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Old 12-08-2017, 06:27 AM   #76
DerekLake
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Default Re: Should they recast Superman?

The more I think about it, the more I warm up to the idea of a reboot. I loved Man of Steel, hated BvS, and really liked JL, but there are much, much better ways to do a modern take on Superman that give him some creative longevity. While I’d like nothing more than a MOS 2 with Cavill that reboots most of what came before (including Metropolis itself), the reality is that Cavill is likely done, and any attempt to do more with this version will fall flat. He frankly needs a much richer and more exciting world to inhabit, one that allows for better stories. And I’m about convinced that the DCEU just isn’t good enough for Superman.

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Old 12-08-2017, 06:35 AM   #77
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Default Re: Should they recast Superman?

If they’re going to wait to reboot then fine but in the meantime they should do a Superman TV series on the DC streaming channel.

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Old 12-08-2017, 06:51 AM   #78
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Default Re: Should they recast Superman?

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The more I think about it, the more I warm up to the idea of a reboot. I loved Man of Steel, hated BvS, and really liked JL, but there are much, much better ways to do a modern take on Superman that give him some creative longevity. While I’d like nothing more than a MOS 2 with Cavill that reboots most of what came before (including Metropolis itself), the reality is that Cavill is likely done, and any attempt to do more with this version will fall flat. He frankly needs a much richer and more exciting world to inhabit, one that allows for better stories. And I’m about convinced that the DCEU just isn’t good enough for Superman.
Yeah might as well reboot the whole Superman franchise from scratch reboot the whole DCEU as a whole from scratch and start over again

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Old 12-08-2017, 07:02 AM   #79
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Default Re: Should they recast Superman?

I think Gal is the face of the DCEU. Or at least the face of hope of the DCEU. Maybe Cavill and Affleck are the face of the failing DCEU because it's associated with them.

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Old 12-09-2017, 03:59 AM   #80
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Default Re: Should they recast Superman?

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I think Gal is the face of the DCEU. Or at least the face of hope of the DCEU. Maybe Cavill and Affleck are the face of the failing DCEU because it's associated with them.
Thankfully Gal is only the face of WW. Unfortunately both Cavill and Affleck are the faces of the DCEU right now.

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Old 12-09-2017, 05:56 AM   #81
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Default Re: Should they recast Superman?

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Thankfully Gal is only the face of WW. Unfortunately both Cavill and Affleck are the faces of the DCEU right now.
Maybe it might be better to split them off, so that WW isn't dragged down by the rest of the DCEU until they can rebuild their brand with a new Superman and Batman, and then they can join them together again in the future once those are more successful.

At the moment, it might be a bit like putting the X-Men together with Fant4stic. That's what Fox wanted to do before, but after the complete failure of Fant4stic, they decided not to cross them over anymore because Fant4stic would've dragged the X-Men down.

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Old 12-09-2017, 02:27 PM   #82
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Default Re: Should they recast Superman?

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The more I think about it, the more I warm up to the idea of a reboot. I loved Man of Steel, hated BvS, and really liked JL, but there are much, much better ways to do a modern take on Superman that give him some creative longevity. While I’d like nothing more than a MOS 2 with Cavill that reboots most of what came before (including Metropolis itself), the reality is that Cavill is likely done, and any attempt to do more with this version will fall flat. He frankly needs a much richer and more exciting world to inhabit, one that allows for better stories. And I’m about convinced that the DCEU just isn’t good enough for Superman.
Yeah. Reboots usually tend to happen under five conditions

1)If the overarching narrative of the previous franchise has been written into a corner or effectively finished. In other words, its difficult to impossible to move forward creatively given the creative decisions of that version.

2) If the franchise doesn't or no longer clicks with the GA and critics to the point that its fruitless to make another sequel to that version.

3) The box office isn't strong enough to justify continuing with that version.

4) The series is so flawed that recasting the lead or leads in the same continuity isn't sufficient to regain public interest or faith in the series.

5) The fanbase is divided or hates the status quo.

The Webb Amazing Spiderman , The Raimi Spiderman, The Burton/Schumacer Batman, and The Donner/Lester/Singer Superman tended to fit several if not all of those conditions.

Sndyer's Superman and his version of Batman fall into a few if not all of the categories.

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Old 12-09-2017, 05:17 PM   #83
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Default Re: Should they recast Superman?

I'd personally use the easiest tool at hand to soft reboot things via Flashpoint. Like Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do you could keep what's useful, discard the inessential. My main concern during the reviews for JL was that the cast wasn't the problem, just the framework they were placed in. Finding another adequate Superman isn't the easiest task in the world since they're usually great actors, but don't look the part or even worse, look the part but are bland actors. As a lifetime Superman whacko, I can safely say that Mustachegate or not, Cavill was a bright spot of JL for me and this variation of Superman was the first one since 1987 that was decent onscreen in terms of the representation (sans the face or CG) of the character's personality.

Flashpoint for me. No recast or you have to dump the rest of the league to maintain solidarity and avoid confusion to the GP. Even the X-men franchise had missteps at times that made things look dire (X3 or Origins:Wolverine). A few years later and the franchise was running stronger than ever en route to Logan.

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Old 12-09-2017, 08:21 PM   #84
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Default Re: Should they recast Superman?

Yes to a solo Flash movie; no to Flashpoint. The Flash's first solo movie shouldn't be used to fix a defunct cinematic universe. There's no need to explain why Batman looks different anyway since audiences are so used to reboots by now.

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Old 12-09-2017, 10:40 PM   #85
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Default Re: Should they recast Superman?

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Yes to a solo Flash movie; no to Flashpoint. The Flash's first solo movie shouldn't be used to fix a defunct cinematic universe. There's no need to explain why Batman looks different anyway since audiences are so used to reboots by now.
I suppose that part of why I'd love to see Flashpoint is just because I loved the story and it would be awesome see onscreen without the neutered constraints that the CW offering had (as much as I still enjoyed it, though). But thinking logically, JL was the first real tanker in the whole pantheon. Franchises have recovered before. And I think that the entire doom-and-gloom outlook will change if Aquaman succeeds at the box office. Regardless of which path they take, swapping out Supermen is a dumb idea since it's usually such a pain in the rump to cast a new one each time out. It's not like Batman where they can hide his voice and face inside a cowl and effects. Besides, I just loved Henry in the role, man. *LOL*

Warner's problem is that they keep trying to throw money and brand recognition at the problem, instead of scripts and portrayals that supersede those things. Cavill isn't the issue. Management of the whole shooting match is.

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Old 12-10-2017, 12:17 AM   #86
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Default Re: Should they recast Superman?

It is the execs fault and its Snyder's fault, but if you think the average filmgoer who walked out of MOS, or BvS, or JL not liking that version of Superman cares about the inside studio baseball explanation , you're in for a rude awakening.

Its not about what is fair, its about what's gonna get the GA who doesn't like Cavill's version to see a Superman film again.

Some franchises have recovered before ,but not with as many underperformers , bad critical reception, and audience apathy or dislike. Its just not gonna happen.

Its one thing to have ups and downs like the Bond franchise. Its another to consistently turn off the audience and critics time and time again, with diminishing returns as the payoff.

Fair or not, Gadot is the only who resonates with the GA , so she's safe. Time will tell with Aquaman .

Even if it is a hit ,that will only reinforce WB's emphasizing solo films as opposed to rushing into more shared universe based films , so fans shouldn't count on Aquaman's success as saving Affleck or Cavill in their roles, let alone WB not rebooting their franchises.

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Old 12-10-2017, 12:37 AM   #87
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Default Re: Should they recast Superman?

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Its not about what is fair, its about what's gonna get the GA who doesn't like Cavill's version to see a Superman film again.

Some franchises have recovered before ,but not with as many underperformers , bad critical reception, and audience apathy or dislike. Its just not gonna happen.
I don't think hardcore Henry supporters understand just how much Supes has been underwhelming people, since even before he got cast. Between Superman Returns and the terrible trifecta of MOS/BvS/JL, the character's reputation is at its lowest in popularity.

I simply do not see audiences going in droves again when they see Cavill in marketing, regardless of how much changes behind-the-scenes. At this point, I'm not even confident a new face will move the needle in perception.

People who aren't hardcore devotees aren't going out time and time again to an IP they do not like. They'd be fools to continuously pay out of pocket for a high possibility of getting disappointed again.

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Old 12-10-2017, 08:46 AM   #88
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Default Re: Should they recast Superman?

WB put themselves in a bad spot with Superman. Even a reboot is an uphill battle. Last time they were able to let 7 years pass between appearances as SR faded from the public conscious, and had an incredible marketing campaign to generate interest in a new Superman back in 2013. They misplayed those cards.

I could see them sidelining him for a while unless a big director comes along with a great pitch.

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Old 12-10-2017, 10:59 AM   #89
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Default Re: Should they recast Superman?

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I don't think hardcore Henry supporters understand just how much Supes has been underwhelming people, since even before he got cast. Between Superman Returns and the terrible trifecta of MOS/BvS/JL, the character's reputation is at its lowest in popularity.

I simply do not see audiences going in droves again when they see Cavill in marketing, regardless of how much changes behind-the-scenes. At this point, I'm not even confident a new face will move the needle in perception.

People who aren't hardcore devotees aren't going out time and time again to an IP they do not like. They'd be fools to continuously pay out of pocket for a high possibility of getting disappointed again.
Totally. The thing is, as a fan following the development of these films ,you've got to be able to understand the way WB tends to thinks about these projects and how their actions are motivated by maximizing profit from their main consumers being the GA.

Ultimately, WB is in it to make money, and their consumers are the general public who could care less about behind the scenes drama and the all the ins and outs of the DC comics universe. Fans don't like to hear that, but that's the reality.

As long as the general audience is dissatisfied with the product,WB will keep making changes in order to please them regardless of diehard comic fans who rage about the changes.

What's fair, what's just, what and what should happen, are different arguments from what it will take to regain public interest and approval, and what steps the studio will take to make more money.

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Old 12-10-2017, 11:58 AM   #90
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Default Re: Should they recast Superman?

I think this best thing WB to do to shift people's perception of Superman is to do Kingdom Come.

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Old 12-28-2017, 01:39 PM   #91
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Default Re: Should they recast Superman?

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Lol, Cavill stopped being the face of the DCEU as soon as they announced that Batman would be in his sequel.



I'm kinda in two minds about this. I really like Cavill's Superman. But it's a similar situation to how I feel about Zack Snyder; I like MoS and BvS (haven't managed to see JL yet) and would have been happy to see Snyder stay in the DCEU directing chair for the long haul - but the guy is the embodiment of polarising, and if at the end of the day his presence is turning people off and adversely affecting revenue then obviously he has to go (which seems to be what's happened). In all honesty I can't see any justification for not applying the same argument to Cavill; he seems really likeable, he definitely looks the part, and I think he could be great. But if his Superman is irrevocably 'tarnished' in peoples eyes (even if through no fault of his own) then yes, sadly I think he should go.

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Old 12-28-2017, 02:00 PM   #92
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Default Re: Should they recast Superman?

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Speak for yourself there. I haven't especially liked most of the MCU movies because they're bland and they all sort of merge into each other. I vastly prefer the DCEU to the MCU mostly because it does something different, looks vastly different (in terms of the cinematography), and doesn't pander to kids as much. But if the MCU movies started going in the direction of movies like the X-Men franchise at FOX, which feels more "adult" for lack of a better word, then I might start liking them more.
while you have a right to your opinion, you have to admit the DCEU is reactive to the already established highly successful MCU, and for the most part, critical reception has not been that good, especially for the ensemble films they've been straight up bad - bvs, SS and JL, and their performance in the box office kinda backs that up.

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Old 12-28-2017, 02:02 PM   #93
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Default Re: Should they recast Superman?

There's no inherent need to recast Cavill yet. Superman probably won't be getting another solo movie for a long while and Cavill would work out well in a cameo role in other characters' movies.

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Old 12-28-2017, 02:11 PM   #94
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Old 12-28-2017, 02:29 PM   #95
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Default Re: Should they recast Superman?

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WB put themselves in a bad spot with Superman. Even a reboot is an uphill battle. Last time they were able to let 7 years pass between appearances as SR faded from the public conscious, and had an incredible marketing campaign to generate interest in a new Superman back in 2013. They misplayed those cards.

I could see them sidelining him for a while unless a big director comes along with a great pitch.
And if you adjust for inflation, the domestic box office of Man of Steel wasn't substantially higher than Superman Returns. $291 million for Man of Steel and adjusted for inflation $257 million for Superman Returns, only a $34 million difference.
Plus the critics treated MoS a lot worse than SR. 55% for MoS vs a 74% for SR. So even the reboot didn't really put Superman in that good a position.

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Old 12-28-2017, 02:47 PM   #96
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Default Re: Should they recast Superman?

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And if you adjust for inflation, the domestic box office of Man of Steel wasn't substantially higher than Superman Returns. $291 million for Man of Steel and adjusted for inflation $257 million for Superman Returns, only a $34 million difference.
Ah, that's interesting.

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Old 12-28-2017, 02:50 PM   #97
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Default Re: Should they recast Superman?

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If they’re going to wait to reboot then fine but in the meantime they should do a Superman TV series on the DC streaming channel.
Superman does seem to do better on TV. Adventures of Superman lasted several season and might have lasted even longer if George Reeves hadn't been murdered. Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman lasted several seasons and only dropped in the ratings after ABC started screwing around with the day and time. Smallville lasted for ten seasons. Supergirl is in her third season and looks to get at least a fourth season. While there have only been two Superman movies that would be considered successful, Superman: The Movie and Superman II.

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Old 12-28-2017, 02:55 PM   #98
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Superman has been given weak scripts in the movies. Once he is actually used to his full potential I am sure the audience will be there to embrace him.

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Old 12-28-2017, 08:28 PM   #99
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Default Re: Should they recast Superman?

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I think this best thing WB to do to shift people's perception of Superman is to do Kingdom Come.
Kingdom Come is one of the greatest comic book stories ever written but I feel like that's a story you adapt to conclude something. It would be a perfect ending to a Superman or JL trilogy (provided the first two movies were good and profitable).

Trying to reboot Superman by loosely adapting Kingdom Come is like rebooting Batman by loosely adapting The Dark Knight Returns (and we already know how that turned out). If you're planning to get some longevity out of the character, you don't start at the end of the story.


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Old 12-28-2017, 09:01 PM   #100
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I think that story needs to be animated if you want it to be accurate.

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