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Old 04-09-2016, 02:42 PM   #76
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

One thing I appreciated about Batman v Superman after seeing it and learning about this, was that Thomas Wayne did indeed try and punch Joe Chill in TDKR:
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I don't know why I never before had paid attention to such small detail, but I appreciate it nonetheless.

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Old 04-09-2016, 04:04 PM   #77
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

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Again, I don't say it breaks the film, it just makes it less accessible. You probably noticed already I'm one of the biggest defenders of this film on this board, so it's not really an attack on the film. It just a discussion about where it underperformed and how future movies can be improved.
Firstly I know and appreciate where you are coming from. I even said a less 'up in the air' film would yield different results with the GA. I'm however not talking about the GA, and I'm questioning if things simply make sense or they don't and how much work from me actually need be done to fill in the implications.
As for the matrix and mad max, like I said I've read and watched analysis that I wouldn't expect the audience even begin to grasp, however it boils down to if what they do grasp is enough to pull the film together. For example the matrix has alot of philosophy, particularly about in and out of the cave. Roadwarrior(not fury road) has alot of christian allegory to it "The meek shall inherit the earth" I remember in spray paint on a truck. But that's all metaphor. With those mad max movies you have the leads conflicting motivation, why he abandons people in need but doesn't but does, and how it stems from his own family and almost none of it is discussed outright. It's left to us. With matrix you have all that architect babble, you have why neo is the one when he really isn't, why the war even started, how powers even work in the matrix or don't, I could go on and on. My point however is that there is enough for everyone, subtext layers aside. It all still makes sense. I'd argue the same here.

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Yes, it's indeed there. But I saw the film for the first time, I was like "Huh? Why Batman?"...
I get why some people might need clarification. I simply argued that it's actually all right there. The why batman thing for instance, well if luthor told him to go get the flash' head, it would have been 'the flash' and not 'the batman'. At the very very bottom that much should suffice to answer the question of 'why batman'. It's funny cause sometimes those kinda questions lead to reviewing(sometimes). They did with me and inception anyways.

You asked how does clark know batman has beef with him? I don't recall how it's important to anything if clark knows. I get it why batman hating him is important with us the audience. But to answer your question, I remember batman offering up a very specific threat to superman during that exchange. Even without batman asserting it, superman should know he's pissing him off with his godly decree.

You asked how superman knew batman was being manipulated? Yes luthor told him, "a few photos, a few you let your family die was all it took to motivate..etc"

As for when did clark learn about bruces' resources. Well investigating the batman operation, one has to think after 20 years of protecting the city with wayne's finances that batman has resources and contacts. But I was actually referring to clark hearing bruce on the radio talking to one of his contacts. Clark, it would seem has none by comparison. So maybe they can 'pool their resources, and work together to find said missing person. At the outset it seems a better option than superman trying it alone apparently. Worth a shot.

hope that helps/makes sense.

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Agree, they need to try leave less stuff for interpretation. Martha stuff worked for me, I think it was really great. People skew the logic of the moment in their jokes, but I think it was great. The way they constructed redemption for Batman. Just brilliant, but I have to admit, I didn't buy the first time I saw the film. Only when I left the theater and started to put it all together, I began to appreciate it and fell in love with the whole idea on my 2nd and 3rd viewings.
Perhaps in time more and more people will come around. I recall a few films people(and critics) were overly hard on at the time or simply didn't get only to be seen more fondly in hindsight. I've already seen harsh critics turn, who knows.


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Old 04-09-2016, 06:55 PM   #78
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

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One thing I appreciated about Batman v Superman after seeing it and learning about this, was that Thomas Wayne did indeed try and punch Joe Chill in TDKR:

I don't know why I never before had paid attention to such small detail, but I appreciate it nonetheless.
And he attempts to assault the mugger in the original 1939 version, too. People can say it's dumb or whatever they like, but it's a completely authentic representation of the scene, lifted straight from the comics.

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Old 04-09-2016, 07:01 PM   #79
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

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And he attempts to assault the mugger in the original 1939 version, too. People can say it's dumb or whatever they like, but it's a completely authentic representation of the scene, lifted straight from the comics.
wait people have said it's dumb?

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Old 04-09-2016, 07:01 PM   #80
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

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wait people have said it's dumb?
Yes.

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Old 04-09-2016, 07:03 PM   #81
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

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wait people have said it's dumb?
Yes I love when people sight particular scenes as "not making sense" and being "flaws" just come to find out it was literally in the comics.

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Old 04-09-2016, 07:15 PM   #82
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Yes I love when people sight particular scenes as "not making sense" and being "flaws" just come to find out it was literally in the comics.
well to be fair, just because something is in source doesn't automatically make it 'good' or what not. I'm nothing if not consistent. Though knowing how people are I imagine this was probably coming from a the usual "it's different" angle. To which point it is kinda ironic given it was in DKR and Snyder did wave that book around since day one.

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Yes.
That's a shame.
I personally love that particular angle/take. It really shines a light on the helpless theme. That they tried to stop it and still nothing. As opposed to like nolans Ducard said, the will to act not even being present leading to doubt that they stood by and let it happen. Which has it's positives to be sure. I also find this approach less contrived, my teacher always said it takes alot to get reasonable people to kill. In this exchange there is some great causality at work.
However that either approach is dumb, no beuno.

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Old 04-09-2016, 07:49 PM   #83
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

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You asked how does clark know batman has beef with him? I don't recall how it's important to anything if clark knows.
I kinda felt that when Superman says "I'll try to convince him to help me or I will have to kill him", it really felt like it's a challenge for Superman, like they're already have a very deep feud and pulling Batman on his side is very hard. But the film didn't do a very good job showing that Clark knows how Batman feels towards him. There was a scene on the Batmobile, where, probably, they had a longer conversation with accusations... Snyder felt it didn't work for some reason, it looked silly or something, and he reduced it to a couple one-liners. But I wish there was a scene, where Clark truly learns that Batman wants him dead or gone.
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I get it why batman hating him is important with us the audience. But to answer your question, I remember batman offering up a very specific threat to superman during that exchange. Even without batman asserting it, superman should know he's pissing him off with his godly decree.
I get that, but it wasn't clear enough. It felt like Batman is angry at Superman for ruining his car. Instead of knowing that Batman is pissed by Superman's existence. Yes, Superman has super-hearing and it's likely he heard "you will" as well. It doesn't break the film, but I feel it's one of those moments, where they needed to show it in a more explicit way.
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You asked how superman knew batman was being manipulated? Yes luthor told him, "a few photos, a few you let your family die was all it took to motivate..etc"
Yeah, I recalled that. Thanks.

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As for when did clark learn about bruces' resources. Well investigating the batman operation, one has to think after 20 years of protecting the city with wayne's finances that batman has resources and contacts. But I was actually referring to clark hearing bruce on the radio talking to one of his contacts. Clark, it would seem has none by comparison. So maybe they can 'pool their resources, and work together to find said missing person. At the outset it seems a better option than superman trying it alone apparently. Worth a shot.
You mean Bruce talking to Alfred? By the way, I wish there was more exposition on how Clark investigated Batman. He got a glimpse of conversation between Bruce and Alfred, but then he was interrupted by the incident in Mexico. It would be really cool to see Clark going to Gotham and search for more clues on his theory about Bruce Wayne being Batman. It would be really cool to show how Clark sees Batman and uses his vision to see behind the mask, unless he figured it out earlier.

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Old 04-09-2016, 07:58 PM   #84
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

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You mean Bruce talking to Alfred? By the way, I wish there was more exposition on how Clark investigated Batman. He got a glimpse of conversation between Bruce and Alfred, but then he was interrupted by the incident in Mexico. It would be really cool to see Clark going to Gotham and search for more clues on his theory about Bruce Wayne being Batman. It would be really cool to show how Clark sees Batman and uses his vision to see behind the mask, unless he figured it out earlier.
Deborah Snyder confirmed there was a scene of Clark going to Gotham to investigate Batman that had a lot of info and she was upset it was cut. I'm assuming it'll be in the Ultimate Cut

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Old 04-09-2016, 08:01 PM   #85
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

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Deborah Snyder confirmed there was a scene of Clark going to Gotham to investigate Batman that had a lot of info and she was upset it was cut. I'm assuming it'll be in the Ultimate Cut
Can't wait to see this stuff.

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Old 04-09-2016, 08:04 PM   #86
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

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Deborah Snyder confirmed there was a scene of Clark going to Gotham to investigate Batman that had a lot of info and she was upset it was cut. I'm assuming it'll be in the Ultimate Cut
Damn, what the hell...

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Old 04-09-2016, 08:06 PM   #87
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

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Damn, what the hell...
That goes back to the set photos as well of Clark at Gotham PD

I so need this Ultimate Cut asap

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Old 04-09-2016, 09:59 PM   #88
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

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Deborah Snyder confirmed there was a scene of Clark going to Gotham to investigate Batman that had a lot of info and she was upset it was cut. I'm assuming it'll be in the Ultimate Cut
THIS is the s=÷ that pi!/ssess me off for some reason. Not the finished product, but the stuff that got left out on the cutting room floor. This is what the movie should of had more of from the get-go. There was some Bruce Wayne nightmares, like the Bat popping out of Martha Waynes tomb that could have been replaced with something like Clark Kent investigating the Batman. We needed more of that to give more suspense and tension to their conflicts. The dinner party scene was great and fun. I'm sure the Clark Kent investigations would have been too.

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Old 04-09-2016, 10:12 PM   #89
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

I dug the film. It was about as good as I thought it'd be. 3 out of 5 stars.

...Not that anyone would remember me, lol.

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Old 04-09-2016, 10:15 PM   #90
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

Found this posted on Facebook and thought I would share it here.

"In the opening scene of the movie, we see Bruce Wayne and his parents leaving the Aragon Theater after seeing "The Mark of Zorro." It is not by accident that they have just seen this particular film. In the 1940 film, Zorro, who's real identity is Don Diego Vega, is a man who seeks to rectify the injustices in his community by fighting crime while dressing in all black and wearing a mask. He brands his victims on their face with a "Z," leaving a mark that will permanently remind them and others of the mysterious threat in the shadows of their society. The symmetry between Zorro and Batman is a beautiful and deeply impactful entrance into this story filled with conflicts of justice, morality, and sacrifice.

The side of the marquee reads "Excalibur," revealing that this new film will be "coming soon" to the theater. The 1981 film tells the story of King Arthur as he pulls the sword Excalibur from a stone, becomes a king while only just a boy, and later faces a war with his friend Lancelot. Arthur and Lancelot reconcile in the end, and join to fight Mordred, a traitor to Arthur. In the final battle, Mordred stabs Arthur with a spear; but Arthur further impales himself to get closer and kills Mordred with Excalibur. This sacrifice by Arthur proves to be ultimately fatal. Yet again, we get a subtle allusion to the story of Batman and Superman, this time to what lies ahead rather than what is in the past."

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Old 04-09-2016, 10:20 PM   #91
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

Interesting.

On a connected note, I would like to add my two cents: I need the Ultimate Cut, too. Now!

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Old 04-10-2016, 01:32 AM   #92
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

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wait people have said it's dumb?
Yeah they're blaming Thomas.

Also cool to point out this was also the very 1st origin of Batman:



Makes sense for Miller to stay true to the original comics.

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Old 04-10-2016, 03:00 AM   #93
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

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Found this posted on Facebook and thought I would share it here.

"In the opening scene of the movie, we see Bruce Wayne and his parents leaving the Aragon Theater after seeing "The Mark of Zorro." It is not by accident that they have just seen this particular film. In the 1940 film, Zorro, who's real identity is Don Diego Vega, is a man who seeks to rectify the injustices in his community by fighting crime while dressing in all black and wearing a mask. He brands his victims on their face with a "Z," leaving a mark that will permanently remind them and others of the mysterious threat in the shadows of their society. The symmetry between Zorro and Batman is a beautiful and deeply impactful entrance into this story filled with conflicts of justice, morality, and sacrifice.

The side of the marquee reads "Excalibur," revealing that this new film will be "coming soon" to the theater. The 1981 film tells the story of King Arthur as he pulls the sword Excalibur from a stone, becomes a king while only just a boy, and later faces a war with his friend Lancelot. Arthur and Lancelot reconcile in the end, and join to fight Mordred, a traitor to Arthur. In the final battle, Mordred stabs Arthur with a spear; but Arthur further impales himself to get closer and kills Mordred with Excalibur. This sacrifice by Arthur proves to be ultimately fatal. Yet again, we get a subtle allusion to the story of Batman and Superman, this time to what lies ahead rather than what is in the past."
People can not tell me that Zack Snyder doesn't know what the hell he's doing from a storytelling perspective. Seen this film six times and I didn't even pick up the meaning behind this, even though I noticed the marquee.

I will forever remain flabbergasted by the critical reception to this film.

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Old 04-10-2016, 03:19 AM   #94
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

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Deborah Snyder confirmed there was a scene of Clark going to Gotham to investigate Batman that had a lot of info and she was upset it was cut. I'm assuming it'll be in the Ultimate Cut
Being huge Clark/Superman fan I'm just stoked as hell to see this scene of my hero doing his very own detective work against the batman

Thank God Deborah is Zach's wife cause she will make him put that in there, which I'm sure he would have anyway

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Old 04-10-2016, 04:11 AM   #95
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

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People can not tell me that Zack Snyder doesn't know what the hell he's doing from a storytelling perspective. Seen this film six times and I didn't even pick up the meaning behind this, even though I noticed the marquee.

I will forever remain flabbergasted by the critical reception to this film.
To be fair, clever visual metaphors and stuff on Snyder's part are nowhere near as important as a good main story.

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Old 04-10-2016, 04:21 AM   #96
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

Love the part where Supes catches Doomsday's fist, immediately after the creature is born. Awesome visual, and he's saving Lex even though the guy is a murderous, crazed loon.

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Old 04-10-2016, 04:33 AM   #97
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Love the part where Supes catches Doomsday's fist, immediately after the creature is born. Awesome visual, and he's saving Lex even though the guy is a murderous, crazed loon.
Yeah, that was intense. I don't feel too strongly for or against having Doomsday in this movie, but that shot sort of instantly got me on board. I liked how 'manic' Snyder made Doomsday.

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Old 04-10-2016, 05:51 AM   #98
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

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And he attempts to assault the mugger in the original 1939 version, too. People can say it's dumb or whatever they like, but it's a completely authentic representation of the scene, lifted straight from the comics.
I really don't get why people claim that scene is dumb. I didn't know it was faithful to the comics as beyond the movies and his appearances in Superman comics, I am not a big Batman guy. But even during the scene I thought Thomas felt this guy was going to shoot them anyway, so that's why he attacked, as he thought there was a chance he could save his family so he took it. I didn't think it was dumb at all

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People can not tell me that Zack Snyder doesn't know what the hell he's doing from a storytelling perspective. Seen this film six times and I didn't even pick up the meaning behind this, even though I noticed the marquee.

I will forever remain flabbergasted by the critical reception to this film.
Same here, I didn't even catch the Zorro or Excalibur references either, I think that's all really smart stuff and makes me look forward to my 2nd viewing even more. Dumb directors, which Snyder has been labelled, even more so now, don't do things like that.

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Love the part where Supes catches Doomsday's fist, immediately after the creature is born. Awesome visual, and he's saving Lex even though the guy is a murderous, crazed loon.
That's why I cannot get behind people saying this version of Superman is not faithful or 'not their Superman'. After everything Lex had done to him, some of it really low horrible stuff, Superman still saved Lex's life and jumped into protect him when he was in danger. That was SUCH a Superman moment.

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Old 04-10-2016, 07:06 AM   #99
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

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To be fair, clever visual metaphors and stuff on Snyder's part are nowhere near as important as a good main story.
I thought the main story was excellent, and the fact that the two films on the theatre marquee not only parallel the events and characters of the film, but also represent the past (Mark of Zorro parallels Batman's carreer) and the future (Excalibur parallels the events of the films plot) and since the opening of Batman V Superman is Bruce's nightmare of the night his parents were murdered, cleverly Mark of Zorro is currently playing (Batman's career is currently occuring) and coming soon is Excalibur (the events of the movie that mirror those of Excalibur are coming soon). This film is filled with metatextual content. The character's motivations and opinions on Superman are commentaries on the criticism both the character of Superman and the previous film have received. The appearance of the Flash to warn Bruce (post credit teaser style) in which he questions if he's "Too soon" may or may not be a metatextual reference to the positioning of the scene in the film itself. In terms of looking at Flash's arrival as a teaser to Justice League he literally is "Too soon" in the film, which is why I love the placement of that scene in the middle of the film. He's also too soon in the literal sense within the context of the films plot. He is speaking to Bruce about events that have no context to Bruce yet, but they will. Loved that.

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Old 04-10-2016, 07:09 AM   #100
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Default Re: New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!) - Part 1

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I really don't get why people claim that scene is dumb. I didn't know it was faithful to the comics as beyond the movies and his appearances in Superman comics, I am not a big Batman guy. But even during the scene I thought Thomas felt this guy was going to shoot them anyway, so that's why he attacked, as he thought there was a chance he could save his family so he took it. I didn't think it was dumb at all



Same here, I didn't even catch the Zorro or Excalibur references either, I think that's all really smart stuff and makes me look forward to my 2nd viewing even more. Dumb directors, which Snyder has been labelled, even more so now, don't do things like that.



That's why I cannot get behind people saying this version of Superman is not faithful or 'not their Superman'. After everything Lex had done to him, some of it really low horrible stuff, Superman still saved Lex's life and jumped into protect him when he was in danger. That was SUCH a Superman moment.
right? I love hearing "Snyder doesn't understand Superman" but he saved Lex. and then I hear things like "Why didn't Superman give the spear to WW to kill DD with? That doesnt' make sense, poorly written scene" Yeah because Superman would ever do that right?

This movie to me was everything I wanted it to be and more. I just hope WB doesn't get too nervous and started intervening too much in JL. Obviously I would love these movies to be more acclaimed, and I am completely flabbergasted as to how they aren't, but on the flip side, theres been so much planning going into this entire universe it would not be a good situation for the the studio to meddle to much no matter how you look at it

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