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Old 06-15-2018, 04:37 PM   #101
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 52

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Does Disney release a lot of smaller films? Smaller "mature" films?

Fox Searchlight has been one of my concerns with this merger for a while. Disney owns Touchstone which isn't very active but that could be a benefit they see. Fox acqu2could help them make smaller films. But those smaller mature films don't really fit the long standing Disney brand and they're all about brand. Then again Pirates of the Caribbean didn't fit their brand at a certain point of time
Exactly, Universal does, and they have a more diverse portfolio than Disney in live-action films (obviously), and Focus Features, while certainly falling behind this decade of outlets like A24 and Fox Searchlight (ironically), tells me there is more of a corporate interest in serving a more diverse marketplace. Everything at Disney for the last 10 years has been about narrrrooowwwing it to just franchises and remakes.

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Old 06-15-2018, 04:38 PM   #102
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 52

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I mean, it's nothing new for Fox. The original trailer for Star Wars, while fondly viewed now because we know how it turned out, didn't do the film any justice at all. I love its cheesiness, but it's pretty sloppy. Nearly everyone involved didn't think it would turn into the hit it became.

I love how bored the narrator sounds so much....

No wait, I don't. Boring narration and a boring trailer. Eeeeyyyuughh.

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Old 06-15-2018, 08:49 PM   #103
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 52

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In that the trinity for example is established. As a movie, I prefer WW to MoS, but I'd be lying if I said Superman hasn't been established.

Fury's big week boils down to here's what's on the news and he or rather whats his face on AoS, Caulson, is just chasing a storm so to speak. If these events happen so close to each other 1. that just feels so damn coincidental 2. why isn't a bigger deal made out of them? Obviously the answer is these men in black are here to cover up.
Thinking back to the discussion about how The Avengers weren't really made up of mostly established heroes in-universe.

In the DCEU, Aquaman is cited as that's his first weekend as Aquaman. Cyborg was supposed to be built up the most in JL since his origin is so intertwined to the mcguffin.

Well, WW retconned whatever was set up in BvS and either way, there was not much that was established about her. As I said, its just setting up the past. Batman was established well enough even if I personally have problems with his arcs, I will give you that. Supes was established in MoS but BvS seemed to have no idea what to do with him and we were basically down into "lets have Supes do or have done to him what the plot needs" instead of any real character establishment. And none of the backstories of the other JL guys were established anyways. If you wanna contrast that with Avengers, the back stories of the 4 guys with "special" abilities were all well established and its only the two SHIELD agents whose stories are kinda expositioned into the movie itself, which made perfect sense as they were the most "human" of those 6. Fury's big week does not alone establish the universe but the movies do and they all intertwine as one big week. As I said, it succeeded much better in setting up Avengers than the predecessors of JL did and I feel at least a Flash movie before JL would have helped out in that regard.

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Old 06-16-2018, 08:54 AM   #104
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 52

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Well, WW retconned whatever was set up in BvS and either way, there was not much that was established about her. As I said, its just setting up the past. Batman was established well enough even if I personally have problems with his arcs, I will give you that. Supes was established in MoS but BvS seemed to have no idea what to do with him and we were basically down into "lets have Supes do or have done to him what the plot needs" instead of any real character establishment. And none of the backstories of the other JL guys were established anyways. If you wanna contrast that with Avengers, the back stories of the 4 guys with "special" abilities were all well established and its only the two SHIELD agents whose stories are kinda expositioned into the movie itself, which made perfect sense as they were the most "human" of those 6. Fury's big week does not alone establish the universe but the movies do and they all intertwine as one big week. As I said, it succeeded much better in setting up Avengers than the predecessors of JL did and I feel at least a Flash movie before JL would have helped out in that regard.
WW went into hiding and really made herself known in present day after dealing with Ares and losing Trevor 100 years ago. WW84 still tbd.
Supes was a SJW in BvS.

Hulk had to be re-established in The Avengers. In much the same as the guy who runs really fast, what was established in JL suffices for that movie since his thing is being a total rookie yet still trying to help out.

I thought phase one was the way to do it, but then I just came to appreciate this more:
the alien invasion story + birth of superhero -> post-alien invasion + folks having been really affected by that + villain manipulating that tension & keeping tabs on others + superhero self-sacrifice + start of redemption for other superheroes -> redemption for villains under the guise of replacing that superhero -> discovering what made another hero split from the duties of a superhero -> redemption for superheroes whilst dealing with the alien invasion story with first-timers + realizing even previous superheroes are also very outclassed

When I think back to phase one:
first public superhero in a long while -> hero overcomes monster -> these other heroes need the depressed public superhero who kinda sorta has redemption through something else (set before TiH apparently) + folks affected by public superhero mostly to make their own vers of what he wears -> redemption story for hero (past 3 entries occur simultaneously within a week) -> First Avenger discovered -> hero again overcomes monster/3rd redemption story for first intro'd superhero whilst dealing with alien invasion

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Old 06-16-2018, 09:46 AM   #105
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 52

All Might vs All for One is like the best Superman fight/moment I've seen in a long time.

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Old 06-16-2018, 11:53 AM   #106
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 52

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WW went into hiding and really made herself known in present day after dealing with Ares and losing Trevor 100 years ago. WW84 still tbd.
Supes was a SJW in BvS.

Hulk had to be re-established in The Avengers. In much the same as the guy who runs really fast, what was established in JL suffices for that movie since his thing is being a total rookie yet still trying to help out.

I thought phase one was the way to do it, but then I just came to appreciate this more:
the alien invasion story + birth of superhero -> post-alien invasion + folks having been really affected by that + villain manipulating that tension & keeping tabs on others + superhero self-sacrifice + start of redemption for other superheroes -> redemption for villains under the guise of replacing that superhero -> discovering what made another hero split from the duties of a superhero -> redemption for superheroes whilst dealing with the alien invasion story with first-timers + realizing even previous superheroes are also very outclassed

When I think back to phase one:
first public superhero in a long while -> hero overcomes monster -> these other heroes need the depressed public superhero who kinda sorta has redemption through something else (set before TiH apparently) + folks affected by public superhero mostly to make their own vers of what he wears -> redemption story for hero (past 3 entries occur simultaneously within a week) -> First Avenger discovered -> hero again overcomes monster/3rd redemption story for first intro'd superhero whilst dealing with alien invasion

Well, I just feel the opposite but I dont want to rehash the same argument here. Glad it worked for you, mate To me, it felt like you have to force yourself hard to see all that in the first 6 movies of DCEU whereas with the MCU, it was rather clear cut.

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Old 06-16-2018, 04:23 PM   #107
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 52

Seeing that movie Tag gave me 2 thoughts
1) I think Jeremy Renner could've made a dope Joker
2) Jon Hamm really should've been Lex Luthor. But you people got Eisenberg

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Old 06-16-2018, 07:38 PM   #108
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 52

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I mean, it's nothing new for Fox. The original trailer for Star Wars, while fondly viewed now because we know how it turned out, didn't do the film any justice at all. I love its cheesiness, but it's pretty sloppy. Nearly everyone involved didn't think it would turn into the hit it became.

I'm amused because it's a product of its time. Prior to Star Wars, 1970s cinema in Hollywood was stark, minimalist, and with an emphasis of downbeat naturalism. After Vietnam, Watergate, and a decade of assassinations, moviemaking produced by the younger generation was dark and intellectual.

The way those kind of movies--from The Godfather to French Connection, Cabaret to The China Syndrome--were marketed is kind of what they're doing here, but it just doesn't... match. It doesn't fit Star Wars at all. And that was the movie that changed the paradigm. Jaws created modern blockbusters, but Star Wars created modern spectacle. A cynic might even say doomed it, because American mainstream moviegoing is a lot less savvy and intelligent than it was back then.

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Old 06-16-2018, 08:36 PM   #109
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 52

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Well, I just feel the opposite but I don't want to rehash the same argument here. Glad it worked for you, mate To me, it felt like you have to force yourself hard to see all that in the first 6 movies of DCEU whereas with the MCU, it was rather clear cut.
What I sequenced are just basic plot stuff or loglines.
I could embellish for the MCU, but the phase one movies don't tie in as much to each other for the key players beyond where the SHIELD agents/director briefly go and the prequel before the team-up if that's the clear-cut preference.

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Seeing that movie Tag gave me 2 thoughts
1) I think Jeremy Renner could've made a dope Joker
2) Jon Hamm really should've been Lex Luthor. But you people got Eisenberg
Didn't think Renner's character went there basing off the trailer.
Also, are you spoiling Hamm's role in that movie?

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Old 06-16-2018, 09:01 PM   #110
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 52

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I'm amused because it's a product of its time. Prior to Star Wars, 1970s cinema in Hollywood was stark, minimalist, and with an emphasis of downbeat naturalism. After Vietnam, Watergate, and a decade of assassinations, moviemaking produced by the younger generation was dark and intellectual.

The way those kind of movies--from The Godfather to French Connection, Cabaret to The China Syndrome--were marketed is kind of what they're doing here, but it just doesn't... match. It doesn't fit Star Wars at all. And that was the movie that changed the paradigm. Jaws created modern blockbusters, but Star Wars created modern spectacle. A cynic might even say doomed it, because American mainstream moviegoing is a lot less savvy and intelligent than it was back then.
There’s really no evidence to suggest that mainstream audiences are any less intellect than or savvy now than they were in the 70s. Sure, audiences today eat up cruddy movies, and audiences then did too. Audiences then were also still more accepting of blatant racial and gender stereotypes...not sure how that equates to being more savvy.

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Old 06-16-2018, 09:38 PM   #111
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 52

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I'm amused because it's a product of its time. Prior to Star Wars, 1970s cinema in Hollywood was stark, minimalist, and with an emphasis of downbeat naturalism. After Vietnam, Watergate, and a decade of assassinations, moviemaking produced by the younger generation was dark and intellectual.

The way those kind of movies--from The Godfather to French Connection, Cabaret to The China Syndrome--were marketed is kind of what they're doing here, but it just doesn't... match. It doesn't fit Star Wars at all. And that was the movie that changed the paradigm. Jaws created modern blockbusters, but Star Wars created modern spectacle. A cynic might even say doomed it, because American mainstream moviegoing is a lot less savvy and intelligent than it was back then.


The usual BS excuse trotted out by guys who cannot make movies that the audiences can enjoy. The movie going audience is what they are and always have been. Just because someone prefers to be entertained at the cinema does not mean they are less savvy and intelligent than anyone, really.


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Old 06-16-2018, 09:40 PM   #112
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There’s really no evidence to suggest that mainstream audiences are any less intellect than or savvy now than they were in the 70s. Sure, audiences today eat up cruddy movies, and audiences then did too. Audiences then were also still more accepting of blatant racial and gender stereotypes...not sure how that equates to being more savvy.
Yup.

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Old 06-16-2018, 09:46 PM   #113
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What I sequenced are just basic plot stuff or loglines.
I could embellish for the MCU, but the phase one movies don't tie in as much to each other for the key players beyond where the SHIELD agents/director briefly go and the prequel before the team-up if that's the clear-cut preference.



Again, I don't feel that way at all. I found it a lot easier to buy an International agency like SHIELD keeping tabs on unusual people and stuff than just a random businessman like Lex Luthor. I mean, I get what you are saying - the events of MoS directly set up events in BvS and events in BvS indirectly lead to events of SS and events in BvS also lead to JL. So from that continuity chain point of view, yes it does make a bit of sense but then again, events of IM 1 and 2 sets up the last scene in TIH and events of IM 2 directly lead to events in Thor 1 and events in Thor 1 and Cap 1 directly lead into The Avengers. So really, I just do not see how DCEU had closer continuity, so to speak.

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Old 06-16-2018, 10:44 PM   #114
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Again, I don't feel that way at all. I found it a lot easier to buy an International agency like SHIELD keeping tabs on unusual people and stuff than just a random businessman like Lex Luthor. I mean, I get what you are saying - the events of MoS directly set up events in BvS and events in BvS indirectly lead to events of SS and events in BvS also lead to JL. So from that continuity chain point of view, yes it does make a bit of sense but then again, events of IM 1 and 2 sets up the last scene in TIH and events of IM 2 directly lead to events in Thor 1 and events in Thor 1 and Cap 1 directly lead into The Avengers. So really, I just do not see how DCEU had closer continuity, so to speak.
That's one aspect is what I'm saying. The DCEU provided more variety on how to weave that continuity as opposed to a routine of an international agency piecing a scattered puzzle together...ergo bringing the key players closer.

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Old 06-16-2018, 11:45 PM   #115
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 52

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There’s really no evidence to suggest that mainstream audiences are any less intellect than or savvy now than they were in the 70s. Sure, audiences today eat up cruddy movies, and audiences then did too. Audiences then were also still more accepting of blatant racial and gender stereotypes...not sure how that equates to being more savvy.
Yes, 21st century audiences are more politically correct and have a better understanding of multicultural issues and the blind spots of white privilege, but mainstream American cinema has demonstrably gotten less intelligent over the passing years (and yes I am aware of the irony of writing this as someone who has long frequented an internet forum for superhero movies).

While I don't necessarily consider this a bad thing--as you're right in most ways our culture has improved--cinema used to be viewed as a populist art form that allowed filmmakers to confront hard truths, which is evident in the vast number of political "issues" movies that were seen by large swaths of Americans in the 1970s, as well as the emphasis on naturalism and even cynicism. Whereas now moviegoers prefer cinema that more and more skirts reality and embraces a grander fantasy and illusion, which is closer to the kind of "dream factory" logic of 1950s Hollywood, which was also heavily reliant on escapist fantasies like today, although back then it was more musicals and westerns than superhero movies and literal high fantasies.

There is a kind of cyclical nature to it, as after Vietnam, Watergate, etc., the Baby Boomers rejected what they viewed as "frivolity" in their parents' generation, and now a generation later, millennials are generally preferring to escape into childhood daydreams as opposed to watch movies that challenge them. Of course there are still "smart" movies today, but they're independent or "prestige" and seen by an increasingly small part of the moviegoing public. Our tastes have changed and "message movies" are now considered "Oscar movies," while the ones we all go to the theaters for need to mostly have spectacle and be based on a preexisting brand.

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The usual BS excuse trotted out by guys who cannot make movies that the audiences cannot enjoy. The movie going audience is what they are and always have been. Just because someone prefers to be entertained at the cinema does not mean they are less savvy and intelligent than anyone, really.
The moviegoing audience is always changing from generation to generation, and decade to decade. It's why it is smaller now in the U.S., more globalized, and we still aren't all watching oaters, musicals, and screwball comedies that are primarily dialogue driven.

To pretend that there isn't a vast difference between '70s cinema and 2010s Hollywood is liking playing oblivious to the difference between the kind of movies that were made in the '30s vs. the '80s.

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Old 06-17-2018, 01:54 AM   #116
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Seeing that movie Tag gave me 2 thoughts
1) I think Jeremy Renner could've made a dope Joker
2) Jon Hamm really should've been Lex Luthor. But you people got Eisenberg
Eisenberg as Lex Luthor was so promising, and it was even better when I believed him saying the script was awesome....

It scarred me and made me doubt reading or hearing any of the stars saying the movie they star in has a great script.

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Old 06-17-2018, 01:56 AM   #117
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Yes, 21st century audiences are more politically correct and have a better understanding of multicultural issues and the blind spots of white privilege, but mainstream American cinema has demonstrably gotten less intelligent over the passing years (and yes I am aware of the irony of writing this as someone who has long frequented an internet forum for superhero movies).

While I don't necessarily consider this a bad thing--as you're right in most ways our culture has improved--cinema used to be viewed as a populist art form that allowed filmmakers to confront hard truths, which is evident in the vast number of political "issues" movies that were seen by large swaths of Americans in the 1970s, as well as the emphasis on naturalism and even cynicism. Whereas now moviegoers prefer cinema that more and more skirts reality and embraces a grander fantasy and illusion, which is closer to the kind of "dream factory" logic of 1950s Hollywood, which was also heavily reliant on escapist fantasies like today, although back then it was more musicals and westerns than superhero movies and literal high fantasies.

There is a kind of cyclical nature to it, as after Vietnam, Watergate, etc., the Baby Boomers rejected what they viewed as "frivolity" in their parents' generation, and now a generation later, millennials are generally preferring to escape into childhood daydreams as opposed to watch movies that challenge them. Of course there are still "smart" movies today, but they're independent or "prestige" and seen by an increasingly small part of the moviegoing public. Our tastes have changed and "message movies" are now considered "Oscar movies," while the ones we all go to the theaters for need to mostly have spectacle and be based on a preexisting brand.

The moviegoing audience is always changing from generation to generation, and decade to decade. It's why it is smaller now in the U.S., more globalized, and we still aren't all watching oaters, musicals, and screwball comedies that are primarily dialogue driven.

To pretend that there isn't a vast difference between '70s cinema and 2010s Hollywood is liking playing oblivious to the difference between the kind of movies that were made in the '30s vs. the '80s.
How has it become less intelligent? And if this is an exercise in only remembering the cream of the crop, that really hurts the argument.The movie going audience is a bit smaller. The amount of people watching movies is a lot bigger.

You are right. There is a difference between 70s cinema and 2010s cinema. But it isn't not based around the intelligence of the audience or the films. There are more blockbusters because there is more studios to make them. Just like there are more Independent films, as there are more ways to make them. One of the best things about this decade has been how we can have a 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00 and 10s, era film, but with today's tech. There are so many more movies, so many more voices and many of them doing new and different things. And a lot of these voices are very different what came before. Unless we think straight white males from the US and the UK can cover every aspect of the human experience.

Last year we got a more intelligent Blade Runner then the original Blade Runner. Look at the level of storytelling in animation. There was no Pixar in the 70s. Want to compare animation from then to Pixar? There was no TDKT in the 70s. If we are going smaller, I have been able to enjoy the likes of Lady Bird, Ex Machina, Wind River, Hell or High Water, Annihilation, Sicario, Prisoners, the Nice Guys, etc. What was the blockbuster equivalent Fury Road, 2049 and Black Panther? Hereditary is in theaters. Edgar Wright, Chris Nolan and Denis Villeneuve have careers. You can watch Refn do his bat**** crazy thing. For your argument to hold water, you have to eliminate the vast majority of film from each year.

George Miller spent 150m on a feminist film. Black Panther is a 200m film on the black experience. Zootopia is about race relations and bias policing, and cost 150m. When did this happen before?

And this before we get to television. Which has basically turned into long form cinema in a lot of ways. I personally love how limitations are becoming less and less of an issue.

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Old 06-17-2018, 02:04 AM   #118
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There was no TDKT in the 70s.
There were Dirty Harry movies, a bunch of great movies.

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Old 06-17-2018, 02:13 AM   #119
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There were Dirty Harry movies, a bunch of great movies.
Well, I really like the first one.

Though it is interesting. Because stuff like Dirty Harry, or Rocky, Rambo, or really any of these series with so many sequels were criticized for dumbing down and being the same old same old.

The very reason we believe in the third film curse or series getting worse overtime, is that is what use to happen. Even in the 70s. Marvel is a far cry from perfection to me. But look at the Captain America series. It has has elevated with each film. Fury Road is the 4th sequel to Mad Max, and I'd argue is it is clearly the one with the most depth and I'd say it is the best. And it came out in 2015.

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Old 06-17-2018, 02:20 AM   #120
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But As I said they could be open to adding a new subsidiary that allows them to do that. I'm just skeptical of that. They're already so successful without that market I don't see why they'll add it to their fold. Maybe they want that Best Picture Oscar. They have all the power to just start making those type of films. But thats like the point I brought up that maybe Comcast wants to allow for more big franchises and they would still allow for Fox Searchlight etc to run un aposed

I can see either happening and again I want reiterate for everyone I have no preference who gets it
That's sort of my worry as well. The argument seems to be that Disney would up its award potential, but do they actually give a crap about that? Critics can sneer all they want, but they're probably one of the most successful film studios in history right now. Oscars would be nice, but I doubt Bob Iger is losing sleep because Infinity War brought in 2 billion at the box office instead of a Best Picture nomination.

And that worries me. I don't see a film like Logan getting made at Disney. Even Black Panther, which was smarter and dealt with more sensitive topics than the usual MCU fare, didn't really break the mold with its story (other than the notable feat of being a hit superhero movie starring a mostly black cast, which is sadly still rare).

In a way, I'd be interested to see Disney opening a subsidiary for more daring and innovative superhero films with lower budgets, like what WB is rumored to be doing with the Joaquin Phoenix Joker movie.

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Old 06-17-2018, 02:34 AM   #121
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 52

Disney wins Oscars all the time.

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Old 06-17-2018, 02:39 AM   #122
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 52

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That's sort of my worry as well. The argument seems to be that Disney would up its award potential, but do they actually give a crap about that? Critics can sneer all they want, but they're probably one of the most successful film studios in history right now. Oscars would be nice, but I doubt Bob Iger is losing sleep because Infinity War brought in 2 billion at the box office instead of a Best Picture nomination.

And that worries me. I don't see a film like Logan getting made at Disney. Even Black Panther, which was smarter and dealt with more sensitive topics than the usual MCU fare, didn't really break the mold with its story (other than the notable feat of being a hit superhero movie starring a mostly black cast, which is sadly still rare).

In a way, I'd be interested to see Disney opening a subsidiary for more daring and innovative superhero films with lower budgets, like what WB is rumored to be doing with the Joaquin Phoenix Joker movie.
Like...Best Supporting Actor for Mark Rylance? Or the animated movies that regularly pull in wins and nominations, both from their in-house studio and Pixar? Marvel not winning awards doesn't mean they never get nominated or win.

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Old 06-17-2018, 02:53 AM   #123
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 52

I'm aware they win awards. Hell we arguably have the Best Animated category because of Beauty and the Beast. What I'm saying is that I'm skeptical of the narrative that they'd want Searchlight to try and win credibility when it's something I don't think they care about all that much. I mean neither would I at that point. They don't need to keep something like Fox Searchlight going, which troubles me.

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Old 06-17-2018, 03:22 AM   #124
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 52

That's fair. But it also isn't like Disney doesn't like their prestige and they actively try to get it. It is exactly why Pixar and Walt Disney Animation stay separate imo.

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Old 06-17-2018, 03:55 AM   #125
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 52

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That's fair. But it also isn't like Disney doesn't like their prestige and they actively try to get it. It is exactly why Pixar and Walt Disney Animation stay separate imo.
True.

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