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Old 01-09-2017, 05:10 PM   #101
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Default Re: Tyler Hoechlin IS Superman - Part 2

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But just think how screwed Barry and Ollie would have been to have to have dealt with mind controlled Superman and MM too, instead of just Supergirl.
Supergirl took out Kid Flash in 2 seconds and Flash's energy bursts were totally ineffective against her. Now imagine all three ganging up on Barry.
That's true, but who is to say they also would have been mind controlled? They may have been able to help Barry and Oliver.


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Why was that weird? Barry didn't know Clark, and besides, it was even ridiculous that they didn't just let Kara go do her thing.....she could have taken care of it alone without Superman, so why have him there making the situation already weird by the simple fact that she could destroy them all by herself....even weirder with 2 tht
at could do it
Barry didn't, but Kara did, with a world threatening event going on, you think she would bring her cousin along, or at least MM. Maybe budget was a factor. But oh well, I guess they can be used in the next one.

I agree though Kara should have gotten more to do in the crossover.

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Old 01-09-2017, 05:19 PM   #102
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Default Re: Tyler Hoechlin IS Superman - Part 2

Supergirl crossing over with Arrow and Flash was a big deal and very special, but Superman is by far the most popular character this Berlantiverse has access to. They are right to save Superman for a crossover in the future, once the novelty of Barry, Oliver and Kara interacting wears off. Kara was shoehorned into the crossover as well. They did not originally plan for her to be in it, which is obvious when you see how they kept trying to keep her away from the threats the team faced like the government agents. When they have Superman in a crossover, it should be one that is planned properly and with him in mind, and not just a crossover with him shoehorned in for ratings. Superman is by far the biggest character this universe has. Only Batman or Joker showing up would be comparable. When they have Superman feature in a crossover, it should be one where they planned from the beginning to include him and where he will play a big part. It is a shame Kara did not get that and was just shoehorned in for ratings, but I can understand why they did that. It was not as much potential wasted as it would have been with Superman.

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Old 01-09-2017, 05:54 PM   #103
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Default Re: Tyler Hoechlin IS Superman - Part 2

Whatever threat they face, it is going to have to be huge if you are going to include Superman, when you already have a character in your gallery of superheroes that can do all he does. It has to be a HUGE THREAT, and I'm sorry, but I don't see TV being able to pull off anything near what is needed for that....hell the crossover as it was, IMO, was pretty lame in the fact that they had a threat that Kara could have taken care of on her own....the whole slowing down the space ship thing so that they could include LoT characters was ridiculous, Kara could have taken that thing into space and before she got too far, threw the damn thing the rest of the way....HOWEVER, I liked the whole water thing....but the whole writing of the crossover was totally written in places to make Kara absolutely useless, when we go good and well that she would have taken care of it in a second. To bring in Superman????? no way they have the capability of doing that right....sorry, but they have not proven to me yet in either crossover where Supergirl was a part of it that they have any idea how to use her. Hasn't been proven to me....

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Old 01-09-2017, 05:57 PM   #104
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I don't think they originally planned to use Kara in the crossover. It seems to me that she was shoehorned in for ratings. If they planned for her to be in it from the beginning, I am sure they could have found more threats for her to have kept her busy, rather than trying to keep her away all the time.

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Old 01-09-2017, 06:01 PM   #105
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Default Re: Tyler Hoechlin IS Superman - Part 2

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I don't think they originally planned to use Kara in the crossover. It seems to me that she was shoehorned in for ratings. If they planned for her to be in it from the beginning, I am sure they could have found more threats for her to have kept her busy, rather than trying to keep her away all the time.
According to Twitter, the writers and producers started writing the script for the crossover, KNOWING that Supergirl was already coming to the CW, knowing when the filming was, and who would be available for the crossover. It wasn't a last minute thing......they did not know how to NOT weaken the other heroes and use Kara....it was obvious. So what do they do, they weaken the one that could have handled the entire situation on her own, and IMO, it came out ridiculous. Just my opinion, but that is how I saw it.... and add in the bad timing of the crossover being a part of Arrow's 100th episode....IMO, that was what was thrown together last minute, and it showed.

And then to promote it like, Supergirl was the one character that would be in all of the episodes as the thread, was totally bogus, along with the fact that it was promoted as a 4 night crossover when it most definitely was not.

So, all around, I was pretty meh with the crossover....

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Old 01-09-2017, 06:25 PM   #106
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According to Twitter, the writers and producers started writing the script for the crossover, KNOWING that Supergirl was already coming to the CW, knowing when the filming was, and who would be available for the crossover. It wasn't a last minute thing......they did not know how to NOT weaken the other heroes and use Kara....it was obvious. So what do they do, they weaken the one that could have handled the entire situation on her own, and IMO, it came out ridiculous. Just my opinion, but that is how I saw it.... and add in the bad timing of the crossover being a part of Arrow's 100th episode....IMO, that was what was thrown together last minute, and it showed.

And then to promote it like, Supergirl was the one character that would be in all of the episodes as the thread, was totally bogus, along with the fact that it was promoted as a 4 night crossover when it most definitely was not.

So, all around, I was pretty meh with the crossover....
I didn't know that they always had plans for Supergirl, so thank you for telling me that. The way things played out, it seemed to me that she was shoehorned in late on, but I guess it was just down to them doing a bad job with her. I didn't think much of the crossover either. Episodes were rushed with them trying to fit too much in, both regarding the main invasion storyline and other issues not related to it. It would have been better if they had a two hour TV movie instead IMO, with them just focusing on the invasion storyline and not with the characters (mainly the side-characters) dealing with things separate to that.

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Old 01-09-2017, 08:45 PM   #107
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Default Re: Tyler Hoechlin IS Superman - Part 2

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According to Twitter, the writers and producers started writing the script for the crossover, KNOWING that Supergirl was already coming to the CW, knowing when the filming was, and who would be available for the crossover. It wasn't a last minute thing......they did not know how to NOT weaken the other heroes and use Kara....it was obvious. So what do they do, they weaken the one that could have handled the entire situation on her own, and IMO, it came out ridiculous. Just my opinion, but that is how I saw it.... and add in the bad timing of the crossover being a part of Arrow's 100th episode....IMO, that was what was thrown together last minute, and it showed.

And then to promote it like, Supergirl was the one character that would be in all of the episodes as the thread, was totally bogus, along with the fact that it was promoted as a 4 night crossover when it most definitely was not.

So, all around, I was pretty meh with the crossover....
The crossover may have been a ratings success, but it was a dud creatively especially in the use of Supergirl. I think that's why they're bringing back the Dominators to make up for the misuse of Supergirl in the crossover. They now have plenty of time to plan the next mega-crossover if it were to happen again.

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Old 01-09-2017, 09:16 PM   #108
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Default Re: Tyler Hoechlin IS Superman - Part 2

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The crossover may have been a ratings success, but it was a dud creatively especially in the use of Supergirl. I think that's why they're bringing back the Dominators to make up for the misuse of Supergirl in the crossover. They now have plenty of time to plan the next mega-crossover if it were to happen again.
They have said it will be an annual thing around the same time....but I really wish they would let one of the regular writers from each show write the crossover and the showrunners stay out of the writers room.

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Old 01-10-2017, 02:16 AM   #109
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Default Re: Tyler Hoechlin IS Superman - Part 2

To have Superman crossover without the Flash, Arrow or Legends the threat doesn't have to be huge there just has to be a storyline for how and why he ends up crossing over.

If people are talking about him been involved in a big crossover with all the shows doing a 3 or 4 episode arc then I you do Mongul and War World. They could definitely pull that off on a CW budget.

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Old 01-10-2017, 06:54 AM   #110
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Default Re: Tyler Hoechlin IS Superman - Part 2

Hmmmm.... I'm good with 3 maybe 4 episodes with him each season. Hoping he gets 1 or 2 more episodes in the 2nd half. Other than that, I don't see the need.

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Old 01-10-2017, 07:04 AM   #111
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Old 01-10-2017, 12:01 PM   #112
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*cough* If anything, they kind of nerfed the other heroes so they could make Kara look better. Note that in the training sequence, they specifically excluded every single person who could conceivably challenge her: Flash, Firestorm, Steel, Vixen. All were conveniently otherwise occupied.

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Old 01-10-2017, 12:10 PM   #113
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Default Re: Tyler Hoechlin IS Superman - Part 2

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*cough* If anything, they kind of nerfed the other heroes so they could make Kara look better. Note that in the training sequence, they specifically excluded every single person who could conceivably challenge her: Flash, Firestorm, Steel, Vixen. All were conveniently otherwise occupied.
I am sure Oliver has a mech-suit and kryptonite stowed away somewhere too, yet they didn't have him use them so they could make Kara look good .

In all seriousness, I think they excluded those guys because they were not in as much need of preparation for fighting an alien threat as the people you mentioned were. The likes of Oliver, Sara and Thea etc were in much greater of need of the experience of going up against an alien IMO, without the assistance of metahuman allies.

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Old 01-10-2017, 12:32 PM   #114
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Default Re: Tyler Hoechlin IS Superman - Part 2

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To have Superman crossover without the Flash, Arrow or Legends the threat doesn't have to be huge there just has to be a storyline for how and why he ends up crossing over.

If people are talking about him been involved in a big crossover with all the shows doing a 3 or 4 episode arc then I you do Mongul and War World. They could definitely pull that off on a CW budget.
I think for invasion storylines sheer numbers could just mean Superman is heavily occupied. But they even screwed that up Supergirl in the crossover. In the big battle she just flew around using heat vision only, when she can do so much more.

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Old 01-10-2017, 01:14 PM   #115
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Default Re: Tyler Hoechlin IS Superman - Part 2

Okay, given that this is a crossover and not a Supergirl-focused event, what do you all propose that Supergirl do during such a crossover that doesn't lessen or make you question the effectiveness of the other characters? Same with Superman. Similar to Vision in Civil War, if you go gung-ho and use your most powerful character, the threat itself is effectively pointless and you wonder what the point is of the other characters when Supergirl, or Barry with his speed, could solve it in seconds.

Now that's not the fault of Supergirl, but you're not gonna get some scenario where Supergirl can solve the entire problem or issue in seconds. Unless it's speed-related, then she or Barry have that covered. There's no drama or tension when you put the most powerful character front and center and have them beat the villains by as little as blinking at them after going through the build-up of bringing the various teams and characters together. You want Supergirl to get her moment to shine- I get that. But her being from another world, her power set isn't going to be used as effectively as some would want compared to her own world. Look at World's Finest or when Superman showed up. Just because Barry is faster or Clark is more recognizable doesn't mean they eclipsed Kara on her own show.

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Old 01-10-2017, 04:02 PM   #116
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Okay, given that this is a crossover and not a Supergirl-focused event, what do you all propose that Supergirl do during such a crossover that doesn't lessen or make you question the effectiveness of the other characters? Same with Superman. Similar to Vision in Civil War, if you go gung-ho and use your most powerful character, the threat itself is effectively pointless and you wonder what the point is of the other characters when Supergirl, or Barry with his speed, could solve it in seconds.

Now that's not the fault of Supergirl, but you're not gonna get some scenario where Supergirl can solve the entire problem or issue in seconds. Unless it's speed-related, then she or Barry have that covered. There's no drama or tension when you put the most powerful character front and center and have them beat the villains by as little as blinking at them after going through the build-up of bringing the various teams and characters together. You want Supergirl to get her moment to shine- I get that. But her being from another world, her power set isn't going to be used as effectively as some would want compared to her own world. Look at World's Finest or when Superman showed up. Just because Barry is faster or Clark is more recognizable doesn't mean they eclipsed Kara on her own show.

1. I don't think anyone is simply saying that the threat has to equal, the use of Supergirl AND the others. The threat of the Dominators, as they were written, was not even an equal to that power.

2. Again, I'm not sure that anyone as of late has said anything about Kara being overshadowed either during the crossover last season or Supergirl this season, in fact, not just me, but others have said that it wasn't a problem at all, Melissa (Kara) is more than able to hold her own on screen with Barry (Grant) or Clark (Tyler).

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Old 01-11-2017, 03:03 AM   #117
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I would love to see a 6 or a max of 8 episode superman mini series (if they were to ever make one) with a lean, concise storyline but in reality if CW do get a crack at superman it would a 20 + episode season with tons of fillers and some ridicules love plot that all the Berlanti shows seem to suffer from and to that I say no thank you! I'm more than happy to see tyler's superman in a 2 episode arc at the beginning and maybe the end of the season.

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Old 01-11-2017, 07:06 AM   #118
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I would love to see a 6 or a max of 8 episode superman mini series (if they were to ever make one) with a lean, concise storyline but in reality if CW do get a crack at superman it would a 20 + episode season with tons of fillers and some ridicules love plot that all the Berlanti shows seem to suffer from and to that I say no thank you! I'm more than happy to see tyler's superman in a 2 episode arc at the beginning and maybe the end of the season.
Hoechlin’s version of Superman (wise, experienced, established) is almost ideal as a supporting player/occasional guest star. I.e., he represents the classic/iconic Superman - in whose shadow newcomer Kara has to define herself. This makes Kara, dramatically speaking (and by deliberate design), the far more interesting character.

But a spinoff series starring Hoechlin (based on the Supergirl continuity) would be, I think, problematic. They’d be repurposing a supporting/established Superman (whose arc is essentially complete) to the status of main lead. Technically, doable I suppose. However, such a series would have a strong “been there, done that” flavor (especially since the extant Supergirl has already “borrowed” many of the classic Superman tropes).

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Old 01-11-2017, 11:00 AM   #119
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How is his arc complete? Because he's not learning how to be a hero anymore? Or his to juggle dusk identities? The fact that he's established makes it far more interesting if a story. Not having to endure his "growing pains" does not mean the story is finished at all. It would be far more interesting at this point in the Berlantiverse to see a hero who is in the next phase of their career. A Tyler Hoechlin Superman series would be a breath of fresh air IMO.

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Old 01-11-2017, 12:55 PM   #120
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I would love to see a 6 or a max of 8 episode superman mini series (if they were to ever make one) with a lean, concise storyline but in reality if CW do get a crack at superman it would a 20 + episode season with tons of fillers and some ridicules love plot that all the Berlanti shows seem to suffer from and to that I say no thank you! I'm more than happy to see tyler's superman in a 2 episode arc at the beginning and maybe the end of the season.
And there-in lies the problem of having had Superman on the show. Now Supergirl isn't good enough for people. They want the "real" thing.
Frankly the show would have been better off from the very start if Superman never existed. Made Kara the only survivor of Kryton. Or this is the time
where Superman was gone, like the premise of Superman Returns. Or was killed by Doomsday and this was the reason why Kara became Supergirl.

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Old 01-11-2017, 01:03 PM   #121
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And there-in lies the problem of having had Superman on the show. Now Supergirl isn't good enough for people. They want the "real" thing.
Frankly the show would have been better off from the very start if Superman never existed. Made Kara the only survivor of Kryton. Or this is the time
where Superman was gone, like the premise of Superman Returns. Or was killed by Doomsday and this was the reason why Kara became Supergirl.
No one has said they cant have both and most people don't want Supergirl cancelled in place of a Superman show.

The point actually is that people loved this version of the character. Love or hate Routh or Cavill's versions they have had mixed responses from the masses and the Supergirl/Hoechlin version has been mostly warmly received. People haven't universally loved a version of Superman in a long time so people just want more of a great thing.

The show would not have been better off had he not existed at all. The fact they tied the character in so closely with her cousin has been one of the great things about the show. Also the fact the two Superman episodes were as good as they were helped the transition to the CW.

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Old 01-11-2017, 01:18 PM   #122
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No one has said they cant have both and most people don't want Supergirl cancelled in place of a Superman show.

The point actually is that people loved this version of the character. Love or hate Routh or Cavill's versions they have had mixed responses from the masses and the Supergirl/Hoechlin version has been mostly warmly received. People haven't universally loved a version of Superman in a long time so people just want more of a great thing.

The show would not have been better off had he not existed at all. The fact they tied the character in so closely with her cousin has been one of the great things about the show. Also the fact the two Superman episodes were as good as they were helped the transition to the CW.

That's bogus though. The Supergirl series itself has a very divisive and mixed response (look at it's mediocre IMDB scores and RT Audience rankings).

Therefore, Hoechilin getting approval from the show's recurring viewers doesn't mean much, when the show itself is a mixed bag that most audiences have stopped watching (even on CBS, ratings were sinking fast).

In a nutshell, Hoechilin is just as mixed as Welling, Cavill and Routh and Cain.

It's unfortunate that he won't get a chance to continue as Super'man', but on this show it's no major loss. His character time and development would have been incredibly limited, as to not overshadow Kara.

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Old 01-11-2017, 01:21 PM   #123
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BH/HHH: What, in your mind, would be the pitch for a Tyler Hoechlin Superman series that wouldn't be simply a rehash/repeat of what's happening with Melissa Benoist's Supergirl?

With regards to Supergirl existing without her cousin, that was never going to happen, because the desire to do the series at all was predicated upon the connections between the two characters and the ability to have them co-existing.

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Old 01-11-2017, 01:37 PM   #124
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That's bogus though. The Supergirl series itself has a very divisive and mixed response (look at it's mediocre IMDB scores and RT Audience rankings).

Therefore, Hoechilin getting approval from the show's recurring viewers doesn't mean much, when the show itself is a mixed bag that most audiences have stopped watching (even on CBS, ratings were sinking fast).

In a nutshell, Hoechilin is just as mixed as Welling, Cavill and Routh and Cain.

It's unfortunate that he won't get a chance to continue as Super'man', but on this show it's no major loss. His character time and development would have been incredibly limited, as to not overshadow Kara.
He isn't though he's been warmly received both critically and generally. He'll be back I'm sure of it.

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BH/HHH: What, in your mind, would be the pitch for a Tyler Hoechlin Superman series that wouldn't be simply a rehash/repeat of what's happening with Melissa Benoist's Supergirl?

With regards to Supergirl existing without her cousin, that was never going to happen, because the desire to do the series at all was predicated upon the connections between the two characters and the ability to have them co-existing.
I'm no writer but I've said before a mini series about Superman vs Mongul with War World would be easy to do. His about Superman and Lois as parents to Jon Kent? There's loads of options and I'm in writer so it wouldn't be up to me to come up with ideas they'd use. They're talented people and there's a whole history of comics lore to choose from.

Also if we're talking rehashing stories all superhero properties do that whether it's comics, movies or tv, etc.

Plans can change, success can bring new options. If the movies weren't going on right now I get WBs would have spun this Superman into his own show.

I'm not saying it will happen but to say it won't or can't because it's not the plan right now is just silly.

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Last edited by BH/HHH; 01-11-2017 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 01-11-2017, 01:47 PM   #125
Kelly
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Default Re: Tyler Hoechlin IS Superman - Part 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost_Rider View Post
That's bogus though. The Supergirl series itself has a very divisive and mixed response (look at it's mediocre IMDB scores and RT Audience rankings).
"Divisive"?

This season has had a much more positive response than the first, which is not surprising with better writing.

Quote:
Therefore, Hoechilin getting approval from the show's recurring viewers doesn't mean much, when the show itself is a mixed bag that most audiences have stopped watching (even on CBS, ratings were sinking fast).
All ratings have fallen on scripted tv series. It is doing quite well at the CW, even staying in the toughest night on TV.

Quote:
In a nutshell, Hoechilin is just as mixed as Welling, Cavill and Routh and Cain.
Hoechlin's Superman has been very well received with little negative. Far from mixed as say a Routh...

Quote:
It's unfortunate that he won't get a chance to continue as Super'man', but on this show it's no major loss. His character time and development would have been incredibly limited, as to not overshadow Kara.
I'm not sure you have watched the show or really have any clue what you are talking about....

1. No one has said that he will not be back on "Supergirl".
2. How was he limited in the first 2 episodes? he was a huge part of those episodes and didn't overshadow Kara in the least.

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