed. We've been devoid of real width even arguably the last few seasons of SAF's reign & it makes me sick... well it doesn't really but it annoys me that a Manchester United team doesn't have any width be it from wingers or fullbacks & it's been that way for 8 or 9 seasons IMO.

But yeah, Sanchez should be our RW & whatever system we play from a midfield perspective, should be to get the most out of Pogba as we're undoubtedly much better with him in the side than without.
I think the width needs to come from the fullbacks, that's our problem with using two aging wingers, neither has the engine to consistently get up and down the pitch, and both are wary of getting caught out of position as it's still not their nartural role.

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Old 02-24-2018, 07:30 AM   #611
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My opinion of Mourinho’s ability has got lower over the last few years certainly.

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Old 02-24-2018, 10:02 AM   #612
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Default Re: The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread - - -

Newcastle 2-0 up against Bournemouth in a bit of a 6 pointer.

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Old 02-24-2018, 10:07 AM   #613
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Newcastle 2-0 up against Bournemouth in a bit of a 6 pointer.
Yes! 2 from Gayle (happy for him) gives us a great chance here. I just want 3 points, don’t care about the score otherwise. 3 points now would really change things soon after other win.

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Old 02-24-2018, 01:22 PM   #614
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Agreed, Sanchez has a lot of experience playing on the right so I don't know why we aren't using him there, and if we never intended to use him on the right then we never should have signed him, it just reeks of Mourinho wanting to marginalize Martial soi he can satisfy his need for older players.
I agree 100%, of the LW, RW & CAM positions the 1 position we urgently needed addressing was the RW spot & we had more players than necessary to play as a CAM. So selling/swapping one was fine, but it should have been for a player in which we primarily planned to use on the RW.

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I think the width needs to come from the fullbacks, that's our problem with using two aging wingers, neither has the engine to consistently get up and down the pitch, and both are wary of getting caught out of position as it's still not their nartural role.
I don't agree that it has to come from the full backs alone, but I do agree that our lack of natural & younger fullbacks is a big contributor to our lack of width in this current side. Luke Shaw is our only recognised natural fullback.

Valencia isn't so bad, if he was 5 years younger when he had that sort of tank to get up & down the pitch, he was practically offering us a wingers threat & was competent defending.

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Old 02-24-2018, 04:40 PM   #615
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How many times are we going to come away with 1 point when we're on for 3?

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Old 02-25-2018, 03:43 AM   #616
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Default Re: The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread - - -

Liverpool looking great at the moment. Can, Firmino, Salah and Mane all score in 4-1 win against West Ham.

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Old 02-25-2018, 08:08 AM   #617
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1-0 spurs. Made a meal of that one. Should have had a couple of penalties and really should have scored more aurier and kane missing good chances. Bad day at the office but 3 points is what was needed.

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Old 02-25-2018, 08:47 AM   #618
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Yes, Lukaku!!

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Old 02-25-2018, 09:04 AM   #619
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1-1 at half time between United and Chelsea, only managed to catch the back end but it seems like Chelsea are looking the more threatening side.

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Old 02-25-2018, 10:00 AM   #620
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2-1 to United by some miracle going into 4 minutes of extra time.

Edit: And it ends 2-1 to United, I didn't manage to catch much of the game but it's a really positive result for United.

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Old 02-25-2018, 10:16 AM   #621
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Miracle?

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Old 02-25-2018, 10:18 AM   #622
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Default Re: The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread - - -

Utd really needed that! After months of not bothering, Chelsea now really have to play hard till the end of the season if they want top 4.

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Old 02-25-2018, 10:30 AM   #623
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Miracle?
Considering our recent form and our general record against the top 6 it feels pretty miraculous

Edit: I was also heavily considering United's display against Sevilla in midweek vs how Chelsea performed against Barcelona, and that felt like we had an uphill battle ahead of us.


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Old 02-25-2018, 10:40 AM   #624
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Sanchez needs to learn his teammates. Give him a second.

Mata on the right does the best he can, but he is a liability and as he has gotten older, his physical limitations are more apparent.

Where do you think Pogba plays for France?
Sanchez does need to acclimate, sure, and I think Mata unfortunately is beyond it and could do with replacing. As for Pogba and his duties for France, he usually has Kante, the human dynamo, doing all the chasing so he doesn't need to worry too much about his positioning and such, he plays more freely.

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Rojo is never fit for long and the rest are good a disaster every game. Bailly is are only really good defender and well, he too seems hurt quite often. Also just does really stupid things.
All true, but it's perplexing that our defense looked really solid a while back, even with Jones and Smalling, but it's gone backwards now.

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It has deteriorated as our defense did, as injuries started happening.

Herrera did his hamstring in the CL game. Why Pogba came on. Herrera had just come back.

Would Martial's tracking back not be down to how Jose has handled him? His tough love?
Fair enough, we've had to cope with an unfortunate string of injuries in the last while, particularly keeping our defense inconsistent. Martial's defensive contribution and positional discipline has definitely improved under Mourinho, but he did a fair enough amount of that with LvG too.

It's the attacking coherence that concerns me, our good attacking displays like today's are way too few and far between.

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Old 02-25-2018, 10:43 AM   #625
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Originally Posted by Hunter Rider View Post
It's definitely down to Mourinho that our attack look like a bunch of aimless strangers, we simply don't look coached, that is why he's already pushing Martial out and Sanchez in and why Rashford's game time is dwindling, these are players under Klopp, Guardiola or Poch that would thrive as part of a well drilled attacking unit, Jose doesn't bother with that, he only cares about setting the team up to be structurally sound and defensively tight, it's why he wants experienced players up front who he can just leave to their own devices and hope they can make something happen.
The confusing part is for the first 6-8 games this season we looked incredibly good, and our attackers were very confident on the play. They're a lot more withdrawn now and unadventurous, and I suspect it's just a lack of confidence that they clearly had when the season started. No doubt we'll dump another load of money into an attacker this summer, and maybe then we'll have hit the natural threshold of talent where coaching an attack doesn't matter and they'll just naturally do it themselves.

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I agree we wont win either of the big trophies while he's here, he's outdated and it's just a matter of seeing if he implodes first or the crowd turn as he ostracises our best young talent and serves up trash football week after weeek.
I hope the implosion doesn't happen, but unfortunately it doesn't seem like Mourinho ever has a quiet exit from any club. We'll have to wait and see, a lot of time and good favor has been bought with Chelsea win I'd imagine, hopefully we kick on and the attack is a little rejuvenated.

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