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Old 04-02-2016, 03:59 PM   #76
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Default Re: What did you not like about Daredevil Season 2? Spoilers Ahead

I really kind of hated The Hand.

From a purely structural narrative standpoint, they were fine. They served as threatening antagonists, they served a very functional role in the story, and they was some fun plot stuff with them.

But in the end, we were still treated to images of dudes dressed as kabuki stage hands running along rooftops with bows and arrows.

It was goofy, lame, and kind of childish in a really dumb way. It completely killed immersion and tone foe me. I feel like they needed to go way more subtle with The Hand than they did.


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To me Frank was the one who had the right idea. I mean, think about it - in the first season Matt went through hell to take down Fisk and have him arrested. He succeeded. And guess what - in this season we see Fisk effortlessly taking control of the whole prison to the point where he was eating steaks and drinking fine wine, and was able to release the Punisher like it was nothing. Heck, look at Turk, a sex trafficker and a career criminal; he was arrested in Season 1 along with the rest of Fisk's cronies; in the beginning of Season 2 he's back on the streets selling weapons. Matt's approach to fighting crime is shown to be ineffective. I found myself vehemently agreeing with Frank when he said the "You hit 'em and they get back up, I hit 'em and they stay down" line.
Frank's approach to fighting crime isn't any more effective than Matt's. So, he kills a bunch of people. You know what people are really good at? Making more people. It's one of our defining characteristics as a species. And nothing about Frank's approach does anything to address why people choose to become criminals in the first place, so after the dust has settled from one of his shootouts, those factors are still out in the world, already influencing people who haven't made that choice yet. Simply put, when Frank takes out a nest of gangsters, within a year there will be new gangsters taking their place.

In fact, Frank's approach is significantly less effective for several reasons:

1: The power vacuums he creates are inherently more chaotic than the ones Matt creates.

2: Frank significantly escalates the violence, meaning that the criminals that he doesn't kill right away are going to greatly increase their violence in response, not just to him but to anyone they see as a potential threat, which will inevitably include civilians who are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

3: Frank's approach negates the possibility of confidential informants and turncoats assisting in in-depth investigations, meaning that he only ever scratches the surface of large scale criminal enterprises that he can't kill all at once.

4: Frank's approach does nothing to address white collar crime, which does significantly more damage and destroys many more lives than drug running or individual murders ever will, and something that Daredevil has and does investigate.

5: Frank's activities do not and will never serve as a deterrent for future crime, because the people he targets already live under constant threat of execution, both from their rivals and from the more ambitious members of their own organizations, and that hasn't stopped them from living their lives the way they do yet.

6: As we've already seen in the show, Frank's attacks do and will inspire violent reprisals from the survivors of his attacks and the friends and family of his victims, and innocents can and will be caught in the crossfire of those blood feuds.

7: When he's celebrated as a hero by members of the public, this normalizes the idea of violence and murder being an acceptable solution to your problems, so long as the people you hurt or kill "deserve it." Thing is, most gangsters who murder people believe that the deaths they caused were just or necessary as well. Their ethical framework is different from Frank's in many respects, but A) they're also pretty similar in many respects, and B) all it takes is for multiple people who have a different ethical framework from Frank to internalize the general Punisher ethos without thinking too hard about it to see rates of violence and murder actually increase as a result of the Punisher. When people who don't have the same strict ethical code and mental fortitude that Frank has internalize this notion, the chances of them hurting or killing people who they've more or less arbitrarily deemed to "deserve it" and thinking they're totally in the right for doing so "just like Frank" increases dramatically.

Frank Castle, especially the MCU version of Frank Castle, is a great and compelling character and I love him to bits. But his story is the story of a person who lost everything because of violence, and now violence is all that he has left. It's not the story of sound social policy.

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Old 04-17-2016, 05:05 PM   #77
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Default Re: What did you not like about Daredevil Season 2? Spoilers Ahead

I disliked that plot holes surrounding the Hand. It never felt like they lived up the promise that the giant hole in the city presented. I also disliked that they continued with the awful racist fear of the east tool that they used in S1.

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Old 04-18-2016, 04:27 AM   #78
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Default Re: What did you not like about Daredevil Season 2? Spoilers Ahead

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I disliked that plot holes surrounding the Hand. It never felt like they lived up the promise that the giant hole in the city presented.
The thing with the Hand is I felt they shouldn't have even been used this Season. Maybe a small appearance continuing the plotlines from the Stick episode but that's it. You could tell by how the Hand was used this season that most of the stuff was supposed to be saved for the Defenders, and they since they didn't want to use all the storylines, they only gave us half, leaving a lot of plot holes and unanswered questions.

The Hand subplot of Daredevil Season 2 is def the Iron Man 2 of the Netflix series. All of this was set up crammed in that Marvel themselves cut short so they could have stuff to use for the crossover.

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I also disliked that they continued with the awful racist fear of the east tool that they used in S1
And what fear of the east tool? Are you saying Asians can't be villains? Are you fine with Turk Barret being a criminal even though he falls under the racist stereotypes of black males?

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Old 04-18-2016, 05:32 AM   #79
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Default Re: What did you not like about Daredevil Season 2? Spoilers Ahead

The only thing that bothered me about The Hand in season 2 wasnt anything to do with story (okay the black sky was a little silly and confusing) but was the let down on the production value side, again like season 1, it ended with a slighy whimper. It looked stupid there only being like 4 ninja's on the roof with them at the end even after them cutting and showing at least 20 running about. In todays times it would not have been hard to green screen and re-use the extra in each shot to make it appear there was a ton of them.

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Old 04-22-2016, 10:51 PM   #80
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The only thing that bothered me about The Hand in season 2 wasnt anything to do with story (okay the black sky was a little silly and confusing) but was the let down on the production value side, again like season 1, it ended with a slighy whimper. It looked stupid there only being like 4 ninja's on the roof with them at the end even after them cutting and showing at least 20 running about. In todays times it would not have been hard to green screen and re-use the extra in each shot to make it appear there was a ton of them.
You're goddamn right.

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Old 04-24-2016, 04:10 AM   #81
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There 's one thing I don't get...

- The ninjas can mask their heartbeat. Matt can't detect them.
- Then they draw swords and he can detect them again because of the sound the swords make.
- They realize that and don't use their swords anymore, so Matt again doesn't know where they are.
- Then he has the idea of detecting them by listening to their breath and everything's fine again.

So... why is he only able to detect the ninjas because of their heartbeat in the first place? The movement of their arms and legs, their steps, their clothes etc. make tiny, tiny noises he should be able to hear.

He can hear the sound of a sword cutting through the air? He can't hear the sound of a clothed arm and fist punching through the air?

And shouldn't he also be able to smell them? Or was it said in the show that they can mask that too?

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Old 04-25-2016, 11:03 AM   #82
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There 's one thing I don't get...

- The ninjas can mask their heartbeat. Matt can't detect them.
- Then they draw swords and he can detect them again because of the sound the swords make.
- They realize that and don't use their swords anymore, so Matt again doesn't know where they are.
- Then he has the idea of detecting them by listening to their breath and everything's fine again.

So... why is he only able to detect the ninjas because of their heartbeat in the first place? The movement of their arms and legs, their steps, their clothes etc. make tiny, tiny noises he should be able to hear.

He can hear the sound of a sword cutting through the air? He can't hear the sound of a clothed arm and fist punching through the air?

And shouldn't he also be able to smell them? Or was it said in the show that they can mask that too?
Yeah, season 2's handling of Matt's super senses was kind of goofy, and a lot of the goofy choices they made were unnecessary.

While the show is streets ahead of the Affleck movie in every other way, I actually think the movie, overall, handled Matt's powers a lot better. They were a little more subtle and a little more consistent and a littler more logical, and were more grounded in how echolocation actually works and the techniques blind people use to navigate the world in real life. All of that, I thought, was more interesting. It forced Matt to be more creative when getting a feel for the space of a room. As contrived as having them there in the first place was, bursting the decorative water pipes in Fisk's office to generate more ambient noise for him to use to echolocate with was kind of cool, and I kind of wish MCU Matt did more stuff like that.

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Old 04-25-2016, 11:17 AM   #83
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And what fear of the east tool? Are you saying Asians can't be villains? Are you fine with Turk Barret being a criminal even though he falls under the racist stereotypes of black males?
The Hand weren't simply Asians who happened to be villains. They were Asian villains who were completely defined by Asian stereotypes (many of which, like their spooky occultism, having their roots in a xenophobic fear of "barbarous" foreign cultures), who drew their aesthetic from an almost entirely inaccurate Western misconception of a piece of Japanese history, and who had no individual characterization or humanizing moments. All while, and this is the biggest issue, there were no other Asian characters to counterbalance them.

Turk Barret may be a stereotype, but "black guy who sells guns" is nowhere near as bad an example of stereotyping as "devil worshipping ninja cult who use bows and arrows and dress like kabuki stagehands," and the show also has Ben Urich, Clair Temple, Brett Mahoney, and Blake Tower. Out of all of the named recurring criminal characters on Daredevil, exactly one of them is a black man. Most of them are white. And out of the five recurring black characters on Daredevil, exactly one of them is a criminal. Hardly comparable to the show's treatment of Japanese culture.

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Old 04-25-2016, 04:03 PM   #84
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The Hand weren't simply Asians who happened to be villains. They were Asian villains who were completely defined by Asian stereotypes (many of which, like their spooky occultism, having their roots in a xenophobic fear of "barbarous" foreign cultures)...
I think the reason why people want to see ninjas is nothing about xenophobic fear of barbarous foreign cultures, it's because most people think ninjas are very cool.

Of course, the ninja stuff isn't really authentic, but then again people don't watch James Bond films to see authentic spy's work, they don't watch Indiana Jones films to see authentic archaelogical stuff, and they don't watch ninja films for history accuracy. They just like it.

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Old 04-28-2016, 11:17 PM   #85
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Default Re: What did you not like about Daredevil Season 2? Spoilers Ahead

I liked the season (didn't love it like season 1) but the Hand plot line was just confusing and out of place.

I actually don't even care if they continue it next season at this point. They should just forget it and move in a new direction.

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Old 04-28-2016, 11:37 PM   #86
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I liked the season (didn't love it like season 1) but the Hand plot line was just confusing and out of place.

I actually don't even care if they continue it next season at this point. They should just forget it and move in a new direction.
Pretty sure you'll get your wish. I see The Hand being used for The Defenders, hopefully for Elektra's sake, and Born Again for Season 3.


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Old 05-01-2016, 09:06 AM   #87
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Default Re: What did you not like about Daredevil Season 2? Spoilers Ahead

Karen's secret was nodded to in season 1, nodded to again in this season, we haven't really got what her secret is.

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Old 05-04-2016, 11:28 AM   #88
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Good season but definitely not as strong as Season 1. It kind of fizzled out towards the end. DeKnight's influence was clearly missing in the writing/storytelling. The Hand weren't compelling at all. The countless fights became tedious and repetitive. I also didn't like were they took Elektra’s character after a great introduction. Her death felt hollow and rushed. Season 2 unfortunately peaked too early in the season.

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Old 05-11-2016, 09:11 AM   #89
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Default Re: What did you not like about Daredevil Season 2? Spoilers Ahead

Like many others it was The Hand plot that was weakest for me.

First off I hate that they took the perfect look and design of The Hand from season 1, all red, and ruined it by throwing a bunch of black in it.

And Elektra being a Black Sky just seems to ruin whatever it is they are going for with that, and also makes the murder of the child in season one all the worse... Because if Stick had previously been able to try and salvage Elektra as she was a child Black Sky, why was it ultimately necessary to outright kill the kid in season one?
Why not just kidnap him?
Apparently he isn't a WMD, it all seems so stupid.

Look Marvel, you know we will tune in to season three regardless, so why leave us with a bunch of cliffhangers?
Why leave all these unanswered questions about giants holes in the middle of the city, caskets that draw blood, zombie people who give it, blind drug handlers and all this other crap for which the payoff will likely not match the anticipation?

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Old 05-11-2016, 02:46 PM   #90
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Look Marvel, you know we will tune in to season three regardless, so why leave us with a bunch of cliffhangers?
Why leave all these unanswered questions about giants holes in the middle of the city, caskets that draw blood, zombie people who give it, blind drug handlers and all this other crap for which the payoff will likely not match the anticipation?
Because all of that was set up for the Defenders. Marvel could've done it in a more cohesive manner, but all of those unanswered questions will be answered in the crossover, where they'll most likely be going up against the Hand.

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Old 05-12-2016, 10:23 AM   #91
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Because all of that was set up for the Defenders. Marvel could've done it in a more cohesive manner, but all of those unanswered questions will be answered in the crossover, where they'll most likely be going up against the Hand.
Let's hope you're right and it isn't just more questions instead of answers.

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Old 05-13-2016, 11:54 AM   #92
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Default Re: What did you not like about Daredevil Season 2? Spoilers Ahead

Just finished season 2 last night and... sadly... I didn't like it.

I thought it started off well enough with the Punisher focus, but from the moment Elektra entered the story it started spiraling. The whole story with Elektra and the Hand just didn't fit with what was going on with the Punisher. There was nothing there to tie them together to the point of each becoming distractions to the other.

The Hand story was just too all over the place. First off... I hated the depiction of Elektra. I couldn't stand her from the very first episode she was in. She got better later in the season, but not enough to make me care. There was never an appealing reason for Matt to love her. None. Then the Hand were crappily handled and Nabu was a bad "main" villain. His role had no heart and could have literally been anyone they wanted to plug in there. There was next to no build up regarding Elektra being the Black Sky. So little in fact that I completely forgot it was even a thing from season 1. She was just kinda IT... and then with no explanation what the Black Sky was or what qualified her as the Black Sky. It was very off putting.

Now, due to the Hand/Elektra storyline, Punisher's story suddenly fell to the back burner. It started out fantastic and then became an after thought for a while during the trial stuff. The episode with the Kingpin was good but short, and then his story went off the rails with the whole Blacksmith thing. What do I mean? Well, he was an interesting character, but then this Blacksmith plot was suddenly presented most the way through the season and the reveal of who it was came with no clues and very little lead-in. It just wasn't well done. While I loved the Punisher over all, the second half of the season really got bad for him.

I honestly feel like the people behind the scenes switched gears somewhere mid-season by adding Elektra and the Hand and backing away from the Punisher's ongoing storyline. It was like they got word that Netflix wanted a Punisher show, and so they cut his story short to leave some for his own show and hastily filled episodes with a poorly thought out Elektra/Hand plot instead.

I wish they'd have kept Elektra and the Hand out of it entirely. Extend the early Punisher episodes by an episode or two. Have the Trial be an episode or two. Extend the prison stuff with Kingpin to 2 or 3 episodes, and then have the rest of the season be the hunt for Punisher. Cut out the Blacksmith stuff (or introduce it sooner and flesh it out more) and make the Punisher the focus antagonist of season 2 like Kingpin was the focus antagonist of season 1.

All this complaining aside, I will say that I liked Foggy a lot more this season, though Karen got on my nerves. I also really liked Karen's new boss whose name I'm forgetting. Stick, of course, was a joy.


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Old 05-13-2016, 12:03 PM   #93
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I think in the last few episodes, there was too much disconnect with a lot of the subplots.

Karen's monologue just didn't work for me. Just felt like one of those generic voice-over monologues that's meant to underscore the story, but it didn't really have the proper effect.

I think Comic Girl 19 said it best about Karen this season. She's getting into everything. I get that Karen Page can't have the flaws she did in the past, but the lengths this character was taken this season was extreme. Having her replace Urich IMHO was indicative of how short sighted it was just to kill Urich for shock value purposes.

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Old 07-26-2016, 07:39 AM   #94
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Default Re: What did you not like about Daredevil Season 2? Spoilers Ahead

The problem was twofold. Firstly, that the season felt like 3 distinct storyline sections woven loosely together. Secondly, the 3rd of these "sections" was pretty bad and undermined what the series is about.

"The Punisher" eps 1-4 (and 9)
Amazing character work and Punisher was awesome. Really helped to highlight the debates on how "good" or even effective Daredevil is.

"Elektra" eps 5-8 (maybe 10 too at a push)
We learn more about Elektra and Matts past. Matt starts to lose track of his "Matt" life as he embraces his "Daredevil" life.

"Ninjas everywhere!" eps 11-Finale
Becomes simple "Good guy vs Bad Ninjas" fight with no other depth undermining any work they did at the start of the season.
So many ninjas, they're just like Video game NPCs, and it loses all mystery and intrigue
Nobu still has no character or personality to speak of.
Elektra and the Black sky resolution was just bad.
Entirely predictable
Too much Karen EVERYWHERE.

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Old 07-26-2016, 02:06 PM   #95
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Default Re: What did you not like about Daredevil Season 2? Spoilers Ahead

Yeah again, way too much of Karen everywhere this season. She's not Ben freaking Urich.

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Old 07-26-2016, 11:27 PM   #96
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But let's say, if Ben Zurich was still alive and her part was taken over entirely by him, would you be as mad about it?

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Old 07-27-2016, 12:32 AM   #97
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Well no because the reason I'm angry is because I think killing off Ben Urich so early was an awkward and short-sighted choice. Having Karen Page involved in that role was contrived and I think just reeks of the writers trying to over-compensate with a female character.

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Old 07-29-2016, 08:15 PM   #98
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For starters, I wish every time Foggy did something mildly impressive as a lawyer, the camera didn't zoom to Karen Page giving a smirk of approval. Why should we care so much if Nelson and Murdoch's secretary approves of their legal skills?

In general, I found the season to be solid, but not as good as season 1 ...despite the Punisher's involvement. Frank Castle's centralization was something of a double-edged sword, I think. Daredevil went into the background at times, the way Castle was implemented felt a bit forced occasionally (ex: in the finale), and I simply preferred Castle's method/style of dealing with scumbags than Daredevil's. He took some of Daredevil's thunder.

The way the season was broken into story arcs, while refreshing from season 1, just didn't seem to flow as well as I'd like. Also, some of the story arcs just weren't very good. The back-and-forth with Daredevil & Elektra, the repetitive ninja fights, the Black Sky... didn't sit well with me.

And then there were the plot-holes. What was that giant pit for? Who was the Blacksmith? Who killed the DA, etc.?

There are questions that likely will be answered, yet haven't been answered that I wish were. What is Black Sky? How was Nobu revived? What's the story with those people being drained? What is Elektra's actual role?

Finally, how many times is Karen's life going to be threatened? Seriously.

The season had a lot of positives, but this is a "negatives" thread so I'll not get into that.

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Old 07-30-2016, 04:27 AM   #99
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For starters, I wish every time Foggy did something mildly impressive as a lawyer, the camera didn't zoom to Karen Page giving a smirk of approval. Why should we care so much if Nelson and Murdoch's secretary approves of their legal skills?

In general, I found the season to be solid, but not as good as season 1 ...despite the Punisher's involvement. Frank Castle's centralization was something of a double-edged sword, I think. Daredevil went into the background at times, the way Castle was implemented felt a bit forced occasionally (ex: in the finale), and I simply preferred Castle's method/style of dealing with scumbags than Daredevil's. He took some of Daredevil's thunder.

The way the season was broken into story arcs, while refreshing from season 1, just didn't seem to flow as well as I'd like. Also, some of the story arcs just weren't very good. The back-and-forth with Daredevil & Elektra, the repetitive ninja fights, the Black Sky... didn't sit well with me.

And then there were the plot-holes. What was that giant pit for? Who was the Blacksmith? Who killed the DA, etc.?

There are questions that likely will be answered, yet haven't been answered that I wish were. What is Black Sky? How was Nobu revived? What's the story with those people being drained? What is Elektra's actual role?

Finally, how many times is Karen's life going to be threatened? Seriously.

The season had a lot of positives, but this is a "negatives" thread so I'll not get into that.
Blacksmith was the General (?) who had worked with Castle in the army and he was the same one who killed the D.A.

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I ask her during dinner, what's her top 3 favorite movies. If she doesn't list Star Wars as at least #2. I excuse myself to the bathroom and crawl out the window. :up:
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Old 07-30-2016, 03:11 PM   #100
TheVileOne
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Default Re: What did you not like about Daredevil Season 2? Spoilers Ahead

The giant pit was just one of those weird devices they introduced as a big deal but then never introduced again. I can only assume the aims of the pit won't completely be revealed until Defenders.

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