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Old 05-19-2017, 04:16 AM   #601
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My point was the scene could've played out almost identically without her having too almost drown. And it would have the added bonus of keeping the pace up.
But the almost drowning doesn't change the pace at all in any way that the film wasn't already intending. There was always going to be a moment when Lois and Superman have a moment to themselves before his heroic sacrifice. Snyder decided to include another example of them saving each other before the "I love yous" and "Goodbyes," and that is what makes all the difference. Superman saves Lois. Lois saves Superman. Those saves are there for a reason: to show how these two work together, need each other, and save each other. It is a microcosm of their relationship, and it is a fitting way to set up their tragic parting.

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Great. So do more of that.
Why more though? Lois has had a major role to play in both films way beyond just needing to be saved from physical danger. She's not only saved others from harm, but she's also been a major player in uncovering information and resolving conflict. She already does enough saving and enough heroism to balance out the times she needs some physical assistance, so why add more personal and professional drama?

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Old 05-19-2017, 04:51 AM   #602
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Happy Martha's Day! The one day of the year where we don't finish off our enemies based only on the fact that their mothers name is also Martha.
Here we go again. With "Facts".

Love to know what's the new product people smoke these days.

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Old 05-19-2017, 09:57 AM   #603
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The fact is their mothers have the same name. C'mon people, you know how to read.

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Old 05-19-2017, 11:46 AM   #604
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But the almost drowning doesn't change the pace at all in any way that the film wasn't already intending. There was always going to be a moment when Lois and Superman have a moment to themselves before his heroic sacrifice. Snyder decided to include another example of them saving each other before the "I love yous" and "Goodbyes," and that is what makes all the difference. Superman saves Lois. Lois saves Superman. Those saves are there for a reason: to show how these two work together, need each other, and save each other. It is a microcosm of their relationship, and it is a fitting way to set up their tragic parting.
But we already have countless examples of them doing that across two films. It just wasn't at all necessary. I'm all for them having a moment to themselves, but it didn't need to brought on by yet another near death experience. It just got old. Right when Superman is about to get going in this battle with the Trinity, there's Lois once again dying.


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Why more though? Lois has had a major role to play in both films way beyond just needing to be saved from physical danger. She's not only saved others from harm, but she's also been a major player in uncovering information and resolving conflict. She already does enough saving and enough heroism to balance out the times she needs some physical assistance, so why add more personal and professional drama?
I've already said that I don't find her constant near death experiences interesting and why. I'm not sure what else you want from me. I'm not even against it all together. I just don't wanna see it done excessively. It has become distracting for me.

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Old 05-19-2017, 06:17 PM   #605
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What's the satisfying alternative to "constant near death experiences" (which, btw, is very in character with Lois Lane, moreso perhaps than any other superhero supporting character)

Not having her involved in the final conflict at all?

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Old 05-19-2017, 10:26 PM   #606
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What's the satisfying alternative to "constant near death experiences" (which, btw, is very in character with Lois Lane, moreso perhaps than any other superhero supporting character)

Not having her involved in the final conflict at all?
That's an extreme that I've never once gone to and have been incredibly explicit about.

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Old 05-20-2017, 04:58 AM   #607
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I loved Batman v Superman and even more so the Ultimate edition.
B.O and reviews dont mean anything to me. I dont need to know what others think of the movie or how much it made.

It was a success in my eyes. I buy the merchandise and the home video. Thats my part as a fan of the film. Other factors have nothing to do with me so why should I care.

Im getting a sequel with Justice League and getting another Batman movie with Affleck and a solo film. I was more than happy with what I got.

On a side note...the hate and fun poked at the Martha moment shows a clear understanding of how many people and fans of Batman clearly dont understand Batman and his arc or history. So they dumb it down to "oh Batman stopped fighting Supes because they both have a mother with the name Martha".

Yes dumb !@#$ thats one of the points of the moment. Yes Batman would of killed Supes if they didnt have the same mothers name. Superman needed to say Martha and not Mother or Mum because that name tells Bruce that Superman and him are more alike than he could ever imagine and Bruce gets to save a Martha this time and Bruce knows what it did to him when he lost his Martha and would it be a million times worse for the world if Superman lost his Martha and Bruce had now become a Joe chill type.

Superman now trusts Batman because he knows Bruce is being played by Lex and that because Batman...a mortal took down Superman....a SUPERman that it would be easy to save his mother. Plus Superman is needed at the scout ship.

Batman doesnt have to explain his personal reasons why he wanted to kill Superman to Superman because thats not the point. The point is that Lex was playing them both which they now both know and Batman wont kill Superman because of many, many reasons one of which starts with them having the same mothers name.

The scene is so good and so clear that its amazing how people just sum it up as "oh now we have the same mothers name lets be friends now" which is so much more to the scene than that and people just fail to accept but go ahead and just dumb it down because you feel the need to make the scene dumb for your own understanding.

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Old 05-20-2017, 05:50 AM   #608
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The only reason Lex plays them both is because they were both acting like complete idiots.

And again... Superman having a mother who just so happens to be called Martha... How does that change anything? Does that automatically eliminate that he could one day become a threat that could wipe out humanity? Why does him having a mother called Martha mean he is inherently good and will never be a threat?

The only way the scene works is if Bruce Wayne is full blown mentally retarded. Like he has an actual dissociative condition. But he seems perfectly stable and sane 10 minutes later.

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Old 05-20-2017, 06:35 AM   #609
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The fact is their mothers have the same name. C'mon people, you know how to read.
If I didn't know that, I wouldn't have highlighted "Based Only".

C'mon mod, you can do better than that.

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Old 05-20-2017, 11:17 AM   #610
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The only reason Lex plays them both is because they were both acting like complete idiots.

And again... Superman having a mother who just so happens to be called Martha... How does that change anything? Does that automatically eliminate that he could one day become a threat that could wipe out humanity? Why does him having a mother called Martha mean he is inherently good and will never be a threat?
It's not about Batman's perspective on Superman.

There's this misunderstanding that Batman stops what he's doing because of a change of heart about Superman.

It has almost nothing to do with Superman. It has to do with Batman realizing how far he has gone, and what he was about to do.

That's why they show Batman disgusted with himself in that sequence, throwing away the weapon he was going to use to kill Superman with. That's why his role through the entire rest of the film is essentially Batman "redeeming" himself to Clark and recognizing that he has to be better than he has been.

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Old 05-20-2017, 11:46 AM   #611
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And again... Superman having a mother who just so happens to be called Martha... How does that change anything? Does that automatically eliminate that he could one day become a threat that could wipe out humanity? Why does him having a mother called Martha mean he is inherently good and will never be a threat?

The only way the scene works is if Bruce Wayne is full blown mentally retarded. Like he has an actual dissociative condition. But he seems perfectly stable and sane 10 minutes later.
One needs to ask themselves if the same batman that exists in the comics today, the one who is superman's (maybe best) friend, believes superman is capable of becoming a threat that could one day wipe out humanity, the answer is plainly yes. Which is why there are so many instances of batman's many contingencies against such an outcome. But why is that batman not actively trying to destroy that superman...

You can't eliminate the threat possibility ever, let alone with a 'word' or all that came with it, it will always be there. What you/they can do is change the character and the characters views on the circumstance, turn him from hopeless to hopeful. So you have to ask yourself what is the difference between that batman and the tired cynical triggered one presented in this film prior to that revelation. When Bruce lays out the threat that is superman, Alfred response never disputes that possibility but retorts on the matter of superman's character. Because unlike Bruce, alfred has humanized superman, whereas Bruce at this particular point in his angry career of loss and mud and giving chances, has not(its there during his dehumanizing dialogue in the fight). All that comes with Lois revealing a mother with a human name so closely closely associated with bruce's own trauma and superman begging for her life not much unlike thomas/bruce did, is; Like in the comics, superman, is a man worth giving a chance and not just darkseid/zod playing nice. Layered into the 'what have i become' dual theme that maybe makes that moment not a some complete joke.

In conclusion, the scene is never about changing that circumstance and when people try to read it that way they strawman the actual film. In simpler terms, the revelation arcs bruce into a view more similar to the one alfred has and into the bruce we see in the comics, one that actually has..hope. Who better than an alien to prove men are still good, more pertinently, who better than Superman to pull batman out of the disillusionment that believing in the batman was always a 'beautiful lie'
HOpe that helps.

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Old 05-20-2017, 11:35 PM   #612
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Old 05-21-2017, 01:12 AM   #613
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One needs to ask themselves if the same batman that exists in the comics today, the one who is superman's (maybe best) friend, believes superman is capable of becoming a threat that could one day wipe out humanity, the answer is plainly yes. Which is why there are so many instances of batman's many contingencies against such an outcome. But why is that batman not actively trying to destroy that superman...

You can't eliminate the threat possibility ever, let alone with a 'word' or all that came with it, it will always be there. What you/they can do is change the character and the characters views on the circumstance, turn him from hopeless to hopeful. So you have to ask yourself what is the difference between that batman and the tired cynical triggered one presented in this film prior to that revelation. When Bruce lays out the threat that is superman, Alfred response never disputes that possibility but retorts on the matter of superman's character. Because unlike Bruce, alfred has humanized superman, whereas Bruce at this particular point in his angry career of loss and mud and giving chances, has not(its there during his dehumanizing dialogue in the fight). All that comes with Lois revealing a mother with a human name so closely closely associated with bruce's own trauma and superman begging for her life not much unlike thomas/bruce did, is; Like in the comics, superman, is a man worth giving a chance and not just darkseid/zod playing nice. Layered into the 'what have i become' dual theme that maybe makes that moment not a some complete joke.

In conclusion, the scene is never about changing that circumstance and when people try to read it that way they strawman the actual film. In simpler terms, the revelation arcs bruce into a view more similar to the one alfred has and into the bruce we see in the comics, one that actually has..hope. Who better than an alien to prove men are still good, more pertinently, who better than Superman to pull batman out of the disillusionment that believing in the batman was always a 'beautiful lie'
HOpe that helps.

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Agreed.

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Old 05-21-2017, 02:10 AM   #614
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Batman's arc in this movie is that he acted stupid for the sole purpose of contriving a fight with Superman, but then he stopped acting stupid.

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Old 05-21-2017, 02:37 AM   #615
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Batman's arc in this movie is that he acted stupid for the sole purpose of contriving a fight with Superman, but then he stopped acting stupid.
The events that happened before his confrontation with Superman made him paranoid, cynical and suicidal. ( Events like - Robin's death, death of his employees in Black Zero event, attack on Earth by Zod, Superman being indirectly responsible for deaths of civilians in Africa )

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Old 05-21-2017, 07:26 AM   #616
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Batman's arc in this movie is that he acted stupid for the sole purpose of contriving a fight with Superman, but then he stopped acting stupid.
Just like Anakin Skywalker. He started acting stupid soon after losing his mom and started worrying about his wife and then at the end of Return of the Jedi, he stopped acting stupid.

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Old 05-21-2017, 09:07 AM   #617
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Anakin Skywalker was a very young, rookie Jedi, who was manipulated for months by Emperor Palpatine, a veteran force of the dark side. Batman was supposed to be a veteran crime fighter, who launched a murder plot based on a 1% chance that Superman might turn on humanity some day. Never mind that is just a bad adaption of Batman as a character, it's just stupid character writing.

Unlike Batman, Vader's redemption comes from something real and human. Seeing his own son being attacked. Batman's comes from he and Superman sharing the same mother's name. Vader's redemption scene is heralded as one of the greats. Batman's is one of the most mocked scenes in CBM history.

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Old 05-21-2017, 09:51 AM   #618
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Not even comparable.

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Old 05-21-2017, 10:18 AM   #619
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Actually, the war against superman was launched based on his 100% ability to destroy the world in an instant, it would be the same war if it was Zod. How many 'good guys' the veteran batman has seen gone bad, how many good guys stayed 'that way' and frankly what promises are worth to a betrayed cynic are retorts to the idea that Superman is somehow different from the likes of Harvey simply because he 'saves cats from trees'. The 'if even 1%' is a hypothetical in relation to that, it's a rationalization vs motivation. Furthermore a character study on utilitarianism has been the very present in many a batman adaptation in the past especially when it's proven wrong! I rather think it's right at home in a redemption story about a 'broken' weathered batman(not so much spiderman). I'm more interested in the redemption stark needs for deciding to revenge kill a known innocent amputee war vet and not for the greater good. But that's me.

Alot of great pieces of art have been mocked and by audiences far less fickle than the modern cinematic audience, celebrated artists have died poor. Amadeus is a movie about this relationship. Often says more about the audience than if something is actually good or bad..or makes sense. That being said I've seen things in comic book movies far more mocked than this, from the shark repellent to Arnold, to various dancing scenes, the main difference being none of those are so defended. Back to the main topic though, Batman realizing the error of his way is hardly his redemption, that comes later and maybe for the rest of his life. Whats interesting though is this idea that one thing is more 'real' than another. Simply by seeing a son he was ready to kill himself..beg for his 'father' vs bruce reliving the very human moment and loss that catalyzed his supreme heroism in the first place, only now being on the wrong side of the gun? Debatable. For me it's steeped in the fact that bruce was never able to save his own mother being the crux of the bat and just what superman begging for his own mother to be saved presents. Same name or no.


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Old 05-21-2017, 11:10 AM   #620
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Anakin Skywalker was a very young, rookie Jedi, who was manipulated for months by Emperor Palpatine, a veteran force of the dark side. Batman was supposed to be a veteran crime fighter, who launched a murder plot based on a 1% chance that Superman might turn on humanity some day. Never mind that is just a bad adaption of Batman as a character, it's just stupid character writing.

Unlike Batman, Vader's redemption comes from something real and human. Seeing his own son being attacked. Batman's comes from he and Superman sharing the same mother's name. Vader's redemption scene is heralded as one of the greats. Batman's is one of the most mocked scenes in CBM history.
I think the only real comparison you can make is Lucas's hope that the scene with Vader despondent over Padme's death and the "Nooooooo" would come off as more poignant which similar to the reaction of the Martha scene. It was all in the execution.

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Old 05-21-2017, 11:34 AM   #621
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I think the only real comparison you can make is Lucas's hope that the scene with Vader despondent over Padme's death and the "Nooooooo" would come off as more poignant which similar to the reaction of the Martha scene. It was all in the execution.
Was Superman's reaction after killing Zod poignant ?

So, no one died in the "Martha" scene, why would Batman give same type of reaction ?

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Old 05-21-2017, 11:38 AM   #622
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Was Superman's reaction after killing Zod poignant ?

So, no one died in the "Martha" scene, why would Batman give same type of reaction ?
You misunderstood me.

I'm assuming Lucas thought that, the whole "Nooooo" scene would come off better than the overall reaction.

Same thing with "Martha", I think Snyder thought it would come off better as well.

Both have kind of been reduced to internet meme status.

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Old 05-21-2017, 06:54 PM   #623
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"Nooooooooooooooo" was a joke long before STAR WARS used it. A massive cliche that very few can pull off well. Ironically, Zach Snyder is pretty much the only director I've ever seen make "Noooooooooooo" work onscreen.

Once in WATCHMEN and once as an anguished wail in MAN OF STEEL.

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Old 05-21-2017, 08:40 PM   #624
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The events that happened before his confrontation with Superman made him paranoid, cynical and suicidal. ( Events like - Robin's death, death of his employees in Black Zero event, attack on Earth by Zod, Superman being indirectly responsible for deaths of civilians in Africa )
I personally think he is still a little suicidal in the DD battle and looking to do something that will definitively make a difference (his feelings of powerlessness over the events you described induced this mid-life crisis where he felt he wasn't useful and hadn't helped Gotham at all) which is what he wanted to with taking out Superman, but over the course of the DD battle the way he wanted to be useful wasn't panning out and he was once again (relatively) helpless only this time he responded in a positive way instead of a negative way.

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Old 05-22-2017, 10:38 AM   #625
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Was Superman's reaction after killing Zod poignant ?
Nope, it wasn't. It was an emotional reaction without any grounding in character or story, and thus comes off as hollow and arbitrary. Poignancy arises when the audience experiences the same emotion as the character.

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