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Old 09-21-2013, 01:21 AM   #801
herolee10
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Default Re: Amy Adams IS Lois Lane

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Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post

You're setting up a false dichotomy between Lois instantly knowing and loving Clark on the one hand and endless dragging on the other. If we take the Smallville example, it was ridiculous for Lana to learn the truth about Clark in season 6... but that doesn't mean they should have had Lana learn the truth in the pilot. After the tornado scene in the season 1 finale would have been fine, for example.
That's because they (the producers back then) wanted to create this never ending theme of a this epic tragedy between Lana and Clark; their whole goal was to show Clark and Lana being a pair that despite how much they cared about each other, things would never work out between them. The whole ridiculousness of Lana not learning the secret for so long was due to them wanting to prolong the drama for as long they could.


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Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
Now, to answer your points, when Clark and Lois first meet he's not lying to her in a manner different than he's lying to anybody else (which is necessary). He doesn't know that Lois is his eventual wife and partner upon first meeting her, and likewise Lois doesn't know either. She's just somebody else who works at the planet, like Cat Grant or Jenny Olsen. The way I see it, and I realise other people may have different relationship moralities, he only has a responsibility to let her know once they reach a serious level of relationship. That could mean when they're about to have sex, when they're extremely close friends (but not dating) but going on dangerous missions together as reporters, etc. it depends on what story is being told.

All of this is aside from the fact that delayed gratification is quite a useful way to maximize joy. It's why Lois' line in LnC, "who's asking, Clark, or Superman?" is so famous, and it's why Chloe Sullivan being at the fortress of solitude in Smallville season 5 was such an amazing relief. You have to build up to something for it to feel most great. MoS did not do that... Lois just falls crazy for him instantly, everything follows sequentially without struggle, she learns there's a superman, finds out who he is, then helps him out, then he helps her, then they start kissing and we're supposed to believe they're crazy about each other. Finally, it's a missed opportunity, as Superman's love for Lois Lane is a humanising aspect of the character, and having her fall for him easily and without struggle takes that aspect away.
You do realize that you're using mainly TV Series as a example right? You can't really compare the situation with the TV Series with this film since unlike a film, a TV series have SEVERAL hours to tell and explore/develop any given relationship that they want to; in fact, the goal for any TV Show is to develop an arc throughout the course of its given season.

MOS had a little over 2 hours to tell Superman's origins and introduce his characters from both Krypton and Earth.

And just because they've kissed each other, something that I keep reiterating every time we talk about this, it doesn't mean that their so called "courtship" is over...in fact, it's far from over. You know the whole process of trying and learning to make it work after they've gotten it started is a whole other ball game, one that you seem to think is pointless and uneventful considering on how many times you overlook that phase of their relationship as well.

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I realise you feel we've waited a long time, and I feel the same way. Unfortunately, because Goyer can't write romance, we'll be waiting a lot longer. You may need to wait a lot longer in the future, as the critical failure that is MoS, and the fact that WB is now afraid of making solo superman movies, means it may be a very long time before you see the romance done on the big screen again. Lois will be at best the third character of Batman vs Superman, and the sixth or seventh character of Justice League. If they had mad a great Superman film, we'd be seeing the Lois and Clark romance intensely in summer 2015. Now we might never see it again with these characters. That is the result of David Goyer's instant gratification approach to storytelling.
MOS wasn't a critical failure. Sure, it got mixed reviews, but by no means was it a failure. Audiences enjoyed it, and honestly, a lot of the nitpicks that the so called critics had with it were stupid; they were practically asking for a joyride of a Marvel film than what we got with MOS.

And we honestly don't know enough yet about the significance of everyone's roles in the new film to make that call yet.

And Goyer may not be the best at writing romances, but at least he did a much better job than Singer did; hell, he gave a better Lois and development with Clark than the pitches and ideas that past directors had in mind for their takes on Superman.

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Old 09-21-2013, 01:33 AM   #802
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Default Re: Amy Adams IS Lois Lane

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Originally Posted by herolee10 View Post
That's because they (the producers back then) wanted to create this never ending theme of a this epic tragedy between Lana and Clark; their whole goal was to show Clark and Lana being a pair that despite how much they cared about each other, things would never work out between them. The whole ridiculousness of Lana not learning the secret for so long was due to them wanting to prolong the drama for as long they could.

You do realize that you're using mainly TV Series as a example right? You can't really compare the situation with the TV Series with this film since unlike a film, a TV series have SEVERAL hours to tell and explore/develop any given relationship that they want to; in fact, the goal for any TV Show is to develop an arc throughout the course of its given season.

MOS had a little over 2 hours to tell Superman's origins and introduce his characters from both Krypton and Earth.
There is a third alternative, beyond stalling and staying put, and beyond starting at the finishing line and getting premature nerdgasms: that third alternative is what Don Draper would call "move forward", or what Lois Lane might call "one step at a time".

MoS ad a little over 2 hours, and they wasted 35 minutes on Jor-El and 45 minutes on decontextualized action scenes. If they had written a focused story, say on Clark, Jonathan, Martha, and something in the environs of Smallville, then it would be a more compelling film and a Clois-centric sequel might be possible. Now, this will never happen, not with Amy Adams who has wanted to play the character her entire life and had memorised all of Margot Kidder's lines. She'll be the third character in Batman vs Superman at best.

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MOS wasn't a critical failure. Sure, it got mixed reviews, but by no means was it a failure. Audiences enjoyed it, and honestly, a lot of the nitpicks that the so called critics had with it were stupid; they were practically asking for a joyride of a Marvel film than what we got with MOS.
MoS is a critical failure. It has one of the lowest Rotten Tomatoes scores of any superhero movie:
Dark Knight, 94%, 288 reviews
Spider Man 2, 94%, 248 reviews
Iron Man, 93%, 243 reviews
The Avengers, 92%, 301 reviews
Spider Man, 89%, 224 reviews
Dark Knight Rises, 88%, 304 reviews
X Men: First Class, 87%, 243 reviews
X Men 2, 87%, 224 reviews
Hellboy 2, 87%, 209 reviews
Batman Begins, 85%, 265 reviews
X Men, 82%, 243 reviews
Hellboy, 81%, 196 reviews
Captain America, 79%, 220 reviews
Iron Man 3, 78%, 270 reviews
Sin City, 78%, 242 reviews
Thor, 77%, 261 reviews
Superman Returns, 75%, 229
Iron Man 2, 73%, 275 reviews
The Amazing Spider Man, 73%, 284 reviews
The Wolverine, 68%, 191 reviews
The Incredible Hulk, 67%, 218 reviews
Watchmen, 64%, 289 reviews
Spider Man 3, 63%, 243 reviews
The Hulk, 62%, 229 reviews
300, 60%, 226 reviews
Blade 2, 59%, 136 reviews
X Men 3, 57%, 229 reviews
Man of Steel, 56%, 271 reviews
Blade, 55%, 84 reviews
Daredevil, 45%, 214 reviews
X Men Origins: The Wolverine, 38%, 222
Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, 37%, 166 reviews
The Punisher, 29%, 167 reviews
Green Lantern, 26%, 227 reviews
Fantastic Four, 26%, 202 reviews
Sucker Punch, 23%, 202 reviews
Blade 3, 26%, 164 reviews
Elektra, 10%, 150 reviews

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Originally Posted by herolee10 View Post
And we honestly don't know enough yet about the significance of everyone's roles in the new film to make that call yet.
We know that no solo MoS sequel is planned. If the movie had scored 80% on RT, and not suffered an abysmal 65% second week drop due to catastrophic word of mouth and people not wanting to see it a second time, we'd be getting a solo sequel for sure.

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Originally Posted by herolee10 View Post
And Goyer may not be the best at writing romances, but at least he did a much better job than Singer did; hell, he gave a better Lois and development with Clark than the pitches and ideas that past directors had in mind for their takes on Superman.
Completely irrelevant.


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Old 09-21-2013, 01:42 AM   #803
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Default Re: Amy Adams IS Lois Lane

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Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
There is a third alternative, beyond stalling and staying put, and beyond starting at the finishing line and getting premature nerdgasms: that third alternative is what Don Draper would call "move forward", or what Lois Lane might call "one step at a time".

MoS ad a little over 2 hours, and they wasted 35 minutes on Jor-El and 45 minutes on decontextualized action scenes. If they had written a focused story, say on Clark, Jonathan, Martha, and something in the environs of Smallville, then it would be a more compelling film and a Clois-centric sequel might be possible. Now, this will never happen, not with Amy Adams who has wanted to play the character her entire life and had memorised all of Margot Kidder's lines. She'll be the third character in Batman vs Superman at best.


MoS is a critical failure. It has one of the lowest Rotten Tomatoes scores of any superhero movie:
Dark Knight, 94%, 288 reviews
Spider Man 2, 94%, 248 reviews
Iron Man, 93%, 243 reviews
The Avengers, 92%, 301 reviews
Spider Man, 89%, 224 reviews
Dark Knight Rises, 88%, 304 reviews
X Men: First Class, 87%, 243 reviews
X Men 2, 87%, 224 reviews
Hellboy 2, 87%, 209 reviews
Batman Begins, 85%, 265 reviews
X Men, 82%, 243 reviews
Hellboy, 81%, 196 reviews
Captain America, 79%, 220 reviews
Iron Man 3, 78%, 270 reviews
Thor, 77%, 261 reviews
Superman Returns, 75%, 229
Iron Man 2, 73%, 275 reviews
The Amazing Spider Man, 73%, 284 reviews
The Wolverine, 68%, 191 reviews
The Incredible Hulk, 67%, 218 reviews
Watchmen, 64%, 289 reviews
Spider Man 3, 63%, 243 reviews
The Hulk, 62%, 229 reviews
Blade 2, 59%, 136 reviews
X Men 3, 57%, 229 reviews
Man of Steel, 56%, 271 reviews
Blade, 55%, 84 reviews
Daredevil, 45%, 214 reviews
X Men Origins: The Wolverine, 38%, 222
Green Lantern, 26%, 227 reviews
Blade 3, 26%, 164 reviews
Elektra, 10%, 150 reviews


We know that no solo MoS sequel is planned. If the movie had scored 80% on RT, and not suffered an abysmal 65% second week drop due to catastrophic word of mouth and people not wanting to see it a second time, we'd be getting a solo sequel for sure.


Completely irrelevant.
And like I mentioned before, you do realize that most of the so called complaints were pretty much baseless right? Or does Rotten Tomatoes dictate on what film you see as being great or not? Do you really think that the likes of "Superman Returns", "X-Men 3", or even "Spider-Man 3" are better films? I, along with many others, sure as hell don't.

And granted, while the execution may not have been the best, the point of the whole plot/intro in Krypton was just to give out a back story to both Jor-el and Zod and where this conflict first originated from and how it translated over to Superman eventually.

Look, my main argument here is that I just don't think that seeing another "will they or won't they" chase routine would have been the best. Sequels are never a guarantee, something that Singer took for granted, and honestly I, along with several others, enjoyed on how they went about with the relationship in this film. It's sure as hell better than what we've gotten in the past, and I would rather see them do something a bit new and different, with a promising future shown for the both than doing the same old crap over and over again, believing that they can do more in the future.

And when you consider it, it's actually better that we got what we did in this film for the two since like you said, if Lois isn't given as top priority as Batman is in the next film, then that wouldn't have left as much time to properly flesh out a romantic relationship between them if she didn't know the secret still.

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Old 09-21-2013, 02:00 AM   #804
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Default Re: Amy Adams IS Lois Lane

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Originally Posted by herolee10 View Post
And like I mentioned before, you do realize that most of the so called complaints were pretty much baseless right? Or does Rotten Tomatoes dictate on what film you see as being great or not? Do you really think that the likes of "Superman Returns", "X-Men 3", or even "Spider-Man 3" are better films? I, along with many others, sure as hell don't.
Superman Returns, XMen 3, and Spider Man 3 have more human elements in them, and actual character arcs. To take the example of XMen 3, Phoenix goes completely off the rails at the beginning, she kills Cyclops, Logan tries to help her but doesn't succeed at first, Xavier tries to subdue her and to keep her sane but she kills him too, at the end of the movie everything is going to hell but her love for Logan brings her back. That's called an arc.

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Originally Posted by herolee10 View Post
And granted, while the execution may not have been the best, the point of the whole plot/intro in Krypton was just to give out a back story to both Jor-el and Zod and where this conflict first originated from and how it translated over to Superman eventually.
Dumb idea for an origin story, failed execution, and the end result is that WB doesn't want to fund a Superman-only sequel.

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Originally Posted by herolee10 View Post
And when you consider it, it's actually better that we got what we did in this film for the two since like you said, if Lois isn't given as top priority as Batman is in the next film, then that wouldn't have left as much time to properly flesh out a romantic relationship between them if she didn't know the secret still.
MoS would be getting a sequel if it had been a better movie, that's my point.

Look at this list again:
  1. Dark Knight, 94%, 288 reviews, got a sequel
  2. Spider Man 2, 94%, 248 reviews, got a sequel
  3. Iron Man, 93%, 243 reviews, got a sequel
  4. The Avengers, 92%, 301 reviews, got a sequel
  5. Spider Man, 89%, 224 reviews, got a sequel
  6. Dark Knight Rises, 88%, 304 reviews
  7. X Men: First Class, 87%, 243 reviews, got a sequel
  8. X Men 2, 87%, 224 reviews, got a sequel
  9. Hellboy 2, 87%, 209 reviews
  10. Batman Begins, 85%, 265 reviews, got a sequel
  11. X Men, 82%, 243 reviews, got a sequel
  12. Hellboy, 81%, 196 reviews, got a sequel
  13. Captain America, 79%, 220 reviews, got a sequel
  14. Iron Man 3, 78%, 270 reviews
  15. Sin City, 78%, 242 reviews
  16. Thor, 77%, 261 reviews, got a sequel
  17. Superman Returns, 75%, 229
  18. Iron Man 2, 73%, 275 reviews, got a sequel
  19. The Amazing Spider Man, 73%, 284 reviews, got a sequel
  20. The Wolverine, 68%, 191 reviews
  21. The Incredible Hulk, 67%, 218 reviews
  22. Watchmen, 64%, 289 reviews
  23. Spider Man 3, 63%, 243 reviews
  24. The Hulk, 62%, 229 reviews, got a sequel
  25. 300, 60%, 226 reviews, got a sequel
  26. Blade 2, 59%, 136 reviews, got a sequel
  27. X Men 3, 57%, 229 reviews
  28. Man of Steel, 56%, 271 reviews.
  29. Blade, 55%, 84 reviews, got a sequel
  30. Daredevil, 45%, 214 reviews, got a sequel
  31. X Men Origins: The Wolverine, 38%, 222, got a sequel
  32. Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, 37%, 166 reviews
  33. The Punisher, 29%, 167 reviews
  34. Green Lantern, 26%, 227 reviews
  35. Fantastic Four, 26%, 202 reviews, got a sequel
  36. Sucker Punch, 23%, 202 reviews
  37. Blade 3, 26%, 164 reviews
  38. Elektra, 10%, 150 reviews

Of the top-10 films, only 2 films (Dark Knight Rises and Hellboy 2) did not or are not getting sequels. Of the bottom-10 films, only four films (Blade, Daredevil, XMen Origins, and Fantastic Four) did get sequels. So the number of films getting sequels drops from 80% to 40%.

Question: What do you think is the result of this correlation?


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Old 09-21-2013, 02:26 AM   #805
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Default Re: Amy Adams IS Lois Lane

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I wrote it was the last straw, that means there were other straws before :-)

There was a lack of continuity and coherence, Clark was kind of a loser and was responsible for a great number of deaths, the Daily Planet was a sterile environment, the politics (e.g. Red Queen) was thought out by a 10-year-old, etc.

That said, Smallville was primarily a soap opera (which is perfectly fine), and thus the way they treated relationships is a lot more important than everything else since it was about relationships. I was also unhappy with Clana lasting for way too long, with Lexana happening at all, and with Chloe claiming that she loved Jimmy in the season 8 finale when in fact the previous episodes made it clear she actually loved Davis Bloome a lot more. I was being pissed off more and more... and then Clark mindraped Lois in Pandora. I stopped caring.
Oh. So, you're one of them. Shipping nonsense. Chloe never loved Davis. This is very clear throughout the season. That's not to say she truly loved Jimmy either though. But that's not my place to state. And the Red Queen stuff happened after Pandora I think. I haven't watched Pandora since, well, since it aired, so I checked the Smallville Wiki and it says that Emil erased Lois' memories, but either way I don't see how it's any worse or any more deserving of not watching than when Clark did the same thing with Chloe in season 8.

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Old 09-21-2013, 02:33 AM   #806
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Default Re: Amy Adams IS Lois Lane

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Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
Superman Returns, XMen 3, and Spider Man 3 have more human elements in them, and actual character arcs. To take the example of XMen 3, Phoenix goes completely off the rails at the beginning, she kills Cyclops, Logan tries to help her but doesn't succeed at first, Xavier tries to subdue her and to keep her sane but she kills him too, at the end of the movie everything is going to hell but her love for Logan brings her back. That's called an arc.


Dumb idea for an origin story, failed execution, and the end result is that WB doesn't want to fund a Superman-only sequel.


MoS would be getting a sequel if it had been a better movie, that's my point.

Look at this list again:
  1. Dark Knight, 94%, 288 reviews, got a sequel
  2. Spider Man 2, 94%, 248 reviews, got a sequel
  3. Iron Man, 93%, 243 reviews, got a sequel
  4. The Avengers, 92%, 301 reviews, got a sequel
  5. Spider Man, 89%, 224 reviews, got a sequel
  6. Dark Knight Rises, 88%, 304 reviews
  7. X Men: First Class, 87%, 243 reviews, got a sequel
  8. X Men 2, 87%, 224 reviews, got a sequel
  9. Hellboy 2, 87%, 209 reviews
  10. Batman Begins, 85%, 265 reviews, got a sequel
  11. X Men, 82%, 243 reviews, got a sequel
  12. Hellboy, 81%, 196 reviews, got a sequel
  13. Captain America, 79%, 220 reviews, got a sequel
  14. Iron Man 3, 78%, 270 reviews
  15. Sin City, 78%, 242 reviews
  16. Thor, 77%, 261 reviews, got a sequel
  17. Superman Returns, 75%, 229
  18. Iron Man 2, 73%, 275 reviews, got a sequel
  19. The Amazing Spider Man, 73%, 284 reviews, got a sequel
  20. The Wolverine, 68%, 191 reviews
  21. The Incredible Hulk, 67%, 218 reviews
  22. Watchmen, 64%, 289 reviews
  23. Spider Man 3, 63%, 243 reviews
  24. The Hulk, 62%, 229 reviews, got a sequel
  25. 300, 60%, 226 reviews, got a sequel
  26. Blade 2, 59%, 136 reviews, got a sequel
  27. X Men 3, 57%, 229 reviews
  28. Man of Steel, 56%, 271 reviews.
  29. Blade, 55%, 84 reviews, got a sequel
  30. Daredevil, 45%, 214 reviews, got a sequel
  31. X Men Origins: The Wolverine, 38%, 222, got a sequel
  32. Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, 37%, 166 reviews
  33. The Punisher, 29%, 167 reviews
  34. Green Lantern, 26%, 227 reviews
  35. Fantastic Four, 26%, 202 reviews, got a sequel
  36. Sucker Punch, 23%, 202 reviews
  37. Blade 3, 26%, 164 reviews
  38. Elektra, 10%, 150 reviews

Of the top-10 films, only 2 films (Dark Knight Rises and Hellboy 2) did not or are not getting sequels. Of the bottom-10 films, only four films (Blade, Daredevil, XMen Origins, and Fantastic Four) did get sequels. So the number of films getting sequels drops from 80% to 40%.

Question: What do you think is the result of this correlation?
MOS is getting a sequel. I don't know why people constantly fail on seeing that. This new film only has MOS to go off of. If we had one Batman film with Ben in it prior before MOS, then things would be a little different, but we don't. Sure, Batman is in it, but we don't know as to how he'll be portrayed in the film yet, so it's a little premature to jump the shark with..."we're not getting a sequel" complaints.

And I feel like we didn't see the same film, because I saw an compelling arc myself for Clark Kent in the film. Clark learned to embrace his alien nature and put faith in humanity, where after having felt alienated from the people of Earth throughout most of his youth, he chose to stand by with humans than accept Zod's offer in rebuilding Krypton on Earth.

I'm not calling it a perfect film; it had flaws, but it's nowhere near as bad as you're claiming it to be.

Look, I get that you're a fan of the character, but I just can't help but wonder, if you think MOS was THAT bad, why even bother following the progress of this new film if you think everything is hopeless at this point? Are you just here to take out your frustration on everyone because you didn't get the film that you wanted?

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Old 09-21-2013, 02:43 AM   #807
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Default Re: Amy Adams IS Lois Lane

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Oh. So, you're one of them. Shipping nonsense. Chloe never loved Davis. This is very clear throughout the season. That's not to say she truly loved Jimmy either though. But that's not my place to state. And the Red Queen stuff happened after Pandora I think. I haven't watched Pandora since, well, since it aired, so I checked the Smallville Wiki and it says that Emil erased Lois' memories, but either way I don't see how it's any worse or any more deserving of not watching than when Clark did the same thing with Chloe in season 8.
It's not shipping nonsense, as shipping was the primary purpose of the show :-) If you don't put relationships first in your fictional interests, don't watch soap operas. Smallville was a soap opera. Relationships are the point.

What Clark did to Chloe in season 8 is probably just as bad. Clark Kent was simply a revolting individual on Smallville, however, that doesn't mean I'm going to react to every evil act in a manner exactly proportional to how sinister that act was. I'm not claiming to be 100% consistent. Sometimes I let horrible things slide, I think we all do.

I don't feel like getting too much into, but Chloe Sullivan was very much more attracted to Davis Bloome than to Jimmy (Henry) Olsen in season 8, except for the retcon in the episode Doomsfail.

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Old 09-21-2013, 04:09 AM   #808
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It's not shipping nonsense, as shipping was the primary purpose of the show :-) If you don't put relationships first in your fictional interests, don't watch soap operas. Smallville was a soap opera. Relationships are the point.

What Clark did to Chloe in season 8 is probably just as bad. Clark Kent was simply a revolting individual on Smallville, however, that doesn't mean I'm going to react to every evil act in a manner exactly proportional to how sinister that act was. I'm not claiming to be 100% consistent. Sometimes I let horrible things slide, I think we all do.

I don't feel like getting too much into, but Chloe Sullivan was very much more attracted to Davis Bloome than to Jimmy (Henry) Olsen in season 8, except for the retcon in the episode Doomsfail.
Attracted? I thought you were talking about love? Be consistent. And it wasn't a retcon. There was in fact a deleted scene in a prior episode that highlighted Chloe's desire to save Davis as being the reason for her attraction to him. Of course one wouldn't need it had they been paying attention. Chloe had an attraction to Davis and even an affection for him. Natural, he's a good looking guy and she was on the rebound, and he was pushing himself into her life... But she never loved him. And I don't know why anybody would really believe that. It's like saying you didn't think Davis was a bad guy when he clearly was. Being invested in relationships is completely different from being an obsessive shipper that drops a show because their ship isn't being respected or whatever. I love so many relationships on this show, but I never stopped watching because something happened that I didn't like (which happened a lot), simply because I watched the show to enjoy the fantastic drama, soap opera aspect, so the real question is: Why wouldn't I watch it? Either way, there's no difference between the Chloe and Lois situations, so...

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Old 09-21-2013, 04:28 AM   #809
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Default Re: Amy Adams IS Lois Lane

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Attracted? I thought you were talking about love? Be consistent. And it wasn't a retcon. There was in fact a deleted scene in a prior episode that highlighted Chloe's desire to save Davis as being the reason for her attraction to him. Of course one wouldn't need it had they been paying attention. Chloe had an attraction to Davis and even an affection for him. Natural, he's a good looking guy and she was on the rebound, and he was pushing himself into her life... But she never loved him. And I don't know why anybody would really believe that. It's like saying you didn't think Davis was a bad guy when he clearly was. Being invested in relationships is completely different from being an obsessive shipper that drops a show because their ship isn't being respected or whatever. I love so many relationships on this show, but I never stopped watching because something happened that I didn't like (which happened a lot), simply because I watched the show to enjoy the fantastic drama, soap opera aspect, so the real question is: Why wouldn't I watch it? Either way, there's no difference between the Chloe and Lois situations, so...
I never count deleted scenes, novelisations, and expanded universe novels as part of canon. I only count what's shown, whether it's phantom menace or Smallville. Point is Davis is the one Chloe wanted sexually in the show, over Jimmy. Whether it was crazy mad lust, early love, intense love, etc is not relevant to my point, that Chloe preferred Davis over Jimmy prior to the retcon in the season 8 finale.

As for Pandora, like I said it was the last straw for me. There were a gargantuan number of failures on that show. Smallville was good in its early seasons, and then progressively deteriorated in its later seasons, a lot like Battlestar Galactica. There was no continuity, weak drama, weak characters, and weak world building.

There are differences between the Chloe and Lois situations: two failures is far worse than one failure, it's no less than twice as bad. But now that I think about it.... deleting Lois' memories, mindraping her, is a lot worse than removing a Brainiac parasite.

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Old 09-21-2013, 04:48 AM   #810
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Default Re: Amy Adams IS Lois Lane

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I'm not calling it a perfect film; it had flaws, but it's nowhere near as bad as you're claiming it to be.
It's rated as one of the worst superhero movies of the past few decades by the collective judgment of several hundred experts. You've called these people dumb, but they're in fact a lot better trained than you are.

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you didn't get the film that you wanted?
You're right, I didn't get to see a knockout home run, I didn't get the film I wanted, to continue the analogy, I didn't even get to see a double.

*****

I hope BvS will be better, but I don't have any illusions. Most movie sequels are of comparable quality to the first. I'll still watch it as it was not all bad. For one, it's a much better contiuity than Smallville. For another, I think Amy Adams nailed the material given to her. She was great, I adore her.

I think I've gotten what i wanted here: an understanding of why this movie failed. I've come to terms with it.


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Old 09-21-2013, 04:59 AM   #811
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Default Re: Amy Adams IS Lois Lane

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It's rated as one of the worst superhero movies of the past few decades by the collective judgment of several hundred experts. You've called these people dumb, but they're in fact a lot better trained than you are.



So you're saying that experts who bashed the film due to reasons like them not liking the fact that it wasn't like the Donner Films that they were raised on, or that it wasn't like a Marvel film are people better trained than me?

And you know what....the only opinion that matters most to me in the end is my own, and for any expert to say that MOS was a film far worse than the likes of Wolverine Origins or Green Lantern clearly don't know what they're ****ing talking about.

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Old 09-21-2013, 05:32 AM   #812
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Just a note, hero. The majority of the critics didn't mention the criticisms you're accusing them of having raised. If you'd take the time to actually read the reviews, you'd find that the excessive action, derivative nature of the material and general blockbustery nature is what put critics off. But hey, that's potentially going to bring your entire defense crashing down. Furthermore, if it's only your opinion that matters, why are you here vehemently defending the film to others? Or why are you so indignant about the critics not liking the film? Surely your opinion should leave you very secure regarding the quality of the film. Just saying. Also, if you'd read the list, you'd see that the two films you mentioned are indeed worse reviewed than Man of Steel, so you're heated declaration regarding the possibility to the contrary isn't warranted.

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Old 09-21-2013, 05:41 AM   #813
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Default Re: Amy Adams IS Lois Lane

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Just a note, hero. The majority of the critics didn't mention the criticisms you're accusing them of having raised. If you'd take the time to actually read the reviews, you'd find that the excessive action, derivative nature of the material and general blockbustery nature is what put critics off. But hey, that's potentially going to bring your entire defense crashing down. Furthermore, if it's only your opinion that matters, why are you here vehemently defending the film to others? Or why are you so indignant about the critics not liking the film? Surely your opinion should leave you very secure regarding the quality of the film. Just saying. Also, if you'd read the list, you'd see that the two films you mentioned are indeed worse reviewed than Man of Steel, so you're heated declaration regarding the possibility to the contrary isn't warranted.
Look, I know what the faults the film has; I'm not going to deny that. My main argument with DA started with how that person thought that there was nothing interesting left to do with the development of the relationship between Lois and Clark/Superman.

Also, I was responding to the part where the poster noted that some critics have labeled MOS as being the worse comic book film in years.

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Old 09-21-2013, 05:46 AM   #814
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Irrespective of what your main argument is, it took a detour into an indignant defense of the film with the usual 'I don't care what anyone else thinks' response thrown in. Fine, you don't care. Then don't sit and argue with people about the film since you're wasting their time by not valuing their opinions or deluding yourself to believe this sentiment. Also, he claimed it was rated as one of the worst superhero movies of the last decade. He's not wrong. Go look at the numbers. Whether you value those numbers or not is your prerogative, just read what he said and what he's referring to before making an aggressive assumption. It'll definitely help.

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Old 09-21-2013, 05:55 AM   #815
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Default Re: Amy Adams IS Lois Lane

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Irrespective of what your main argument is, it took a detour into an indignant defense of the film with the usual 'I don't care what anyone else thinks' response thrown in. Fine, you don't care. Then don't sit and argue with people about the film since you're wasting their time by not valuing their opinions or deluding yourself to believe this sentiment. Also, he claimed it was rated as one of the worst superhero movies of the last decade. He's not wrong. Go look at the numbers. Whether you value those numbers or not is your prerogative, just read what he said and what he's referring to before making an aggressive assumption. It'll definitely help.
Now you're just adding words. I never said that"I don't care what anyone else thinks"....I said that my own opinion mattered "most" to me, which means that while I do take in the opinions of others for thought, ultimately, I also rely on my own beliefs to weigh in on the decision, so it's not that I completely ignore what other people have to say.

Heck, I didn't want to believe that the film had issues, I thought at first that it was great, but after reading some of the more compelling arguments about the film, I looked back at it myself at the moments mentioned and I ended up ultimately agreeing with it after looking at it again.

But you know what, maybe that's my mistake for having worded it so poorly and for that I do apologize on that notion.

Be that as it may, and this is a argument that i had made on the MOS board as well, I honestly can't see on why MOS has garnered as much criticism as it has from critics considering on how much leeway was given to previous comic book films.

Yeah, the film has issues, and yeah not all of its ideas were perfectly executed, but I still fail to see on how the likes of X3, Iron Man 2, and even SR is better reviewed than MOS since those films focused a lot on the action and blockbuster like moments, well maybe not so much SR as it was with Spider-Man 3.

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Old 09-21-2013, 06:33 AM   #816
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Default Re: Amy Adams IS Lois Lane

Soooo.......how 'bout that Amy Adams, huh? She's a pistol, isn't she?

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Old 09-21-2013, 06:41 AM   #817
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I never count deleted scenes, novelisations, and expanded universe novels as part of canon. I only count what's shown, whether it's phantom menace or Smallville. Point is Davis is the one Chloe wanted sexually in the show, over Jimmy. Whether it was crazy mad lust, early love, intense love, etc is not relevant to my point, that Chloe preferred Davis over Jimmy prior to the retcon in the season 8 finale.

As for Pandora, like I said it was the last straw for me. There were a gargantuan number of failures on that show. Smallville was good in its early seasons, and then progressively deteriorated in its later seasons, a lot like Battlestar Galactica. There was no continuity, weak drama, weak characters, and weak world building.

There are differences between the Chloe and Lois situations: two failures is far worse than one failure, it's no less than twice as bad. But now that I think about it.... deleting Lois' memories, mindraping her, is a lot worse than removing a Brainiac parasite.
Clark specifically asked Jor-El to take Chloe's memories away. The end. It's the same thing. The adressing of the deleted scene was clearly meant to show that it was never a retcon, which it wasn't. That's a fact. Unless you don't really know what a retcon is? A retcon is a short term for retroactive continuity. Google it. There was no retcon here as it was highlighted in the scene to always be the writers intention. It doesn't matter if it's canon or not. And no, there was never a situation in which Chloe "prefered" Davis over Jimmy. Jimmy broke up with Chloe. And Davis swooped in. Chloe was never put in a situation to show who she "prefered". That's just more shipper nonsense.

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Old 09-21-2013, 06:46 AM   #818
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Soooo.......how 'bout that Amy Adams, huh? She's a pistol, isn't she?
I like her well enough. Although her mouth looked weird in this movie though. It threw me a little.

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Old 09-21-2013, 06:59 AM   #819
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Default Re: Amy Adams IS Lois Lane

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Soooo.......how 'bout that Amy Adams, huh? She's a pistol, isn't she?
Indeed; I'm definitely glad that things came out great in the long run regarding Lois. I still remember the dark days when people were worried that Lois wouldn't even be in the film due to the casting announcement that Warner Bros was supposedly looking for a female lead that wasn't for the role of Lois in this film.

Then, even when Amy was announced, most people thought that Lois wouldn't even have a significant role in the film.

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Old 09-21-2013, 06:59 AM   #820
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Be that as it may, and this is a argument that i had made on the MOS board as well, I honestly can't see on why MOS has garnered as much criticism as it has from critics considering on how much leeway was given to previous comic book films.
Honestly? It's because of the character involved, the creative team involved and ultimately the fact that one of the members of said team set such a high standard for his own films, that you'd expect the same. Something that's really hard to quantify but is vital nevertheless is the fact that most films that have come before and been quote unquote 'worse' haven't been that important to me. But that importance is created by the other factors I mentioned and runs across them as opposed to side by side.

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Old 09-21-2013, 10:16 AM   #821
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Default Re: Amy Adams IS Lois Lane

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I like her well enough. Although her mouth looked weird in this movie though. It threw me a little.
What the heck?

How so lol?

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Old 09-21-2013, 10:19 AM   #822
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Default Re: Amy Adams IS Lois Lane

I don't want to sound like an ass, but her face in general seemed a bit swollen in this face. Might just be post-pregnancy blues.

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Old 09-21-2013, 10:33 AM   #823
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Default Re: Amy Adams IS Lois Lane

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Honestly? It's because of the character involved, the creative team involved and ultimately the fact that one of the members of said team set such a high standard for his own films, that you'd expect the same. Something that's really hard to quantify but is vital nevertheless is the fact that most films that have come before and been quote unquote 'worse' haven't been that important to me. But that importance is created by the other factors I mentioned and runs across them as opposed to side by side.
That's pretty much it for me too. I only care because it's Superman. Terrible movies about Wolverine, Iron Man, Green Lantern, etc can come and go for me, disappointing Superman movies, however, piss me off.

I'd go further, that if they ever made a solo Lois Lane movie (i.e. Lois before she met Superman), or even a Superman movie where he is the secondary character and Lois is the protagonist, I'd care more about that then I would about Thor 5 or whatever.


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Old 09-21-2013, 10:39 AM   #824
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Default Re: Amy Adams IS Lois Lane

I think we're all here because we love the character. That's a good thing.

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Old 09-21-2013, 10:49 AM   #825
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Default Re: Amy Adams IS Lois Lane

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The adressing of the deleted scene was clearly meant to show that it was never a retcon, which it wasn't. That's a fact.
Deleted scenes are not part of the continuity.

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Unless you don't really know what a retcon is? A retcon is a short term for retroactive continuity. Google it.

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