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Old 03-07-2017, 12:27 AM   #551
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Default Re: Vincent D'Onofrio Cast as Kingpin!

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Originally Posted by Steamteck View Post
I'm old enough to remember when that wasn't true. I remember Fisk giving him a real fight in more than one comic. At one point crushing Peter's arm to the point it lost all feeling. That's the Spidey i grew up with where Fisk was a physical threat. I honestly liked him better.

Ok old guy rant done. Spider-Man has moved on from normal street level villains good or bad
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So am I. But we're talking about the TV show interpretation, not the comics. The DD version of Fisk would easily get overpowered by Spider-man. No if ands or buts about it.
well inthe book and animated series they wer pushing that the king pin is like sumo wrestler with all that (what we mistake for fat as muscle) and he's in peek human musle form .

And dare devil thanks to his ninja training is in peek or near peek condition where he's able to lift turned over limo's as bat man has done too. if your in peek condition you can take a super human if they aren't near or on par with the levels of say the hulk

if the super human can lift 70 tons and above then the fight futile but under 40 tons . or about it then they have a chance.

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Old 03-10-2017, 01:18 PM   #552
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Default Re: Vincent D'Onofrio Cast as Kingpin!

That's not true, though. It's not believable for a guy who can lift 10-15 tons to be able to be challenged by someone at "peak level." In real life, if a guy could lift that much, I don't care how hard you train or how big you are, you'd be crushed in a fight with that person.

Best thing for this version of Kingpin is to keep them grounded as they have and not have him standing toe to toe with Spider-Man or any other straight up metahumans, for that matter.

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Old 03-11-2017, 01:21 PM   #553
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Default Re: Vincent D'Onofrio Cast as Kingpin!

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That's not true, though. It's not believable for a guy who can lift 10-15 tons to be able to be challenged by someone at "peak level." In real life, if a guy could lift that much, I don't care how hard you train or how big you are, you'd be crushed in a fight with that person.
Would you though? Because being able to life heavy weights doesn't mean you're any less susceptible to a KO punch.

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Old 03-11-2017, 05:17 PM   #554
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Default Re: Vincent D'Onofrio Cast as Kingpin!

Far as I've always been able to tell, metahumans, typically, in addition to having phenomenal strength, usually have a high durability to go with it. So with that being said I'm not sure how a regular person would be able to even get a KO punch in on them.

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Old 03-12-2017, 12:34 AM   #555
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Default Re: Vincent D'Onofrio Cast as Kingpin!

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So am I. But we're talking about the TV show interpretation, not the comics. The DD version of Fisk would easily get overpowered by Spider-man. No if ands or buts about it.
if they wanted to they could make it work. kingpin was always peak human in the comics, never superhuman, yet he was able to deal damage to spiderman like others have said. and tv shows are interpretations of the comics.

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Old 03-12-2017, 01:15 AM   #556
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Default Re: Vincent D'Onofrio Cast as Kingpin!

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That's not true, though. It's not believable for a guy who can lift 10-15 tons to be able to be challenged by someone at "peak level." In real life, if a guy could lift that much, I don't care how hard you train or how big you are, you'd be crushed in a fight with that person.

Best thing for this version of Kingpin is to keep them grounded as they have and not have him standing toe to toe with Spider-Man or any other straight up metahumans, for that matter.
while I said what I said there are still other factors like who the better fighter is and who the smarter and more skilled / experienced fighter is too.
the king pin was trained in other disciplines while spiderman when just coming out of high school then didn't learn martial arts til heavily running into the x-men, new warriors , daredevil ,where he hung out with DD for some time and picked up kick boxing and learned further martial arts from shang shi all during his 20's til now.And that's where he picked up martial arts .



before this spider man during & from high school was just a puncher like old school cow boy / western films and with a bit of wrestling movies he didn't do that often. it was just when the writers remembered.

any way there other factor to consider. this version is still just getting out of high school compared to king pin he not as skilled as he should be, he does have his brains yes , but there are always alot of factor to consider. especially experience


and if spider is allowed to use his web shooters, then king pin can use any thing at his disposal anything in the room to any kind of weapon he has handy . and using his head . and most time they always fight in place king pin owns .


king pin is a crime lord and there no such thing as fair fight unless your in a tournament or some sort of match with set rules.

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Far as I've always been able to tell, metahumans, typically, in addition to having phenomenal strength, usually have a high durability to go with it. So with that being said I'm not sure how a regular person would be able to even get a KO punch in on them.
that not always with every that has gotten super strenght it's mostly the lucky ones . the case with spider man also wasn't said to have durability til the 90's and the it was when he stared evolving too in getting older he got stronger terms they stated he gotten more durable .

And Btw the meta human thing is mostly a dc thing ,then a marvel thing, they just say super human's in general & wildstorm too before they got pulled in to dc and now their sorta their own universe again. their still owned by dc For now . but it wasn't working out having the two being in the same earth .

Be sides wild storm was created too similar to marvel have Spies, Sleuths (detectives) super heroes and soldiers. <<: little more rounded in the all walks of life department or nearly . if it (the wild storm universe )fails as it own thing, I hope marvel get the property. alot of it would fit better there specially the stuff that linked to x-men origin wise and maybe we'll have thing's that should have been there by now. like human and mutant word together as thing intead of the hell firclub and new warrior being better representatives of the x-mens dream the n the X-men . which is ridiculous they are at that point yet . they can still have racial problem and made some permanent strides in achiement .


while Dc is mostly law Enforcement and detectives /investigators hence why dc is called detective comics entertainment ( I'm also aware you might know this part) and I know people keep for getting this mixed up . but the green lantern corp are inter galactic law men of the space frontier according to dc writers .


but that term meta isn't recognized in the marvel universe or wild storm one ether . << Story wise. any way I only ever seen certain fan using in as catch all term in some instance. semantics, I know but it's still only a dc thing.


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Old 03-12-2017, 11:00 AM   #557
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Default Re: Vincent D'Onofrio Cast as Kingpin!

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Would you though? Because being able to life heavy weights doesn't mean you're any less susceptible to a KO punch.
It does in comics, and similar genres. Sure, durability and strength are *sometimes* disjointed, but its almost never that disjointed. And it makes more than a little sense, you can't lift 10 tons without having the muscles and bones be fundamentally stronger.

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Old 03-12-2017, 11:02 AM   #558
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if they wanted to they could make it work. kingpin was always peak human in the comics, never superhuman, yet he was able to deal damage to spiderman like others have said. and tv shows are interpretations of the comics.
This is incorrect. He's always been "non-superhuman" in comics. During the classic era when he could damage Spider-man, he was *not* portrayed as peak human. He was portrayed as "Are we sure this guy isn't superhuman? Really?" The guy slammed open a vault door that Matt could just barely move at the expense of nearly incapacitating himself, and he did so with the casualness of opening a screen door.

Or bluntly, no, Kingpin is not evidence that "you don't need superhuman strength to hurt Spider-man". Kingpin is evidence that you *do* need superhuman strength to meaningfully hurt Kingpin.

( Sadly, this era is long gone, and Fisk is basically for crap these days and has been for years. . . )

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Old 03-12-2017, 12:10 PM   #559
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Default Re: Vincent D'Onofrio Cast as Kingpin!

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This is incorrect. He's always been "non-superhuman" in comics.
I know that...I never said he was superhuman, peak human is non superhuman
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During the classic era when he could damage Spider-man, he was *not* portrayed as peak human. He was portrayed as "Are we sure this guy isn't superhuman? Really?" The guy slammed open a vault door that Matt could just barely move at the expense of nearly incapacitating himself, and he did so with the casualness of opening a screen door.

Or bluntly, no, Kingpin is not evidence that "you don't need superhuman strength to hurt Spider-man". Kingpin is evidence that you *do* need superhuman strength to meaningfully hurt Kingpin.

( Sadly, this era is long gone, and Fisk is basically for crap these days and has been for years. . . )
which era was this? how is it different from the current?

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Old 03-12-2017, 12:31 PM   #560
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Default Re: Vincent D'Onofrio Cast as Kingpin!

There's really no getting around Kingpin fighting Spidey in their current iterations. Yes, he has been shown to be able to fight Spider-man in the comics (though honestly, that was a bit silly, given how easily Spider-man should be able to best him).

But the fact is, this Kingpin is shown to be nothing more than a VERY strong normal human. Again, we saw him benching around 500lbs what looked like 2 or 3 times. That's incredibly impressive. However, MCU Spider-man caught a 3000lb car going 40 miles an hour.

In short, Spidey could stand there and let Kingpin hit him as hard as he wanted and it would barely phase him. This isn't even a situation where there's enough leeway to make it believable, similar to the Cap/Bucky vs. Iron Man in a busted suit. At least with that, Cap and Bucky are both Superhuman, so it's easier to suspend disbelief. Kingpin is just a strong normal guy.

He wouldn't be a physical threat to Spidey outside some kind of serum upgrade or super suit. Neither of which I'd like to see personally.

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Old 03-12-2017, 01:32 PM   #561
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Default Re: Vincent D'Onofrio Cast as Kingpin!

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There's really no getting around Kingpin fighting Spidey in their current iterations. Yes, he has been shown to be able to fight Spider-man in the comics (though honestly, that was a bit silly, given how easily Spider-man should be able to best him).

But the fact is, this Kingpin is shown to be nothing more than a VERY strong normal human. Again, we saw him benching around 500lbs what looked like 2 or 3 times. That's incredibly impressive. However, MCU Spider-man caught a 3000lb car going 40 miles an hour.

In short, Spidey could stand there and let Kingpin hit him as hard as he wanted and it would barely phase him. This isn't even a situation where there's enough leeway to make it believable, similar to the Cap/Bucky vs. Iron Man in a busted suit. At least with that, Cap and Bucky are both Superhuman, so it's easier to suspend disbelief. Kingpin is just a strong normal guy.

He wouldn't be a physical threat to Spidey outside some kind of serum upgrade or super suit. Neither of which I'd like to see personally.
Exactly. There's no way for them to sell Spider-Man versus Kingpin in the MCU. Neither of their feats support a back and forth battle, it'd be a massacre and Kingpin would be the victim.

Aside from the fact that it's nowhere near an even match, I just can't think of one good reason to have them face off anyway. They're operating on different playing fields, it should (and will) stay that way.

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Old 03-12-2017, 01:38 PM   #562
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Exactly. There's no way for them to sell Spider-Man versus Kingpin in the MCU. Neither of their feats support a back and forth battle, it'd be a massacre and Kingpin would be the victim.

Aside from the fact that it's nowhere near an even match, I just can't think of one good reason to have them face off anyway. They're operating on different playing fields, it should (and will) stay that way.
I'm fine with them facing off, just keep Kingpin a threat that's not a physical one. It wouldn't be hard to set up a Spidey vs. Kingpin fight, it would essentially evolve the same way Daredevil vs. Kingpin did. Spidey is doing his normal thing, capturing thugs, and during this he starts interfering in Kingpin's business, getting Kingpin's men locked up. Fisk gets annoyed, and starts sending some more highly qualified hit men after Spidey which in turn leads to Spidey looking into him more and getting more invested in shutting down Fisk's organization.

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Old 03-12-2017, 05:48 PM   #563
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Default Re: Vincent D'Onofrio Cast as Kingpin!

But even then, you eventually have to have a physical confrontation of some sort. You can only keep them interacting away from each other while having the actions correlate for so long. At the end of the day, I'd just rather they keep the two separate.

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Old 03-12-2017, 11:44 PM   #564
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Default Re: Vincent D'Onofrio Cast as Kingpin!

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This is incorrect. He's always been "non-superhuman" in comics. During the classic era when he could damage Spider-man, he was *not* portrayed as peak human. He was portrayed as "Are we sure this guy isn't superhuman? Really?" The guy slammed open a vault door that Matt could just barely move at the expense of nearly incapacitating himself, and he did so with the casualness of opening a screen door.

Or bluntly, no, Kingpin is not evidence that "you don't need superhuman strength to hurt Spider-man". Kingpin is evidence that you *do* need superhuman strength to meaningfully hurt Kingpin.

( Sadly, this era is long gone, and Fisk is basically for crap these days and has been for years. . . )

the was like the 60's through 70's and thor thread the same way with ever y on else to juggernaut taking him down these days too since . but certain marvel writers and some fans still push him as one the few people take the hulk and any past 100 tons still. even though there are alot that say thor is for crap him self too. it's writer point view thing and it what your into thing as well.


also the other problem here is the comic version according to the writers peak human is different from what other's here think of peak human . they push batman and Dare devil and some certain heroes that don't have enhanced (lower then super) or super strength above those of do Olympic sport or what was used to be strong men that used to do heave weights or of you seen the guineas book of record shows when they ever aired them on tv those guys that used pull trucks and set record for human strength with that.






shown in the books with batman and Dare devil who represent peak level strength.



bat man who is said to be at

Peak Human Strength
: Batman regularly bench-presses at least 1000 lbs. during his exercise routine.
This means he's capable of amazing feats such as punching a SWAT officer through a brick wall

Also

Peak Human Conditioning
Due to his intense training and diet Batman has accomplished feats that normal human beings might call superhuman. Batman is in peak physical and mental condition. Batman has displayed surprising strength, and is able to bench press weight of at least 1000 pounds, and has personally stated that his maximum leg press weight is 2500 lbs (over 1.133 Kg). However, as shown in Batman Odyssey # 2, Batman was able to overcome his personal record leg press, moving, with the strength of the legs, a stuck railroad car. In Gotham After Midnight # 2, Batman was able to hold up two golden sarcophagi with the approximate weight of at least 1 ton, for at least one minute. In addition,


with king pin. hmm now if Remember right when DD worn the black armor suit he him was able to

Dare devil who's said to be at
Peak Human Strength:
Thanks to his control over his central nervous system due to his many years of martial arts training, Matt can increase his strength to peak human level. He is strong enough to tip over a limo without straining, causally pick a man up and throw him, easily break a man's leg and rupture skin with a single kick, and lift Foggy's weights up easily with one hand . He has also shown the strength to use a mailbox as a weapon and hurt Hyde with his blows (Hyde is capable of easily lifting vans), and throw his baton with enough force to break concrete.

A side effect of his sense of touch is Murdock's ability to manipulate his muscles and internal organs. The sense of touch is not just external, but internal too (central nervous system), thereby giving him the ability to have total body control, increasing his strength and reflexes to peak human levels, increasing his agility to enhanced human levels, and also giving him the ability to numb himself to pain




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Originally Posted by Infinity9999x View Post
There's really no getting around Kingpin fighting Spidey in their current iterations. Yes, he has been shown to be able to fight Spider-man in the comics (though honestly, that was a bit silly, given how easily Spider-man should be able to best him).

But the fact is, this Kingpin is shown to be nothing more than a VERY strong normal human. Again, we saw him benching around 500lbs what looked like 2 or 3 times. That's incredibly impressive. However, MCU Spider-man caught a 3000lb car going 40 miles an hour.


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Exactly. There's no way for them to sell Spider-Man versus Kingpin in the MCU. Neither of their feats support a back and forth battle, it'd be a massacre and Kingpin would be the victim.

Aside from the fact that it's nowhere near an even match, I just can't think of one good reason to have them face off anyway. They're operating on different playing fields, it should (and will) stay that way.

ok so I'm finally back from work now you I'm gonna say I respect both your thoughts. but fallow me here , I did say there are other factors at play and to be considered . the problem here is I think this is still reading of to you to as "mono el mono boxing match" some how which is weird on my end.

Again this is a fight which mean dirty street fight rules to fist who's a boss to the Don's and god fathers of the Mobwoprld and super villain comunity. will have his people to wear down spider after spider man. Who has taken out most of his business and he's taken notice of peter parker in spider form after what's went down with DD.


when spider man is able use his web shooters of all things . I said while this is fight and king pin and spider man would both need to use their head. cause it's not a boxing match .

if spider man has web shooters. the king pin will use every thing at his disposal which means this thug's, his hench men, his assasin's and Don's and god fathers . which also mean people like bulls eye and women on par with electra like bloody mary or lady bulleye who was the original Ronin before hawk took the Identity .

also I said weapons . king pin has his kane after his personal body guard of assassins are taken down peter as spider man will likely look like what happened to him when the goblin beat him up in sam Rami's spider man moviem where he was beat up and up by those bat wing blade the goblin threw at him. Also the king pin's kane has gas's who said the king pin has to do an up front fight like in boxing match ? seriously who?



the man fallows the rule of the Crime world, not any sort of boxing match like captain america or bucky did facing iron man in a face off .


they won't do a face to face. the king pin will have his men try to tire spiderman out and when he has to step in he will not only use his peak human strength and martial arts he will use his gas weapon. in his kane and knock out spiderman .

Weapons

The Kingpin sometimes carries a walking stick which contains a concealed laser beam weapon that fires a short pulse of 300 watts, enough energy to vaporize a handgun. The walking stick can also be used to fire a concentrated spray of sleeping gas. The Kingpin's diamond stickpin also contains a small, highly compressed container of sleeping gas which is effective when fired directly into an opponent's face at close range. The Kingpin uses the stickpin gas as a last resort.

he doesn't have to really go absolutely toe to toe in a prolonged fight. as said this is


  • Peak Human Strength: Fisk is composed almost entirely of muscle that has been developed to enormous size, much like a sumo wrestler, and he possesses peak human strength with only the bare minimum actually being fat. His vast bulk shields him from many forms of injury, either providing padding or causing penetration wounds to only strike him relatively superficially.[23]
  • Master Martial Artist : Fisk has extraordinary skill in hand-to-hand combat, specializing in a number of martial arts, including sumo wrestling, judo, and hapkido. His fighting skills and unusual agility for a man of his size compensate for a great difference between his human level of strength and that of Spider-Man when the two engage in unarmed combat (Spider-Man also has severe inhibitions about using his strength against an opponent without superhuman powers for fear of killing him or her.) [23] The Kingpin was also capable of defeating 8 men from the finest martial arts schools in 17 seconds.[2]
  • Criminal Genius: Fisk is a criminal genius and a highly skilled planner and organizer. He employs numerous henchmen, scientists, and even superhumans, almost all of whom are fiercely loyal to him due to dedication, fear, or both.[23]

this is a fight in a street fight to fist. there aren't rules like a boxing match he will use his gas kane and leave /escape the scene of the crime.

And also if spider,an takenout most of the hired help and fisk has enough money to hire super villains to be his hired help or create them too that how he got beetle and more .


List of Kingpin's Henchmen


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Old 03-13-2017, 09:28 AM   #565
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Default Re: Vincent D'Onofrio Cast as Kingpin!

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But even then, you eventually have to have a physical confrontation of some sort. You can only keep them interacting away from each other while having the actions correlate for so long. At the end of the day, I'd just rather they keep the two separate.
that would be so damn disappointing.

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Old 03-13-2017, 12:36 PM   #566
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But even then, you eventually have to have a physical confrontation of some sort. You can only keep them interacting away from each other while having the actions correlate for so long. At the end of the day, I'd just rather they keep the two separate.
Eh, it doesn't have to be an impressive physical confrontation. Did the Joker and Batman have an impressive physical confrontation? No. They almost never do, and yet he's consistently listed as the most dangerous and interesting villain for Batman.

And Zenith, I get what you're saying man, but at the end of the day it's still moot. We're talking about a strength, speed and endurance differential that is far too big for there to be any kind of physical confrontation between the two. If Kingpin is "fighting dirty" it really doesn't matter. It would be like an infant trying to fight dirty against a full grown MMA fighter.

Now, if Kingpin has a literal mob of goons after Spidey (maybe even a few superpowered ones, ala Shocker in USM), and he gets the holy living hell kicked out of him, then maybe. But at this rate, even a half dead Spidey would own Fisk in a fight.

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Old 03-14-2017, 01:22 PM   #567
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Default Re: Vincent D'Onofrio Cast as Kingpin!

Kingpin was still superhumanly buff well into the 80s. I don't think it was until the late 80s/early 90s that he started declining. I've never been clear on why they decided to do that, but its stuck pretty well.

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Old 03-15-2017, 02:47 AM   #568
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Default Re: Vincent D'Onofrio Cast as Kingpin!

:The Kingpin: 15 Things You Never Knew


http://www.cbr.com/the-kingpin-15-things-you-never-knew/?utm_source=CBR-FB-B&utm_medium=Facebook-Distribution&utm_campaign=CBR-FB-B&view=lista




2
. HE WHOOPED THE RED SKULL




In what was one of the most epic throwdowns in supervillain history (okay, so maybe we’re overselling the fight, just a little bit), the Kingpin and the Red Skull stripped down to their skivvies and chucked their knuckles under an impenetrable dome. Maybe we should set the scene, here. This little slobberknocker took place in “Captain America” #378, during the “Streets of Poison” storyline, which saw Cap hooked on a designer drug that the Red Skull was slinging on Kingpin’s turf.
Still stinging from that whole Hydra debacle in Las Vegas, the two villains decided to settle their differences the old fashioned way, mano-y- mano and because neither combatant trusted the other, it was decreed the match would be boxers (Kingpin, thank the gods) versus briefs (Red Skull and still damn disturbing). The Kingpin ultimately won the bout by falling on the Skull and crushing him beneath his massive weight. And they said Cap was high? Perhaps we should just chalk up this whole out-of-character fiasco to an editorial pipe dream.


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Old 03-15-2017, 01:19 PM   #569
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Default Re: Vincent D'Onofrio Cast as Kingpin!

Yeah, that was not one of Red Skull's brighter ideas.

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