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View Poll Results: Which was the best?
Raimi's Spider-man 87 33.98%
Webb's Amazing Spider-man 129 50.39%
I don't want to compare them 22 8.59%
They are equal 18 7.03%
Voters: 256. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-12-2012, 01:54 AM   #1
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Default Re: So now we've seen both, which was the best?

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is Here

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Old 11-12-2012, 01:54 AM   #2
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Default So now we've seen both, which was the best?

Raimi's Spiderman or Webb's? For me it's a no brainer. Raimi's was spectacular.

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Old 11-12-2012, 01:54 AM   #3
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Default Re: So now we've seen both, which was the best?

The CG of Spider-man was poor AT THE TIME. I remember watching in 2002 and being completely taken out of the movie when he starts running and jumping over rooftops and not ONE SCENE of that sequence couldn't have been done with practicle stunts.

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Old 11-12-2012, 07:55 AM   #4
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Default Re: So now we've seen both, which was the best?

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Originally Posted by spider-neil View Post
The CG of Spider-man was poor AT THE TIME. I remember watching in 2002 and being completely taken out of the movie when he starts running and jumping over rooftops and not ONE SCENE of that sequence couldn't have been done with practicle stunts.
There were only one or two scenes were the CGI was THAT bad. The scene with him chasing after Ben's killer (running into the alley, climbing up the wall, and some swinging) and a shot of Spider-Man trying to catch the tram car at the end of the movie. Those shots needed to be CGI, I don't see how these entire scenes could be practical. The movie is still one of my favorites, and the bad CGI doesn't ruin the experience at all.

The only time the movie could be ruined is if I'm watching with someone else who keeps pointing out the bad CGI to me. That could get really annoying. You can't ruin the illusion! lol

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Old 11-12-2012, 09:28 AM   #5
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Default Re: So now we've seen both, which was the best? - Part 1

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I am the one who said 'it doesn't matter' if you're trying to say a hero and a villain is different because you clearly said if a movie is successful then such an interpretation of a character is the "best" version simply because a film is successful, and that's clearly not true.

A hero can be better and a villain can be better. We haven't seen PERFECT interpretations of any comic book character, hero or villain, but at least Nolan's Batman was much closer than Raimi's Green Goblin.
We dont need any perfect interpretations,we need interpretations perfect for the film which Dafoe's Goblin was
Its like saying Ledger's Joker wasnt perfect because he didnt fall into pit of chemicals

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Once again, the idea that he just took said mask from his home is one of the most illogical things you've said.
Why is it illogical?

Quote:
I am not being ridiculous actually because a giant lizard in New York should create equivalent amount of panic. You're ridiculous to suggest otherwise
It didnt because very few people actually saw the Giant Lizard in the first place while a ****load of them got exposed to the Gas in BB

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Old 11-12-2012, 11:14 AM   #6
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Default Re: So now we've seen both, which was the best? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Spiderdevil View Post
It was released in 2002,ofcourse the CGI would be of that level.Plus raimi had limited funds

Overall,Best origin movie ever,without a shadow of a doubt
Second best.

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We dont need any perfect interpretations,we need interpretations perfect for the film which Dafoe's Goblin was
Its like saying Ledger's Joker wasnt perfect because he didnt fall into pit of chemicals
Dafoe's Goblin wasn't perfect either and you only assume it is because the film is "successful".

And it's nothing like Ledger's Joker, because the origin fit to Nolan's hyper-realism basis for his characters. For Raimi's GG? The actual costume could have worked simply because a same kind of material was used with Spidey's costume and there is even an alien in Raimi's universe. Creating a goblin persona through a fascination of folklore is not that far of a stretch.

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Why is it illogical?
You see nothing illogical about saying Norman Osborn found this:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:


in his home when all of his other masks looked like masks from cultures around the world?

A metallic green mask would be an oddball with his collection and would be illogical for him to possess.

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It didnt because very few people actually saw the Giant Lizard in the first place while a ****load of them got exposed to the Gas in BB
It's called a television. It's called the radio.

And it's called mass hysteria when cops tell you to leave your home.

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Old 11-12-2012, 02:02 AM   #7
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Default Re: So now we've seen both, which was the best? - Part 1

Tell that to us people who were under 10 years old when it came out.

But then there are other sequences that have CGI and are seamless, like the burning apartment building when Spidey is avoiding Gobby's flying weapons. That little sequence is all CGI. And I didn't even know till 2 years ago.

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Old 11-12-2012, 03:44 AM   #8
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Default Re: So now we've seen both, which was the best? - Part 1

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Tell that to us people who were under 10 years old when it came out.

But then there are other sequences that have CGI and are seamless, like the burning apartment building when Spidey is avoiding Gobby's flying weapons. That little sequence is all CGI. And I didn't even know till 2 years ago.
When the CG is good it's really bad and when it's bad it's a disgrace.
As a movie I still think the climax is the best in any comic book movie I have seen. The end fight is brutal. Sure there have been better movies than SM but the climaxes leave me cool.
Bored by the climaxes of TDK, IM, SM2, X2, X:FC.
Great movies that peak in the middle whereas SM peaks at the end.

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Old 11-12-2012, 09:23 AM   #9
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Default Re: So now we've seen both, which was the best? - Part 1

It was released in 2002,ofcourse the CGI would be of that level.Plus raimi had limited funds

Overall,Best origin movie ever,without a shadow of a doubt

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Old 11-14-2012, 02:15 PM   #10
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Default Re: So now we've seen both, which was the best? - Part 1

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The problem with saying AMS is a better movie is you really need to be a big fan of Spider-Man to appreciate it. Like I've said it was a solid Spider-Man adventure but it was all over the place. A movie should have a solid theme that carries it beginning to end. Web did a good job directing Peter and it's a different take from the Raimi films, but it's just so weak as a stand alone film. It's not bad, it's definitely Captain America good, but this is Spider-Man it's not hard to make a really meaningful and emotional Spider-Man movie.
Most of the people I saw TASM with said they liked it more than the Raimi films and most of them never touched a Spider-Man comic in their life. One of my friends even said it was the first Spider-Man movie she liked. I wouldn't say it's all over the place or a weak stand alone film. It is a good coming of age film and a good origin story, though I do think it yells "Sequel continuation!" a bit.

One thing we are in agreement on is that Spider-Man's films should not be on the same level of quality as Captain America's films. Nothing against Cap. His movie was good but Spidey should definitely be up there with Batman when it comes to quality films.

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Its like saying Ledger's Joker wasnt perfect because he didnt fall into pit of chemicals
The Joker's "falling into a pit of chemicals" origin was never canon to begin with. That is just one story - one of the many myths - of how the Joker came to be. No one really knows who or what created the Joker. He kinda just popped out of nowhere. The Red Hood origin in which he fell into a vat of chemicals is just one of the many theories that characters in the DC universe have about the Joker's origin (including the Joker himself) but that is just one of the many possibilities. The Joker himself remembers his origin in a different way each time and says in the comics "I don't exactly remember what happened to me. Somedays I remember it one way, somedays another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" So technically, Nolan stayed true to the Joker's character by not giving him a definitive origin, having him just pop out of nowhere with no explanation to where he comes from, and having him remember his origin in a different way each time. It's not a deviation from the comics.

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It was released in 2002,ofcourse the CGI would be of that level.Plus raimi had limited funds
The CGI in the movie was not that great even for the CGI available in 2002. The movie looks really dated for a movie just 10 years old.

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Overall,Best origin movie ever,without a shadow of a doubt
I would argue that The Amazing Spider-Man, Superman I, Batman Begins, and Iron Man 1 outclass it by far. SM1 is not that good of an origin movie. It quickly rushed through the origin and once the origin is finished, the rest of the movie feels like a completely different film. TASM and the rest of the movies I brought up don't really have that problem for the most part with the exception of maybe Superman I. And even then, it kinda worked in that movie.

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Old 11-14-2012, 11:34 PM   #11
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Default Re: So now we've seen both, which was the best? - Part 1

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The Joker's "falling into a pit of chemicals" origin was never canon to begin with. That is just one story - one of the many myths - of how the Joker came to be. No one really knows who or what created the Joker. He kinda just popped out of nowhere. The Red Hood origin in which he fell into a vat of chemicals is just one of the many theories that characters in the DC universe have about the Joker's origin (including the Joker himself) but that is just one of the many possibilities. The Joker himself remembers his origin in a different way each time and says in the comics "I don't exactly remember what happened to me. Somedays I remember it one way, somedays another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" So technically, Nolan stayed true to the Joker's character by not giving him a definitive origin, having him just pop out of nowhere with no explanation to where he comes from, and having him remember his origin in a different way each time. It's not a deviation from the comics.
What about two-face or Doc-Ock? Are they flawed because they arent exactly as in the comics?
Because by Anno's logic they are

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I would argue that The Amazing Spider-Man, Superman I, Batman Begins, and Iron Man 1 outclass it by far. SM1 is not that good of an origin movie. It quickly rushed through the origin and once the origin is finished, the rest of the movie feels like a completely different film. TASM and the rest of the movies I brought up don't really have that problem for the most part with the exception of maybe Superman I. And even then, it kinda worked in that movie.
To be fair,that wasnt a time when Superhero movies especially concentrated on the origin.They thought of making individual movies and the first movie had a rushed origin most of the time to get to the point

Nowadays the trend has changed.The first movie is entirely dedicated to an origin and they try to work with the trilogy as a whole instead of trying to make individual movies as they come

Just see X-men(2000) and X-Men:First Class(2010)
Clear cut difference in terms of narration of the Origin


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Old 11-15-2012, 01:38 AM   #12
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Default Re: So now we've seen both, which was the best? - Part 1

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What about two-face or Doc-Ock? Are they flawed because they arent exactly as in the comics?
Two Face was closer to the comics than Doc Ock.

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Old 11-15-2012, 03:34 AM   #13
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Default Re: So now we've seen both, which was the best? - Part 1

If you could mix and match elements of the Raimi Spider-Man movie (the first one) and TASM

* ASM Cast (all of them)
* ASM origin
* SM death of UB (including UB talk in car and wrestling scene)
* SM villian
* SM climax

For me that would be the perfect Spider-Man movie
Simply put, I prefer the first 2 acts of ASM and I prefer the 3rd act of SM.

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Old 11-16-2012, 03:11 PM   #14
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Default Re: So now we've seen both, which was the best? - Part 1

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What about two-face or Doc-Ock? Are they flawed because they arent exactly as in the comics?
Because by Anno's logic they are
I can't speak for Anno. I can only speak for myself.

Two-Face was faithful to the comics. I admit that I prefer the split personality version of Two-Face over the dark side/fallen corrupt "chance-believer" version of Two-Face (for lack of better term lol) but he's been written both ways before in the comics so neither version is wrong. Plus, the version of Two-Face they based the movie version on fits better with the movie's plot than the split personality version. So I don't see why that would be an issue.

As for Doc Ock, he was a well done character. I wouldn't say he is flawed just because he is not like the comics but as a fan of the comics, I would say that I would've liked to see a more faithful Doc Ock not just because I love Doc Ock as a character but because I believe you can tell more interesting stories with the evil unsympathetic Doc Ock from the comics as opposed to the stories you can do with Raimi's "good guy at heart" take on Doc Ock. I would say that one of Raimi's rejected ideas is evidence of this. Raimi wanted to do the Sinister Six down the line if the franchise would've continued, which could've been great. The problem is that even if that would've happened, you couldn't use Doc Ock due to him being a good guy at heart in the Raimi continuity and due to not having any reason after SM2's ending (if he was still alive) to go after Spider-Man. Had Doc Ock been truly evil from the beginning, that wouldn't have been a problem down the line if the Raimi franchise continued to a point where you could've done the Six in live-action.

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To be fair,that wasnt a time when Superhero movies especially concentrated on the origin.They thought of making individual movies and the first movie had a rushed origin most of the time to get to the point

Nowadays the trend has changed.The first movie is entirely dedicated to an origin and they try to work with the trilogy as a whole instead of trying to make individual movies as they come

Just see X-men(2000) and X-Men:First Class(2010)
Clear cut difference in terms of narration of the Origin
X-Men was not intended to be an origin film though. It jumped straight in with Xavier's school already established.

I would argue comic book movies are starting to move away from the "first movie is a whole origin" trend. But anyways, to address your point that they thought of doing individual films and rushed the origin to get to the point, I have 2 arguments to counter that.

1) The big problem is not so much rushing through the origin but making it blatantly obvious you're trying to get it out of the way. As I said before, after Ben's death, the whole movie feels like a different movie altogether with a whole new story. There are ways you can "rush" the origin and still making the rest of the movie's story feel more consistent. In my opinion, the first Superman movie does do the origin pretty quickly but once you get to Metropolis, it doesn't feel like a whole different film starts (at least not to me).

2) Doing the origin =/= not having an individual film with a unique story and a story with no point. I can name comic book movies that were origin films that had strong and good stories with the "point" still being there (Batman Begins and Iron Man are good examples). The origin is not by any means something that "drags" or that just simply shows how the hero came to be and nothing else (though that is the case with a good chunk of superheroes) and this applies especially in Spider-Man's case, who has one of the greatest origins out there. The origin story itself is a great Spidey story to begin with.

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Old 11-17-2012, 10:28 AM   #15
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Default Re: So now we've seen both, which was the best? - Part 1

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Plus, the version of Two-Face they based the movie version on fits better with the movie's plot than the split personality version. So I don't see why that would be an issue.
Thats the whole point of my argument
I want the Villian to be perfect for the plot rather than a perfect copy of his comic book counterpart.

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1) The big problem is not so much rushing through the origin but making it blatantly obvious you're trying to get it out of the way. As I said before, after Ben's death, the whole movie feels like a different movie altogether with a whole new story. There are ways you can "rush" the origin and still making the rest of the movie's story feel more consistent. In my opinion, the first Superman movie does do the origin pretty quickly but once you get to Metropolis, it doesn't feel like a whole different film starts (at least not to me).
I could say the something similar for BB
It felt to me that they concentrated too much on the origin part which is the main reason why Ra's and Scarecrow character landed flat because of no development.
The 'different movie' aspect was a LOT more apparent with TASM.One moment he is looking for his Uncle's killer,then BOOM he starts fighting a giant Lizard without even giving a reason for his change in motivation.

I would IM1 was the perfect mix between the Origin and the antagonistic forces
Spider-man comes a close second at that imo.The origin is no way rushed as you say and it didnt felt like a different movie to me.His source of motivation is completely clear unlike TASM.The character development is seen throught the movie down to the last scene where he walks away from MJ and narrates how he cannot afford to be with her because of his powers

Quote:
2) Doing the origin =/= not having an individual film with a unique story and a story with no point. I can name comic book movies that were origin films that had strong and good stories with the "point" still being there (Batman Begins and Iron Man are good examples). The origin is not by any means something that "drags" or that just simply shows how the hero came to be and nothing else (though that is the case with a good chunk of superheroes) and this applies especially in Spider-Man's case, who has one of the greatest origins out there. The origin story itself is a great Spidey story to begin with.
You are missing a major point here,2002 was not a time when CBM's especially concentrated on origins,as you yourself said,X-men didnt even bother showing the origin of any characters.People were like that back then.They wanted direct action,the genre wasnt famous at that time aswell which is why directors didnt like to take a risk spending to much time on telling the origin and have the audience give it a cold shoulder.(I think this is what happened with BB as far as box office is concerned)

With the Genre a lot more famous nowadays and people talking interest in the characters,directors are more at ease on taking time showing the origin well and keeping the whole trilogy in mind rather than concentrating on making individual movies a success.

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Old 11-15-2012, 03:29 PM   #16
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Default Re: So now we've seen both, which was the best? - Part 1

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Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
The Joker's "falling into a pit of chemicals" origin was never canon to begin with. That is just one story - one of the many myths - of how the Joker came to be. No one really knows who or what created the Joker. He kinda just popped out of nowhere. The Red Hood origin in which he fell into a vat of chemicals is just one of the many theories that characters in the DC universe have about the Joker's origin (including the Joker himself) but that is just one of the many possibilities. The Joker himself remembers his origin in a different way each time and says in the comics "I don't exactly remember what happened to me. Somedays I remember it one way, somedays another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" So technically, Nolan stayed true to the Joker's character by not giving him a definitive origin, having him just pop out of nowhere with no explanation to where he comes from, and having him remember his origin in a different way each time. It's not a deviation from the comics.
In the Golden Age story introducing the Red Hood it was explained Red Hood jumped in the chemical vat to escape Batman, and he was the Red Hood

I'm going with that idea since Joker is a tough fighter

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Old 11-16-2012, 03:17 PM   #17
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In the Golden Age story introducing the Red Hood it was explained Red Hood jumped in the chemical vat to escape Batman, and he was the Red Hood

I'm going with that idea since Joker is a tough fighter

That story was actually in the Silver Age (early 1950's to be exact) and was retconned many years ago. In Post-Crisis continuity, including the new 52, the Joker has no canon origin. The "falling into a vat of chemicals" is just one of the many origins the Joker had in the comics and is only a myth or a theory on how the Joker came to be just like all of his other origins.

I personally prefer it this way. It gives him a very unique mysterious vibe that no other villain has .

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Old 11-18-2012, 04:49 AM   #18
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That story was actually in the Silver Age (early 1950's to be exact)
How early? I get the Silver Age starts somewhere in 1955
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and was retconned many years ago. In Post-Crisis continuity, including the new 52, the Joker has no canon origin.
I forgot about that Crisis, and Basil being murdered before it then returning to life

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Old 11-12-2012, 08:41 PM   #19
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Default Re: So now we've seen both, which was the best? - Part 1

The problem with saying AMS is a better movie is you really need to be a big fan of Spider-Man to appreciate it. Like I've said it was a solid Spider-Man adventure but it was all over the place. A movie should have a solid theme that carries it beginning to end. Web did a good job directing Peter and it's a different take from the Raimi films, but it's just so weak as a stand alone film. It's not bad, it's definitely Captain America good, but this is Spider-Man it's not hard to make a really meaningful and emotional Spider-Man movie.

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Old 11-12-2012, 09:39 PM   #20
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Default Re: So now we've seen both, which was the best? - Part 1

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The problem with saying AMS is a better movie is you really need to be a big fan of Spider-Man to appreciate it.
My wife is not a Spider-man fan and qualifies ASM as a better movie than SM1...and she has impeccable taste.

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Old 11-12-2012, 09:50 PM   #21
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My wife is not a Spider-man fan and qualifies ASM as a better movie than SM1...and she has impeccable taste.
My MOM and my SISTER said this was waaaaaaaaaay better than SM1

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Old 11-12-2012, 10:16 PM   #22
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My brother enjoyed it more than any of Raimi's films.

So I don't know how one could say you'd have to be a Spidey fan to like TAS-M, lol.

I'm a Spidey fan and I only think TAS-M is better than S-M 3 myself, so it's not really a "you have to be a Spidey fan to like TAS-M" deal.

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Old 11-12-2012, 10:26 PM   #23
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My brother enjoyed it more than any of Raimi's films.

So I don't know how one could say you'd have to be a Spidey fan to like TAS-M, lol.

I'm a Spidey fan and I only think TAS-M is better than S-M 3 myself, so it's not really a "you have to be a Spidey fan to like TAS-M" deal.
is like saying that you have to know every single Avenger to enjoy the movie MANY of the general audience didn´t know many of the characters before the Marvel CU started , because not everyone has seen every movie

or you can´t Enjoy TDKR without knowing Batman, well in this case because is a little different from the comics(every movie based on comics is) but MOST of the people love this franchise

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Old 11-13-2012, 12:16 AM   #24
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Default Re: So now we've seen both, which was the best? - Part 1

I consider the first hour of TASM the best first half in an origin movie to date.Serious

But the movie's quality just nosedived after that,only good things remaining were the school fight and the final 10 minutes(Uncle Ben's speech and all)
While SM1 was wonderful throughout the 2 hours and never had a dull moment

A different villian would have done a whole lot of good to TASM,I always knew Lizard wont be able to carry a film.Webb and co put to much confidence into a combined origin of the villian and hero theme which no one felt in the end

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Old 11-13-2012, 12:55 AM   #25
Anno_Domini
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Default Re: So now we've seen both, which was the best? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Spiderdevil View Post
Yeah I would agree that Iron Man has less flaws and is more perfect
But considering the iconic status and moments in SM1,the 'Wow' factor and how it totally changed the scene of the CB universe on the big screen.Best origin movie imo


Once more, you're still talking about the second best origin film. Spider-Man and Iron Man are tied at 2nd.

I enjoy Spider-Man more and more these days(which is odd, but I guess it's me realizing how much the '02 film is superior to TAS-M) and it's becoming even with Iron Man's origin these days.

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I dont want any perfect interpretation,I want interpretations that are perfect for the film.Molina Doc Ock wasnt perfect either,but he was perfect for the film
CB fans should want perfect, or at least near perfect interpretations and that's what can be said for Molina's Doc Ock, which can't be said for Dafoe's Green Goblin.

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Its better for him to wear a pilot's suit,while wearing a mask resembling a Goblin's face which is a nice nod to his resemblance
Much more realistic

And please bring the symbiote into this to show the unrealism,keep SM3 out of it
Much more realistic? This isn't Webb's reboot that kept trying to push the "grounded" tone. This is Raimi's version which didn't have any limitations and having a better Green Goblin wouldn't have hurt. Instead, we only get a nod to the comics because of a dumb mask and just a green pilot suit the neck down. Pathetic.

And I will bring in S-M 3 when it's all in one universe.

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No I dont think so
Not more illogical that a villian creating a skin tight costume
The things you say make me laugh. Thanks.

I suppose it's illogical to you for a hero to create a skin tight costume then, yes?

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The Lizard was never filmed by the media,we see the ****in bugle beggin for photos
And no matter how you twist,nothing causes more panic than ****loads of hallucinogenic gases released in the air
The Lizard was filmed as he entered OsCorp. Didn't pay attention to the movie I see.

Although I'm not twisting anything. Panic is panic, fear is fear. Some gas shouldn't be the only reason to cause panic and mayhem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiderdevil View Post
I consider the first hour of TASM the best first half in an origin movie to date.Serious

But the movie's quality just nosedived after that,only good things remaining were the school fight and the final 10 minutes(Uncle Ben's speech and all)
While SM1 was wonderful throughout the 2 hours and never had a dull moment

A different villian would have done a whole lot of good to TASM,I always knew Lizard wont be able to carry a film.Webb and co put to much confidence into a combined origin of the villian and hero theme which no one felt in the end
You were talking about how you thought Spider-Man was the best origin film, but now TAS-M's first hour is the best in an origin film?

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