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Old 11-22-2013, 06:11 PM   #426
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Sorry but i'm not sure you fully understood what I said, cause your still talking about co existing, when my opening statement of the post I quoted says I get that he didn't want to co exist...

Terra forming wasn't the only way to destroy all the humans. They could have gotten rid of them all, and started a New Krypton WITH their powers.
From the way I understood things in the movie the terraforming was necessary to change the compositions of the planet to make it more like Krypton. Changing the composition of Earth to make it like Krypton would have robbed them of their unique powers because it was those compositions like the atmosphere and such that contributed to them having the powers in the first place.

I could be wrong about this though.

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Old 11-22-2013, 06:12 PM   #427
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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This is a single element of characterization, conveyed to the audience that should infuse/explain all his other decisions.

It's why when I personally hear stuff like, 'why not mars, it would make alot of sense.' Yea, so would co-existing. Clearly Zod doesn't have that in him, and the characterization tells us so.

Sadly it's easier to just blame Goyer.
Zod would approve
I never quite understood that argument from fans.

Although Terraforming is theoretical science, this statement I hear from fans is complete bull. I'd like to preface this by saying, Zod himself said "The foundation has to be built on something." Implying that there are certain things that Earth has that are similar to the properties of Krypton, and as such, you can modify them to be exactly like Krypton. That being said, arguing that Zod could simply terraform Mars is erroneous for the following reasons, I pulled up NASA's speculative method regarding terraforming:

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Transforming Mars will be a long and complicated process. But this is exactly the type of subject that interests space researchers like Christopher McKay of NASA Ames Research Center. First, greenhouse gases, like chlorofluorocarbons that contribute to the growing ozone layer on Earth, will be released into the atmosphere. This traps the heat from the Sun and raises the surface temperature by an average of 4 degrees Celsius. In order to achieve this, factories would manufacture chlorofluorocarbons derived from the air and soil. A single factory would require the power equivalent of a large nuclear power plant.

The increasing temperature would vaporize some of the carbon dioxide in the south polar cap. Introducing carbon dioxide into the atmosphere would produce additional warming, melting more of the polar cap until it has been vaporized completely. This would produce an average temperature rise of 70 degrees Celsius.

With the temperature this high, ice will start melting, providing the water needed to sustain life. This water would raise the atmospheric pressure to the equivalent of some mountaintops. While this would be a survivable level, it may still require the use of an oxygen mask. The next step, which may take up to several centuries, would be to plant trees that thrive on carbon dioxide and produce oxygen.

Source: http://quest.nasa.gov/mars/background/terra2.html
The reason why I cite this is because: the implication is that Krypton and Earth are much closer in properties and as such, it's far easier and less time consuming to terraform Earth than Mars. Krypton has denser atmosphere and gravity (hence why Clark can fly on Earth compared to Krypton's environment according to Jor-El). It's environment appears to be suited for a Red Sun (aka: theory that Red Sun means a far older sun and as such, it becomes hotter for Earth and nearby planets).

That being said, Terraforming Mars means that you take a longer time to get the right atmospheric pressure, environment as Earth, and THEN more time is needed to modify these components into Krypton's stats. Or alternatively, you could bypass needing to terraform Mars into an Earth-esque planet, and it'd still take a hell of a lot more time to terraform Mars into something like Krypton because of the sheer difference in atmospheric, agricultural, and environmental conditions compared to Earth. Either way, it's taking a hell of a lot of time because 1) Mars atmosphere -or lack thereof- is not ideal to simply terraform to Krypton's, 2) it's time consuming. That being said, it's understandable why Earth is an ideal terraform candidate.

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From the way I understood things in the movie the terraforming was necessary to change the compositions of the planet to make it more like Krypton. Changing the composition of Earth to make it like Krypton would have robbed them of their unique powers because it was those compositions like the atmosphere and such that contributed to them having the powers in the first place.

I could be wrong about this though.
You're right to a certain extent. Terraforming to Krypton means you lose the less dense atmosphere that Earth has. So you lose the ability to fly or leap across tall buildings. However, since Kryptonian biology is radically different from humans, the fact that their cells can convert sunlight radiation from a Yellow sun means that they're still able to have superstrength, heat vision, and super senses.


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Old 11-22-2013, 06:19 PM   #428
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I never quite understood that argument from fans.

Although Terraforming is theoretical science, this statement I hear from fans is complete bull. I'd like to preface this by saying, Zod himself said "The foundation has to be built on something." Implying that there are certain things that Earth has that are similar to the properties of Krypton, and as such, you can modify them to be exactly like Krypton. That being said, arguing that Zod could simply terraform Mars is erroneous for the following reasons, I pulled up NASA's speculative method regarding terraforming.
I never try and add real science to my science fiction. It just destroys it all if you get my drift. However, I thought it was established when Jor was explaining to Clark about how Krypton used to colonize planets that they looked for "suitable" planets. This suggest not every planet is suitable.

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You're right to a certain extent. Terraforming to Krypton means you lose the less dense atmosphere that Earth has. So you lose the ability to fly or leap across tall buildings. However, since Kryptonian biology is radically different from humans, the fact that their cells can convert sunlight radiation from a Yellow sun means that they're still able to have superstrength, heat vision, and super senses.
Unfortunately this is something the movie failed to clearly identify. It wasn't really clear it to me what powers Supes derived from the sun and/or the atmosphere. This was not clearly explained...at least to me.


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Old 11-22-2013, 06:27 PM   #429
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I never try and add real science to my science fiction. It just destroys it all if you get my drift. However, I thought it was established when Jor was explaining to Clark about how Krypton used to colonize planets that they looked for "suitable" planets. This suggest not every planet is suitable.

Unfortunately this is something the movie failed to clearly identify. It wasn't really clear it to me what powers Supes derived from the sun and/or the atmosphere. This was not clearly explained...at least to me.
Terraforming isn't necessarily real science. It's all theory since we've yet to have the technology and the time to practice it. Though, you bring a strong point about Jor-El saying suitable planets.

I do remember Jor-El saying that atmosphere being lighter helps Superman's ability to fly, but doesn't necessarily say that it's because of the yellow sun. So that is definitely unclear. And they could've spent more time fleshing out the dialogue so one can explain Superman's power levels.

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Old 11-22-2013, 06:29 PM   #430
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Yeah, well that's the problem for me. It wasn't clearly explained at all. Which is FINE as long as they could have just accepted that, but they kept talking about how grounded in realism it was going to be, and how it was all set in a logical world.

So I went in with those expectations, and was majorly dissapointed.

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Old 11-22-2013, 06:30 PM   #431
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Terraforming isn't necessarily real science. It's all theory since we've yet to have the technology and the time to practice it. Though, you bring a strong point about Jor-El saying suitable planets.

I do remember Jor-El saying that atmosphere being lighter helps Superman's ability to fly, but doesn't necessarily say that it's because of the yellow sun. So that is definitely unclear. And they could've spent more time fleshing out the dialogue so one can explain Superman's power levels.
It was very unclear to me because when Supes was on the Black Zero it was the atmosphere that made him as weak as a human, but he was closer to the sun then he would have been on Earth. Very, very, very unclear. I just let it go instead of beat my head against a wall...lol. If there is a complaint to be made I'll stand behind that one because that didn't make a lick of sense.

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Yeah, well that's the problem for me. It wasn't clearly explained at all. Which is FINE as long as they could have just accepted that, but they kept talking about how grounded in realism it was going to be, and how it was all set in a logical world.

So I went in with those expectations, and was majorly dissapointed.

I understand where you are coming from. A few of my friends feel the same.

For me...I never really expected a movie grounded in realism where the dude flies around and shoots laser beams out of his eyes. There's no real way to explain any of that anyway, so I just went with it when needed.


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Old 11-22-2013, 06:35 PM   #432
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I meant risk after they'd won.

As in once they'd won and terraformed and the whole earth was theirs, what was to stop them all catching a disease and dying before they managed to re populate? Or a natural disaster occuring, or anything like that.

They could have killed all the humans, and still kept their powers, and it would have been a heck of a lot easier to rebuild their new Krypton on earth.
That superpowered Krypton would not be the Krypton he was sworn to protect.

As for the rest of those risks, well, that's just life.

There is also an emotional element to all of this. Zod wants what he can truly never have. He wants Krypton the way it was.

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Old 11-22-2013, 06:35 PM   #433
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I understand where you are coming from. A few of my friends feel the same.

For me...I never really expected a movie grounded in realism where the dude flies around and shoots laser beams out of his eyes. There's no real way to explain any of that anyway, so I just went with it when needed.
It's not about explaining the science of super powers for me.

I just wanna understand why characters make the decisions they do, and not feel like the characters are acting in a way that suits the plot, rather than in a way that is logical and realistic.

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Old 11-22-2013, 06:39 PM   #434
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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It's not about explaining the science of super powers for me.

I just wanna understand why characters make the decisions they do, and not feel like the characters are acting in a way that suits the plot, rather than in a way that is logical and realistic.
I think I understand what you are saying, but I don't think Zod's actions were illogical if you factor in his complete fanaticism to rebuild Krypton. To him that was the goal and he was willing to do anything to make that happen, even if it went against what would be normal logic. I think that's why I'm not understanding where you are coming from.

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Old 11-22-2013, 06:50 PM   #435
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I don't think atmosphere is really related to powers.
When Superman is on the Black Zero, his powers are still there but the kryptonian atmosphere poisons him, so he can't use them. The kryptonian woman who punch the capsule Lois uses to escape proves that every kryptonians near the sun are superpowered.
It's just a question of atmosphere. When Zod is on Earth, he needs his helmet to protect him from it and to be able to use his powers.

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Old 11-22-2013, 06:54 PM   #436
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Meh...I don't want to debate the logic of the atmosphere and the sun. If he was still super powered then how that guy stick in a needle in his skin? I can't...no I can't....it hurts my brain too much.

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Old 11-22-2013, 07:00 PM   #437
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Meh...I don't want to debate the logic of the atmosphere and the sun. If he was still super powered then how that guy stick in a needle in his skin? I can't...no I can't....it hurts my brain too much.
I didn't thought of that... I was satisfied with my theory, it was all right... until now.

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Old 11-22-2013, 07:02 PM   #438
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I didn't thought of that... I was satisfied with my theory, it was all right... until now.
Let it go, my friend...just let it go...

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Old 11-22-2013, 07:07 PM   #439
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Sun gives him and his ilk some base powers
Earth atmosphere gives him and his ilk things like sensory powers(see faora losing mask).

Poison kryptonite rich atmosphere(such as you would find on krypton) stop his earth acclimated body to stop metabolizing solar energy efficiently.

Not sure what kryptonite atmosphere does to people used to kryptonite.

That's how I saw it anyways. But it's not tied down and I think that gives them the proper leeway moving forward into a sequel that will no doubt focus on a super weakness. I have little doubt kryptonite as we know it will be synthetic.

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Old 11-22-2013, 07:20 PM   #440
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Sun gives him and his ilk some base powers
Earth atmosphere gives him and his ilk things like sensory powers(see faora losing mask).

Poison kryptonite rich atmosphere(such as you would find on krypton) stop his earth acclimated body to stop metabolizing solar energy efficiently.

Not sure what kryptonite atmosphere does to people used to kryptonite.

That's how I saw it anyways. But it's not tied down and I think that gives them the proper leeway moving forward into a sequel that will no doubt focus on a super weakness. I have little doubt kryptonite as we know it will be synthetic.
My brain is going to explode.

I think what got me was Zod easily overcame the earth's atmosphere, which judging by what Krypton's air did to Supes should have put him into a complete sensory overload for while. It should have taken him years to gain that kind of control. The air on the BZ affected Supes right away, so I couldn't possibly buy Zod overcoming his deficit so easily. That was too damn convenient even for me...lol

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Old 11-22-2013, 07:26 PM   #441
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I thought that maybe Clark would've used some Kryptonian glass or material which had some cloaking properties to fashion his glasses from. If they had shown Jor-El using something similar that altered his appearance at the start of the movie when he was running from the other Kryptonians, it could've been used to explain how Clark could actually look slightly different or it doesn't allow others to see him as he truly is.

That way it wouldn't be the glasses frame that actually hides his face as such, but that it creates an illusion instead so that others can't see the true face of Kal-El when he wears it.

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Old 11-22-2013, 07:49 PM   #442
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I'd prefer they spend as little time as possible on the disguise. Explaining the disguise is just an appeal to pedantic fans who will never be happy. I'd rather they just assume it was part of the story.

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Old 11-22-2013, 07:58 PM   #443
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Its difficult to pull it off, but maybe clark can be on the fiield mostly and not interact with the staff of the planet very much. Maybe make perry white aware of his identity so he gets the free pass.

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Old 11-22-2013, 08:00 PM   #444
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Its difficult to pull it off, but maybe clark can be on the fiield mostly and not interact with the staff of the planet very much. Maybe make perry white aware of his identity so he gets the free pass.
The best newspaper in the world never interacts with the most interesting story in human history -- the discovery of alien life -- even though he operates out of their home base of Metropolis?

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Old 11-22-2013, 08:23 PM   #445
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I think Goyer usully works best when involved with Nolan, outside that he has many problems, The Man of Steal, while the Nolan brothers were involved, was kind of weak when it comes to plot.

I actually feel the opposite but I know I'm in the minority. Compared to TDK, MOS has practically no plot problems IMO.

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Old 11-22-2013, 08:27 PM   #446
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I don't think atmosphere is really related to powers.
When Superman is on the Black Zero, his powers are still there but the kryptonian atmosphere poisons him, so he can't use them. The kryptonian woman who punch the capsule Lois uses to escape proves that every kryptonians near the sun are superpowered.
It's just a question of atmosphere. When Zod is on Earth, he needs his helmet to protect him from it and to be able to use his powers.
But there are a couple of things that don't make sense with your analysis. If it was truly the atmosphere that gave him powers, then why is it that Kryptonians using the helmet still had super strength, speed, and the ability to leap atop tall buildings? Therefore, the senses are not part of the atmospheric powers (in fact, flight is the only superpower that utilizes atmosphere + gravitational manipulation), but rather these are yellow sun powers. Thus, we have reason to assume that the helmet is protecting the brain/head from absorbing yellow sunlight, otherwise you suffer from sensory overload. This is further seen when you look at a young Clark. He is not used to Kryptonian atmosphere yet he still suffers from sensory overload. So it's definitely not a matter of atmosphere.

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Old 11-22-2013, 08:51 PM   #447
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

So the kryptonian battlesuit argument hasn't come up yet? Nice.

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Old 11-22-2013, 08:58 PM   #448
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So it's definitely not a matter of atmosphere.
That's what I was saying. The atmosphere is NOT related to powers. The atmosphere doesn't give you power, but it can prevent you to use them if you're not used to it.
This way, Superman on the BZ gets sick and vulnerable, and it's the same situation for Faora when she loses her helmet on Earth. Their power are there, but the atmosphere poisoned them so they can't use their powers.
Actually, when Zod overcame Earth's atmosphere at the end of the film, it was, for me, as surprising as if Superman was capable to overcoming kryptonite.

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:07 PM   #449
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That's what I was saying. The atmosphere is NOT related to powers. The atmosphere doesn't give you power, but it can prevent you to use them if you're not used to it.
This way, Superman on the BZ gets sick and vulnerable, and it's the same situation for Faora when she loses her helmet on Earth. Their power are there, but the atmosphere poisoned them so they can't use their powers.
Actually, when Zod overcame Earth's atmosphere at the end of the film, it was, for me, as surprising as if Superman was capable to overcoming kryptonite.
Ah, my mistake. Now I understand what you mean. This makes total sense.

I wonder how Superman can adapt to it. Unless his biology changes to a point where he can use powers despite being in Kryptonian atmosphere.

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:12 PM   #450
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Ah, my mistake. Now I understand what you mean. This makes total sense.

I wonder how Superman can adapt to it. Unless his biology changes to a point where he can use powers despite being in Kryptonian atmosphere.
Well, we know he was able to adapt as a child, given that he had not evolved in this environment.
Given that he's stronger as an adult, as well as having developed from his yellow sun exposure, that he was able to recover from the atmosphere far more quickly than it took him to initially adapt.

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