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Old 03-05-2018, 02:23 PM   #251
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Default Re: What makes TDK so special?

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Originally Posted by Herofan View Post
Well it tried to and even said it did but I don't think it really did and it was particularly weak in the resolutions.
How is it realistic or relate to the real world or challenging to have a villain with no specific background and no specific motivation other than just wanting to see things burn and for people to turn against each other?
To each their own on the bolded part but to your other point
Alfred encapsulates this well in his Burma story that he relays to Bruce. ''Some men just wanna see the world burn.'' Sometimes in life there is no logical reason for why some people commits acts of evil. And that's terrifying.

The Joker himself is presented as this terrorist(which Harvey even calls him at one point in the movie) that just wants to tear down order-that to me living in a world post-9/11 feels very real or at the very least grounded in our world.


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Old 03-05-2018, 02:27 PM   #252
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Default Re: What makes TDK so special?

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Originally Posted by Herofan View Post
Well it tried to and even said it did but I don't think it really did and it was particularly weak in the resolutions.
How is it realistic or relate to the real world or challenging to have a villain with no specific background and no specific motivation other than just wanting to see things burn and for people to turn against each other?
First of all it definitely did it. As for doing it well I think it definitely did. Resolutions and all. Second, it's not the Joker's lack of background that makes it related any more than him dressing like a clown. It's the anarchic terrorism he ensues and the effect it has on Gotham.

E.g. https://www.christiancinema.com/cata...ticles_id=5936

In fact the trilogy itself is often considered an allegory on terrorism; https://armchairacademic.wordpress.c...night-trilogy/

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To me the way society reacted felt pretty arbitrary-the public seems to support Batman then turns on him to prevent more assassinations by the Joker. Then crowds very much want to blow up the other ferry but in the end are able to barely decide to not do so and Batman decides the end result means people proved Joker wrong. Then he thinks the public and society *will* crumble if with Harvey Joker proved himself right but by preserving Harvey's legacy and darkening his own the public will not turn bad and Joker can be firmly proven wrong.
When in the movie do you see the public showing support for Batman? The biggest and only vocal Batman supporter in the movie is the one person who ends up turning into the thing Joker tries to do to the Gothamites on the ferries.

Second, the crowds want to blow up the ferries to save themselves, but when push came to shove nobody had it in them to become a killer. Proving Joker wrong. You can wish someone dead. But wanting something and being the kind of person who can do it are apples and oranges.

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Also Batman (as a symbol for social authority generally?) creates his mass surveillance system given the emergency but has it destroyed with the conclusion of the emergency-I think that rather than realistic that's both naive for Batman to do (when another supervillain and emergency could soon occur) and naive for the film to imply authorities in general would do so.
I've seen you mention this before and I don't get your hang up on it. Batman didn't need a surveillance system like this to find Ra's or Scarecrow. He didn't need it to stop Bane in Rises. So why would you think he would need it again so much that he should keep it around? Second of all, even if he did what exactly would stop Bruce Wayne from rebuilding a device like this? Was there some line in the movie that said this was a once in a lifetime opportunity? They have the tech, resources, and the know how to make another if need be.

Finally, where does it imply the authorities in general would do this?

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Old 03-05-2018, 04:47 PM   #253
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Default Re: What makes TDK so special?

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Originally Posted by Detective Conan View Post
To each their own on the bolded part but to your other point
Alfred encapsulates this well in his Burma story that he relays to Bruce. ''Some men just wanna see the world burn.'' Sometimes in life there is no logical reason for why some people commits acts of evil. And that's terrifying.

The Joker himself is presented as this terrorist(which Harvey even calls him at one point in the movie) that just wants to tear down order-that to me living in a world post-9/11 feels very real or at the very least grounded in our world.
I don't see how-in real life both crimes and terrorism seemed to be based on individuals and/or groups that have motivations and goals, ones that are twisted and/or callous but also at least have a bit more sense and reason than just wanting to hurt people for the sake of hurting them or to prove a point.
Modern terrorism and political extremism/fanaticism generally seems much more about wanting to have more order, albeit with different authorities in place, rather than less. Anarchism seems to have little influence on, let alone threat to, society aside from (to the extent its considered a problem) hacktivism.

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When in the movie do you see the public showing support for Batman? The biggest and only vocal Batman supporter in the movie is the one person who ends up turning into the thing Joker tries to do to the Gothamites on the ferries.
Yeah, maybe it was mostly just the imitators and Dent. Although Dent, who has public support, says the city is proud of him and has "been happy to let the Batman" operate.

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Second, the crowds want to blow up the ferries to save themselves, but when push came to shove nobody had it in them to become a killer. Proving Joker wrong.
It was impressive that they restrained themselves (although a bit implausible that a whole ship of criminals would) but it still seems a bit much for Batman and the film to proclaim that makes the Joker wrong. And odd that soon after Batman thinks Harvey having been corrupted will be interpreted by the public to mean that the Joker was right.

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I've seen you mention this before and I don't get your hang up on it. Batman didn't need a surveillance system like this to find Ra's or Scarecrow. He didn't need it to stop Bane in Rises. So why would you think he would need it again so much that he should keep it around?
In the film Joker claims they will be fighting forever followed by Batman just saying he'll be locked up forever even though he's shown before he's pretty skilled at being able to escape (and also not care about being physically punished).

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Second of all, even if he did what exactly would stop Bruce Wayne from rebuilding a device like this? Was there some line in the movie that said this was a once in a lifetime opportunity? They have the tech, resources, and the know how to make another if need be.
Well yes he certainly could, but that makes/would make him having it destroyed (which is presented as a righteous, triumphant moment) seem a very hollow, insincere stand, it's OK in emergencies but not in general but if emergencies happen often (which society's leaders feel generally is the case) then that's a bit of a distinction without a difference. Very trying to have it both ways.

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Finally, where does it imply the authorities in general would do this?
Well others including Conan and your links say the film is about how society responds to terror; Batman, although not actually a government authority, functions to enforce laws or at least be an agent of order fighting the agent of chaos (and in real life the agents of order and law enforcement are government authorities).
To the extent the film is supposed to be a commentary on real world terror, that it has its hero engaging in the surveillance (and saving the city because he does) and then refrain from doing so implies that it's OK for real-world government agents of order to have that power because they can also be trusted to use it only in emergencies rather than always.


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Old 03-05-2018, 11:30 PM   #254
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Default Re: What makes TDK so special?

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Yeah, maybe it was mostly just the imitators and Dent. Although Dent, who has public support, says the city is proud of him and has "been happy to let the Batman" operate.
The press conference showed you Gotham's attitude to Batman. "Outlaw vigilante" they called him. If Gotham City was proud of him, you wouldn't have the Mayor on TV saying they are hunting him down to be arrested. That's not how you win over your public by arresting someone they support. Dent pointed out they were happy to let him clean up their streets. That doesn't mean they are fans of him. It means they were tolerating him because he was doing what the authorities hadn't been able to. People will tolerate an unorthodox presence if its doing them a service.

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It was impressive that they restrained themselves (although a bit implausible that a whole ship of criminals would) but it still seems a bit much for Batman and the film to proclaim that makes the Joker wrong. And odd that soon after Batman thinks Harvey having been corrupted will be interpreted by the public to mean that the Joker was right.
When ships full of Gotham citizens and criminals with their lives on the line don't press the button to kill to save themselves, then what other greater example could there be to proclaim Joker wrong?

Batman doesn't want Harvey's good work undone, and the city to lose hope. That's what he's trying to save.

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In the film Joker claims they will be fighting forever followed by Batman just saying he'll be locked up forever even though he's shown before he's pretty skilled at being able to escape (and also not care about being physically punished).
Two things;

1. Joker allowed himself to be captured before because he wanted to be. He had an escape plan all ready made. That was all by his own design. Not the same as being captured and incarcerated and not wanting to be with no escape plan ready.
2. What has physical punishment got to do with being locked up forever?

Also, even if Joker did escape again, since when is surveillance sonar the only way he could be tracked down again? I don't get your logic on this. These are fabrications of your own making.

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Well yes he certainly could, but that makes/would make him having it destroyed (which is presented as a righteous, triumphant moment) seem a very hollow, insincere stand, it's OK in emergencies but not in general but if emergencies happen often (which society's leaders feel generally is the case) then that's a bit of a distinction without a difference. Very trying to have it both ways.
That's not the point. If an emergency of city wide scale like in TDK crops up and this unorthodox method could save many lives, who is going to look down their nose at him using it again? Do you think anyone with two brain cells to rub together is going to say no to saving millions of lives because of some spying morality?

You're acting like Batman destroying that device meant he could never ever use it again even if he wanted to.

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Well others including Conan and your links say the film is about how society responds to terror; Batman, although not actually a government authority, functions to enforce laws or at least be an agent of order fighting the agent of chaos (and in real life the agents of order and law enforcement are government authorities).
To the extent the film is supposed to be a commentary on real world terror, that it has its hero engaging in the surveillance (and saving the city because he does) and then refrain from doing so implies that it's OK for real-world government agents of order to have that power because they can also be trusted to use it only in emergencies rather than always.
Batman is not society. He doesn't represent society in the movie. He's an outlaw vigilante. Those links saying that's how society responds to terror is in reference to Gotham, not Batman himself.

Batman's use of sonar surveillance is not a reflection of a Government response.

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Old 03-06-2018, 11:00 AM   #255
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Default Re: What makes TDK so special?

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The press conference showed you Gotham's attitude to Batman. "Outlaw vigilante" they called him.
That was after the Joker started his assassination campaign and linked its continuation to Batman continuing to be tolerated. But sure, it was initially more like that the public was overall very ambivalent about him and so mostly tolerated him, liking his services and results but not his methods, rather than just supporting him.

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Batman doesn't want Harvey's good work undone, and the city to lose hope. That's what he's trying to save.
I don't think the film, especially with its just-before counter-example of the ferries, was convincing that discovering Dent had been corrupted would mean the city would lose all hope and that, as Gordon interpreted, "The Joker won."

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Joker allowed himself to be captured before because he wanted to be. He had an escape plan all ready made. That was all by his own design. Not the same as being captured and incarcerated and not wanting to be with no escape plan ready.
Through the film the Joker was portrayed as being several steps ahead of everyone else and great at manipulating them (part of his escape was just tricking a cop into trying to attack him and using him as a hostage, more than that was needed but might not have been), and also getting and using explosives, it would be very implausible for him to just run out of tricks and schemes and not be able to come up with something new later. It would take him some time to come up with and enact another plan but likely not a lot.

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even if Joker did escape again, since when is surveillance sonar the only way he could be tracked down again?
It's not the only way but it also probably wasn't really the only way he could have that time. Batman doesn't give a unique justification for why he's got to use it then. Implicitly the justification is Joker is particularly ruthless and admittedly is unique in (unrealistically) not having a motive other than being sadistic and wanting disorder for its own sake.

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If an emergency of city wide scale like in TDK crops up and this unorthodox method could save many lives, who is going to look down their nose at him using it again? Do you think anyone with two brain cells to rub together is going to say no to saving millions of lives because of some spying morality?
Most people wouldn't but Fox didn't want to (hopefully many people in law enforcement would refuse if it was against the law) and the film portrays that as a reasonable, admirable position. One worth ending all of his future cooperation with Batman. A position Batman himself somewhat but not fully sympathizes with.

I think it would have been more interesting, dramatic and realistic if Nolan had allowed the disagreement between heroes Batman and Fox to continue after the crisis, with Fox actually quitting due to the system, rather than backtrack with Batman actually being even more in sympathy with Fox's position than was initially presented.

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Batman is not society. He doesn't represent society in the movie. He's an outlaw vigilante. Those links saying that's how society responds to terror is in reference to Gotham, not Batman himself.

Batman's use of sonar surveillance is not a reflection of a Government response.
He is a vigilante but he's also the film's agent of order and in real life those are the executive and police.

Additionally, the film's commentary, both direct and implied, was that sometimes (though only in brief emergencies) society *needs* someone to act unencumbered by laws and regulations to save society, including its chance to have any law and order at all. Although it also does admit having that kind of power can be corrupting and though necessary such a powerful figure shouldn't be viewed as a role model.

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Old 03-06-2018, 11:23 AM   #256
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Default Re: What makes TDK so special?

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Originally Posted by Herofan View Post
That was after the Joker started his assassination campaign and linked its continuation to Batman continuing to be tolerated. But sure, it was initially more like that the public was overall very ambivalent about him and so mostly tolerated him, liking his services and results but not his methods, rather than just supporting him.
Exactly. Think back to the earlier conversation with Dent, Rachel, the ballerina lady, and Bruce. Dent is the only vocal supporter of Batman at the table. In fact when you look at the trilogy as a whole, the only time you see unanimous support from Gotham towards Batman was at the end of Rises after he gave his life to save them. Before that the only times you saw any support from him from Gothamites was from the Narrows kid, that socialite lady in the hotel scene with Bruce and Earle, from Dent, and from Blake.

Nolan never ever tried to sell the impression Gotham was a city proud of Batman.

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I don't think the film, especially with its just-before counter-example of the ferries, was convincing that discovering Dent had been corrupted would mean the city would lose all hope and that, as Gordon interpreted, "The Joker won."
No offense, but whether you were convinced by it or not is your own personal issue. The movie made it clear long before this that Dent being caught in any shady or illegal behavior would crumble all the hope and good work he had done e.g. when Batman caught him terrorizing Thomas Schiff in the alley.

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Through the film the Joker was portrayed as being several steps ahead of everyone else and great at manipulating them (part of his escape was just tricking a cop into trying to attack him and using him as a hostage, more than that was needed but might not have been), and also getting and using explosives, it would be very implausible for him to just run out of tricks and schemes and not be able to come up with something new later. It would take him some time to come up with and enact another plan but likely not a lot.
Right, because throughout the movie Joker planned everything before he carried it out. You pointing out him easily escaping from custody is not a valid example when he allowed and wanted to be caught as part of his plan, with a ready made escape tactic in place, too. Nothing like him being caught and imprisoned against his will with no plans for an escape all set up.

That's not me saying Joker couldn't ever escape again, especially if they are as comic faithful to him as they had been in TDK. But the point is Batman believing Joker being locked up forever is not some critical flaw of the movie or his character.

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It's not the only way but it also probably wasn't really the only way he could have that time. Batman doesn't give a unique justification for why he's got to use it then. Implicitly the justification is Joker is particularly ruthless and admittedly is unique in (unrealistically) not having a motive other than being sadistic and wanting disorder for its own sake.
Yes, he does have a unique justification since the city was being evacuated, millions of lives on a midnight deadline, and with Joker broadcasting messages it was the quickest and easiest way to track him down and stop him before he blew up millions of people.

Could Batman have found another way to find him? Sure if he had the luxury of more time. But he was on a clock. Desperate time called for desperate measures. And if the worst thing he had to do was eavesdrop on some Gothamites during a city wide evacuation, then boo-hoo to their privacy. He saved their lives.

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Most people wouldn't but Fox didn't want to (hopefully many people in law enforcement would refuse if it was against the law) and the film portrays that as a reasonable, admirable position. One worth ending all of his future cooperation with Batman. A position Batman himself somewhat but not fully sympathizes with.
Fox didn't want to, but he did it for the greater good. Just like Batman. And they destroyed the device afterward. Fox is not law enforcement. He is already breaking the law by supplying an outlaw vigilante with equipment for his mission. He's already crossed the legality line.

This was a morality issue. And even he didn't say no to saving lives.

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I think it would have been more interesting, dramatic and realistic if Nolan had allowed the disagreement between heroes Batman and Fox to continue after the crisis, with Fox actually quitting due to the system, rather than backtrack with Batman actually being even more in sympathy with Fox's position than was initially presented.
Why would that be more interesting and dramatic? It would make Fox look like a hypocrite for a start. He quits because they had to spy on some people to save millions of lives in a once off event. But he's ok consistently supplying Batman with tech that blows up city property, also in the quest to save lives.

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He is a vigilante but he's also the film's agent of order and in real life those are the executive and police.
No, in the movie he's the hero of the piece in a comic book story. The Police are still very much the Police, and representing the official law and order of the story.

Unless you're trying to tell me the movie is trying to paint official law and order as something that does outlandish stunts like flipping trucks, snagging international criminals by sky hook methods, dropping suspects off balconies to get them to talk etc.

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Additionally, the film's commentary, both direct and implied, was that sometimes (though only in brief emergencies) society *needs* someone to act unencumbered by laws and regulations to save society, including its chance to have any law and order at all. Although it also does admit having that kind of power can be corrupting and though necessary such a powerful figure shouldn't be viewed as a role model.
Yeah, that's commentary on vigilantism. Like Batman being able to get Lau because he's not hindered by jurisdiction. What official government or law enforcement authority could do that?

Again you are misreading the movie's message. Batman is not reflective of official law enforcement or even society.

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Old 03-06-2018, 12:14 PM   #257
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Default Re: What makes TDK so special?

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Right, because throughout the movie Joker planned everything before he carried it out. You pointing out him easily escaping from custody is not a valid example when he allowed and wanted to be caught as part of his plan, with a ready made escape tactic in place, too. Nothing like him being caught and imprisoned against his will with no plans for an escape all set up.
Him being able to take and use a hostage does not depend on him having a big plan, he could do that easily on its own and the film suggests he could also pretty easily trick and manipulate people to pretty-soon get a bomb around his location.

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That's not me saying Joker couldn't ever escape again, especially if they are as comic faithful to him as they had been in TDK. But the point is Batman believing Joker being locked up forever is not some critical flaw of the movie or his character.
To each their own but to me it seems badly contradictory and Batman's confidence pretty unjustified.

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Yes, he does have a unique justification since the city was being evacuated, millions of lives on a midnight deadline, and with Joker broadcasting messages it was the quickest and easiest way to track him down and stop him before he blew up millions of people.

Could Batman have found another way to find him? Sure if he had the luxury of more time. But he was on a clock. Desperate time called for desperate measures. And if the worst thing he had to do was eavesdrop on some Gothamites during a city wide evacuation, then boo-hoo to their privacy. He saved their lives.
That would apply to any bad guy who both used explosives and made a threat with a deadline. And Joker didn't directly threaten he would blow up people, let alone millions, just that they would be playing by his rules (although given his past acts I guess that's probably implicit, though he probably didn't have enough explosives to use against millions). He did directly threaten to blow up both ferries but I doubt (though everyone wanted to and many were trying to evacuate) that's a large amount of the whole city population.

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Why would that be more interesting and dramatic? It would make Fox look like a hypocrite for a start. He quits because they had to spy on some people to save millions of lives in a once off event. But he's ok consistently supplying Batman with tech that blows up city property, also in the quest to save lives.
Maybe quirky but not a hypocrite. Fox felt the former was worse because it gave a man too much power (which could be abused) and he presumed it was and would not be a once-off event. I presume like Alfred he was bothered by the tech blowing up city property and assumed it wouldn't happen on an ongoing basis although looking back at BB I guess he didn't say so and didn't seem bothered by it.
Given that Batman has encountered freaks and extremists before, that Joker insisted that both of them but actually particularly Batman changed things forever (and Gordon also believed Batman would cause escalation) and that in real life terrorist threats and attacks are not rare I don't see why he would feel feel that the system was and should be a once-off event.

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No, in the movie he's the hero of the piece in a comic book story. The Police are still very much the Police, and representing the official law and order of the story.

Unless you're trying to tell me the movie is trying to paint official law and order as something that does outlandish stunts like flipping trucks, snagging international criminals by sky hook methods, dropping suspects off balconies to get them to talk etc.
Sure the plot specifics are exaggerated for entertainment. But I don't think the film objects to (real authorities) using force to get information from suspects other than that since doing so is against the law doing so can hurt the prosecution's case (and for some fanatics like the Joker it doesn't have the intended effect). So it would be OK if it was legal or if no one found out about it. Likewise it's OK for a government to kidnap people from other countries if the government were able to avoid getting caught.

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Old 03-06-2018, 02:25 PM   #258
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Default Re: What makes TDK so special?

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Him being able to take and use a hostage does not depend on him having a big plan, he could do that easily on its own and the film suggests he could also pretty easily trick and manipulate people to pretty-soon get a bomb around his location.
The movie makes no such implication. His big plan was to get caught so he could get to Lau. Then his escape depended on him detonating the bomb in his loony thug's stomach. The details on how he did that did not depend on a hostage. It depended on him making a phone call. Which all prisoners are legally entitled to. He simply used a hostage get that since the GCPD were refusing him his call.

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To each their own but to me it seems badly contradictory and Batman's confidence pretty unjustified.
It doesn't contradict anything, and Batman's confidence has no reason to be unjustified at this stage. We are not in the revolving door at Arkham constantly escaping Joker phase at this point.

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That would apply to any bad guy who both used explosives and made a threat with a deadline. And Joker didn't directly threaten he would blow up people, let alone millions, just that they would be playing by his rules (although given his past acts I guess that's probably implicit, though he probably didn't have enough explosives to use against millions). He did directly threaten to blow up both ferries but I doubt (though everyone wanted to and many were trying to evacuate) that's a large amount of the whole city population.
No, it wouldn't. Unless he deals with threats on a regular basis that involve epic scales of the city being evacuated and millions of lives threatened on a deadline basis of a matter of hours.

Which you know he doesn't. This was a rare and unique situation. He didn't even need such tactics when dealing with Ra's or Bane. Your problems with this are all unfounded fabrications of your own making.

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Maybe quirky but not a hypocrite. Fox felt the former was worse because it gave a man too much power (which could be abused) and he presumed it was and would not be a once-off event. I presume like Alfred he was bothered by the tech blowing up city property and assumed it wouldn't happen on an ongoing basis although looking back at BB I guess he didn't say so and didn't seem bothered by it.
Given that Batman has encountered freaks and extremists before, that Joker insisted that both of them but actually particularly Batman changed things forever (and Gordon also believed Batman would cause escalation) and that in real life terrorist threats and attacks are not rare I don't see why he would feel feel that the system was and should be a once-off event.
Quirky? How is it quirky to happily supply Batman with tech that blows up vehicles, buildings, and all other kinds of property. But is willing to quit over a one time situation that involved an unethical method that invaded people's privacy.

That is the very definition of illogical and hypocrite.

Since as you so correctly point out he dealt with freaks and terrorist threats before and successfully defeated them without the need of the sonar device, why you are using this one off situation as a crutch that it would be needed again doesn't make a lick of sense.

But even if we entertain this silly logic, as already pointed out if they were ever again in a situation like this that required it again, nothing is to stop them making it again. And unless they are a brain dead idiot, nobody is going to say no to saving millions of lives at the brief expense of people's privacy.

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Sure the plot specifics are exaggerated for entertainment. But I don't think the film objects to (real authorities) using force to get information from suspects other than that since doing so is against the law doing so can hurt the prosecution's case (and for some fanatics like the Joker it doesn't have the intended effect). So it would be OK if it was legal or if no one found out about it. Likewise it's OK for a government to kidnap people from other countries if the government were able to avoid getting caught.
By that silly logic all heroes in movies are the government since they all use OTT methods to get justice done.

The movie sends no such message. It is showing how vigilantism is working to the aid the law. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Old 03-06-2018, 03:38 PM   #259
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Unless he deals with threats on a regular basis that involve epic scales of the city being evacuated and millions of lives threatened on a deadline basis of a matter of hours.

Which you know he doesn't. This was a rare and unique situation. He didn't even need such tactics when dealing with Ra's or Bane.
In the first film he did face a deadline that threatened millions of lives, not explosives but the toxin would lead to the city destroying itself, killing millions. He didn't know where Ra's was or would be but he found out because he was lucky enough to hear from witness Rachel.

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Quirky? How is it quirky to happily supply Batman with tech that blows up vehicles, buildings, and all other kinds of property. But is willing to quit over a one time situation that involved an unethical method that invaded people's privacy.
He didn't know the situation was one-time and he presumably, OTOH, did assume the properly damage would be very rare.

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But even if we entertain this silly logic, as already pointed out if they were ever again in a situation like this that required it again, nothing is to stop them making it again.
It's not a problem that they couldn't, the problem is that since they could it seems insincere and hollow for the film to act as if destroying it is a righteous and triumphant moment.

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By that silly logic all heroes in movies are the government since they all use OTT methods to get justice done.
A significant difference is that they usually aren't working with the legal authorities.

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The movie sends no such message. It is showing how vigilantism is working to the aid the law.
But to the extent that it's meant to be a serious commentary on real world terrorism/violence it implies that, in crisis situations, real authorities also should not be bound by legal constraints (being bound by them is less morally important than saving the society). That's admittedly an interpretation but it seems you agree that was its moral message although probably only applicable in fiction rather than the real world.

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Old 03-06-2018, 05:06 PM   #260
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Default Re: What makes TDK so special?

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Over two years ago, I got into a debate with a poster in another forum who thinks Dark Knight was a bad film(he actually thinks Dark Knight Rises is better)

Here's a snippet of what he said.

Here's my whole debate in the link. I'm known as Amadeus Arkham.

http://community.comicbookresources....s-Ranked/page2

While I am a firm believer in respecting one's opinion I do think the poster was somewhat mistaken in his assessment of the film so I debated for a bit until I decided to agree to disagree with him and moved on. This debate prompted me to think further why it worked so well for so many others.

First things first, I disagree with the common assertion that Heath Ledger is what made the film great or just the acting. Granted, it was certainly one facet of what made the great but I think why the Dark Knight struck such a chord was simply because it was the first superhero film to really present itself as seriously as 'real' films such as The Godfather. Yeah, sure, there were technically the Singer X-films before that sort of took the genre seriously but in the end they still maintained the overall comic book movie feel IMO. Dark Knight was able to poise tough questions that were resonant and really identifiable in a real world context in a way no comic book movie before did.

Film Critic Hulk says it best when he explains why Dark Knight was so loved while Rises divided fans.



'Nuff said.
Loved Film Critic Hulk's feelings on why he felt The Dark Knight worked. I wholeheartedly agree.

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Old 03-06-2018, 05:42 PM   #261
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Default Re: What makes TDK so special?

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In the first film he did face a deadline that threatened millions of lives, not explosives but the toxin would lead to the city destroying itself, killing millions. He didn't know where Ra's was or would be but he found out because he was lucky enough to hear from witness Rachel.
No, he didn't. Rachel didn't tell him anything about the train or where Ra's. Rewatch the finale of Begins. He worked out Ra's would use the train with the microwave emitter aboard to cause a chain reaction across the city. Then he find Gordon, tells him all of this, and asks him to drive stick in the Batmobile. Then he goes and saves Rachel from Scarecrow.

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He didn't know the situation was one-time and he presumably, OTOH, did assume the properly damage would be very rare.
It doesn't matter because he made the decision that he would only help this one time, and as long as they had that sonar machine there he wouldn't be. As far as he was concerned this was a one off situation for him. Contrast to Batman consistently causing property damage in each movie, and Lucius never says a word about it.

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It's not a problem that they couldn't, the problem is that since they could it seems insincere and hollow for the film to act as if destroying it is a righteous and triumphant moment.
It is a righteous and triumphant moment. Just because they could do it again doesn't mean they will.

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A significant difference is that they usually aren't working with the legal authorities.
Not in any official or legal capacity. Gordon and the decent Cops look the other way. Do you see public officials on TV disown the people they work with and say the official policy is to arrest them?

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But to the extent that it's meant to be a serious commentary on real world terrorism/violence it implies that, in crisis situations, real authorities also should not be bound by legal constraints (being bound by them is less morally important than saving the society). That's admittedly an interpretation but it seems you agree that was its moral message although probably only applicable in fiction rather than the real world.
It doesn't imply anything of the sort. That's your interpretation, and it doesn't make a lick of sense. Batman is not any kind of official authority figure in any legal capacity. He is not officially or even publicly endorsed by the Police. Gordon or the Mayor doesn't tell him or even ask him to do any of the things he does.

The movie is not sending a message that this is what society or the law does. If you believe that, then again that is your interpretation. But it makes no sense. This isn't the 60's Batman show where you have Gordon telling the press that Batman and Robin are fully deputized agents of the law.

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Old 03-06-2018, 05:55 PM   #262
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Default Re: What makes TDK so special?

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I don't see how-in real life both crimes and terrorism seemed to be based on individuals and/or groups that have motivations and goals, ones that are twisted and/or callous but also at least have a bit more sense and reason than just wanting to hurt people for the sake of hurting them or to prove a point.
Modern terrorism and political extremism/fanaticism generally seems much more about wanting to have more order, albeit with different authorities in place, rather than less. Anarchism seems to have little influence on, let alone threat to, society aside from (to the extent its considered a problem) hacktivism.
Here's a definition of terrorism.

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Terroism, in the broadest sense, the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror, or fear, to achieve a financial, political, religious or ideological aim
Think about the Joker's ideological aim - He simply wants to create a lawless society, chaotic society that doesn't operate on under these imaginary things like rules. He essentially wants to disseminate the nihilistic message that society's adherence to age-old 'civilized' concepts such as 'order' are futile; as he says to Batman "The only way to live is without rules." Joker weaponizes fear by orchestrating these acts of terror.


Last edited by Detective Conan; 03-06-2018 at 07:00 PM.
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:22 PM   #263
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Default Re: What makes TDK so special?

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No, he didn't. Rachel didn't tell him anything about the train or where Ra's. Rewatch the finale of Begins. He worked out Ra's would use the train with the microwave emitter aboard to cause a chain reaction across the city.
He deduces that based on Rachel having witnessed and told Batman what Ra's men were doing.

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Not in any official or legal capacity.
Not officially, not officially openly, but actually pretty openly what with shining the Bat signal from police headquarters.

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The movie is not sending a message that this is what society or the law does. If you believe that, then again that is your interpretation. But it makes no sense. This isn't the 60's Batman show where you have Gordon telling the press that Batman and Robin are fully deputized agents of the law.
Sure but presumably it has a message about what society should do. You said spying in order to save lives was a morality issue, the film presented it as morally questionable but still right and you also said you thought it obviously was morally right.

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Think about the Joker's ideological aim - He simply wants to create a lawless society, chaotic society that doesn't operate on under these imaginary things like rules. He essentially wants to disseminate the nihilistic message that society's adherence to age-old 'civilized' concepts such as 'order' are futile; as he says to Batman "The only way to live is without rules." Joker weaponizes fear by orchestrating these acts of terror.
Yes he had that aim, of transforming society, and used terrorist methods to try to achieve that aim but I don't think that makes the story seem serious or resonant to the real world given that real terrorists have very different aims, aims usually less extreme and less hard to understand or react to than wanting anarchy due to misanthropy.

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Old 03-06-2018, 10:32 PM   #264
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Default Re: What makes TDK so special?

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He deduces that based on Rachel having witnessed and told Batman what Ra's men were doing.
No, based on what he witnessed. You'll recall he tailed Rachel to Arkham and saw everything she did, and saved her life. She didn't have to tell him a single thing.

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Not officially, not officially openly, but actually pretty openly what with shining the Bat signal from police headquarters.
Exactly. Not officially and not openly. So how does this equate to Batman representing the government or society? Is Daredevil, the "hero of Hell's Kitchen" in the T.V. show representing society because he works with some of the Cops occasionally?

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Sure but presumably it has a message about what society should do. You said spying in order to save lives was a morality issue, the film presented it as morally questionable but still right and you also said you thought it obviously was morally right.
Again, Batman is not society, and the movie does not give the message that he is. Or that he is sanctioned in any way legally to what he does.

What's morally right has nothing to do with what society should do. If the movie was sending messages that society should take the law into it's own hands against terrorism, there would have been a backlash against it.

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Old 03-06-2018, 10:44 PM   #265
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Default Re: What makes TDK so special?

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Yes he had that aim, of transforming society, and used terrorist methods to try to achieve that aim but I don't think that makes the story seem serious or resonant to the real world given that real terrorists have very different aims, aims usually less extreme and less hard to understand or react to than wanting anarchy due to misanthropy.
Joker is still a terrorist in its basic definition - sure he doesn't resemble some profiles of terrorists but doesn't make him any less of one(or the very least a character that can in someway be associated with the idea of terrorism). Joker wants to wreak havoc to upset the status quo and facilitate change - or a radical shift in society.

When I say the Dark Knight is 'identifiable' to the real world - I'm just talking to it's ability portray and realize its ideas/themes in a way that's immediately 'relatable' to the audience (Agree to disagree if you want). It's rather telling that many critics made parallels to 9/11 and 'War On Terror'(conservatives commonly drew this specific parallel) and that's because of what I said before about the film being 'relatable' or 'identifiable' enough to the audience that many can bring in what they know of real life into the story.


Last edited by Detective Conan; 03-06-2018 at 10:54 PM.
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Old 03-07-2018, 12:08 AM   #266
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Default Re: What makes TDK so special?

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Joker is still a terrorist in its basic definition - sure he doesn't resemble some profiles of terrorists but doesn't make him any less of one(or the very least a character that can in someway be associated with the idea of terrorism). Joker wants to wreak havoc to upset the status quo and facilitate change - or a radical shift in society.

When I say the Dark Knight is 'identifiable' to the real world - I'm just talking to it's ability portray and realize its ideas/themes in a way that's immediately 'relatable' to the audience
Fair enough.

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What's morally right has nothing to do with what society should do. If the movie was sending messages that society should take the law into it's own hands against terrorism, there would have been a backlash against it.
I'm surprised that there hasn't been more of a backlash, or at least controversy, claims that its messages and implications were offputting or offensive but I guess it succeeded in having most viewers think it was mostly balanced and liking that it was balanced rather than consider that to be a copout or deceptive.

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Old 03-12-2018, 11:17 AM   #267
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Default Re: What makes TDK so special?

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Joker is still a terrorist in its basic definition - sure he doesn't resemble some profiles of terrorists but doesn't make him any less of one(or the very least a character that can in someway be associated with the idea of terrorism). Joker wants to wreak havoc to upset the status quo and facilitate change - or a radical shift in society.

When I say the Dark Knight is 'identifiable' to the real world - I'm just talking to it's ability portray and realize its ideas/themes in a way that's immediately 'relatable' to the audience (Agree to disagree if you want). It's rather telling that many critics made parallels to 9/11 and 'War On Terror'(conservatives commonly drew this specific parallel) and that's because of what I said before about the film being 'relatable' or 'identifiable' enough to the audience that many can bring in what they know of real life into the story.
What you said.

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