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Old 05-28-2018, 03:38 PM   #1
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Old 05-28-2018, 03:38 PM   #2
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Old 05-28-2018, 03:38 PM   #3
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Why would one ignore genocide and slavery when speaking about creating this nation, when they are fundamental to the nation's creation?

To play devil's advocate, why would one ignore the accomplishments, many of them arguably awe inspiring, of the U.S. and only focus on genocide and slavery when speaking about creating this nation either?


Both are an integral part of its history.

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Old 05-28-2018, 04:28 PM   #4
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To play devil's advocate, why would one ignore the accomplishments, many of them arguably awe inspiring, of the U.S. and only focus on genocide and slavery when speaking about creating this nation either?


Both are an integral part of its history.
One does not need to ignore accomplishments. It is a question if we are willing to be honest on what the accomplishments are, and how they came to be. There is a high level of ignore who and built this country. How it was built. Its like the Robert E. Lee argument. Trying to argue his statue does not represent racism, because he was a great military man, who supported his state and family. Even though he was a complete and total racist.

When one is arguing anyone "tamed" America, especially one who degrades minorities on the regular and argues there are plenty of good racist, his mind set is pretty apparent.

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Old 05-28-2018, 06:53 PM   #5
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Wait... Are we talking about Marv or Trump here cuz I feel Marv might be getting a raw deal?

I am not gonna say more than that.

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Old 05-28-2018, 08:10 PM   #6
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Not Marv, at least not me. I know Marv is good people.

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Old 05-28-2018, 08:59 PM   #7
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Still can’t believe Republicans are willing to give Cheetoh so many passes on how he disrespects the military just because he hugs the flag and calls people who exercise their first amendment rights “treasonous”.

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Old 05-28-2018, 09:28 PM   #8
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Wait... Are we talking about Marv or Trump here cuz I feel Marv might be getting a raw deal?

I am not gonna say more than that.

My original statement was made in response to responses to his post.


I thought he made a good point *shrug

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Old 05-28-2018, 09:32 PM   #9
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TMZ Goes MAGA: How Harvey Levin’s Gossip Empire Became Trump’s Best Friend

This corroborates Kathy Griffin's claim about Harvey Levin being a Trump supporter and supports TMZ's pro-Trump coverage.

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Old 05-28-2018, 09:59 PM   #10
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Still can’t believe Republicans are willing to give Cheetoh so many passes on how he disrespects the military just because he hugs the flag and calls people who exercise their first amendment rights “treasonous”.
They don't care about the military. They will endorse anything that "owns libs."

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Old 05-28-2018, 10:20 PM   #11
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TMZ Goes MAGA: How Harvey Levin’s Gossip Empire Became Trump’s Best Friend

This corroborates Kathy Griffin's claim about Harvey Levin being a Trump supporter and supports TMZ's pro-Trump coverage.
I have listened to KROQ's Kevin & Bean Morning Show when they had Harvey Levin on (TMZ has a weekly segment on their show). Levin basically said he once had a personal talk with Trump and afterward believed that Trump wasn't a bad guy despite how he is portrayed in the press, so this news about TMZ becoming a media supporter of Trump (like National Inquirer is) isn't a big surprise to me. I have no respect for men like Levin who chose to turn a blind eye to who Trump really is.

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Old 05-28-2018, 11:11 PM   #12
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I don't have respect for Harvey Levin period. And that was before he got on the Trump train. He comes off as a smug, sleazy, and grade-A suckup.

Perfect for Trump, actually.

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Old 05-28-2018, 11:22 PM   #13
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Wow, what a disgrace. Trump using the official @POTUS handle to hock his BS MAGA products on Memorial Day.

There are no words.

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Old 05-28-2018, 11:54 PM   #14
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To play devil's advocate, why would one ignore the accomplishments, many of them arguably awe inspiring, of the U.S. and only focus on genocide and slavery when speaking about creating this nation either?


Both are an integral part of its history.
Because even most of those achievements were at the expense of particular groups of people.

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Old 05-29-2018, 02:43 AM   #15
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Curiously every civilization currently flourishing unfortunately managed it at the expense of other people, but only the West is allowing a culture of collective guilt to silence them and give them pause about their own identity.

The Chinese, Russians, and Saudis don't seem to expect their current generation to pay for the sins of the fathers, they don't even expect their current generation to pay for their own sins, which makes me wonder why it's the polar opposite in the West where a glut of people insist on flagellating themselves for the wrongs committed by previous generations.

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Old 05-29-2018, 03:01 AM   #16
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Because even most of those achievements were at the expense of particular groups of people.

Absolutely, many achievements, possibly even all achievements, were/are built on the backs of disadvantaged people.


That's true in the U.S. and any other successful nation on the face of the earth since pretty much the dawn of history.



My point is that it is still possible to appreciate the achievements without losing track of what they really cost.


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Curiously every civilization currently flourishing unfortunately managed it at the expense of other people, but only the West is allowing a culture of collective guilt to silence them and give them pause about their own identity.

The Chinese, Russians, and Saudis don't seem to expect their current generation to pay for the sins of the fathers, they don't even expect their current generation to pay for their own sins, which makes me wonder why it's the polar opposite in the West where a glut of people insist on flagellating themselves for the wrongs committed by previous generations.


In my opinion it's because the "West" holds itself to a different set of ideals oftentimes.


EX:"All men are created equal."


The irony of those words being written/supported, in part, by men who owned slaves does not lessen the strength of the idea they are meant to represent to U.S. culture. When the ideal falters or fails then it's natural to be circumspect and saddened by the events that caused its failure, but that doesn't mean the ideal itself should be ignored.


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Old 05-29-2018, 06:50 AM   #17
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The West does, and should, but the bizarre part is the proverbial Western profeessive's reaction to the current political and social climate.

Instead of at least considering that Western society is by far the most progressive in the world, offering higher levels of happiness and safety for its citizens, the progressives seem to be lamenting the fact that the West isn't the perfect utopia they want it to be.

So while the likes of China and Russia are positioning themselves as the new leaders of the (for now) free world the West is busy being guilt tripped into sitting idly by and apologizing as infinitum for the mistakes of their ancestors. Even more immobilizing, there seems to be an impasse as to how to proceed, for how long must current Westerners be made to feel like villains for their inherited pasts until they're allowed to open their mouths on the world stage again?

A lot of progressives come across as immature children because they're unhappy their paradise doesn't exist, so they'll throw everything away because they can't have precisely what they want, wen they want it.

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Old 05-29-2018, 08:13 AM   #18
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I don't think China, Russia, and Saudi Arabia are really who we should look for moral examples.

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Old 05-29-2018, 08:38 AM   #19
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The West does, and should, but the bizarre part is the proverbial Western profeessive's reaction to the current political and social climate.

Instead of at least considering that Western society is by far the most progressive in the world, offering higher levels of happiness and safety for its citizens, the progressives seem to be lamenting the fact that the West isn't the perfect utopia they want it to be.

So while the likes of China and Russia are positioning themselves as the new leaders of the (for now) free world the West is busy being guilt tripped into sitting idly by and apologizing as infinitum for the mistakes of their ancestors. Even more immobilizing, there seems to be an impasse as to how to proceed, for how long must current Westerners be made to feel like villains for their inherited pasts until they're allowed to open their mouths on the world stage again?

A lot of progressives come across as immature children because they're unhappy their paradise doesn't exist, so they'll throw everything away because they can't have precisely what they want, wen they want it.
It is not for their past, but their current actions that certain people are being exposed for the villains they are. It is the idea that these things like racism, sexism, and bigotry are in the past that is rather immature. That one should just be happy because its better then other places, that is immature. Such thinking would have stopped every important movement we have ever seen in the west.

I also find it incredibly immature to argue that trying to prevent actual injustice, is somehow people crying about a lack of paradise. It is not calling for paradise to not want police to have free reign, that can result in the death of actual human beings. It is not calling for paradise to argue for women, the LGBT community, and minorities to not be treated like second class citizens.

It is a very easy concept. Those that do not look back at history, understand it, are doomed to repeat it. There is also the false idea that many, many problems, like racism are gone or simply never existed in the first place. This is exactly why a weapon of the right, not dissimilar to countries like Russia and China, is to lie about history. To change it. And I sure as hell don't want to live in that kind of society.

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Old 05-29-2018, 10:02 AM   #20
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Curiously every civilization currently flourishing unfortunately managed it at the expense of other people, but only the West is allowing a culture of collective guilt to silence them and give them pause about their own identity.

The Chinese, Russians, and Saudis don't seem to expect their current generation to pay for the sins of the fathers, they don't even expect their current generation to pay for their own sins, which makes me wonder why it's the polar opposite in the West where a glut of people insist on flagellating themselves for the wrongs committed by previous generations.
Because as much as we love to to pretend, much of those issues remain in the present.

Declaring hiw proud you ate of taming a continent" when Native populations continue to have the lowest standard of living and worst health outcomes is, yeah, not a great look.

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Old 05-29-2018, 10:27 AM   #21
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I don't think China, Russia, and Saudi Arabia are really who we should look for moral examples.
A more thoughtful analogy would be Germany or Japan. Or, i dunno, south africa?

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Old 05-29-2018, 10:32 AM   #22
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A more thoughtful analogy would be Germany or Japan. Or, i dunno, south africa?
"I'm dine apologizing for Germany" isn't something you'd ever hear Merkel say.

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Old 05-29-2018, 12:17 PM   #23
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A more thoughtful analogy would be Germany or Japan. Or, i dunno, south africa?
Not so much Japan, as they seem to be trying to ignore the atrocities they committed during WWII.

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Old 05-29-2018, 12:26 PM   #24
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Oh, Harvard released an estimate of how many died in Puerto Rico from Hurricane Maria.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ational&wpmk=1

4645 US Citizens dead. And the US government doesn't care. Especially important as we head into hurricane season again, as they still haven't recovered.

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Old 05-29-2018, 01:01 PM   #25
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I don't think China, Russia, and Saudi Arabia are really who we should look for moral examples.
That's precisely my point, in the absence of leadership or moral prescription from the West those nations become the de facto leaders of the free world by virtue of their economic clout. The USA is busy drifting from its allies due to Trump and Western Europe is falling apart at the seams, and those very nations who aren't moral examples climb in stature.

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It is not for their past, but their current actions that certain people are being exposed for the villains they are. It is the idea that these things like racism, sexism, and bigotry are in the past that is rather immature. That one should just be happy because its better then other places, that is immature. Such thinking would have stopped every important movement we have ever seen in the west.
Not exclusively, it's pretty clear from the majority of the posts in this topic that the West has a lot of atoning to do, according to some. Are things like racism, bigotry and sexism in the past? No. Are they the most pressing issues facing a country and do they require the borderline hysteria we see them discussed with? Probably also no.

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I also find it incredibly immature to argue that trying to prevent actual injustice, is somehow people crying about a lack of paradise. It is not calling for paradise to not want police to have free reign, that can result in the death of actual human beings. It is not calling for paradise to argue for women, the LGBT community, and minorities to not be treated like second class citizens.
You seem to be attaching meaning to my sentences I didn't communicate, my response was about 'civilizations attaining their current prosperity at the expense of others' - which is about history, I've said nothing about addressing current injustices. What I'm specifically referring to is this new trend of progressives from countries where things are going quite well (which simultaneously still have work to do) but who write their own nations off because of their past transgressions. Some in the US would say they have no right to be the leaders of the free world because of their own history, which is odd because our alternatives are nations like Russia or China which not only have exceptionally violent and oppressive histories, but also violent and oppressive presents.


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It is a very easy concept. Those that do not look back at history, understand it, are doomed to repeat it. There is also the false idea that many, many problems, like racism are gone or simply never existed in the first place. This is exactly why a weapon of the right, not dissimilar to countries like Russia and China, is to lie about history. To change it. And I sure as hell don't want to live in that kind of society.
That's nice and poetic and everything, but I never said anything about racism or sexism being 'gone', so I'm not sure why you've brought it up twice. In fact, most of your post proves how far ahead the US is in terms of ethics and morals and why it deserves to be a moral compass for the rest of the world because we're even having this conversation. Is reparation a conversation in Russia for the ethnic groups they've suppressed? Is it a conversation in China for their gross human rights abuses or genocides from the past?

The West is morally superior to most other countries because they're addressing the issue. My point about people whining about not having created a utopia is that entitled armchair progressives want to pretend the USA is this racist monster, when in reality they're just addressing the problem more slowly than the very impatient progressives want them to.

It's just fascinating to see this histrionic 'the sky is falling' approach from Westerners who have absolutely no clue how good they have it, and just once more for the cheap seats because someone will definitely quote this post, I'm not saying the West doesn't have strides to make. It's just not this prejudiced den of evil I seem to see a lot of ashamed Westerners claim it is.

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