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Old 11-28-2013, 12:53 AM   #801
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
People get caught up with the glasses, because that's the given explanation. If the next film gives a different explanation, that will likely be more credible. If Clark remains incognito from his coworkers, that could be something, but it also changes the dynamic of the Planet a great deal, for instance, Clark doesn't have relationships with those people, by and large, or Superman doesn't. The limited number of logical tone-appropriate explanations and the implications (DP not being supporting cast really) are notable. And pretending it makes sense would not make it less noticeable.
I don't see the glasses as being the only given explanation for why people don't recognize Clark as Superman. It's a part of the disguise, but it's not all that's involved with it. There are a number of factors for why people don't figure it out, but I have never thought it's just the glasses. It's a mixture of the way he acts as Clark, the posture he carries himself with as Clark, and how he interacts with people as Clark. In my view, that is the biggest part of the disguise. It's really like a magician's trick to fool people into seeing what they want to see. They see a geeky, mild-mannered reporter and he gives them that. Therefore there is no reason to question if this person is someone he is not. There simply is no reason to question it. That's a part of the misdirection. Clark Kent gives no one any reason to believe he could possibly be Superman. In my view, that's all the movie really needs to show.

I usually don't like to refer to the Nolan Batman trilogy that much because it's not really all the useful; however, there is one scene where people kind of laughingly say Bruce could be Bats. Bruce laughs it off like everyone else and then immediately goes into his care-free playboy mode. It was one scene, but that's all it really took to convince the audience that this guy is really fooling people. We as the audience knew that wasn't his real nature, but we bought the act he was selling. MOS2 just needs a scene like that. They need to show him selling the act.


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Old 11-28-2013, 01:02 AM   #802
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I already said its not about jokes. It is about vividness.

I find DC movies to be absolutely emotionless. Even Marvel films. I don't even need these films to be emotional, just switched on and engaging and not morose people moping about the screen.

It ain't about jokes, it is about life.
Well, I take the opposite view. The marvel films I find completely sterile for the most part, and the strongest emotional response I got from them was absolutely hatred and anger, from the ultra-idiotic Thor 2 and also Iron Man 2, as they were so bad it was offensive. But mostly, with Captain America, the Incredible Hulk, the Avengers, etc I experience boredom.

Ang Lee's Hulk was basically a DC movie in the Marvel universe, and it's my favourite of the MCU-continuity films.

MoS, the Nolan Batman films, Watchmen, have something utterly lacking in the Marvel films: a sense of importance and epic adventure, it feels like you're watching an important historical event. MoS makes gives the feeling like you're watching an important historical event, Thor 2 gives the feeling that it's another day at the office. They have, and this is going to sound trivial... they have themes... the Marvel movies for the most part don't have themes, they're just sterile narratives that go fro point A to point B, formulaic hero's epics with a lot of plot holes and mediocre action shots and cinematography.

TDK has the theme of whether Gotham needs a hero and what kind of hero, TDKR has the theme of the costs of political demagoguery (Bane, but also consequences of the Dent Act) but also the ineffectiveness of the modern US military which is a clever commentary on Afghanistan. MoS has the themes of choice, evolution, etc. It also has a layered portrayal of the military, one more complex than anything in any MCU film except for Ang Lee's Hulk. In contrast, none of the MCU movies have themes. They're not about anything, and they're not trying to be.

In terms of "feeling", the Avengerss musical theme 515,000 listeners on youtube, whereas the Dark Knight has several youtube pages with over 1,000,000 listeners, including links with 5.5 million and 2.5 million listeners. That's because the Avengers musical theme, like all MCU music and indeed all MCU emotional beats, is fundamentally sterile, it doesn't hit for power, it aims for minimal functionality. They didn't try and create something more memorable. There's no ambition in any MCU film, not even in the scores.

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...oundtrack&sm=3

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...oundtrack&sm=3

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Nah. I don't want them to change tone at all. DC movies are the only ones that have any human emotion and drama at all. MOS could have used more, but it at least had some. Marvel is just one big quip party with no real tension. Not interested in all CBMs being like that.
Yup, he MCU films have no tension.


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Old 11-28-2013, 01:07 AM   #803
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Most of the complaints people make about Man of Steel (too serious, boring action, dark color palette, etc) are how I feel about The Incredible Hulk and Captain America: The First Avenger. But those movie have none of MOS's strong points, of which there are many (strong emotional core, some absolutely wonderful cinematography, mind-blowing flight scenes).

For me,

Man of Steel: 8/10, Captain America: 5.5/10, Incredible Hulk: 5/10

And with regards to box office success, MOS made more than CA and TIH combined.



(though I do like the part with Cap flying the ship into the ice. That was great. Red Skull is entertaining as well, in a similar campy/intense way to Zod, though much less interesting as a character, and with a less interesting relationship with the protagonist).


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Old 11-28-2013, 01:09 AM   #804
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Well, I take the opposite view. The marvel films I find completely sterile for the most part, and the strongest emotional response I got from them was absolutely hatred and anger, from the ultra-idiotic Thor 2 and also Iron Man 2. But mostly, with Captain America, the Incredible Hulk, the Avengers, etc I experience boredom.

Ang Lee's Hulk was basically a DC movie in the Marvel universe, and it's my favourite of the MCU-continuity films.

MoS, the Nolan Batman films, Watchmen, have something utterly lacking in the Marvel films: a sense of importance and epic adventure, it feels like you're watching an important historical event. They have, and this is going to sound trivial... they have themes... the Marvel movies for the most part don't have themes, they're just sterile narratives that go fro point A to point B, formulaic hero's epics with a lot of plot holes.
According to me that is the greatest failing of DC films - self aggrandization, something I absolutely detest in any film let alone superhero films.

And themes... another pet peeve. I find themes to be basically the malaise of modern film criticism, as if you were discussing works of philosophy rather than movies. I find such conversation so precious to be almost ludicrous. I find it crude frankly. The greatest directors absolutely refuse to discuss the "themes" or "layers" or "nuances" of their works. Try talking to the Coens or Haneke about those and they will stare you down.

I think it is just a whole lot of projection. If a director says that he made films to specifically address those sort of things, I find it pretentious as hell. Those kind of things can only ever be subjective, in the eye of the beholder and not inherent in a work or an objective quality.

Eitherways, that's my little pet peeve.
I find the recourse to "themes" to exalt their favorite films is used by people the most unaware of them.

Rant over. Carry on folks.

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Old 11-28-2013, 01:14 AM   #805
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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According to me that is the greatest failing of DC films - self aggrandization, something I absolutely detest in any film let alone superhero films.
Haha...DC was built on that premise. All their movies should have some of that because their heroes are larger than life. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman....lol. The Trinity. Man, it's all over the comics and pretty much every other DC incarnation including cartoons.

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Old 11-28-2013, 01:15 AM   #806
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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MoS, the Nolan Batman films, Watchmen, have something utterly lacking in the Marvel films: a sense of importance and epic adventure, it feels like you're watching an important historical event. MoS makes gives the feeling like you're watching an important historical event, Thor 2 gives the feeling that it's another day at the office. They have, and this is going to sound trivial... they have themes... the Marvel movies for the most part don't have themes, they're just sterile narratives that go fro point A to point B, formulaic hero's epics with a lot of plot holes.
Yes. This is why I prefer DC in a nutshell. Well said.

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Old 11-28-2013, 01:21 AM   #807
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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According to me that is the greatest failing of DC films - self aggrandization, something I absolutely detest in any film let alone superhero films.

And themes... another pet peeve. I find themes to be basically the malaise of modern film criticism, as if you were discussing works of philosophy rather than movies. I find such conversation so precious to be almost ludicrous. I find it crude frankly. The greatest directors absolutely refuse to discuss the "themes" or "layers" or "nuances" of their works. Try talking to the Coens or Haneke about those and they will stare you down.

I think it is just a whole lot of projection. If a director says that he made films to specifically address those sort of things, I find it pretentious as hell. Those kind of things can only ever be subjective, in the eye of the beholder and not inherent in a work or an objective quality.

Eitherways, that's my little pet peeve.
I find the recourse to "themes" to exalt their favorite films is used by people the most unaware of them.

Rant over. Carry on folks.
Nolan also denied that there were real-world issues explored in TDK. It's something directors say.

OK, well if you prefer the "just another day at the office" approach to storytelling, then good for you. Carry on.

I prefer escapism.

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Old 11-28-2013, 01:22 AM   #808
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Well it's pretty reductive to say that about DC and Marvel when you have the Green Lantern movie, etc.

But I agree, it's why I like TDKT and MOS above everything else. They have such strong emotional and thematic cores.

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Old 11-28-2013, 01:26 AM   #809
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Well it's pretty reductive to say that about DC and Marvel when you have the Green Lantern movie, etc.
Yeah, that's true. I don't even like all DC movies. I actually find Green Lantern to be very Marvelesque. The Nolan trilogy and MOS are the ones I like to varying degrees. I also liked Watchmen.

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Old 11-28-2013, 01:27 AM   #810
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Well it's pretty reductive to say that about DC and Marvel when you have the Green Lantern movie, etc.

But I agree, it's why I like TDKT and MOS above everything else. They have such strong emotional and thematic cores.
That is what. "Emotional and thematic cores" are subjective. Someone might say he found those things in Jonax Hex and that wouldn't make him wrong or you correct. It is just completely in the eye of beholder. You cannot objectively say one movie possesses "Emotional and thematic cores" and another movie doesn't. A credible case could be made for each and every single movie in existence.

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Old 11-28-2013, 01:30 AM   #811
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Well of course I mean "in my opinion".

Those movies connect with me. That's what I'm trying to say.

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Old 11-28-2013, 01:33 AM   #812
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Wait a minute...what is TDKT?

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Old 11-28-2013, 01:35 AM   #813
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

They connected with me too.

Those movies have flaws certainly. But they try to be something and I love that. When they get it wrong, it sucks. It's such a let down because the potential/ambition of these movies raises the hype to extreme levels. But when they get it right...they blow everything else outta the water.

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Old 11-28-2013, 01:35 AM   #814
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Well of course I mean "in my opinion".

Those movies connect with me. That's what I'm trying to say.
That's okay then.

I thought you said that DC movies "have themes" and Marvel movies don't which to me doesn't mean anything at all as "themes" aren't a quantifiable quality but technically what you want to see or read in a movie.

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Old 11-28-2013, 01:38 AM   #815
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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They connected with too.

Those movies have flaws certainly. But they try to be something and I love that. When they get it wrong, it sucks. It's such a let down because the potential/ambition of these movies raises the hype to extreme levels. But when they get it right...they blow everything else outta the water.
I think it's clear that there's a difference in ambition.

The MCU films, and also Green Lantern, are going out of their way to play it safe and to not offend the mainstream. They don't make a point. Their plots are written like someone was checking off tick marks on an instruction manual, a storytelling for dummied guide.

Each of MoS, Watchmen, The Dark Knight trilogy (TDKT), and also Ang Lee's Hulk... is trying to tell a story with a point. They're all trying to do something new, they're swinging for the fences. You can fault the execution, but the intention is there.

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Old 11-28-2013, 01:42 AM   #816
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I think it's clear that there's a difference in ambition.

The MCU films, and also Green Lantern, are going out of their way to play it safe and to not offend the mainstream. They don't make a point. Their plots are written like someone was checking off tick marks on an instruction manual, a storytelling for dummied guide.

Each of MoS, Watchmen, The Dark Knight trilogy (TDKT), and also Ang Lee's Hulk... is trying to tell a story with a point. They're all trying to do something new, they're swinging for the fences. You can fault the execution, but the intention is there.
Oh, duh! I kept thinking it was a typo of TDKR, for some reason.

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Old 11-28-2013, 01:43 AM   #817
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

DC vs Marvel again?

Ah well. Let me just add my 2 cents. Both are extremely second rate with some good films on either side. But I find Marvel more tolerable.

But let me repeat, both are very mediocre.

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Old 11-28-2013, 01:52 AM   #818
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I think it's clear that there's a difference in ambition.

The MCU films, and also Green Lantern, are going out of their way to play it safe and to not offend the mainstream. They don't make a point. Their plots are written like someone was checking off tick marks on an instruction manual, a storytelling for dummied guide.

Each of MoS, Watchmen, The Dark Knight trilogy (TDKT), and also Ang Lee's Hulk... is trying to tell a story with a point. They're all trying to do something new, they're swinging for the fences. You can fault the execution, but the intention is there.
I agree. It's fascinating really. It's almost like the majority of CBMs have settled on a formula specifically tailored to mass produce CBMs that will guarantee a certain box office. Most of the time, the formula works. But then there's a few movies (MOS, Nolan Batfilms, watchmen, etc.) that don't fit in. They challenge the audience and provoke thought and I definitely think that's intentional.

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Old 11-28-2013, 02:04 AM   #819
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I agree. It's fascinating really. It's almost like the majority of CBMs have settled on a formula specifically tailored to mass produce CBMs that will guarantee a certain box office. Most of the time, the formula works. But then there's a few movies (MOS, Nolan Batfilms, watchmen, etc.) that don't fit in. They challenge the audience and provoke thought and I definitely think that's intentional.
Ironically, Marvel, for whom the fans are Goyer-bashers and DCU bashers, is simply copying Richard Donner's Superman and David Goyer's Blade over and over again. Those movies were fun ... the first time.

It is intentional, Zach Snyder explicitly said in one of his interviews that he wants his movies to be provocative, and that he (and I think Nolan) agreed that vanilla movies "don't stay with you" or something like that,

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Old 11-28-2013, 02:13 AM   #820
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Ironically, Marvel, for whom the fans are Goyer-bashers and DCU bashers, is simply copying Richard Donner's Superman and David Goyer's Blade over and over again. Those movies were fun ... the first time.
That's interesting. I see what you mean with Donner's Superman. But it's been some time since I've seen Blade. Will have to watch it again.

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It is intentional, Zach Snyder explicitly said in one of his interviews that he wants his movies to be provocative, and that he (and I think Nolan) agreed that vanilla movies "don't stay with you" or something like that,
Good. I hope they don't ever change. I have somewhat of a paranoia about DC going the Marvel route with the rest of their movies. I would rather have a failed attempt at a great movie than no attempt at greatness at all.


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Old 11-28-2013, 02:20 AM   #821
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I also fear that Snyder and Goyer will overcompensate for MOS's criticisms.

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Old 11-28-2013, 02:23 AM   #822
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

As do I. If they do look at any criticisms, I hope they put a lot of thought into what is actually a criticism and what is just "Wah, wah, It's not like the Donner films!"

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Old 11-28-2013, 05:59 AM   #823
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

See, this thread has nothing to do with the disguise

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Old 11-28-2013, 06:38 AM   #824
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I've given up Krumm...lol

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Old 11-28-2013, 06:42 AM   #825
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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And what are "professional" reviews? Is there a professional method to watching movies and writing an opinion in them? Are only some people qualified to do that? Are there qualifications? No there aren't. How do these people get to be reviewers? Is it because their opinion matters more than others?

Reviews are opinions. Not facts. There is no human being on this Earth who has found a way to keep all their biases in check at all times. It boggles my mind why people use reviews to justify and prove their opinion. I don't understand why people can't just say they don't like the movie. Why do they have to use the biased opinions of other humans to prove it?
They're usually journalists who have watched a lot of films to know what they're talking about, they usually have some kind of degree too.

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