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Old 09-18-2014, 03:43 PM   #726
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Somebody on another forum reckons that Ultron's final form is almost identical to the ones we saw in set photos... I'd say they're only semi-reliable though

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Old 09-18-2014, 03:59 PM   #727
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

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Originally Posted by Keyser Soze View Post
Having a Tony Stark revive a dormant Ultron created by Pym would be a great way of keeping everyone happy. It makes it Tony Stark's story and his struggle as he deals with the repercussions of his hubris, which makes sense given Stark's role within the MCU, but also gives Pym his place as Ultron's creator to keep things in line with comics canon.
Also, it would also be totally out of the blue.

Whedon established a dormant peacekeeping program in Avengers. He called it "Phase II" and made sure it was the only thing saved from SHIELD HQ.

All the things we've heard about Pym not being involved were still said. The idea that the dormant program is Ultron is a popular fan theory, but from what we know, that's all it is.

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Old 09-18-2014, 05:58 PM   #728
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Anyway you slice it, its a father and son story.
Howard/Tony
Tony/Ultron.

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Old 09-20-2014, 12:31 PM   #729
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

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Also, it would also be totally out of the blue.

Whedon established a dormant peacekeeping program in Avengers. He called it "Phase II" and made sure it was the only thing saved from SHIELD HQ.

All the things we've heard about Pym not being involved were still said. The idea that the dormant program is Ultron is a popular fan theory, but from what we know, that's all it is.
Idk. I think you're taking their words at face value. Pym won't be in AoU.

In regards to this film, as Whedon said "Pym isn't in the mix", still would be the case.

If Pym is involved in the way all of us seem to think he is, and as I've been saying for over a year, he doesn't have to be in this film. He doesn't have to be involved in Ultron's "origin".

A year in advance they aren't going to just tell us point blank Ultron's story.

The official synposis clearly suggests that this dormant peace keeping project one way or another becomes Ultron. Likely that Howard Stark and Hank Pym worked on this project together in the past before abandoning it? Sure.
Doesn't contradict anything said at all.
In regards to the movie, he said Pym "isn't in the mix". He's not. Given this synopsis, the fact that wright is gone, and the fact that Ant-man got moved closer to AoU, it's seems more and more likely.

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Old 09-20-2014, 12:46 PM   #730
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

What if.... Ultron is Tony Stark's creation?

*gasps, drops glass, baby crying*

Seriously, "Pym isn't in the mix" means just that. He isn't involved with the movie at all, which means he won't have anything to do with Ultron either.

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Old 09-20-2014, 04:20 PM   #731
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

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Originally Posted by OriginalMiles View Post
What if.... Ultron is Tony Stark's creation?

*gasps, drops glass, baby crying*

Seriously, "Pym isn't in the mix" means just that. He isn't involved with the movie at all, which means he won't have anything to do with Ultron either.
Why would Tony jump starting a dormant peace keeping project be in the synopsis if it didn't become Ultron? Howard Stark is going to be in Ant-man.

Ultron starts as SOMETHING that had already been atleast partially created. Totally reasonable to assume we find out more about this project in Antman. Maybe not, but it seems likely that Stark doesn't create Ultron from scratch. To each their own, but we'll see in a year. Pym isn't in the mix... You don't know how much of the dormant project we will find about in this movie

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Old 09-21-2014, 10:49 AM   #732
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

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Idk. I think you're taking their words at face value. Pym won't be in AoU.

In regards to this film, as Whedon said "Pym isn't in the mix", still would be the case.

If Pym is involved in the way all of us seem to think he is, and as I've been saying for over a year, he doesn't have to be in this film. He doesn't have to be involved in Ultron's "origin".

A year in advance they aren't going to just tell us point blank Ultron's story.

The official synposis clearly suggests that this dormant peace keeping project one way or another becomes Ultron. Likely that Howard Stark and Hank Pym worked on this project together in the past before abandoning it? Sure.
Doesn't contradict anything said at all.
In regards to the movie, he said Pym "isn't in the mix". He's not. Given this synopsis, the fact that wright is gone, and the fact that Ant-man got moved closer to AoU, it's seems more and more likely.
Yes, yes I am. It allows me not to contradict myself. Because with you not taking things at face value, you end up with a long explanation about how "Pym is in the mix, but we just don't know it." Even though Whedon, who would know, says Pym is not in the mix.

Wright leaving and the date moving sounds totally random and irrelevant, why do you think that matters at all, much is evidence of your position?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalMiles View Post
What if.... Ultron is Tony Stark's creation?

*gasps, drops glass, baby crying*

Seriously, "Pym isn't in the mix" means just that. He isn't involved with the movie at all, which means he won't have anything to do with Ultron either.
It is our duty as fans to come up with fan theories on how Pym creates Ultron and not Tony Stark, regardless of what Whedon and Feige say. Get with the program!

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Originally Posted by jaqua99 View Post
Why would Tony jump starting a dormant peace keeping project be in the synopsis if it didn't become Ultron? Howard Stark is going to be in Ant-man.

Ultron starts as SOMETHING that had already been atleast partially created. Totally reasonable to assume we find out more about this project in Antman. Maybe not, but it seems likely that Stark doesn't create Ultron from scratch. To each their own, but we'll see in a year. Pym isn't in the mix... You don't know how much of the dormant project we will find about in this movie
Can I suggest you take a different tack. Let's pretend we live in a world where Joss Whedon wanted to do Ultron for Avengers 2 even before he took the job for Avengers 1. Let's pretend he decided to set up for Ultron in Avengers 1. Given that, let's ask a few qustions:

Is there a dormant peacekeeping program in Avengers 1?
Yes, Phase II.
Does Tony Stark know about Phase II?
Yes, he downloaded all the plans and confronted Fury with them.
Does Tony Stark have a reason to jumpstart Phase II?
Rumor has it that the number of threats will be too many for the Avengers to handle, and they'll need to automate world security.
What would Tony Stark need to jumpstart Phase II?
He would need two things. He would need tesseract-like power sources for the Zola-made robots, and some kind of computer program to control them.
Does Tony Stark have tesseract-like power sources?
Yes, the new element that powers Tony's suit is based on his father's study of the tesseract. This is why the staff, powered by the same energy, could not take control of him by touching his chest.
Is there any reason Tony Stark would come up with a single AI to control a bunch of robots?
Yes, this is precisely what he did in Iron Man 3 with the Iron Legion and the House Party Protocol, and it worked very well.
Is Phase II important?
Yes, it is the only thing Fury saved from SHIELD HQ, and it is the first thing the World Security Council asked about getting started to combat the alien problem.
When does it sound like "Phase II" is planned to pay off?
Phase II sounds like something that would come into play during Phase 2, which ends with Avengers AoU
Are there any other dormant peacekeeping programs in the MCU?
Not that we know of.
If Tony Stark creates Ultron to jumpstart Phase II, does this conflict with the given synopsis?
No.
Does it conflict with anything that Whedon or Feige have said about Pym not being in the mix, about Ultron coming more from the Avengers we know about, or the direct implication that Tony Stark creates the Ultron AI.
No.
Is there a better theory that Ultron is created to jumpstart Phase II?
You decide.

I honestly feel bad for spoiling the movie by putting the dormant peackeeping program from Avengers 1 together with the dormant peacekeeping program from Avengers 2. They probably thought some of you guys would be surprised to see it come back.

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Old 09-21-2014, 08:08 PM   #733
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Why would he create an AI to control robots when he has an AI in Jarvis? Everything you are arguing against here are NOT things I believe lol Perhaps my point hasn't gotten across well due to poor wording.

It's painfully obvious that Tony is responsible.

I am well aware of that phase 2 project. We know nothing of it's nature. It may be an early type of AI, or not. And I assume that's what is, or will become Ultron.

You're putting words in my mouth based on the Pym vs Stark argument. I do not disagree with most of what you said, that is not the case.

All I am saying is that Phase 2, or whatever this dormant peace keeping project is (likely phase 2...i NEVER said it wasn't) very well could be an early attempt at an AI, or something of the sort as a project worked on in the past by howard stark, and a collegue. Stark gets a hold of it, tries to use it and mix his ideas with it...the results of his tampering, and work? Ultron.

That's it. Stark's responsibility completely. I NEVER said Stark isn't responsible for Ultron.

Just on a side note, I assume that you think my opinion is because of a desire that Pym has something to do with Ultron, given your argument and your comments against mine. There is no need to be sarcastic, or condescending(that last comment of yours) especially when what you are arguing against is not what I believe, nor what I have stated I believe.
.
Let me make this clear. Yes. I have a bias, but it has NOTHING to do with Pym. at all. And has EVERYTHING to do with time impact. I never said ANYTHING about phase 2 not becoming Ultron..I never said anything about phase 2 period lol.

Essentially, I am HOPING Ultron is something that has been around for a long time, and isn't simply entered completely in modern day. I think it would give him a larger presence Tying him to the past in some way. Be it Pym, Howard Stark, or even freakin Nick Fury. I don't care.
But we will just have to agree to disagree. Not worth arguing over, especially when my opinion of it isn't getting across at all. My fault.

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Old 09-21-2014, 08:44 PM   #734
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Damn the sarcasm and condescension in this thread is thick. Keep it civil guys and cut out the generalizing or fanboy insults. We're fans of these characters, the films and the studio. Respect each others opinions, we all have them and they can't all be the same and just because you have one doesn't mean you are more right than the next guy.

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Old 09-21-2014, 08:57 PM   #735
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Well, I definitely wasn't thinking in condescending terms and I wasn't being sarcastic (except for with OriginalMiles). I honestly think they don't expect fans to remember Phase II. And I just don't see how your argument is well supported, even if my reading of your intention was incorrect, and it was, that doesn't mean the questions don't still undermine what you say is evidence. And under a similar error on your part, my argument is not about Stark's responsibility, but about his creative ownership. He is the idea man here, this is not a hand me down villain like Vanko. It is the Avengers who enslaved Ultron and thus angered him, not some long dead supporting characters who are equally more deserving of his hatred.

And we do know exactly what Phase II is... it's a bunch of old HYDRA robots. We know that because it's something that you move out in crates, which they then opened and showed to us, physically and digitally. If it was an AI to any degree, moving it and finding it would look and sound a lot different.

Ultron, as a complement/solution to Phase II, is tied in with the past. He is created, by Tony Stark, to do the thing that Howard/Zola/Pym wanted Phase II to do way back when, but they couldn't do it, so they had to shut it down. That's as tied to the past as Tony Stark is. The only person more tied to the past is Steve Rogers. Honest question: Do you consider Loki tied to the past? He's tied to the past of Asgard of course and appeared in Thor's film, was that sufficient time impact for your tastes?

As for why make a brand new AI, that's a toughie. Same question could be asked if Phase II was an AI instead of a bunch of robots... why not use the AI that's proven it can run an Iron Legion instead of the AI that failed to run the robots seen in Avengers 1? The only answer must be that Tony Stark figures out how to do even better than JARVIS, and creates an AI that is superior, and thus better fitted to handle the House Party Protocoling duties. It's also possible they do some hardware compatibility mess, but that's a bit weak narratively... I expect better.

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Old 09-21-2014, 11:16 PM   #736
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Okay Dr. Cosmic, this is probably going to be a hard read, so bare with me..this is how I think lol.

Loki. Yes, sort of. It literally is more "personal" for me. Aside from the fact that he has ties to earth and Asgard from Myth as you said..we got a little more Loki history before his appearance in Avengers. You know what I mean? The after credit scene in Thor 1. Suggests the events of Thor 1 ultimately sort of lead to Avengers. Loki had a past presence within the MCU timeline, and he appeared in another film, so I suppose he had some time to.."sit"? For lack of a better term. Not to mention the McGuffin of Avengers film ties to something much bigger, something easily assumed "ancient", and that McGuffin was Loki's goal.. Essentially, in regards to him making his "Avengers villain" debut, he was already an established character with some backround in both story telling, and within the reality of the MCU timeline.

He didn't suddenly just come to earth in A1. It's how I look at things. You may not see Loki having the "past" or "presence" that I do, as I understand it's taste.

Now bare with me..Yes, Ultron hasn't been in any films, which is why I hope they tie him some way to MCU Earth's past..make him a sort of culmination of the problems within the MCU world that was decades in the making, opposed to simply being created by Stark from total scratch.

If Ultron was something that was around for a bit, and that gets acknowledged in AoU, along with the projects impact...I could go back and watch CA1, and whatever else that phase 2 project is tied to and say, "hey, that thing was around during this time" or "oh this lead to that" etc. So while he wasn't in any previous films, I could still make connections that he has to the past, and in my mind that will give the character a larger, more impactful presence. Making him a sort of culmination of earth events, and quite frankly, a sort of symbol of what the world is doing to itself.

For me, as a result of SHIELD, and Hydra...if it was something that has been around, he could sort of be personal for essentially every major player within the MCU. Not just a product of Stark...but a "time bomb"...a symbol of the world's current state, that Stark brings into the world. Stark feels responsible, and it's personal to him, but it also makes it personal to everyone else who has been involved with SHIELD...and Hydra likely, since HYDRA infiltrated SHIELD. To me, something like that spells Apocalypse in a much more deep, darker way than having Stark provide a new AI for a peace keeping project. I just think it can be so much more massive, and it would truly fit the name of the film Age of Ultron.

I appologize for the legibility of this post, and my other long ones. I am an overthinker and it can sometimes make my points difficult to understand cause I think in layers, and connections.

and as for your reasoning for a new AI, better than Jarvis..I mean, idk. Jarvis has been pretty damn good to Tony. To me, him suddenly putting faith in a new AI, and abandoning one he obviously has a relationship with for the sake of bringing Ultron into the world, from a story telling point, that seems weak to me. There are other things to do.

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Old 09-22-2014, 08:32 AM   #737
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I can see how that's weak, but it's equally weak to abandon Jarvis to update a failed AI. Any explanation that works for one works for the other as well. No matter what Ultron is or isn't, Jarvis is proven and Ultron is either non existent or disproven.

I see where you're coming from, and I would agree that connectivity is very important. Even though I believe Ultron will be invented in AoU, I think he'll be very connected. Ultron will still be Phase II, but he will be Tony's version of Phase II and not SHIELD's original version. So he'll have all that connectivity to Tony and SHIELD. I think that Cap due to his experiences with Phase II when it was HYDRA and Zola's Alogrithm will have some very strict mandates about what Ultron can and cannot do. Widow might even give Stark the Zola Algorithm so that Ultron can predict threats before they happen. I personally think Loki's spear will have to do with his strings being cut, tying him to Thor and Thanos. I think he'll be very well connected but his strongest connections will be to the current Avengers and not to old time SHIELD.

No need to apologize, and thank you for pointing out that I was unfairly reading into your posts. They are not difficult to understand once that bias is gone.

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Old 09-22-2014, 09:00 AM   #738
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What Spader says early on seems to go against the synopsis a little, but perhaps the 'dormant peacekeeping program' is just an idea and Stark tries to start it rather than carry it on

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Old 09-22-2014, 12:27 PM   #739
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

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I can see how that's weak, but it's equally weak to abandon Jarvis to update a failed AI. Any explanation that works for one works for the other as well. No matter what Ultron is or isn't, Jarvis is proven and Ultron is either non existent or disproven.

I see where you're coming from, and I would agree that connectivity is very important. Even though I believe Ultron will be invented in AoU, I think he'll be very connected. Ultron will still be Phase II, but he will be Tony's version of Phase II and not SHIELD's original version. So he'll have all that connectivity to Tony and SHIELD. I think that Cap due to his experiences with Phase II when it was HYDRA and Zola's Alogrithm will have some very strict mandates about what Ultron can and cannot do. Widow might even give Stark the Zola Algorithm so that Ultron can predict threats before they happen. I personally think Loki's spear will have to do with his strings being cut, tying him to Thor and Thanos. I think he'll be very well connected but his strongest connections will be to the current Avengers and not to old time SHIELD.

No need to apologize, and thank you for pointing out that I was unfairly reading into your posts. They are not difficult to understand once that bias is gone.

Perhaps..just perhaps....

Tony uploads the algorithm into Jarvis, which leads to some sort of corruption

And maybe Ultron creates Vision unwillingly, as a part of Jarvis resists and breaks free


Probably unlikely though, as the Algorithm idientifies potential threats, whereas I think Ultron is just a response team (what the Avengers are, but they need a break)

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Old 09-22-2014, 01:37 PM   #740
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

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I can see how that's weak, but it's equally weak to abandon Jarvis to update a failed AI. Any explanation that works for one works for the other as well. No matter what Ultron is or isn't, Jarvis is proven and Ultron is either non existent or disproven.

I see where you're coming from, and I would agree that connectivity is very important. Even though I believe Ultron will be invented in AoU, I think he'll be very connected. Ultron will still be Phase II, but he will be Tony's version of Phase II and not SHIELD's original version. So he'll have all that connectivity to Tony and SHIELD. I think that Cap due to his experiences with Phase II when it was HYDRA and Zola's Alogrithm will have some very strict mandates about what Ultron can and cannot do. Widow might even give Stark the Zola Algorithm so that Ultron can predict threats before they happen. I personally think Loki's spear will have to do with his strings being cut, tying him to Thor and Thanos. I think he'll be very well connected but his strongest connections will be to the current Avengers and not to old time SHIELD.

No need to apologize, and thank you for pointing out that I was unfairly reading into your posts. They are not difficult to understand once that bias is gone.
I thought Phase 2 was the nuke that Tony stopped in Avengers?

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Old 09-22-2014, 01:49 PM   #741
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

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I thought Phase 2 was the nuke that Tony stopped in Avengers?
It was turning the tesseract into weapons, much like Hydra in Cap 1

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