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View Poll Results: What is the best superhero film ever? (in alphabetical order)
The Avengers 8 8.70%
Avengers: Infinity War 19 20.65%
Batman (1989) 1 1.09%
Batman Begins 1 1.09%
Black Panther 0 0%
Captain America: The Winter Soldier 3 3.26%
Captain America: Civil War 1 1.09%
The Dark Knight 44 47.83%
Deadpool 0 0%
Guardians of the Galaxy 1 1.09%
Iron Man 0 0%
Logan 0 0%
Spider-Man 1 1.09%
Spider-Man 2 4 4.35%
Spider-Man: Homecoming 0 0%
Superman: The Movie 4 4.35%
Thor: Ragnarok 0 0%
Wonder Woman 0 0%
X2: X-Men United 0 0%
X-Men: Days of Future Past 2 2.17%
X-Men: First Class 0 0%
Other (please name in thread) 3 3.26%
Voters: 92. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-11-2018, 03:04 PM   #101
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Default Re: Best Superhero Film of All-Time (with new Poll)

Truth is I can personally think of a ton of movies that are better than the Black Panther, even within the MCU, and I believe that any achievements the movie has are almost entirely about symbols and social commentary of a sort, rather than actual cinematic ones. I can understand some of the appeal and while I don't think is a bad movie by any means, I do find it extremely formulaic and run of the mill.
In any case, I agree about pretty much everything else you said.

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Old 05-11-2018, 07:42 PM   #102
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Truth is I can personally think of a ton of movies that are better than the Black Panther, even within the MCU, and I believe that any achievements the movie has are almost entirely about symbols and social commentary of a sort, rather than actual cinematic ones. I can understand some of the appeal and while I don't think is a bad movie by any means, I do find it extremely formulaic and run of the mill.
In any case, I agree about pretty much everything else you said.
See and this is where i'd jump in out of nowhere like..."But it DID get nominated though!"

And you'd say. 'Only because of SJW's."

And I'd still just say."But did it get nominated though...?"

I'd be unstoppable. It would be like wielding the infinity gauntlet.

Will it happen? Probably not. But if it does... WHOA boy!

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Old 05-11-2018, 10:56 PM   #103
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Yes, tell me when they get nominated for major Oscars (Logan is the only one that has since) and when years and years later, critics and Hollywood industry insiders are ranking them among the Top 100 Hollywood films ever made.

That will never happen.


Funny how come more movies have done better with the General Audiences than TDK... Quality is subjective. Not every critic ranks TDK higher than every other CB movie they have seen and as can be seen from the Tomatometer, there have been CB movies that got better reception from the critics than TDK but sure, whatever works for you..

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Old 05-11-2018, 10:57 PM   #104
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You asked that who said TDK was a legit Best Picture snub so I pointed it out for you. What are you talking about ?
I suppose the rhetoric was lost on you. Sorry about that.

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Old 05-11-2018, 11:15 PM   #105
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To give you a less pedantic answer: Nolan did do things that no one other than James Mangold has really attempted. He didn't treat it as a "superhero movie" in the sense that it has to be self-effacing or self-aware of its own slightness and formulae. Nolan treated it as a resource of genuine drama and used these icons of American pop culture to say something about real American culture in 2008 in a way that no superhero movie has attempted (at least successfully) other than to far lesser extents the other two-thirds of TDKT.

The film works as a strong parable for the fear and paranoia of the Bush Years and post-9/11 War on Terror, which many cite as at least the initial reason superhero escapism became so popular in the 2000s... a respite from the horror and dread of helplessness. But The Dark Knight directly addressed that and personified the chaos we all felt at the time--leading to some monstrously bad decisions--in the Joker, who had a tour de force performance from Heath Ledger.

The Dark Knight plays as well as a crime drama epic as it does a superhero movie. Logan plays as well as a modern day gritty Western as it does a superhero movie, it's the only one who has striven for that level of artistry. The MCU movies are by design never going to reach for that, because they don't want it. It requires too much ambition and artistic precision, and risks upsetting the "house style." They prefer a straight down the middle adventure that is always somewhat self-satirical, because by confessing it is silly, they are also allowing the audience to be less invested in the drama or stakes of the piece, which means they don't have to aim as high. Because it is easier to hit a single than a home run, and if you try to make a dramatic or epic superhero film but lack the skill of someone like Nolan, you wind up with something as pretentious and unappealing as Man of Steel and Batman v Superman.

So yeah, studios even more demure that ambition, so there is no risk of anyone producing something surpassing TDK.

Lol, I like how you seem to think your opinion is fact. Iron Man showed post NY USA as well as TDK did and just because the socio-political commentary was in throwaway lines and subtextual plot points does not mean they were not here. I mean, CW and WS did as a great job as TDK without needing to go off the rails of the MCU. You seem to rate the type of story TDK tells as a greater thing but I feel doing what the MCU does, being balanced while still nailing the concepts that are relevant socially is a greater thing.

But here is the thing, I actually think its much easier to tell a story with contemporary context and events paralleled within the movie. Its MUCH MUCH harder to tell a story like Infinity War and make it work within a movie. Within the regular cinematic elements, I feel IW, TDK, CW and Avengers are all within the same ballpark but IW does something so so much more ambitious than set a story within a realistic environment. And IW finds a way to still show off parallels to real world and concepts and the biggest of all, make it all work as a single freakin' movie. Its just a MUCH greater achievement if you are talking cinematically, and also a better movie to watch because of it all.


Put it this way, I understand why TDK rates where it does with the die-hards but its not some universal truth that it does something greater than any other CB movie does. And even if you are talking critically, there have been movies that have gotten better reception than TDK.

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Old 05-11-2018, 11:54 PM   #106
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With a significant amount of buzz from the studio, I can see Black Panther get a Best Picture nod. I mean, Get Out and The Shape of Water are 2 genre film and they dominated the 2018 Oscar.


About TDK, it's only behind SpiderMan 2 in Metacritic (82 vs 83). it ****s on every other CBMs when it comes to critics' ratings. And it beats every CBMs on nearly every forum's polls.

I dont know why people claim that only die-hard fans rate TDK far above any other CBMs. The critics, the film industry and the audiences on ImDB and RT also have the same claim.

I mean using the same logic, we can say that Infinity War is better than Fury Road, Three Billboards, Brokeback Mountain, Forrest Gump,etc. but the fact is that it isn't. Not even close.


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Old 05-12-2018, 01:02 AM   #107
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With a significant amount of buzz from the studio, I can see Black Panther get a Best Picture nod. I mean, Get Out and The Shape of Water are 2 genre film and they dominated the 2018 Oscar.


About TDK, it's only behind SpiderMan 2 in Metacritic (82 vs 83). it ****s on every other CBMs when it comes to critics' ratings. And it beats every CBMs on nearly every forum's polls.

I dont know why people claim that only die-hard fans rate TDK far above any other CBMs. The critics, the film industry and the audiences on ImDB and RT also have the same claim.

I mean using the same logic, we can say that Infinity War is better than Fury Road, Three Billboards, Brokeback Mountain, Forrest Gump,etc. but the fact is that it isn't. Not even close.


In your opinion. Films are extremely subjective and no one person is really an expert on anything. You may think all that but you are completely wrong to think it is a fact. It isn't. Not even close.


And, you and I seem to have different definitions of "die hard fans". I am not suggesting that only TDK fans like TDK. Loads of people love TDK but they are all film buffs. The kind who vote in these exercises. I will say Academy awards panels did not like TDK as much as some of you wanna portray it, but that is all just he says, she says right now. My point is critically, there have been better received CB movies and GA reception wise, there have been better received movies. It's really simple once you get over this wrong idea that you know better than others on a topic.

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Old 05-12-2018, 01:16 AM   #108
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I know better ? I never said that.

Yeah film judging is subjective. But TDK is the the most critical aclaimed of all CBMs, receives the best reception from both audiences and critics. That's a fact.

And I'm not saying that TDK is the best CBM, because that's just my opinion. TDK is the best received CBM, that's a fact.


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Old 05-12-2018, 01:17 AM   #109
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I mean, films like Empire Strikes Back are considered as good or superior to TDK, and they're over the top.

Logan is arguably almost as grounded and gritty as TDK, and it has zero votes in this thread, compared to IW.
ESB is not over the top. It's the first sequel to a series with 3 main characters and introduces a couple of new characters. It just continues the story of Star Wars which happens to be a big fantasy story set across the galaxy. Not a crazy crossover event that makes some people roll their eyes at the very thought, regardless of execution. IW’s cast list is an absolute joke. It’s the 19th film in a series that only started 10 years ago and includes nearly every hero character from all the films.

Being an epic sci-fi or fantasy like Lord of the Rings doesn't make you over the top. Doing Star Wars Vs Star Trek would be over the top. Avengers was like Alien V Predator. IW is like Alien v Predator v Terminator v Robocop. It is not as easy getting people to respect what you’re doing when you’re trying something like this.

Logan has no votes exactly because of TDK's existence and place in this poll. Being cut from the same cloth but with TDK having a slight edge means the majority of its votes are going to go to TDK. It's like having TDK and TDK x 0.9 in the same poll against an average film in a different genre. Even though nearly everyone is going to prefer TDK x 0.9 there's no point voting for it when TDK is available while there will always be a few who vote for the different product. That won't happen in a Logan vs IW poll where it will be sure to rack up its fair share.

Something like Schindler’s List would not have to worry about this reversion to outlandish when being compared to TDK, and may even have an advantage due to no one wearing a cape.

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Old 05-12-2018, 01:22 AM   #110
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I know better ? I never said that.

Yeah film judging is subjective. But TDK is the the most critical aclaimed of all CBMs, receives the best reception from both audiences and critics. That's a fact.

And I'm not saying that TDK is the best CBM, because that's just my opinion. TDK is the best received CBM, that's a fact.

Based on what, again? Going by the fairest critical reception tracker, BP has a better critic reception than TDK and Iron Man has the same level. And for the GA, BO receipts tell the story.

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Old 05-12-2018, 01:27 AM   #111
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Default Re: Best Superhero Film of All-Time (with new Poll)

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Based on what, again? Going by the fairest critical reception tracker, BP has a better critic reception than TDK and Iron Man has the same level. And for the GA, BO receipts tell the story.
Based on logic and fact. Critic opinions is just that; critic opinions. What makes their word hold the most value, or the most fair? You have no kind of weighty stats from any kind of consensus to back you up. You're clinging to critics on the tomatometer.

And as for BO, if you think BO receipts tell the story of what movie is more beloved to an audience, then you're so far removed from reality on this. Or to repeat, are you sitting there trying to argue movies like Transformers and Suicide Squad are more beloved than most of the MCU?

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Old 05-12-2018, 01:42 AM   #112
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Default Re: Best Superhero Film of All-Time (with new Poll)

The Dark Knight, and I doubt it'll ever be equaled let alone surpassed.

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Old 05-12-2018, 02:34 AM   #113
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Based on logic and fact. Critic opinions is just that; critic opinions. What makes their word hold the most value, or the most fair? You have no kind of weighty stats from any kind of consensus to back you up. You're clinging to critics on the tomatometer.

And as for BO, if you think BO receipts tell the story of what movie is more beloved to an audience, then you're so far removed from reality on this. Or to repeat, are you sitting there trying to argue movies like Transformers and Suicide Squad are more beloved than most of the MCU?


They appealed more to a worldwide audience than some of the MCU movies, sure. And honestly, Suicide Squad did not do better than "most" of the MCU anyways. But there is neither logic nor fact in your argument here. Yes, it is beloved by die-hard fans, or to put it in a better context, film buffs. But the are not representative of the General Audience. And when talking about critical reception, what exactly are we supposed to consider if not critics' opinions?

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Old 05-12-2018, 05:34 AM   #114
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Completely agree with this. While films like Logan and TDK are terrific, they are barely superhero flicks. Any flick that embraces the genre will always be slighted by those who find the source material silly and prefers movies that ("sniff") transcend the genre. TDK and Logan are great films, especially for those who don't particularly care for superhero films.
No, they are as much superhero flicks as Infinity War... they just go about things differently. Superhero movies do not necessarily have to be CGI heavy punchfests with a lot of outlandish content. That's just one way of doing things. Yes, it's the predominant way of doing things, but to say TDK or Logan aren't superhero movies, is like saying Arkham Asylum isn't a superhero graphic novel.

Guess what? If Batman's in it, it's a superhero movie. As much as Infinity War, or any other superhero movie of the past thirty or forty years.

TDK is just a better superhero movie than any of the others. And yes, people who don't care for superhero movies also love it. That's why it's at the top of the list every single time.

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Old 05-12-2018, 06:55 AM   #115
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No, they are as much superhero flicks as Infinity War... they just go about things differently. Superhero movies do not necessarily have to be CGI heavy punchfests with a lot of outlandish content. That's just one way of doing things. Yes, it's the predominant way of doing things, but to say TDK or Logan aren't superhero movies, is like saying Arkham Asylum isn't a superhero graphic novel.

Guess what? If Batman's in it, it's a superhero movie. As much as Infinity War, or any other superhero movie of the past thirty or forty years.

TDK is just a better superhero movie than any of the others. And yes, people who don't care for superhero movies also love it. That's why it's at the top of the list every single time.
Couldn’t agree more with this post.

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Old 05-12-2018, 07:09 AM   #116
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No, they are as much superhero flicks as Infinity War... they just go about things differently. Superhero movies do not necessarily have to be CGI heavy punchfests with a lot of outlandish content. That's just one way of doing things. Yes, it's the predominant way of doing things, but to say TDK or Logan aren't superhero movies, is like saying Arkham Asylum isn't a superhero graphic novel.

Guess what? If Batman's in it, it's a superhero movie. As much as Infinity War, or any other superhero movie of the past thirty or forty years.

TDK is just a better superhero movie than any of the others. And yes, people who don't care for superhero movies also love it. That's why it's at the top of the list every single time.
Preach

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Old 05-12-2018, 10:24 AM   #117
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Funny how come more movies have done better with the General Audiences than TDK... Quality is subjective. Not every critic ranks TDK higher than every other CB movie they have seen and as can be seen from the Tomatometer, there have been CB movies that got better reception from the critics than TDK but sure, whatever works for you..
Why do you think the general audience likes Marvel movies more than TDK? This is hard to gauge, and box office is a poor way of doing it. But I will say the general audience and critics alike still use terms like "The best superhero movie since The Dark Knight." (I saw critics write this about Logan). Or I have since seen critics, rather unconvincingly write, "Infinity War is Marvel's The Dark Knight."

The fact that the critical community, as a way of reaching out to audiences, is always measuring newer superhero movies to The Dark Knight shows its high esteem in critical thought and audience memory. Rotten Tomatoes scores are an aggregate of "good/bad." Many of the good reviews for most superhero movies are "that was fun." Not "that was amazing."

Meanwhile the BBC polled an international collection of film critics to rank the top 100 American movies ever made. The Dark Knight was on the list. It was the only superhero movie on that list. And no, I don't think Infinity War has a shot in hell of ever having that level of admiration years from now.

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Old 05-12-2018, 10:35 AM   #118
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Lol, I like how you seem to think your opinion is fact. Iron Man showed post NY USA as well as TDK did and just because the socio-political commentary was in throwaway lines and subtextual plot points does not mean they were not here. I mean, CW and WS did as a great job as TDK without needing to go off the rails of the MCU. You seem to rate the type of story TDK tells as a greater thing but I feel doing what the MCU does, being balanced while still nailing the concepts that are relevant socially is a greater thing.

But here is the thing, I actually think its much easier to tell a story with contemporary context and events paralleled within the movie. Its MUCH MUCH harder to tell a story like Infinity War and make it work within a movie. Within the regular cinematic elements, I feel IW, TDK, CW and Avengers are all within the same ballpark but IW does something so so much more ambitious than set a story within a realistic environment. And IW finds a way to still show off parallels to real world and concepts and the biggest of all, make it all work as a single freakin' movie. Its just a MUCH greater achievement if you are talking cinematically, and also a better movie to watch because of it all.


Put it this way, I understand why TDK rates where it does with the die-hards but its not some universal truth that it does something greater than any other CB movie does. And even if you are talking critically, there have been movies that have gotten better reception than TDK.
Well clearly everything I write here is my opinion unless I'm referencing some empirical data (or an article like in the previous post). It is that old editorial mindset of writing, I suppose, it just reads better if you don't keep writing "I think" or "in my opinion."

But to do that for a moment, I do strongly disagree Civil War or TWS, and especially Iron Man (which I love) have any deep social or political commentary. TWS kind of does, but it undercuts itself. Rather than having a "good man" like Pierce having his good intentions lead him to authoritarianism--kind of like say, Harvey Dent's tragic descent into madness and hell--he is part of a secret cult originally derived from the Third Reich. It just smacks of hollow and would seem to suggest that America has no culpability. It's them who we can take out. And for all of Civil War's vague kind of philosophical argument about the role of regulation, it is pretty much jettisoned inside of a minute in Infinity War. Tony after 45 seconds of hesitation is about to call Cap, and Rhodey, who in the last movie was proud of sacrificing his leg for what he thought was right, nonchalantly flips the metaphorical bird to Sec. Ross and cracks jokes about a court martial. The "thematic" subtext in the Marvel movies is always only window dressing.

As for Infinity War, I don't think it really is some kind of historic achievement unto itself. The fact that Marvel got here with about 20 movies in 10 years and had this huge crossover is a commercial and technical achievement. A marvel really. So as with much of the MCU, it is the WHOLE that is impressive of what they built.

Unto itself Infinity War is a much weaker movie than the first Avengers and Civil War, IMO. Other than Thanos and Gamora, no character really gets enough screen time, there are no arcs, and much of it is just flash-bang spectacle. It is the spectacle of seeing these characters interact, and it is the spectacle of the action. But as a story it is so crowded and thin that it reminds me of those 1970s star-studded epics like The Towering Inferno or Earthquake or (the best of the lot) The Poseidon Adventure. Movies with a ton of characters and part of the buying price is seeing all these faces together in an "epic." Even if the story is a bit thin... and in Infinity War's case incomplete as it ends on a cliffhanger.


The Dark Knight transcends genre. While it is not nearly as good as Star Wars: A New Hope or The Godfather (two very different movies unto themselves), like those movies, it breaks out of its labels, as those did from "sci-fi" and "gangster." It is an achievement in cinematic storytelling that has been celebrated a decade onward and will continue to be for more decades to come. I mean it's impossible to guess, but I suspect in a few years, people will look back at Infinity War and whatever Avengers 4 is called and go, "You know, it really should have just been one movie."

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Old 05-12-2018, 10:47 AM   #119
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They appealed more to a worldwide audience than some of the MCU movies, sure. And honestly, Suicide Squad did not do better than "most" of the MCU anyways. But there is neither logic nor fact in your argument here. Yes, it is beloved by die-hard fans, or to put it in a better context, film buffs. But the are not representative of the General Audience. And when talking about critical reception, what exactly are we supposed to consider if not critics' opinions?
By appealed you mean what exactly? They were able to entice more bums in seats, or are you saying if the general audience was polled about their favorite movies, the likes of Transformers and SS would be out ranking most of the MCU?

What is representative of a general audience to you? Because I don't see you offering up any statistics to back up your beliefs here. What about casual people who purchase Empire magazine? They ask their readers every few years to vote for their top 100 movies. They gets votes in the thousands. Every time TDK makes the top 5. In fact its the only CBM that even cracks the top 20 every time. This was the latest one done this year;

https://www.empireonline.com/movies/...s/best-movies/

When taking about critical reception, it is exactly that. The critic opinions. Why are you placing so much weight on their word? I mean even if their opinions were so defining, looking at the Tomatometer you keep quoting as being so reliable and fair, the average rating for TDK is 8.6/10 for critic scores. Higher than BP or any other notable CBM I've seen on there.

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No, they are as much superhero flicks as Infinity War... they just go about things differently. Superhero movies do not necessarily have to be CGI heavy punchfests with a lot of outlandish content. That's just one way of doing things. Yes, it's the predominant way of doing things, but to say TDK or Logan aren't superhero movies, is like saying Arkham Asylum isn't a superhero graphic novel.

Guess what? If Batman's in it, it's a superhero movie. As much as Infinity War, or any other superhero movie of the past thirty or forty years.

TDK is just a better superhero movie than any of the others. And yes, people who don't care for superhero movies also love it. That's why it's at the top of the list every single time.
Well said

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Old 05-12-2018, 11:57 AM   #120
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Default Re: Best Superhero Film of All-Time (with new Poll)

It is definitely still The Dark Knight for the reasons we have gone over for a decade, but I'm curious if it ends up above 50% (it is currently just below it). I do think it would be interesting to see if The Dark Knight could win one of these polls against "Anything Else."

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Old 05-12-2018, 03:04 PM   #121
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Default Re: Best Superhero Film of All-Time (with new Poll)

Anytime TDK gets involved in most conversations everything starts sounding pretentious.

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Old 05-12-2018, 03:55 PM   #122
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Default Re: Best Superhero Film of All-Time (with new Poll)

Why so serious?

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Old 05-12-2018, 06:17 PM   #123
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Default Re: Best Superhero Film of All-Time (with new Poll)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DACrowe View Post

Tony after 45 seconds of hesitation is about to call Cap, and Rhodey, who in the last movie was proud of sacrificing his leg for what he thought was right, nonchalantly flips the metaphorical bird to Sec. Ross and cracks jokes about a court martial. The "thematic" subtext in the Marvel movies is always only window dressing.
Yeah, that kinda bugged me. Rhodey was one of the most gung ho supporters of the accords, and was clearly majorly disappointed in Cap for rebelling, and then just does a complete 180 in the next flick.

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Old 05-12-2018, 06:28 PM   #124
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Default Re: Best Superhero Film of All-Time (with new Poll)

Yes, I noticed that immediately. It kind of makes the whole conflict of Civil War meaningless. I imagine that will become a point of contention on these boards in a year's time, because it is pretty deflating.

But it again points to the Marvel films are textually not that interested in anything more than the adventure, which is fine. I just find it limiting. For the record, it is kind of like how Stark can go from a libertarian-minded businessman in Iron Man 2 to a PTSD-raddled retiree in Iron Man 3, to an inexplicably active again pseudo-mad scientist in AOU, to a completely 180'd advocate for major government regulation and oversight at a globalized level in CW.

The point is to enjoy seeing him quipping with Cap in one movie and punching him in another.

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Old 05-12-2018, 06:41 PM   #125
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Default Re: Best Superhero Film of All-Time (with new Poll)

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Originally Posted by DACrowe View Post
Yes, I noticed that immediately. It kind of makes the whole conflict of Civil War meaningless. I imagine that will become a point of contention on these boards in a year's time, because it is pretty deflating.

But it again points to the Marvel films are textually not that interested in anything more than the adventure, which is fine. I just find it limiting. For the record, it is kind of like how Stark can go from a libertarian-minded businessman in Iron Man 2 to a PTSD-raddled retiree in Iron Man 3, to an inexplicably active again pseudo-mad scientist in AOU, to a completely 180'd advocate for major government regulation and oversight at a globalized level in CW.

The point is to enjoy seeing him quipping with Cap in one movie and punching him in another.
Pretty much. It's why I've increasingly started viewing the individual films/franchises through the prism of being self contained rather than a truly connected universe.

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