"Only a Prime can defeat me" The Fallen Thread!

[Jager X]

Originally Posted by Rock Sexton

We're attempting to psychoanalyze Fallen's "complexes" now?

LMAO! I know, right? So to justify plain ol' Optimus destroying the Fallen in 10 seconds, the same mofo who can lift people and tanks with his mind, is because he needs therapy? What an ass excuse.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Dude, are you just messing with me or what? What abilities does Optimus demonstrate that supposedly make him the only one being able to defeat the Fallen? The only reason Optimus could take on the Fallen, was because Jetfire gave him his powers. Before that, the Fallen had every advantage thanks to his abilities.

Now if Optimus would've actually used the Matrix to defeat the Fallen, we probably wouldn't have this argument. Because only a Prime can use the Matrix, and thats why the Fallen can only be defeated by a Prime.

I'm not messing with you at all, there is obviously something special about Optimus, this was true in the cartoon's as well, people looked upon him with awe, and very rarely was his leadership challenged (Grimlock being a sole exception), its the same in the movies, people regard Optimus with awe and respect, even humans. Its totally possible that is simply the 'good' that Prime's exude that is the downfall of The Fallen, who turned to dark ways.

Originally Posted by The Guard

True, they never do point out what's so special about being a Prime, but I like to think Prime's actions, like in the comics and show, sort of speak for themselves in various areas.

I also can't help but notice, there's a lot of talk about how Prime only beat The Fallen with Jetfire's parts, but after defeating Megatron, Prime pretty much beats The Fallen without using the parts he got from Jetfire other than sort of using it to "super block". He basically just kicks the crap out of him with hand to hand combat. If anything, the parts would hinder that asskicking. I don't think it's implied he was given super strength beyond his usual or anyting like that, just flight, a lot more airspeed, and bigger weapons.

Agreed, The Fallen does start to get hits at this point also, which showed Prime may have made a mistake doing this, but he won out with brute force in the end, as The Fallen's other powers were useless on Optimus.

Originally Posted by Mr. Earle

So the rest of the original primes couldnt kill him but one of their descendants, whose only powers are fists and kicks can? Dayum.... thats ****** storytelling right here!

Not really, people are forgetting an important issue, The Fallen was a BROTHER to all of the other Prime's, its possibly they didnt have the heart to kill him were as really, he was nothing to Optimus, but some distant ancestor who was threatening Prime's new home.

Not to mention, i'm sure the original Prime's were disgusted at bringing war to our world and just wanted to get The Matrix away from The Fallen.

[The Guard]

We're attempting to psychoanalyze Fallen's "complexes" now

Who's "we"?

And it's not an excuse. Just something that occurred to me.

[Mr. Earle]

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

Not to mention, i'm sure the original Prime's were disgusted at bringing war to our world and just wanted to get The Matrix away from The Fallen.

They saved our sun but let the fallen free to walk the earth squashing humans with his feet. You guys are defending plot holes the size of Texas...

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

I'm not messing with you at all, there is obviously something special about Optimus, this was true in the cartoon's as well, people looked upon him with awe, and very rarely was his leadership challenged (Grimlock being a sole exception), its the same in the movies, people regard Optimus with awe and respect, even humans. Its totally possible that is simply the 'good' that Prime's exude that is the downfall of The Fallen, who turned to dark ways.

You still haven't answered the question. I never questioned his leadership, but why he can defeat the Fallen because he's a Prime. From what we've seen, he doesn't have the abilities of the past Primes. So anyone strong enough could defeat the Fallen.

[Mr. Earle]

Originally Posted by Nathan

You still haven't answered the question. I never questioned his leadership, but why he can defeat the Fallen because he's a Prime. From what we've seen, he doesn't have the abilities of the past Primes. So anyone strong enough could defeat the Fallen.

Where were you when i was making those arguements in the "prime was too brutal" thread? I could have used your help! In any case, i stand by your side on this.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Originally Posted by Mr. Earle

They saved our sun but let the fallen free to walk the earth squashing humans with his feet. You guys are defending plot holes the size of Texas...

Well, he would have been injured from the battle, maybe badly, so he may have been in no position to do anything. Not to mention, with the harvester no longer any use to him, why would he stay on Earth?

The movie does have plot-holes, i'm not denying that, never will, i just dont consider this one of them.

Originally Posted by Nathan

You still haven't answered the question. I never questioned his leadership, but why he can defeat the Fallen because he's a Prime. From what we've seen, he doesn't have the abilities of the past Primes. So anyone strong enough could defeat the Fallen.

Read the last sentence of my last post again, I believe i did answer the question. The good that Prime's exude could easily be what makes The Fallen weak/vulnerable to them.

[protocida]

How about this: The Primes imprisioned the Fallen in an dimensional vortex, in which he was captive for years. During the two years Megatron stayed dead, the Fallen choose Starscream to continue his revenge, and Starscream managed to free him and place him in the Nemesis, draining Energon from hatchlings to restore his once legendary power.

[Mr. Earle]

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

Well, he would have been injured from the battle, maybe badly, so he may have been in no position to do anything. Not to mention, with the harvester no longer any use to him, why would he stay on Earth?

The movie does have plot-holes, i'm not denying that, never will, i just dont consider this one of them.

Badly? The transformers dont seem to take long to recover from wounds. Thing is, that the Fallen still hanged around Earth looking for his machine. The whole sublot with the Primes is stupid. Bay could have killed them off in a better way. For example the Fallen could have used the Matrix to defeat them. That would have made more sense.

Originally Posted by protocida

How about this: The Primes imprisioned the Fallen in an dimensional vortex, in which he was captive for years. During the two years Megatron stayed dead, the Fallen choose Starscream to continue his revenge, and Starscream managed to free him and place him in the Nemesis, draining Energon from hatchlings to restore his once legendary power.

Thats way too much plot for one movie. The movie should only have explosions. Get the comics if you want to get the plot.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Originally Posted by protocida

How about this: The Primes imprisioned the Fallen in an dimensional vortex, in which he was captive for years. During the two years Megatron stayed dead, the Fallen choose Starscream to continue his revenge, and Starscream managed to free him and place him in the Nemesis, draining Energon from hatchlings to restore his once legendary power.

That is basically the story of the prequel comics.

Originally Posted by Mr. Earle

Badly? The transformers dont seem to take long to recover from wounds. Thing is, that the Fallen still hanged around Earth looking for his machine.

We havent seen a badly injured TF though, only mortally wounded one's and minor wounded one's. And The Fallen didnt still hang around on Earth, he was on Saturn for half of the movie, I doubt he stayed on Earth all that time before then, as he would need Energon and without the machine Earth didnt have any.

Originally Posted by Mr. Earle

The whole sublot with the Primes is stupid. Bay could have killed them off in a better way. For example the Fallen could have used the Matrix to defeat them. That would have made more sense.

It wouldnt make more sense as The Fallen would have the Matrix and no one to stop him using the machine so our Sun would have been dead long ago. The Fallen needed the matrix to work the machine this is why the Prime's hid it from him.

[protocida]

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

That is basically the story of the prequel comics.

Exactly. It explains why the Fallen didn't found the Harvester before and why he was weak in the Nemesis.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

Read the last sentence of my last post again, I believe i did answer the question. The good that Prime's exude could easily be what makes The Fallen weak/vulnerable to them.

So the answer is magic... alriiight.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Originally Posted by Nathan

So the answer is magic... alriiight.

I didnt say magic, just the good they exude and represent, as the Prime's are good and honourable.

[Jager X]

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

I didnt say magic, just the good they exude and represent, as the Prime's are good and honourable.

Sorry, that excuse is just not good no matter how many times you say it. How is his "good" better than the "good" of the other autobots? The movie failed to come up with an adequate solution to the problem. If Optimus was shown throwin decepticons or ripping out their allspark with his mind then it would have been a different story. There is nothing special about Optimus in the TF movies. Yes, he can lead and fight but what else can he do that is not possible any of the other autobots. That was just an extremely weak fight that was built up by an even weaker story.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Originally Posted by Jager X

Sorry, that excuse is just not good no matter how many times you say it. How is his "good" better than the "good" of the other autobots? The movie failed to come up with an adequate solution to the problem. If Optimus was shown throwin decepticons or ripping out their allspark with his mind then it would have been a different story. There is nothing special about Optimus in the TF movies. Yes, he can lead and fight but what else can he do that is not possible any of the other autobots. That was just an extremely weak fight that was built up by an even weaker story.

Wel, if you dont like it thats your opinion and that is up to you. BTW, I still think Optimus isnt just the same as the other Autobots, I doubt any of the others could take 3 big Decepticons on at the same time and the other Autobots dont exude good and awe to every living creature they come accross. Even the humans were in awe of Optimus Prime, not just the Autobots, IMO its because he oozes awe, good and authority and only a Prime can do that the way he does. Its the same in the cartoon and comics also.

[Jager X]

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

Wel, if you dont like it thats your opinion and that is up to you. BTW, I still think Optimus isnt just the same as the other Autobots, I doubt any of the others could take 3 big Decepticons on at the same time and the other Autobots dont exude good and awe to every living creature they come accross. Even the humans were in awe of Optimus Prime, not just the Autobots, IMO its because he oozes awe, good and authority and only a Prime can do that the way he does. Its the same in the cartoon and comics also.

It is not an opinion, but a fact. That is the cheapest excuse I have heard in defense of Optimus. No offense to you or anything, but seriously.Humans and Autobots were in awe? He oozes good and authority? The mofo ain't Jesus. What's next? His 5 ton ass can walk on water? Just because he was given an oppurtunity to show his skills in the forest does not mean the other autobots could not have done the same. This movie failed to give the other Autobot a justifiable amount of time to be hardcore.

Saying that Optimus is more powerful than the others because he is good is akin to people saying "Because God said so!" when they can't give an adequate explaination for something.

[Mr. Earle]

Even if Prime is indeed special, Jesus or whatever

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

(And Bay seemed to treat him this way... we asked for more Prime and he delivered. He practically masturbated with Prime the whole movie. "Prime got beaten in the first? Well fans, here he is beating Megatron AND two of his friends. And look here, Prime climbed on a huge decepticon who conviniently doesnt try to grab him and take him off his back. And you thought that wheel was a big deal...")

i just dont have to like or accept it. It seemed to me that in the first movie Prime was a very good autobot, a very capable one, but nothing more. Because the movie didnt indicate it and because he was on par with Megatron. And then Bay wrecked it all up in his quest to "give the people what they want". And people are happy. "Prime was badass, he kicked ass. He killed tons of robots, he shot one in the face, ripped another one's face in two.... it was sooo cool... and he is a descendant of the primes, a member of the congress and Branjelina's adopted son.... omg!"

Well, Prime cant be Jesus. The franchise wasnt set on this premise. Maybe you can make him a bit special with the matrix as it was in G1, but again that didnt make him god, not even then. Prime is one of the best robot warriors, but there are bigger and more competent robots out there. You mean to tell me that Metroplex isnt more powerful? That Grimlock, Magnus, Megatron, Rodimus (he lacks experience though) arent pretty much at his level? The reason we like Prime has nothing to do with him kicking ass or owning everybody. Batman cant beat the villains Superman can and yet he is loved just as much.

So the bad guys got Devastator and the Fallen, who were both useless anyway, so the good guys became gods? "The autobots dont have a combiner, its ok, give them a magic gun and make them unstoppable"? Devastator should have been brought down by either an autobot army, a magic gizmo (ex. matrix), or another big robot. I suppose Bay brought Devy to raise the stakes but my guess is that he was too costly to star in his own big fight. I cannot explain in any other way why Devy cant kill two of the weakest autobots and then he gets killed by a deus ex machina gun out of ****ing nowhere. And yes i am pissed.

In the end, even though the stakes were raised, the autobots became killing machines and they also got unexplained magic guns out of ****ing nowhere. Gee and i was scared that Devastator would be a threat and was anxious to get into the theatre to see him in action... If only i knew that he was a big vacuum cleaner.

So what i am basically saying is that yes Mr Bay, we wanted more Prime, but not like that. When i am asking for more batman in a Justice League comic book, i dont mean having him beat down Brainiac for ****'s sake!

[Jager X]

Originally Posted by Mr. Earle

Even if Prime is indeed special, Jesus or whatever

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

(And Bay seemed to treat him this way... we asked for more Prime and he delivered. He practically masturbated with Prime the whole movie. "Prime got beaten in the first? Well fans, here he is beating Megatron AND two of his friends. And look here, Prime climbed on a huge decepticon who conviniently doesnt try to grab him and take him off his back. And you thought that wheel was a big deal...")

i just dont have to like or accept it. It seemed to me that in the first movie Prime was a very good autobot, a very capable one, but nothing more. Because the movie didnt indicate it and because he was on par with Megatron. And then Bay wrecked it all up in his quest to "give the people what they want". And people are happy. "Prime was badass, he kicked ass. He killed tons of robots, he shot one in the face, ripped another one's face in two.... it was sooo cool... and he is a descendant of the primes, a member of the congress and Branjelina's adopted son.... omg!"

Well, Prime cant be Jesus. The franchise wasnt set on this premise. Maybe you can make him a bit special with the matrix as it was in G1, but again that didnt make him god, not even then. Prime is one of the best robot warriors, but there are bigger and more competent robots out there. You mean to tell me that Metroplex isnt more powerful? That Grimlock, Magnus, Megatron, Rodimus (he lacks experience though) arent pretty much at his level? The reason we like Prime has nothing to do with him kicking ass or owning everybody. Batman cant beat the villains Superman can and yet he is loved just as much.

So the bad guys got Devastator and the Fallen, who were both useless anyway, so the good guys became gods? "The autobots dont have a combiner, its ok, give them a magic gun and make them unstoppable"? Devastator should have been brought down by either an autobot army, a magic gizmo (ex. matrix), or another big robot. I suppose Bay brought Devy to raise the stakes but my guess is that he was too costly to star in his own big fight. I cannot explain in any other way why Devy cant kill two of the weakest autobots and then he gets killed by a deus ex machina gun out of ****ing nowhere. And yes i am pissed.

In the end, even though the stakes were raised, the autobots became killing machines and they also got unexplained magic guns out of ****ing nowhere. Gee and i was scared that Devastator would be a threat and was anxious to get into the theatre to see him in action... If only i knew that he was a big vacuum cleaner.

So what i am basically saying is that yes Mr Bay, we wanted more Prime, but not like that. When i am asking for more batman in a Justice League comic book, i dont mean having him beat down Brainiac for ****'s sake!

Indeed. All threats in this movie folded in awe of Optimus.

[Ahura Mazda]

In what world was Optimus on par with Megatron in the first? He was getting beaten up with Megatron barely even trying. I really did not feel optimus was overpowerred in this one; just that the Fallen was a bit dissappointing and that Devastator was underwhelming especially when it came to his defences.

[Nathan]

Maybe not on par, but Optimus did get some good hits in. Of course it was mostly shown in the background with Blackout slowly approaching. But most didn't notice. Heck, I barely even noticed. They only showed up-close shots when Optimus got man handled, but when Optimus did something it was barely shown.

[Grommers]

I think you guys are looking into this way to much, look not all the story has been written, thats why there will probably be spin-off books, a third movie etc...

Stop "being angry" at the plot holes, and start writing fan-fic on why they are the way they are.



My idea is that a Prime has a selflessness (like a green lantern has willpower) that gives him power, and to that extent I guess Greed? would be the other end which would also power them....hence the fallen being so strong.


Either way, I hope they do more on the fallen in the third one some how, and just have megs backstab him and be like GG NOOB

[Nathan]

Uhm... the Fallen is dead. Optimus ripped his Spark out and crushed it.

[Aesop Rocks]

The Fallen was pretty cool, I guess...

I mean, I only saw it for Starscream and Megatron...didn't really care too much for any other evil.

Oh and, shouldn't Megatron be good again?

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Originally Posted by Mr. Earle

Even if Prime is indeed special, Jesus or whatever

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

(And Bay seemed to treat him this way... we asked for more Prime and he delivered. He practically masturbated with Prime the whole movie. "Prime got beaten in the first? Well fans, here he is beating Megatron AND two of his friends. And look here, Prime climbed on a huge decepticon who conviniently doesnt try to grab him and take him off his back. And you thought that wheel was a big deal...")

i just dont have to like or accept it. It seemed to me that in the first movie Prime was a very good autobot, a very capable one, but nothing more. Because the movie didnt indicate it and because he was on par with Megatron. And then Bay wrecked it all up in his quest to "give the people what they want". And people are happy. "Prime was badass, he kicked ass. He killed tons of robots, he shot one in the face, ripped another one's face in two.... it was sooo cool... and he is a descendant of the primes, a member of the congress and Branjelina's adopted son.... omg!"

There are reasons Prime could have been defeated in the first, for one Megatron was frozen in the ice for 10000 years so probably had a lot more energy than Prime, who had expended a lot by then.

Originally Posted by Mr. Earle

Well, Prime cant be Jesus. The franchise wasnt set on this premise. Maybe you can make him a bit special with the matrix as it was in G1, but again that didnt make him god, not even then. Prime is one of the best robot warriors, but there are bigger and more competent robots out there. You mean to tell me that Metroplex isnt more powerful? That Grimlock, Magnus, Megatron, Rodimus (he lacks experience though) arent pretty much at his level? The reason we like Prime has nothing to do with him kicking ass or owning everybody. Batman cant beat the villains Superman can and yet he is loved just as much.

Erm, Prime has always been compared to Jesus in the comics and cartoon, he is meant to be a Transformers Jesus basically, have you never seen the painting of the last supper with Prime in place of Jesus in it?

And Rodimus, Grimlock and Ultra Magnus were never on the same power level as Prime, especially Rodimus and Magnus.

Originally Posted by Mr. Earle

So the bad guys got Devastator and the Fallen, who were both useless anyway, so the good guys became gods? "The autobots dont have a combiner, its ok, give them a magic gun and make them unstoppable"? Devastator should have been brought down by either an autobot army, a magic gizmo (ex. matrix), or another big robot. I suppose Bay brought Devy to raise the stakes but my guess is that he was too costly to star in his own big fight. I cannot explain in any other way why Devy cant kill two of the weakest autobots and then he gets killed by a deus ex machina gun out of ****ing nowhere. And yes i am pissed.

In the end, even though the stakes were raised, the autobots became killing machines and they also got unexplained magic guns out of ****ing nowhere. Gee and i was scared that Devastator would be a threat and was anxious to get into the theatre to see him in action... If only i knew that he was a big vacuum cleaner.

So what i am basically saying is that yes Mr Bay, we wanted more Prime, but not like that. When i am asking for more batman in a Justice League comic book, i dont mean having him beat down Brainiac for ****'s sake!

Were were these magic guns out of nowere the Autobots got? They had the same guns as the first movie as far as I could see. And it was about time we got to me more of Optimus's ruthless side also, which he does have, and has used in the past, I honestly dont get your problems with it. Also, I seem to remember in the forest fight Prime got pretty busted up, and The Fallen ripped half of his parts off him (or Jetfire's parts).

[Mr. Earle]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Maybe not on par, but Optimus did get some good hits in. Of course it was mostly shown in the background with Blackout slowly approaching. But most didn't notice. Heck, I barely even noticed. They only showed up-close shots when Optimus got man handled, but when Optimus did something it was barely shown.

Exactly. So basically it was a pretty even fight until Megatron won.

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

There are reasons Prime could have been defeated in the first, for one Megatron was frozen in the ice for 10000 years so probably had a lot more energy than Prime, who had expended a lot by then.

Thats just assumptions. So why is Prime more powerful now then? Come on, you can freeze the one or the other, you can have them in whatever plot you like, but Megatron will always be equal to Prime, if not superior because of his super-cannon.

Erm, Prime has always been compared to Jesus in the comics and cartoon, he is meant to be a Transformers Jesus basically, have you never seen the painting of the last supper with Prime in place of Jesus in it?

Yes i know, what i meant is that he cant manhandle everyone just because he is. Thats why bigger autobots exist. You cant expect us to buy that Demolishor couldnt just grab him from his back, or that any huge decepticon is a slow moving vacuum cleaner just so that Prime can prevail.

And Rodimus, Grimlock and Ultra Magnus were never on the same power level as Prime, especially Rodimus and Magnus.

HotRod no, but Rodimus probably was. When he got the Matrix he grew bigger in size and the other autobots were able to tell the difference. One time that he lost it, the others knew it was HotRod. So i guess with the Matrix, he becomes Rodimus who is superior to the normal autobots. Also, he could defeat Galvatron who is supposed to be more powerful than Megatron after Unicron reprogrammed him.

Were were these magic guns out of nowere the Autobots got? They had the same guns as the first movie as far as I could see.

No, i wasnt referring to that, i was referring to the gun out of ****ing nowhere that killed Dev. The decepticon we all had high expectations of did barely anything and then got killed by a magic gun that the humans remembered they had. Pffft.....

And it was about time we got to me more of Optimus's ruthless side also, which he does have, and has used in the past, I honestly dont get your problems with it. Also, I seem to remember in the forest fight Prime got pretty busted up, and The Fallen ripped half of his parts off him (or Jetfire's parts).

Prime shouldnt be ruthless. Period. That's what Megatron is for. Prime is Jesus, remember?
Then, in the forest fight, apart from the time that Megatron got 2 hits on him and blew him across the battlefield, he was invincible. The fight was a bit one sided but i can accept it, especially when Prime goes for broke in a desperate attempt to win. As for the Fallen, he only ripped one of his thrusters when he could have ripped his head. That Fallen was a joke...

So anyway, yes i think that Prime was overpowered in ROTF. Demolishor just let him climb on him. Megatron needed 2 more decepticons and backstabbing to beat Prime who was supposed to be his equal... The Fallen never stood a chance... Prime did everything in the movie. Everything.