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Old 03-23-2008, 03:57 PM   #26
EasternComfort
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Default Re: The Right Vision of Health Care

"Single-Payer" Health Care Is Anything but Free
By Paul Hsieh (Colorado Springs Business Journal, September 28, 2007)

Michael Moore's latest movie "SiCKO" sings the praises of the Canadian "single-payer" socialized medical system. Some Americans want a similar system implemented in the United States. Defenders of the Canadian system frequently claim that patients don't have to worry about money when they're sick--the health care is free. But is this really true?

No.

First, it is ludicrous to think the system is free. Each citizen is forced to pay for his neighbors' medical care in the form of high taxes. (As a percentage of GDP, total taxation is 28 percent higher in Canada than in the United States.) The government, rather than individuals, then decides how that money is spent.

Even worse, in the name of "equal access" the government generally forbids patients from purchasing medical services outside of its system. Canadian law makes it difficult or impossible for citizens to spend their own honestly earned money on medically necessary care for themselves or their loved ones, even when both the doctor and the patient are willing.

To control costs, the government restricts access to crucial medical services via infamous waiting lists. This imposes a second, hidden, cost on patients: their time.

According to the Vancouver-based Fraser Institute, "Canadian doctors say patients wait almost twice as long for treatment than is clinically reasonable, . . . almost 18 weeks between the time they see their family physician and the time they receive treatment from a specialist."

Because of the waiting lists, mortality rates for treatable conditions such as breast cancer and prostate cancer are significantly higher in Canada than in the U.S. A Canadian woman who discovers a lump in her breast might wait for months before she receives the surgery and chemotherapy she needs, with the cancer cells multiplying rapidly as each week goes by. If she lived in the United States, she could receive treatment within days.

This tax on time is especially cruel because the burden falls hardest on the sickest patients, i.e., those with the least time to spare.

Consequently, Canadian patients routinely suffer and die while waiting for their "free" health care. The National Center for Policy Analysis notes, "During one 12-month period in Ontario, . . . 71 patients died waiting for coronary bypass surgery while 121 patients were removed from the list because they had become too sick to undergo surgery."

To guarantee "free" health care, a government must force the individual to pay for everyone else's medical care and limit his freedom to pay voluntarily for his own. With bureaucrats deciding who receives what, the individual is therefore forbidden from spending his money according to his own rational judgment (and the advice of his doctors) as to what's best for his health. When a government forces people to act against their own interests, it's no surprise that the results are misery and death.

Fortunately, Canadians are starting to recognize the problems inherent in "single-payer" health care and are taking very small steps towards limited private medicine. America must not repeat Canada's mistakes. As P. J. O'Rourke said, "If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free."

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Old 03-23-2008, 08:57 PM   #27
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Default Re: The Right Vision of Health Care

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Originally Posted by Mr Sparkle View Post
please don't assume to know what I believe in when it is obvious you don't.
But...if you support Universal Healthcare you DO want an increase in government size which requires more government control.

So...SuBe DID know what you believe in...you made it quite clear...

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Old 03-24-2008, 12:01 AM   #28
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Default Re: The Right Vision of Health Care

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You can't seriously take that away from what I've been saying. For a society to exist people need government to protect individual rights. If you choose to live in a society you must pay for such protections. If your anti-war such as I am that is the role of Democracy. If we followed the constitution a single President couldn't declare war all the "powers" must be involved. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
but, you said:

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Originally Posted by EasternComfort View Post
But when take from a individual before he even gets his money for something he may or my not support that is thievery.
so then, this applies to healthcare but NOT to wars that might or might not protect my rights? and then, we agree that this hinges on our differing definitions of " rights ".
I happen to think that as members of a society we have a right to NOT die.
I'm not saying you think we should die, I'm saying I think that healthcare in a society IS a right, that's exactly what the society is there for.

the government protects us from natural disasters and criminals does it not?
it protects our lives and in some cases our PROPERTY from damage and harm.
so, then, you think that the government should protect your house ( which I don't remember a house being a right ." right to a house " ?) a material possession.
but not your health?
which I might add is the most precious possession you happen to have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormin Norman
But...if you support Universal Healthcare you DO want an increase in government size which requires more government control.

So...SuBe DID know what you believe in...you made it quite clear...
no, you're operating under the assumption that to provide universal healthcare the government WOULD HAVE to grow substantially.
also, what's this " government control" thing I keep hearing about?
do hospitals now not operate under the laws and regulations stipulated by the government, are they maverick organizations unaccountable for violations and things like negligence or malpractice?

hate to break it to you, but the current system is already under government control.
that would be the point, again, of government.
so . no, it's not as clear as you'd make it out to be.
it's weird, when I talk about this, people are always like " ooohhh government control! scary!"
it's odd, because, well, the government, the US government controls one, if not THE largest arsenal in the world.
the deadliest fighting force in the world, tanks planes, bombs, weapons that would make you have nightmares from now until death.

but yeah, no, free healthcare.
THAT scares people.

I just don't get it.

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Old 03-24-2008, 12:06 AM   #29
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Default Re: The Right Vision of Health Care

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Originally Posted by EasternComfort View Post
"Single-Payer" Health Care Is Anything but Free
By Paul Hsieh (Colorado Springs Business Journal, September 28, 2007)

Michael Moore's latest movie "SiCKO" sings the praises of the Canadian "single-payer" socialized medical system. Some Americans want a similar system implemented in the United States. Defenders of the Canadian system frequently claim that patients don't have to worry about money when they're sick--the health care is free. But is this really true?

No.

.....( this goes on about wait times and other issues)
wow, so a system has problems.
you don't say, you mean it's NOT perfect.
but then, they aren't the US of A are they? should not the leader of the free world be able to provide healthcare for it's citizens?
but yeah.
citing a given of problems within a system is irrefutable proof that it doesn't work.
that's why if you look for problems of the American healthcare system, the for-profit system, you wouldn't find ANY issues would you?

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Old 03-28-2008, 04:51 PM   #30
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Default Discussion: Healthcare

I have an honest question.

Hillary and Hussein want to have government sponsored healthcare.

Anyone know any possible way they are going to do this without having our income taxes be 50% or more?

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Old 03-28-2008, 04:55 PM   #31
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Default Re: Healthcare

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Originally Posted by Malice View Post
I have an honest question.

Hillary and Hussein want to have government sponsored healthcare.

Anyone know any possible way they are going to do this without having our income taxes be 50% or more?
You can't call him by his middle name without being called a Racist!

But yeah, there is no way the Government can control Healthcare without raising your taxes by god-awfull amounts.

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Old 03-28-2008, 04:56 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by SupermanBeyond View Post
You can't call him by his middle name without being called a Racist!

But yeah, there is no way the Government can control Healthcare without raising your taxes by god-awfull amounts.
I did it just to see reactions...I for one dont care...
This is all about healthcare..

There is no possibility that this will occur without a huge tax increase...and I mean HUGE.

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Old 03-28-2008, 04:58 PM   #33
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Default Re: Healthcare

Studies show that if you reform the costs of healthcare at the same time we'll all save money.(consolidating financing and professionalizing the budget)

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Old 03-28-2008, 05:00 PM   #34
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Studies show that if you reform the costs of healthcare at the same time we'll all save money.(consolidating financing and professionalizing the budget)
You have got to be kidding me.
No single implementation of Socialized Healthcare that I know of is less than 50% taxes.

You cant "reform costs" that much.

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Old 03-28-2008, 05:02 PM   #35
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Default Re: Healthcare

Rhode Island did a study.Give it a read, its interesting.
http://cthealth.server101.com/ri_uni...are_report.htm

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Old 03-28-2008, 05:15 PM   #36
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Default Re: Healthcare

If government-run health care is such a great idea, then why do people pay thousands of dollars to come to the U.S. for operations? Why is Canada experiencing a severe shortage in qualified medical professionals? Why are the top medical experts in the world moving to America in order to practice?

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Old 03-28-2008, 05:22 PM   #37
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Default Re: Healthcare

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Originally Posted by EdRyder View Post
Rhode Island did a study.Give it a read, its interesting.
http://cthealth.server101.com/ri_uni...are_report.htm
Yeah, but the Boston University School of Public Health is really just a bunch of tax and spend liberals that want to take our guns away and kill babies, so why would we listen to them?

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Old 03-28-2008, 05:26 PM   #38
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Default Re: Healthcare

Theres also the model Wisconsin did if you dont like Boston.Again, spending would jump from 3% to 6%. With the opposition complaining about an employer increase of 12%..Just dont know where you're getting this 50%? Your butt?

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Old 03-28-2008, 05:27 PM   #39
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Default Re: Healthcare

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Theres also the model Wisconsin did if you dont like Boston.Again, spending would jump from 3% to 6%. With the opposition complaining about an employer increase of 12%..Just dont know where you're getting this 50%? Your butt?
Are you addressing 1 person or 2?

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Old 03-28-2008, 05:33 PM   #40
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Theres also the model Wisconsin did if you dont like Boston.Again, spending would jump from 3% to 6%. With the opposition complaining about an employer increase of 12%..Just dont know where you're getting this 50%? Your butt?
Um, canada.
I have friends that work there and their health care has created a 50% income tax

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Old 03-28-2008, 05:41 PM   #41
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I haven't ever read any documentation that Canada's taxes increased 50%.But I do admit that their system seems to be in a perpetual crisis that certainly isn't depicted accurately by proponents of Universal Healthcare for America.
But, The models and projections I have seen show that we can do it better than Canada.

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Old 03-28-2008, 05:47 PM   #42
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Default Re: Healthcare

We could also discuss the Health Care in Britain where they put out a notice that the Healthcare system was full, and if you needed something simple done, to do it at home. And to try home dental surgery. Sounds like a step back to me.

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Old 03-28-2008, 05:59 PM   #43
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Default Re: Healthcare

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Originally Posted by Malice View Post
I did it just to see reactions...I for one dont care...
This is all about healthcare..

There is no possibility that this will occur without a huge tax increase...and I mean HUGE.
If the goal of this thread is to discuss the Healthcare plans of Obama and Clinton - why start the thread off with such an incendiary comment like calling Obama Hussein?

If you don't care, why use it?

Would you deny anyone that tries to use the name "Hussein" is doing so ONLY to try to play into the fear some ignorant American's have of muslims?

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Old 03-28-2008, 06:10 PM   #44
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Default Re: Healthcare

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Originally Posted by StorminNorman View Post
If the goal of this thread is to discuss the Healthcare plans of Obama and Clinton - why start the thread off with such an incendiary comment like calling Obama Hussein?

If you don't care, why use it?

Would you deny anyone that tries to use the name "Hussein" is doing so ONLY to try to play into the fear some ignorant American's have of muslims?
To be fair, I call Hillary "Hillary Rodham."

People call George Bush "Dubya."

I see where you're coming from, but it is the man's name...

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Old 03-28-2008, 06:15 PM   #45
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Default Re: Healthcare

^ We just need to stay on track here.None of the candidates(McCain included) are proposing a model of government control like Canada or Britain.In fact all three candidates plans are similar in the sense that they offer new options for coverage.

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Old 03-28-2008, 06:18 PM   #46
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Default Re: Healthcare

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Originally Posted by StorminNorman View Post
If the goal of this thread is to discuss the Healthcare plans of Obama and Clinton - why start the thread off with such an incendiary comment like calling Obama Hussein?

If you don't care, why use it?

Would you deny anyone that tries to use the name "Hussein" is doing so ONLY to try to play into the fear some ignorant American's have of muslims?
You are looking to deep into it.
I was going to pick him over Hillary except all the stuff with his pastor has given me new light into his believes...
I dont care about his name, if this helps, if I have offended anyone by that, you have my sincere apologies

There, done.

Now back to the issue, I simply dont see, how having the government paying for all our healthcare could POSSIBLY be done for upwards of only a 6% tax hike.

Come on, this is the freaking government of $5000 toilets and $1000 wrenches. The government will NEVER be that efficient.

Also, the moment we tax the companies more for healthcare...the more they will want to leave

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Old 03-28-2008, 06:21 PM   #47
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To be fair, I call Hillary "Hillary Rodham."

People call George Bush "Dubya."

I see where you're coming from, but it is the man's name...
Exactly, its his freaking name...its not like I called him (and this might insult someone) Muslim-boy (even though he is not muslim) or some black racist name.

I can see the sensitivity to it on one side, then the get over it on the other...
So I will refrain from it. Honestly, I did it to get attention, and it worked, nothing more.

Lets just get off the name, even though I was the one that used it

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Old 03-28-2008, 09:08 PM   #48
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Default Re: Healthcare

America is so behind on health care,I can imagine a whole new tax will be made..just for it..and much like other things,people will not have a choice in the matter. They will just have to pay for it,even if they don't want to.

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Old 03-28-2008, 09:11 PM   #49
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Its not the right time for socialized health care. Frankly, our country just can't afford it right now. 8 years ago, yes...now? No chance.

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Old 03-28-2008, 09:27 PM   #50
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Default Re: Healthcare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malice View Post
I have an honest question.

Hillary and Hussein want to have government sponsored healthcare.

Anyone know any possible way they are going to do this without having our income taxes be 50% or more?
That's uncalled for.

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