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Old 07-21-2016, 12:17 AM   #26
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After seeing the movie again...mostly feel the same. It's an ok movie with some flaws.

Had a lot of good things in there. Liked the overall style, visually was good (minus Doomsday), and did give some awesome Batman action scenes. Wonder Woman was a solid addition that didn't have too big a presence, but basically just enough.

There's some interesting possibilities with what they did with Batman. You almost have the potential for the Justice League movies to be a kind of redemption story for him. Clearly he's tossed the "no kill" rules out the window and has really gone to some dark places. It could be really interesting using Superman and then the Justice League to kind of pull Batman back a bit and get him back on the path he started on. Not to the point where he's kind of given up.

I still am not sold on this path for Superman. Didn't like how they tried to do both Batman v Superman and the Death of Superman. It's too soon! The DCCU hasn't earned the Death of Superman yet! You can't go from people burning Superman scarecrows to a planet in mourning. I feel like that's something you go for after Justice League 2 or something (not part 2, actually Justice League 2).

Not sure I like the route they've gone with his character in general. I get that it's tough to make Superman as normal an interesting character. It was like the challenge in making someone like Captain America an interesting character. But, I just don't like them turning him into Batman. Always dark, always brooding, maybe happy for 3 minutes of the movie. Nor do I necessarily like the possibility that they are setting up Injustice here. Let's really make it so Superman is so on the edge that if Lois dies....all of humanity gets to die. Her having a pulse is literally the only thing between peace and annihilation. Someone put Lois in a padded cell on a remote island! She must live no matter the cost!

But, it's not like the whole thing was bad either. I like the idea of this movie. That all the mess from Man of Steel leaving a ripple effect was good. Superman not approving of a Batman who has crossed the line is also good. Batman worrying about humanities safety (and being right) is good. A lot of the fight between them was good.

But then you have Luthor....I mean what the heck was that? Was this Jim Carrey's the Riddler who got taken into the future and put on a wig? This guy was utterly ridiculous. And I still think Doomsday looks like a worse version of the cave troll from LOTR.

I don't know. Maybe I'm too hard on this thing. But, I do hope Justice League turns out well and I'm excited to see Suicide Squad. Maybe this is the necessary evil of a movie that has to cram too much into a film to make the whole DC Universe work.

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Old 07-21-2016, 01:11 AM   #27
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I think that panel is a great example of why it was a mistake for Batfleck to be so nonchalant about casualties, be it death by proxy or not. It really is an important part of his mythology. I'm a big fan of BvS, I'm all for a mature, adult version of these characters, I'm all for putting them in no win situations and all that, but they are writers, they can come up with anything that they want to happen, they don't need to show him killing or blood spatter or somebody standing right next to an exploding truck. Batman is not a soldier, he's not contracted by any governing entity, and as that panel illustrates, the good cops in Gotham allow Batman to be Batman because he has a code, regardless of whether he's become more brutal or not. They still could have illustrated that Batman had become darker, more cynical, brutal, hopeless, all that, without him blasting people away (though I liked that he was lethal and used guns in the Knightmare scene).


Having said that, I'm willing to forgive it because I really like the story they're trying to tell
pretty much.
the most frustrating thing about all this is the fact that they could've easily told the exact same story without the killing.

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Old 07-21-2016, 01:46 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
After seeing the movie again...mostly feel the same. It's an ok movie with some flaws.

Had a lot of good things in there. Liked the overall style, visually was good (minus Doomsday), and did give some awesome Batman action scenes. Wonder Woman was a solid addition that didn't have too big a presence, but basically just enough.

There's some interesting possibilities with what they did with Batman. You almost have the potential for the Justice League movies to be a kind of redemption story for him. Clearly he's tossed the "no kill" rules out the window and has really gone to some dark places. It could be really interesting using Superman and then the Justice League to kind of pull Batman back a bit and get him back on the path he started on. Not to the point where he's kind of given up.

I still am not sold on this path for Superman. Didn't like how they tried to do both Batman v Superman and the Death of Superman. It's too soon! The DCCU hasn't earned the Death of Superman yet! You can't go from people burning Superman scarecrows to a planet in mourning. I feel like that's something you go for after Justice League 2 or something (not part 2, actually Justice League 2).

Not sure I like the route they've gone with his character in general. I get that it's tough to make Superman as normal an interesting character. It was like the challenge in making someone like Captain America an interesting character. But, I just don't like them turning him into Batman. Always dark, always brooding, maybe happy for 3 minutes of the movie. Nor do I necessarily like the possibility that they are setting up Injustice here. Let's really make it so Superman is so on the edge that if Lois dies....all of humanity gets to die. Her having a pulse is literally the only thing between peace and annihilation. Someone put Lois in a padded cell on a remote island! She must live no matter the cost!

But, it's not like the whole thing was bad either. I like the idea of this movie. That all the mess from Man of Steel leaving a ripple effect was good. Superman not approving of a Batman who has crossed the line is also good. Batman worrying about humanities safety (and being right) is good. A lot of the fight between them was good.

But then you have Luthor....I mean what the heck was that? Was this Jim Carrey's the Riddler who got taken into the future and put on a wig? This guy was utterly ridiculous. And I still think Doomsday looks like a worse version of the cave troll from LOTR.

I don't know. Maybe I'm too hard on this thing. But, I do hope Justice League turns out well and I'm excited to see Suicide Squad. Maybe this is the necessary evil of a movie that has to cram too much into a film to make the whole DC Universe work.
I may not agree with you on everything, but I respect this kind of post. That said, I don't think it's too soon for death of superman. Actually, to me it was more powerful because in this instance, he wasn't universally loved or accepter, making his sacrifice more powerful and his arc complete. The guy went at it after being rejected for months even though all he did was help people.

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Old 07-21-2016, 02:22 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
After seeing the movie again...mostly feel the same. It's an ok movie with some flaws.

Had a lot of good things in there. Liked the overall style, visually was good (minus Doomsday), and did give some awesome Batman action scenes. Wonder Woman was a solid addition that didn't have too big a presence, but basically just enough.

There's some interesting possibilities with what they did with Batman. You almost have the potential for the Justice League movies to be a kind of redemption story for him. Clearly he's tossed the "no kill" rules out the window and has really gone to some dark places. It could be really interesting using Superman and then the Justice League to kind of pull Batman back a bit and get him back on the path he started on. Not to the point where he's kind of given up.

I still am not sold on this path for Superman. Didn't like how they tried to do both Batman v Superman and the Death of Superman. It's too soon! The DCCU hasn't earned the Death of Superman yet! You can't go from people burning Superman scarecrows to a planet in mourning. I feel like that's something you go for after Justice League 2 or something (not part 2, actually Justice League 2).

Not sure I like the route they've gone with his character in general. I get that it's tough to make Superman as normal an interesting character. It was like the challenge in making someone like Captain America an interesting character. But, I just don't like them turning him into Batman. Always dark, always brooding, maybe happy for 3 minutes of the movie. Nor do I necessarily like the possibility that they are setting up Injustice here. Let's really make it so Superman is so on the edge that if Lois dies....all of humanity gets to die. Her having a pulse is literally the only thing between peace and annihilation. Someone put Lois in a padded cell on a remote island! She must live no matter the cost!

But, it's not like the whole thing was bad either. I like the idea of this movie. That all the mess from Man of Steel leaving a ripple effect was good. Superman not approving of a Batman who has crossed the line is also good. Batman worrying about humanities safety (and being right) is good. A lot of the fight between them was good.

But then you have Luthor....I mean what the heck was that? Was this Jim Carrey's the Riddler who got taken into the future and put on a wig? This guy was utterly ridiculous. And I still think Doomsday looks like a worse version of the cave troll from LOTR.

I don't know. Maybe I'm too hard on this thing. But, I do hope Justice League turns out well and I'm excited to see Suicide Squad. Maybe this is the necessary evil of a movie that has to cram too much into a film to make the whole DC Universe work.
I agree with most of this. I gave the theatrical version of the film a 7 to 7.5 out of ten. I thought it was a decent CBM that works well in some areas and underwhelms in others.

I'm still amazed at the rotten tomatoes score. I went to see the film with an open mind but knew it could be worse than Green Lantern, GhostRider, X-men Origins Wolverine and , Fantastic Four 1 and 2. It's nowhere near as bad as those films.

I think some of the low scores are attributed to Synder making a film that most people weren't prepared to see. I will admit that I wasn't ready to see this story line either.
I initially didn't want to see this version of Batman but, learned to accept it because it makes sense with storyline.

My biggest complaint in the film is Lex Luthor's personality. I could somewhat except the logistics of how he carried out his plan but, it was pretty hard to over look how Jesse Eisenberg portrayed the character.

I could post a full review and spend hours defending what I don't perceive as plot holes but, don't have the time nor the energy to do this. All I can say is we have a lot to look forward if this is the worst film in the DC comic book universe.

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Old 07-21-2016, 02:28 AM   #30
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I may not agree with you on everything, but I respect this kind of post. That said, I don't think it's too soon for death of superman. Actually, to me it was more powerful because in this instance, he wasn't universally loved or accepter, making his sacrifice more powerful and his arc complete. The guy went at it after being rejected for months even though all he did was help people.
No worries. I would fully expect some to disagree with me on all points . Thought this was a good time after seeing the movie again to work through my thoughts on the film.

I can see that side of it too. In some ways I can see how the death might be fitting here. In a world that was so utterly dark and frankly mean-spirited the death of Superman might be the slap that entire world needed. The only way the world could become accepting of Superman being to lose him once.

Of course I still would have wanted to save it for later and I wouldn't have had the world being filled with such jerks in this movie. Then you wouldn't need to kill him off to get the world to smarten up and accept heroes. You could have Doomsday be the big threat in a much later event. Have the Justice League throwing everything at this guy (who wouldn't look so bad) and have a much grander impact on the people we actually care about. Not the nameless crowds that didn't like Superman, but his friends and comrades.

In some ways I think my feelings on that death was that it was too early and too obvious that he wasn't staying dead. The guy was set to be in the Justice League movie...of course he's coming back. The emotional impact on the world in the movie is fine, but I didn't feel the impact for the audience.
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I agree with most of this. I gave the theatrical version of the film a 7 to 7.5 out of ten. I thought it was a decent CBM that works well in some areas and underwhelms in others.

I'm still amazed at the rotten tomatoes score. I went to see the film with an open mind but knew it could be worse than Green Lantern, GhostRider, X-men Origins Wolverine and , Fantastic Four 1 and 2. It's nowhere near as bad as those films.

I think some of the low scores are attributed to Synder making a film that most people weren't prepared to see. I will admit that I wasn't ready to see this story line either.
I initially didn't want to see this version of Batman but, learned to accept it because it makes sense with storyline.

My biggest complaint in the film is Lex Luthor's personality. I could somewhat except the logistics of how he carried out his plan but, it was pretty hard to over look how Jesse Eisenberg portrayed the character.

I could post a full review and spend hours defending what I don't perceive as plot holes but, don't have the time nor the energy to do this. All I can say is we have a lot to look forward if this is the worst film in the DC comic book universe.
I think a 7/10 is honestly fair. I wouldn't give it lower than that. I think there are issues, but there is good things in there too. It's definitely not as bad as some of the ugly super hero movies we've seen over the years.

Probably a lot of the low scores comes from the fact that it was Batman v Superman and those two characters mean so much that just an ok movie wasn't enough.

With Batman I think this could turn out well. Already kind of seeing him turn a corner with choosing not to brand Luthor. So could be an interesting path for him coming back from the brink to the Batman people love seeing.

Fingers crossed moving forward for the DC films. If they don't take the wrong lessons from Batman v Superman they should be fine.


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Old 07-21-2016, 04:32 AM   #31
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I think a 7/10 is honestly fair. I wouldn't give it lower than that. I think there are issues, but there is good things in there too. It's definitely not as bad as some of the ugly super hero movies we've seen over the years.

Probably a lot of the low scores comes from the fact that it was Batman v Superman and those two characters mean so much that just an ok movie wasn't enough.
Agreed.As you can see from my sig,I liked the movie.But it wasnt without its flaws.But for the UC smoothened a lot of them out.

But when I went to watch the TC,I had heard the RT score made some forums have a meltdown,and i didnt know what the score was.I assumed it would be something like Watchmen or MOS,somewhere in the 50s or 60s.I liked those movies so I expected to like this too.

I came out of the hall speechless and very pleased.I had seen better movies but I have also seen far worse.For me it was a good(8/10) movie.I was shocked to see it get 29% in RT,absolutely shocked.Kind of lost my faith in critics then.

The reasons you mentioned are quite valid,there's this internet culture where something is either THE BEST or the WORST.I find it very hard to understand how anyone could give this movie anything less than a 6.But then again,its all subjective eh?

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Old 07-21-2016, 07:52 AM   #32
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Yea these guys aren't biased


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Old 07-21-2016, 07:54 AM   #33
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Because making a joke about a series you don't like clearly means you're biased.

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Old 07-21-2016, 07:58 AM   #34
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Yea these guys aren't biased

Come on the man's allowed an opinion.

But anyway, it's awesome that the statue is there! Although they should have went the extra mile and had it broken down with flowers and the "seek his monument" sprayed on there.

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Old 07-21-2016, 08:18 AM   #35
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Because making a joke about a series you don't like clearly means you're biased.
He's one of a few who have whined about not being a "DC hater"

Its ok if he doesn't like something. Thats cool. The fact he keeps bringing it up or taking a shot any time reeks of fanboy mentality. Making things you don't like....seem worse than they really are.

If I think something sucks I'm not going to give a crap about it or keep bringing it up.

If he never whined about people getting on him about it I probably wouldn't care. But oh well.

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Old 07-21-2016, 08:49 AM   #36
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Deadstroke, that just looks like an attempt to stir up a fan war argument. What relevance does that tweet have to BvS discussion?

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Old 07-21-2016, 08:52 AM   #37
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Regarding the Death of Superman, I thought it made a lot of sense to do in this film, and with (a good portion of) the world turning against him, especially considering the Christ parallels.

Superman has ALWAYS been heavy on the Messianic, and Moses, parallels and themes. I'm not a fan of the overly heavy handed stuff, like the floating Christ poses, and the MOS scene in the church, with a stained glass image of the exact moment in the new testament that they were mirroring, sitting over Clark's head; However, I still like the general literary, and mythical, parallels used as story elements.

Having the world turn against him, and that be when he makes his sacrifice, is perfect.

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Old 07-21-2016, 09:33 AM   #38
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Regarding the Death of Superman, I thought it made a lot of sense to do in this film, and with (a good portion of) the world turning against him, especially considering the Christ parallels.

Superman has ALWAYS been heavy on the Messianic, and Moses, parallels and themes. I'm not a fan of the overly heavy handed stuff, like the floating Christ poses, and the MOS scene in the church, with a stained glass image of the exact moment in the new testament that they were mirroring, sitting over Clark's head; However, I still like the general literary, and mythical, parallels used as story elements.

Having the world turn against him, and that be when he makes his sacrifice, is perfect.


Yeah when I first saw Doomsday (what I assumed to be DD at least, cause they could have made more of an attempt at a comic accurate version) I was like "Nah, it's too early for that." But I feel like it works in the context of Superman's journey, specifically the arc of him gaining humanity's trust (though, ideally for me, they would have extended BvS into two films so we could have had a more impactful, epic, and faithful adaptation of Death Of Superman). Like, I think their fight should have ended at dawn (of course) so they're fighting in the day time in front of the city, Superman stabs him, gets stabbed, breaks off the spear, and the two slug it out with everything they've got, like in the comic, ending with as close as they can get to that panel of the two's final blow, which sends a shock wave out, and the two collapse.



While heavy handed, the Jesus symbolism works I think, because for us comic nerds, we already know about those parallels, but the general population who doesn't think very often about Superman, just sees him as a super powered hero Boy Scout in a cape, silly stuff for kids, so they could see that Jesus imagery and be like "Oh, wow, I've never really considered Superman in that context of a savior/messiah figure, but it makes sense because he is a character meant to inspire us. That makes me a lot more interested in this character." Or at least, that's the idea


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Old 07-21-2016, 09:36 AM   #39
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Also, I'm kind of happy that they got the "Death of Superman" story out of their system and we wont have to worry about them doing that in future movies. Future movies can just focus on Superman doing Superman things.

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Old 07-21-2016, 11:15 AM   #40
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Also, I'm kind of happy that they got the "Death of Superman" story out of their system and we wont have to worry about them doing that in future movies. Future movies can just focus on Superman doing Superman things.
Yeah, I am SO sick of hearing about WB trying to cram the Death (AND Return) of Superman into a film.

Having the Death be at the end of a film like this, rather than the driving narrative of an entire feature, AND cram his resurrection, is much better. Now his resurrection can be given proper attention. Of course, they're probably going to just rush over it in the JL films now.

I'm kinda liking the idea now, of them having done BvS as 2 films. Just not to sure how you would do that best.
Do you have the first film cover right up to the resolution of their fight? Or bring them right to where they're about to fight, then save the titular battle for the first act of the second movie? That would probably allow for a better flow for handling the DD battle; rather than ending AFTER the titular fight, and picking up with Act one almost jumping right into the DD fight.

Of course, ending part one without even having the title characters fight? That would have pissed off EVERYONE. You'd probably need to make more of an initial confrontation out of the "The Bat is dead." scene. Have that be their round 1, with Bruce being truly out matched.
That could then send Bruce into overdrive, getting the Kryptonite, finishing the armor, etc.

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Old 07-21-2016, 12:34 PM   #41
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The problem that I had with doing DOS so quickly is that, Superman isn't even really established yet. It worked in the comics because he was a long-established beloved figure who's death signaled something. Here, he's a best a controversial figure (both in-universe and amongst the general audience) who's just getting started. It blunts a lot of the impact for me.

Also as HT pointed out, you basically tried to cram it into a movie that already has so much else going on in it. And, much like them trying to cram the Dark Phoenix Saga into X3, such an iconic and important story doesn't get the attention that it deserves. It didn't deserve to just be crammed into the last 10-15 minutes of the movie. Plus, I still think that that whole sequence was poorly-executed/structured anyway.

As for the Batman killing thing, yeah the fact that it's ultimately pretty pointless doesn't help to sell it for me. Because the movie doesn't ever treat it as the big proof of Batman's "fall." It's pretty much all about the branding, so even the "redemption" thing is iffy because the movie doesn't act like Batman killing people is something that he needs to "redeem" himself for. It's about the branding, and then trying to kill Superman.

So it's hard for me to believe that Snyder just didn't throw it in there to be "edgy" and "dark."

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Old 07-21-2016, 12:48 PM   #42
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The problem that I had with doing DOS so quickly is that, Superman isn't even really established yet. It worked in the comics because he was a long-established beloved figure who's death signaled something. Here, he's a best a controversial figure (both in-universe and amongst the general audience) who's just getting started. It blunts a lot of the impact for me.
Why does Superman have to be established in order to create an impact? In this story, he is, as you said, a "controversial figure," and the impact of his death comes from that dynamic. He was a figure of controversy because humanity believed him to be an all powerful being who is also capable of being selfish and capricious. His death undercuts the criticism. Superman's death officially establishes him as humanity's hero and a symbol of hope. The film presents the death of Superman is the catalyst for the dawn of justice.

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Old 07-21-2016, 01:09 PM   #43
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I really believe many critics would not be harsh on this film if there were moments of levity and a happy Superman. It did not have that "fun" factor that people hoped for a movie featuring three iconic superheroes. This film is disappointing in my opinion, but it should not be rated the same as Green Lantern, Catwoman, etc. This film is much better than Spiderman 3.

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Old 07-21-2016, 01:10 PM   #44
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Apart from the message it sends to the world,also his death serves as the turning point in Bruce's life,bringing him back from the darkness and inspiring him.

His death also leads to the formation of the Justice League,which is very beautiful.

And most importantly,his death and resurrection will bring a change in him as he grows further and that will be very fulfilling to see.

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Old 07-21-2016, 01:34 PM   #45
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Apart from the message it sends to the world,also his death serves as the turning point in Bruce's life,bringing him back from the darkness and inspiring him.

His death also leads to the formation of the Justice League,which is very beautiful.

And most importantly,his death and resurrection will bring a change in him as he grows further and that will be very fulfilling to see.
The issue is that none of it should have had to be triggered by this. The movie forced it in where it had no place and tried to pretend it did by piling this onto it. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

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Old 07-21-2016, 01:49 PM   #46
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Yeah, I am SO sick of hearing about WB trying to cram the Death (AND Return) of Superman into a film.

Having the Death be at the end of a film like this, rather than the driving narrative of an entire feature, AND cram his resurrection, is much better. Now his resurrection can be given proper attention. Of course, they're probably going to just rush over it in the JL films now.

I'm kinda liking the idea now, of them having done BvS as 2 films. Just not to sure how you would do that best.
Do you have the first film cover right up to the resolution of their fight? Or bring them right to where they're about to fight, then save the titular battle for the first act of the second movie? That would probably allow for a better flow for handling the DD battle; rather than ending AFTER the titular fight, and picking up with Act one almost jumping right into the DD fight.


Of course, ending part one without even having the title characters fight? That would have pissed off EVERYONE. You'd probably need to make more of an initial confrontation out of the "The Bat is dead." scene. Have that be their round 1, with Bruce being truly out matched.
That could then send Bruce into overdrive, getting the Kryptonite, finishing the armor, etc.


That's the thought that keeps me awake at night lol nah but I really have put some thought into it, and I gotta say, I appreciate how freakin hard it is to write a Superman movie in this grounded, realistic setting where he's not just punching a monster or some aliens.


You'd have to change a lot, if you're gonna make it into two blockbusters that are going to draw a crowd. I was thinking maybe change the title so it's not Batman V Superman anymore, and the first one is kinda building their conflict, maybe change the subplots around so it focuses on both Batman and Superman's relationship to the public, like Luthor is orchestrating and escalating some foreign conflict that Superman is involved with, and hires an assassin/Bat villain (Deathstroke maybe) to slander Batman's name, by executing people and framing Batman (in this version, Bats wouldn't be so prone to killing, but Snyder still gets to show the killing). The two plot lines converge, but you only get one real confrontation between Superman and Batman, a little more fleshed out version of the "Do you bleed?" scene. You get some good mystery in there, with both Batman and Clark Kent investigations, some good James Bond spy action, ending with an epic action set piece with Batman vs Deathstroke, as well as some kind of epic Superman action.


Edit: I missed in your post when you said make more of an initial confrontation out of the "Bat is dead" scene, but yeah, I was thinking along exactly the same lines.

But the first movie really serves to highlight the major differences in Batman and Superman, and raise both characters suspicion of one another, some good Lois and Clark, some good insight into Bruce and Alfred, maybe some added scenes showing different civilians and the impact these two "heroes" have on their lives (which I always find to be really fascinating storylines in the comics). You'd have to make the two major storylines feel thematically cohesive, or else people would complain that it felt like two different movies.


Incorporate little tidbits of the Knightmare Future into the first movie more fluidly, so that its apparent to the audience (and to Bruce, though he has trouble remembering it exactly, like after you wake up from a dream, it starts to slip away) that this is a possible future. The movie ends with public perception of Superman at a low point, Senator Finch calling him to stand in front of congress, Bruce Wayne ominously getting his hands on the Kryptonite. End the movie on either a big cliffhanger scene, or a positive, hopeful scene, like Superman making a connection with a young kid or something, but those are the final two scenes, in whichever order works best.



Start Part II off with the full Knightmare sequence, and after that is when Bruce decides that he must stop Superman. Build up to the fight, make the fight more epic and drawn out, rearrange some things so the motivations and the resolution are a little more fleshed out and acceptable by the General Audience's standards (like Superman is trying to take Batman in for murder (due to Deathstroke's framing) or maybe Luthor had also been drugging Bruce somehow with a variation of Scarecrow's fear toxin for some time, maybe the pills he takes to help sleep, just enough to amp up his paranoia and irrational behavior, cloud his thinking). The Martha moment plays out a little better.

Alfred or Lois alerts them that Doomsday is on a rampage in a neighboring small town away from Metropolis. Superman is still weak from the Kryptonite, so he flies and crashes but pushes through it while Batman goes to save Martha. One of the civilian characters from part 1 (like the teen in Death Of Superman) and his family are about to get it, when Superman appears out of nowhere to make the save.


Epic Doomsday battle/warehouse rescue ensues (btw, smaller Doomsday with spikes, spike beard and grey hair). Nuke scene, but Superman falls to Earth this time (you'll see why in a second), Batman lures Doomsday, "Oh S***", Wonder Woman rescue (except THIS TIME, they don't completely ruin it in the trailers!!!)


Superman is lying in a crater where he fell to Earth, the sun is rising over the horizon (Dawn Of Justice), his eyes open. During this battle, Superman has kept DD to remote locations, prevented collateral damage, saved civilians, but the fight makes it's way to Metropolis, the Trinity is doing their best, Superman gets the spear into DD and gets stabbed (Zod/Jor El parallel), he's finished, but the spear breaks off in DD, and Supetman uses everything he's got left in the tank, the two slug it out, in Metropolis, in the daytime, every punch creating a shockwave (I suppose during this time, Batman can just watch, or he and WW are busy saving some civilians from a catastrophe, but Batman watching the fight, with this newfound respect for Superman, parallels when he watched the Zod battle with fear and anger) BAM! As close as they can get to the final panels of Death, DD drops dead, Superman falls, Lois holds him in her arms as he says something meaningful before dying.


Funeral


Dirt rises paralleling the "Everything falls" falling Bruce, falling pearls at the beginning.


End of the "Man Of Steel trilogy" leading into Justice League, but with Supe's death having a much larger impact on the DC world and the General Audience.


Last edited by wnjcwjkk; 07-21-2016 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 07-21-2016, 01:51 PM   #47
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Default Re: All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - Par

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The issue is that none of it should have had to be triggered by this. The movie forced it in where it had no place and tried to pretend it did by piling this onto it.
None of what? Public redemption and the rekindling of hope shouldn't be triggered by heroic and selfless sacrifice? The film told a story about how a rich and powerful man manipulated broken and scared people to fear and hate a good man. There isn't a place for this story? It is "pretend" that insecurity combined with power can create a cycle of violence that can only be stopped with a selfless act? It is "pretend" that such sacrifice can change minds and inspire hope in a cynical world?

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Old 07-21-2016, 02:17 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by wnjcwjkk View Post
That's the thought that keeps me awake at night lol nah but I really have put some thought into it, and I gotta say, I appreciate how freakin hard it is to write a Superman movie in this grounded, realistic setting where he's not just punching a monster or some aliens.


You'd have to change a lot, if you're gonna make it into two blockbusters that are going to draw a crowd. I was thinking maybe change the title so it's not Batman V Superman anymore, and the first one is kinda building their conflict, maybe change the subplots around so it focuses on both Batman and Superman's relationship to the public, like Luthor is orchestrating and escalating some foreign conflict that Superman is involved with, and hires an assassin/Bat villain (Deathstroke maybe) to slander Batman's name, by executing people and framing Batman (in this version, Bats wouldn't be so prone to killing, but Snyder still gets to show the killing). The two plot lines converge, but you only get one real confrontation between Superman and Batman, a little more fleshed out version of the "Do you bleed?" scene. You get some good mystery in there, with both Batman and Clark Kent investigations, some good James Bond spy action, ending with an epic action set piece with Batman vs Deathstroke, as well as some kind of epic Superman action.


But the first movie really serves to highlight the major differences in Batman and Superman, and raise both characters suspicion of one another, some good Lois and Clark, some good insight into Bruce and Alfred, maybe some added scenes showing different civilians and the impact these two "heroes" have on their lives (which I always find to be really fascinating storylines in the comics). You'd have to make the two major storylines feel thematically cohesive, or else people would complain that it felt like two different movies.


Incorporate little tidbits of the Knightmare Future into the first movie more fluidly, so that its apparent to the audience (and to Bruce, though he has trouble remembering it exactly, like after you wake up from a dream, it starts to slip away) that this is a possible future. The movie ends with public perception of Superman at a low point, Senator Finch calling him to stand in front of congress, Bruce Wayne ominously getting his hands on the Kryptonite. End the movie on either a big cliffhanger scene, or a positive, hopeful scene, like Superman making a connection with a young kid or something, but those are the final two scenes, in whichever order works best.



Start Part II off with the full Knightmare sequence, and after that is when Bruce decides that he must stop Superman. Build up to the fight, make the fight more epic and drawn out, rearrange some things so the motivations and the resolution are a little more fleshed out and acceptable by the General Audience's standards (like Superman is trying to take Batman in for murder (due to Deathstroke's framing) or maybe Luthor had also been drugging Bruce somehow with a variation of Scarecrow's fear toxin for some time, maybe the pills he takes to help sleep, just enough to amp up his paranoia and irrational behavior, cloud his thinking). The Martha moment plays out a little better.

Alfred or Lois alerts them that Doomsday is on a rampage in a neighboring small town away from Metropolis. Superman is still weak from the Kryptonite, so he flies and crashes but pushes through it while Batman goes to save Martha. One of the civilian characters from part 1 (like the teen in Death Of Superman) and his family are about to get it, when Superman appears out of nowhere to make the save.


Epic Doomsday battle/warehouse rescue ensues (btw, smaller Doomsday with spikes, spike beard and grey hair). Nuke scene, but Superman falls to Earth this time (you'll see why in a second), Batman lures Doomsday, "Oh S***", Wonder Woman rescue (except THIS TIME, they don't completely ruin it in the trailers!!!)


Superman is lying in a crater where he fell to Earth, the sun is rising over the horizon (Dawn Of Justice), his eyes open. During this battle, Superman has kept DD to remote locations, prevented collateral damage, saved civilians, but the fight makes it's way to Metropolis, the Trinity is doing their best, Superman gets the spear into DD and gets stabbed (Zod/Jor El parallel), he's finished, but the spear breaks off in DD, and Supetman uses everything he's got left in the tank, the two slug it out, in Metropolis, in the daytime, every punch creating a shockwave (I suppose during this time, Batman can just watch, or he and WW are busy saving some civilians from a catastrophe, but Batman watching the fight, with this newfound respect for Superman, parallels when he watched the Zod battle with fear and anger) BAM! As close as they can get to the final panels of Death, DD drops dead, Superman falls, Lois holds him in her arms as he says something meaningful before dying.


Funeral


Dirt rises paralleling the "Everything falls" falling Bruce, falling pearls at the beginning.


End of the "Man Of Steel trilogy" leading into Justice League, but with Supe's death having a much larger impact on the DC world and the General Audience.
There are some really nice ideas there. Especially with regards to DD sequence. Never realized this, but they completely removed any sense of real danger with all the "unpopulated" comments, and 'everyone's gone home for the day' stuff.

I understand the response to the backlash from the finale of MOS, but instead of "fixing" that by just writing ALL civilians out of the location, they should have done something like what you wrote.
Having to deal with DD making his way to a more populated area, having to actually deal with moving people out of harms way, rather than just saying they already were, etc.

Also, as you mentioned, turns the DD fight into something a bit more resembling the comics.

Also, on the fan re-writing note, someone at my work made a comment after seeing the UE that I thought could have been fantastic.

All but write Luthor out of the first 2 acts of the film. No mention of him in the marketing, etc. The audience goes in to the film with no indication that Luthor will even be in it.

The entire first near 2/3rds of the film is played just as Bruce, and Clark, moving closer to their head to head. Same investigations, etc.
Meanwhile, Lois is still investigating things, and through her we eventually learn that someone has been manipulating them from the start.
Only once they FINALLY come to blows, do we learn the truth, and the big reveal is that Luthor is not only in the movie, but is the puppet master behind it all.

Would have definitely had to have gone with a VERY different portrayal of Lex for this to work. You'd need something like Spacey in Seven. Damn, if it weren't for Superman Returns, Spacey would have been PERFECT in such a film.

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Old 07-21-2016, 02:42 PM   #49
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Those are some really nice ideas,and ofcourse with more time the movie could have been better(but then again,we can say that for many movies).

The thing is they probably had time/money constraints and wanted to get to JL faster,so they fastracked it.For better or worse.

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Old 07-21-2016, 02:57 PM   #50
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None of what? Public redemption and the rekindling of hope shouldn't be triggered by heroic and selfless sacrifice? The film told a story about how a rich and powerful man manipulated broken and scared people to fear and hate a good man. There isn't a place for this story? It is "pretend" that insecurity combined with power can create a cycle of violence that can only be stopped with a selfless act? It is "pretend" that such sacrifice can change minds and inspire hope in a cynical world?
His death shouldn't change Batman. His death shouldn't change him. And it shouldn't start the JL. But Lex didn't have to do anything to the public. There were those that feared and hated him already. Lex wasn't relevant. And no, I don't think hope can be found through Superman. He can reveal hope that's already there.

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