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Old 11-28-2013, 06:46 AM   #826
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by FeedOnATreeFrog View Post
I had fun
For the record, so did I.

The whole experiance, every time I saw it in cinemas, was an emotional rollercoaster.

I've said before, one of the reasons I was so devestated is that it was so close to being a film I could truly love.

The problems I had with the plot and script, I'd have been much more forgiving of if I'd be happier with the overall story, presentation and messages of the film.

I LOVE the score. The film definitely felt epic and awe inspiring in places. The fight scenes were incredibly exciting and like nothing we've ever seen IMO. And it DID bring up emotion in me.

I don't HATE the film as a whole. I just... I hate that it wasn't better!

I hate that it so easily could have been better if they'd spent a bit more time on the script (and removed the clunky dialogue) and I hate some of the decisions they made about how to handle certain aspects of the characters.

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See, this thread has nothing to do with the disguise
It's difficult.

When Goyer admits he didn't really think something through, it opens him up to criticism about him not thinking things through across the board.

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Old 11-28-2013, 06:49 AM   #827
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

It's good of Goyer to acknowledge mistakes though. That is the first step to improving.

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Old 11-28-2013, 07:41 AM   #828
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

The iconic glasses disguise functions as a token for effective subterfuge. In reality, it may not be effective - but that’s what it represents according to the “internal rules” of this fictional universe. And the audience either agrees with these rules or they don’t.

But I think Goyer was referring to a separate problem (one which also faced the Smallville TV series). Even if you “drink the Kool-Aid” and accept that a pair of glasses is a bulletproof disguise, there’s a boatload of story that occurs before the disguise is ever deployed.

E.g… During MOS’s battle of Smallville, it would be reasonable to assume that at least some of the residents noted an uncanny resemblance between Superman and the Kent boy (who - as adult/Cavill - never wore glasses). And even if we allow that Lois was the only one smart enough to trace the “mysterious stranger” back to Smallville, the cat is out of the bag by the time the Kryptonians make the Kent farm the focus of their attentions. Along those same lines, Swanwick (and other higher-ups in the military) would seem to be fully aware of the relationship between Superman and Smallville (even if there’s a “trust” agreement not to pursue it). Finally, Goyer has suggested that Perry White (being a clever fellow) probably “knows” as well.

Bottom line: based on how MOS was constructed, there’s a whole mess of people who either know Supes’ Big Secret directly or who should be able to figure it out fairly easily. And presumably, this is the corner that Goyer admits to having painted himself into.

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It's good of Goyer to acknowledge mistakes though. That is the first step to improving.
He doesn’t say it was a “mistake,” though; he says it was a deliberate and calculated decision. Time will tell if it ends up being - in hindsight - a major problem.

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Old 11-28-2013, 08:00 AM   #829
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Man of Steel at least has one advantage over Smallville in regards to Clark not wearing glasses until Superman appeared: Clark Kent disappeared from Smallville about 10 years prior, and wasn't seen by anyone.

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Old 11-28-2013, 08:08 AM   #830
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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It's difficult.

When Goyer admits he didn't really think something through, it opens him up to criticism about him not thinking things through across the board.
He doesn't really need to think it through, no one really ever has before.

And as others have pointed out, the more you explain it the more attention you bring to it.

It sounds like his lack of planning is right on track.

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Old 11-28-2013, 08:10 AM   #831
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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The iconic glasses disguise functions as a token for effective subterfuge. In reality, it may not be effective - but that’s what it represents according to the “internal rules” of this fictional universe. And the audience either agrees with these rules or they don’t.

But I think Goyer was referring to a separate problem (one which also faced the Smallville TV series). Even if you “drink the Kool-Aid” and accept that a pair of glasses is a bulletproof disguise, there’s a boatload of story that occurs before the disguise is ever deployed.

E.g… During MOS’s battle of Smallville, it would be reasonable to assume that at least some of the residents noted an uncanny resemblance between Superman and the Kent boy (who - as adult/Cavill - never wore glasses). And even if we allow that Lois was the only one smart enough to trace the “mysterious stranger” back to Smallville, the cat is out of the bag by the time the Kryptonians make the Kent farm the focus of their attentions. Along those same lines, Swanwick (and other higher-ups in the military) would seem to be fully aware of the relationship between Superman and Smallville (even if there’s a “trust” agreement not to pursue it). Finally, Goyer has suggested that Perry White (being a clever fellow) probably “knows” as well.

Bottom line: based on how MOS was constructed, there’s a whole mess of people who either know Supes’ Big Secret directly or who should be able to figure it out fairly easily. And presumably, this is the corner that Goyer admits to having painted himself into.


He doesn’t say it was a “mistake,” though; he says it was a deliberate and calculated decision. Time will tell if it ends up being - in hindsight - a major problem.
This is one of the reasons why I liked how Superman Returns showed Clark Kent's childhood in Smallville, before the superpowers manifested themselves, he had to wear glasses.

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Old 11-28-2013, 08:22 AM   #832
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Man of Steel at least has one advantage over Smallville in regards to Clark not wearing glasses until Superman appeared: Clark Kent disappeared from Smallville about 10 years prior, and wasn't seen by anyone.
This is what I was thinking. I figured Clark became a nomad if you will shortly thereafter Jonathon's death. ( I thought his tombstone said he died either in 2000 or 2003) So between 10 and 13 years his face hasn't been shown around town.

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Old 11-28-2013, 08:55 AM   #833
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

It's funny, all the comments about the battle at the farm, and the obvious clues that point to Clark as a result, (all fair points, mind you,) yet this kind of thing has happened countless times in the books.

Not just fights occurring at the farm, but just Superman showing up there, in full costume, flying and all, and hugging the Kents.

Superman is quite friendly with Clark's parents, which is surprising, considering the number of times he's drawn crazy villains there, and destroyed the place.

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Old 11-28-2013, 08:56 AM   #834
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Slumcat, thanks for the welcome & the warning. I think I'll have better luck on the Batsuit thread Also, the Nolan films were huge successes, no doubt, so I understand why folks don't want to admit their flaws.

Regarding Marvel, I think the only film that got it truly right was Avengers. That *was* a comic book, in film form. It's virtually the only one that got it all the way right (and I think you might need to look as far back as Dick Tracy for the next best cbm). Iron Man 1 was super close to nuts-on as well, and was SO clearly an answer to all the doom & gloom of Batman Begins. I think the rest of the marvel movies, unfortunately, amount to pure marketing garbage... which in a way is also spot-on comic book stuff, but more like the advertisements =P

In general, Marvel gets the tone of its movies right... they treat it like fluff, but like fully-rendered fluff. I agree with whoever said they are a Quipfest, but when the rest of the world building is done right, with compelling villains (again, I only really felt that was the case in IM1 and Avengers), I think that there is a believably human palette on display. Ie. I believe the relationship between the characters and their world, especially the bigger-than-life characters in their world.

There were three believably human relationships in the DK trilogy though: the relationship between Joker/Batman (especially at the beginning, when Batman writes him off as "one man" vs. the whole crime syndicate, and this is only believable because Nolan's Batman was a mental midget in comparison to his comicbook counterpart), Batman and Gordon (in the first and third film), and Bruce & Alfred (specifically when Alfred hides the note from Bruce in TDK). All the other relationships in the film, between Bruce/Bats and ANYONE, and between ANYONE and everyone else, are completely cardboard. The Marvel approach is to have a believable rapport (even if a hammy/quippy one) between every character that might encounter one another. Even the Hulk/Loki/Thor gag at the end of the Avengers generates heat from the believable interactions between these unbelievable characters.

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Old 11-28-2013, 09:06 AM   #835
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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This is one of the reasons why I liked how Superman Returns showed Clark Kent's childhood in Smallville, before the superpowers manifested themselves, he had to wear glasses.
That might have helped… a bit. But the main issue was that Smallville/the Kent farm was a location that the alien invaders were especially interested in. Amidst the overall chaos, it’s plausible that the media didn’t know this or couldn’t fully investigate it; but after the fact, Smallville would be in the spotlight (justifiably so).

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Old 11-28-2013, 09:11 AM   #836
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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He doesn't really need to think it through, no one really ever has before.

And as others have pointed out, the more you explain it the more attention you bring to it.

It sounds like his lack of planning is right on track.
No that's exactly what I keep pointing out

If he'd said 'We looked at the 'problem' with the disguise and decided to just go with the 'wink wink, nudge nudge' approah rather than patronising the audience by trying to explain it in a real world way (for which there is no concrete explanation)'... No one would be criticizing his statement.

They might disagree, but they wouldn't be criticizing him in the way they are now for saying it.

It's just the attitude of 'Well we stuck the glasses bit at the end without really thinking about it... Ugh, dunno what we're gonna do with it really' that kind of bugs people.

Cause TBH, that's how I feel about a lot of what was included in the ending.

The neck snap and Lois hug, the bit with Swanwick in the desert, and the scene at the Daily Planet.

All seem to me like last minute alterations that they tacked on without really thinking about what would/should come next, how it fitted tonally, how it effected the plot of the rest of the film or any sequels etc...

They wanted to make a bold statement - so they had Superman forced to brutally kill Zod. They wanted a striking emotional visual - so they had Lois show up to comfort the devestated Supes. They wanted a slightly lighter ending that showed Superman was now going to be working as a hero and not an outlaw - so they stuck in the Swanwick scene, had it look as though trust had been built and included a little joke. They wanted the film to end on a note of familiarity after everything they had just done that shook up the character - so they quickly rushed to get 'Clark Kent and Lois Lane of the Daily Planet' in there in the last few seconds.

But it was just all so badly done. It was rushed, it was tacky, and it was tonally jarring.

You wanna make a statement? Make it.

Don't they try and go back on yourself like 'Oh, he's a totally different Superman... But hey don't worry, here he is at the Daily Planet with Lois and glasses just like you remember him, so please come see our next movie!'

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Old 11-28-2013, 09:46 AM   #837
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Slumcat, thanks for the welcome & the warning. I think I'll have better luck on the Batsuit thread Also, the Nolan films were huge successes, no doubt, so I understand why folks don't want to admit their flaws.

Regarding Marvel, I think the only film that got it truly right was Avengers. That *was* a comic book, in film form. It's virtually the only one that got it all the way right (and I think you might need to look as far back as Dick Tracy for the next best cbm). Iron Man 1 was super close to nuts-on as well, and was SO clearly an answer to all the doom & gloom of Batman Begins. I think the rest of the marvel movies, unfortunately, amount to pure marketing garbage... which in a way is also spot-on comic book stuff, but more like the advertisements =P

In general, Marvel gets the tone of its movies right... they treat it like fluff, but like fully-rendered fluff. I agree with whoever said they are a Quipfest, but when the rest of the world building is done right, with compelling villains (again, I only really felt that was the case in IM1 and Avengers), I think that there is a believably human palette on display. Ie. I believe the relationship between the characters and their world, especially the bigger-than-life characters in their world.

There were three believably human relationships in the DK trilogy though: the relationship between Joker/Batman (especially at the beginning, when Batman writes him off as "one man" vs. the whole crime syndicate, and this is only believable because Nolan's Batman was a mental midget in comparison to his comicbook counterpart), Batman and Gordon (in the first and third film), and Bruce & Alfred (specifically when Alfred hides the note from Bruce in TDK). All the other relationships in the film, between Bruce/Bats and ANYONE, and between ANYONE and everyone else, are completely cardboard.
Bruce Wayne, as portrayed in the Nolan films, has an IQ far north of 160.

Yet the diehard fanboys call him a "mental midget".

That says all we need to know about the anti-Nolan contrarians.

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The Marvel approach is to have a believable rapport (even if a hammy/quippy one) between every character that might encounter one another.
Because Peggy Carter falling in love with Steve Rogers the dweeb at the start of Captain America is believable.

Or not.

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Old 11-28-2013, 10:01 AM   #838
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Which kinda brings up the core issue: Man of Steel wasn't a very enjoyable movie. Naturally contrasted with the jovial upbeat feelgood Avengers and even the darkly humorous TDK trilogy, Man of Steel feels joyless and drab. Now people express that in any number of ways... perhaps they didn't love Clark as much as any of the characters of other superhero films because of character development? It's a guess, the truth is closer to saying they didn't enjoy the character development he was given while the more limited character development in Avengers was enjoyed, especially since it built on previous character development from other films. But the core issue is that it wasn't an enjoyable film for most people. It was epic, action packed, solid story, great actors... but very few people, if any, had fun in Man of Steel.
Opinion. I think lots of people had fun.

If people didn't have fun, it's probably because they were too hung up on things like "How does half of SMALLVILLE not recognize Clark Kent? How would that disguise ever work" Which suggests that people have little to no imagination. It's no wonder they don't find any joy in the concepts shown.

And is there a reason people can't watch a superhero movie without "contrasting" it to its polar opposite superhero films and endlessly comparing and ranking things?

So much hyperbole here of late. The comparisons to SCHINDLER'S LIST for instance, are absurd.

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Old 11-28-2013, 10:04 AM   #839
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Also, I don't understand why people are batting an eyelash over Supes killing Zod. This has been telegraphed to the DC fanbase since Batman Begins... one of the main premises of Nolan's half-baked trilogy (which admittedly has a delicious, gooey, purple/green molten center) is that Batman won't kill anyone.......... Yet he murders virtually the entire League of Shadows, including the thief who they were trying to get him to execute... He murders Dent (for exactly the same reason that Supes kills Zod)... and he'd be tried for murder for how Talia goes down as well.

For a series that will forever be remembered for the character who says "Why So Serious?" (itself a TERRIBLE line of dialogue)... the whole damn thing took itself wayyyyy too seriously.

And the legacy continues with everything that Goyer will touch.
That's all well and good, but that's down to Nolan and Jonah Nolan more than Goyer, who helped with the story, but didn't write the actual scripts. Goyer's legacy is BATMAN BEGINS. The dialogue in THE DARK KNIGHT and THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, even the storytelling, took an entirely different approach.

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Old 11-28-2013, 11:22 AM   #840
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Slumcat, thanks for the welcome & the warning. I think I'll have better luck on the Batsuit thread Also, the Nolan films were huge successes, no doubt, so I understand why folks don't want to admit their flaws.

Regarding Marvel, I think the only film that got it truly right was Avengers. That *was* a comic book, in film form. It's virtually the only one that got it all the way right (and I think you might need to look as far back as Dick Tracy for the next best cbm). Iron Man 1 was super close to nuts-on as well, and was SO clearly an answer to all the doom & gloom of Batman Begins. I think the rest of the marvel movies, unfortunately, amount to pure marketing garbage... which in a way is also spot-on comic book stuff, but more like the advertisements =P

In general, Marvel gets the tone of its movies right... they treat it like fluff, but like fully-rendered fluff. I agree with whoever said they are a Quipfest, but when the rest of the world building is done right, with compelling villains (again, I only really felt that was the case in IM1 and Avengers), I think that there is a believably human palette on display. Ie. I believe the relationship between the characters and their world, especially the bigger-than-life characters in their world.

There were three believably human relationships in the DK trilogy though: the relationship between Joker/Batman (especially at the beginning, when Batman writes him off as "one man" vs. the whole crime syndicate, and this is only believable because Nolan's Batman was a mental midget in comparison to his comicbook counterpart), Batman and Gordon (in the first and third film), and Bruce & Alfred (specifically when Alfred hides the note from Bruce in TDK). All the other relationships in the film, between Bruce/Bats and ANYONE, and between ANYONE and everyone else, are completely cardboard. The Marvel approach is to have a believable rapport (even if a hammy/quippy one) between every character that might encounter one another. Even the Hulk/Loki/Thor gag at the end of the Avengers generates heat from the believable interactions between these unbelievable characters.
I again agree with a lot of what you have said. Avengers is probably the only superhero film I truly love besides The Incredibles and the original Superman and Batman films.

I actually thing Avengers and Incredibles are kinda similar in a lot of ways, both are exuberant fantasies about the possibilities of superpowers and tell compelling stories in this world. The Incredibles for me remains the pinnacle of this genre, a film so breath-taking in its wit, so dazzling in its invention, that it transcends the genre to be an exceptionally clever film that can engage just about anybody.

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Old 11-28-2013, 11:26 AM   #841
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Seriously? You even bolded the most ridiculous part just for our benefit. Speak for yourself, lol.
Seriously. I enjoyed it quite a bit.
I suppose now someone is going to call me a fanboy or an apologist.

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Old 11-28-2013, 11:27 AM   #842
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Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
Bruce Wayne, as portrayed in the Nolan films, has an IQ far north of 160.

Yet the diehard fanboys call him a "mental midget".

That says all we need to know about the anti-Nolan contrarians.


Because Peggy Carter falling in love with Steve Rogers the dweeb at the start of Captain America is believable.

Or not.
I saw absolutely nothing intelligent about Bruce in the Nolan films. He never conveyed intelligence to me. I don't know what they say his IQ in the film is. But they could also say that Justin Timberlake's IQ in Runner Runner is 170 and it would just be the same right. They can say whatever they want in the film, they should be able to justify it through demonstration. I don't think the Nolan films did that at all.

And it is troubling that you would call people who don't like Nolan deliberate contrarians? It is akin to expressing shock that someone else does not like what you like. Which in turn shocks me.

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Old 11-28-2013, 11:30 AM   #843
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See, this thread has nothing to do with the disguise
As It was meant to be from the beginning, it's just a poorly disguised Snyder/Goyer/MOS bashing thread.

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Old 11-28-2013, 12:05 PM   #844
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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He doesn't really need to think it through, no one really ever has before.

And as others have pointed out, the more you explain it the more attention you bring to it.

It sounds like his lack of planning is right on track.
Not always. Look at TDKR, Nolan/Goyer didn't explain how Bruce was able to enter Gotham despite Bane's lockdown, and that was still called into attention.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

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Old 11-28-2013, 12:11 PM   #845
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Or "damned if you don't do it right".

EDIT: Never mind.


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Old 11-28-2013, 12:27 PM   #846
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

What do you mean by that?

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Old 11-28-2013, 12:38 PM   #847
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Not always. Look at TDKR, Nolan/Goyer didn't explain how Bruce was able to enter Gotham despite Bane's lockdown, and that was still called into attention.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
He's Batman, he's done a hell of a lot of unexplainable things.

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Old 11-28-2013, 12:43 PM   #848
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Some people like MOS. Some people don't. At some point these discussions have nothing to do with critical analysis but getting someone else to change their mind and agree with you.

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Old 11-28-2013, 12:48 PM   #849
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What do you mean by that?
Exactly what I said. If you're going to do something, you should do it right. I didn't think Bruce getting back to Gotham before the bomb went off was done right (i.e. it didn't make a lick of sense). I didn't think a lot of what MOS tried to do was done right (don't feel like getting into it).

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Some people like MOS. Some people don't. At some point these discussions have nothing to do with critical analysis but getting someone else to change their mind and agree with you.
Or people just need an excuse to **** on each other.

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Old 11-28-2013, 12:49 PM   #850
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And Happy Thanksgiving to all.

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